Witness Wednesday - Al Tapken - From Atheist To Believer

A lot of people don’t reject God because they’ve studied Him carefully, they reject a version of faith they were never truly taught. That’s why Al Tapkin’s story hit us so hard. He grew up around competing religious labels, found identity in sports and science, and carried a confident, practical worldview into adulthood. Then real life caught up: bar culture, a DUI, a demanding flying career, and a marriage slowly starved of time, attention, and truth.

We walk through how God used a timely conversation with a pastor, persistent friendships, and a year-long commitment to read the Bible cover to cover to break through Al’s resistance. He doesn’t describe a quick emotional moment; he describes a long, honest wrestling match with Scripture, doubt, evolution, and the reality of sin. Along the way we talk about apologetics in plain language, why “trying to disprove it” can be its own kind of searching, and what repentance looks like when it starts showing up in everyday habits, words, and priorities.

The story doesn’t skip the hard parts. We talk about divorce, the weight of consequences, grief in the family, and the jolt of hearing “I have cancer” only months later. And we also talk about redemption, including how church community stepped in and why it’s never too late for God’s mercy to reach someone. We end with practical, relatable evangelism: asking a server how we can pray, tipping generously, building real relationships, and using thoughtful questions instead of trying to win arguments.

If you care about Christian testimony, coming to faith, evangelism, prayer, and living with integrity when nobody’s watching, this conversation will encourage you and challenge you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review so more people can find it. What part of Al’s story felt most familiar to you?

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Well, what's up, Life House family? Welcome back to the Life Talk Podcast. This is Nate coming to you today. Always a joy to be podcasting, and we do truly, I say it every time, but really appreciate you taking the time. We always do this podcast with a heart to encourage you, to help you grow in your faith, to share great things. And so I'm excited to be bringing another Wednesday witnessing episode to you. Opportunities to stay true to our roots. We started the Life Talk podcast to share stories, to help Lifehouse get to know Lifehouse. And so today I am joined by a super special guest, my good brother. I call him the great Al Tapkin. Al, what is going on today? How are you doing? Doing fine. Good, man. First time podcasting, right? So got the headphones on and the microphone in the face, feeling good.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I'll get this figured out.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Okay. I didn't turn the heat lamp up too hot on you, did I? Not yet. Not yet. So well, man, Al, I appreciate you taking some time. I know I know a little bit of your story and just incredible what you shared with me, but uh just looking forward to sharing that with the Lifehouse family. And so I know you are a deacon here, have been at Lifehouse how long now?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Ten years. I'll tell you what, we were here on the four-year anniversary. It was our first time here.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Okay. So yeah, right about 10 years. Awesome. And so anybody might remember Tapkin might sound familiar if you've been following with us. In August, Al's Better Half Judy was on talking about prayer. So if you have not heard Judy's brief testimony and her encouragement on prayer, I highly encourage you to go back in the archives and check that out. But but Judy shared her story, so I was like, well, you know, we got to be equal opportunity within the marriage relationship here. But uh but Al, man, just start from the beginning where how you grew up and your early years and where it all started for.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Born in South Jersey, Ake Harbor area. Actually, it was Ake Harbor Township, but there's Ake Harbor City, Ake Harbor Township, and and yeah, it's a bunch of Ek Harbors. Yeah, born there, uh was spent my life there basically until 60, about 60, because I'm 69 now, so 59 years old is when I came to Delaware. Oh, okay. So I've been in Jersey all that time, and yeah, grew up with uh mom and a dad that were loving. My dad died at eight, eight years old. Oh, okay. A couple years, I guess several years later, my mom remarried. Great guy, and that I can't complain about my my stepfather. Uh he was very religious in the way of of Catholic. He was a Catholic, uh, he went to you know to to church every Sunday, Roman Catholic Church, where I believe they didn't speak anything but the Roman Latin kind of services. Yeah. So we never went to church with him. It was that was his thing. That was he did. My mom was Jewish, so that made it interesting. Early on before my dad died, we used to go to Cardiff Baptist Church. See, my mom would take, or my mom or dad would take us there. But yeah, we'd come home with questions that that mom wouldn't answer or couldn't answer, and dad wouldn't answer. So eventually that sort of you know sent us away from the church. Uh after my dad died, we went to went to the synagogue. And I was our mitzvah. Again, not having any idea what I was saying as I was going through it. It's a cantar, you actually sing your sort of like the service. And I had no idea what I was singing, but there I was, and and you know, everybody came to the big party in Atlantic City, and we had yeah, it was it was a thing. But didn't I I don't remember going back to the synagogue after I was baptized for Mitswood. So your mom was not staunchly Jewish, just because culturally or yeah, I think I think most Jews are cultural Jews. I really do believe that. I don't see too much of you know unless they're wearing the Hazdaic Jews with the with the you know the Amakon and all that stuff all the time. I don't see much of that. What I see is in fact most of my family is like you said, they're they're creasers in the in the uh in the Hebrew way. I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

So kind of Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, you grew up with a lot of influences. I had nothing at all. All three in the hidden.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

And they they all kept telling me that uh, well, you pick what you want, which is kind of not the way you raise your kids. But I mean, I didn't I don't think any of it's really turned out really bad. My I have a sister that's a black sheep, and you know, she ended up dying from a lot of the things she did early on. Uh my older sister is uh she's very how do you say religious, but not religious. She's she goes through the motions. You can tell when she prays, it's going through the motions. It's not it's like there's nobody there, but I have to say these words. So that's that's what I've seen out of the uh the results of those uh influences on the family.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And unfortunately, we hear so much of that, you know, parents who want to, well, we just want them to find their own way. Yep, that's not a that's not a good way. So how did that play out then? So did you go to college?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

How did that play out into your not much of anything at that point? I'll tell you baseball was the only thing that kept me sane because I mean I was I was pretty good pitching and playing ball was that was my sort of escape because uh I was with three girls and the lone boy, and yeah, we weren't very well off. I mean, we were pretty yeah until stepfather came along, we were pretty poor because mom was by herself and not much of an income, yeah, very, very little income. Depended on things like hand-me-downs from my cousin and you know clothes and stuff like that. But yeah, it was it was kind of tough sometimes, and baseball was my out. That was my way of kept that right through to high school, never took it any further, but right through to high school.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

So that that was what position were pitching.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Okay, sure. Okay, but no college scholarship, no, no, no, I wasn't that okay. I threw hard, but I wasn't cool. So no, for me it was football, gave me you know, kind of something that gave me some identity. Yep, you know, some of that to pour yourself into. That's exactly the way I looked at it too. So kind of finishing up high school, you know, really again, no religious backgrounds.

Science Training And Evolution Confidence

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Nope, I had nothing in religion. Uh I did book reports on uh what's the name? William Channing, was it? Book reports on on atheists and you know that kind of stuff. And kind of exploring that. Yeah, well, I didn't really explore much of anything. I just sort of went along for the ride. In fact, I remember in my yearbook I said some about I'm uncomfortable around gods. I don't know how I said it now. I'm trying to think of how I said that. But yeah, it doesn't matter. But anyway, it was it was the idea was that God's gods in floral. I never had any religious thought at that point. I don't believe I had any religious thought at all. Yeah, we we were convinced, you know, high school uh biology and sciences were my forte. I was strong in math and science. I had the second I had the highest uh math score in the SATs in our class. English not so much. But yeah, that's science was really big for me. So when you know evolution is a a thing that was really it was drilled into me all through not just not just middle school, but high school, it was really drilled in. I mean, that's that's like I said before, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. That's you know, that's the kind of thing they were they were pushing. And it was, you know, the heckels diagrams were all the ones looked this all the beginning stages of life all look almost the same because they were trying to say that that they were they really don't look the same, by the way. But they were saying that they looked the same because he faked the diagrams. He drew diagrams that were just he did it, you know, this Heckel guy did these things to try to convince people that evolution was real. And you know, that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, the the stuff that that starts the embryos go on to become uh other things because the embryos are so much alike.

Bar Life To Aviation Career

SPEAKER_01 8:18

So that's kind of where you're at. So did you go to college? Uh yes, I did.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

It took I went for elect went to school for electronics. Okay. Yeah, that's how I got started, and then I learned how to ski. That became the end of my good college years because I was straight A's up until that last semester I learned how to ski. Went skiing, and that was the end of it. That's all I wanted to do was go skiing. So school suffered tremendously because how to get to the mountains. Okay. Where were you going to school at? At the time it was uh Atlanta Community College. Okay. Just for a two-year degree. And it was in electronics, like I said, and yeah, I was figured I'd start working on different things. I've I've you know designed things uh for in fact I designed a box that you you flash a light on and it would turn switches on.

unknown 9:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

So I put outlets on both sides, you could plug something into it, and you just flash a light at it and it would turn the things on. You flash it again, it turns it off. Yeah, it had a couple different things in it, and the you know, the box was it was a little black box that did things.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Oh, nice.

Marriage Neglect And Consequences

A Pastor’s Challenge And A Plan

Surrendering To Christ And Changing

SPEAKER_02 9:16

So yeah, so but that's all I got out of it. I didn't never went, I never pursued anything from it. I ended up tending bar. Okay. And that's so bar and skiing. That was the kind of life. That was the kind of life for quite a while. Um once I finished the four-year ACC Atlanta Community College. That was the bar, bar life was it for a long time until somebody came in, and it was a couple came in with another person, and they they came into the bar. There's it was a Sunday morning, late morning, and nobody was there except for them. And we started talking about different things. We started comparing notes and skiing. I jumped out of an airplane, I did this, I did that, they did this, they you know, different things. Well, did you ever fly an airplane? I said, No, I've never done that. He says, So go over to Ocean City Airport and talk to this guy, Dick Wadsworth. So I said, okay, and then next day, Monday, I was on my way, and that was it. I I took like an introductory flight and never looked back. It was three times a week. As much as I could, as much as I had money in my pocket, it was going to uh rent in airplanes to to learn how to fly. I found something I really liked. I said, this this is way better than it's a few. More than skiing then, apparently. Well, no, no, no. Initially, it was the idea was the the original was to get to the mountain quicker. Okay. That was the idea. So if I fly an airplane, I can get instead of a four-hour drive, I can get there in less than an hour in an airplane. Ah, okay. That was facilitating. That was the that was the plan, but that really turned us turns things around because I really fell in love with the flying. Okay. And you were how old at this point? Is that about 19, uh, 20, maybe? 1920. Okay. Somewhere in that range. Yeah. And before that, I mean, before that, I still again going back to attending bar. You drink when you attend bar. And I did get a DUI, and that really I was thinking that's going to set me back. There's no way in the world I'm going to get a job flying. But once I, you know, once I started flying, I still wanted to do it. And I could get a medical. They didn't keep me from the medical. But the DUI I thought would really stop me. So I said, you know what? I got to get a master's degree. So after I got a four-year degree from Thomas Edison State College in aviation, because I could use all my I had instrument, uh, multi, all the different different certifications you needed to have. Complex aircraft, twin engine, all that. So I got all those things and used them as credits towards my degree, and then I had to fill in a whole bunch of other credits from you know from Stockton State College and some other places. That was my four-year degree, but I'm thinking this is gonna keep me down. I'm not gonna be able to get a job because you know this this DWI is gonna ruin it for me. So I decided that I needed the master's degree. So back to school, a college down in Florida. Now I can't think of the name of it. Anyway, went down to Florida. I didn't go to Florida. They had the classes at Atlantic uh Atlantic City Airport and McGuire Airport. So I took all the classes I needed. Embry Riddle. Embry Riddle. So I took all the classes I needed, got all the so I ended up with a master's degree in aviation management. And then US Air hired me. Okay. So that actually worked for me. It worked out. In the meantime, back at back in the earlier days before that, all that, I ended up in the flying 727s for a small company, flying a bunch of other airplanes first, a CASA and a Learjet, and this airplane. I just flew a bunch of different stuff. And you needed type ratings for these things. So I had I was advancing pretty well. Got into 727 flying freight, nighttime freight as an engineer, became a first officer, upgraded the captain. I spent five years flying as a captain in 727 nighttime freight. That was that was good. I mean, that was good except for the fact that five on nine off, which is really good, except for the fact that you're not home. You know, you're five days away, you're five, you're you're a way away. Five or or sometimes six days. You're a way away. You're not, and and the wife used to run the house when I wasn't there and went out. Talk to me about where did you meet your wife in and amongst all this. That was in the bar days. Okay. In the bar days. And I I yeah, I kept putting off and putting off this getting marriage thing. It was like, well, once I get my four-year degree, and then it was once I get my master's degree, and then it was once I get a job. And then when I ran out of excuses, I you know, I really I loved her. I I figured, well, yeah, that why why am I why am I dragging this out? So I did. I got married, we had two kids, Jenny and Robin, two little girls. The story goes on with them, you know, how things really molded with them. Yeah, so so flying the 727 and those days off and not being available. So going a lot with have a family, wife, two girls, but traveling a lot with your yep. But when I come home, I'm out playing golf with the guys, out drinking with the guys, firehouse. I had karate on Wednesdays, I had firehouse on Mondays, Wednesdays, different Wednesdays. And I mean it was every day I had something to do, except for being with with Bev, my wife. That was that was me. That was me being me. I didn't think anything of it. I I can tell you I was gone for a stint of three weeks because we had Christmas, we'd fly extra because it was it paid pretty well. So we worked extra for Christmas, and I hadn't been home for like three weeks. And she mentioned the fact, hey, yeah, you haven't even been home for three weeks. You know, you come here and you're doing this. I said, Yeah, but I haven't seen Jim in in in five weeks. How could I make that comparison? How could I make the comparison of some other guy you know playing golf and and drinking with him to being with my wife? I don't know how I I look at it now and I'm like, how could I have been there? How could that have been me? Yeah, I learned a lot the hard way. Again, with with everything that was going on there, she's drifted, and I gave her good reason to. So and and the infidelity became next, and then I I didn't want a divorce. So that's how that whole thing came about. With my girls, I didn't want, you know, for them, I didn't want that. And uh there came a day when I said, Look, can we just can we go see a counselor? And she said, Okay, we'll go see a counselor. So that day I'm out on my bike, I was doing triathlon, you know, mini triathlons, and I ran five Ks almost every week. So we out on the bike, I I go down to the corner where I'm meeting a friend who's gonna ride with me. It's a 20-mile bike ride, so I'm sitting there waiting for him. He pulls up, and a friend pulls up in a car, and he says, uh, you know, he's talking to the other guy, and he starts talking to me, looks at me, he says, Hey, if you ever need anything, uh pastor down at the church down the road there. If you ever need me, just uh come on down. I I took that as like, what's going on here? It's like this is I mean, I I wasn't with God at all, but this is like a God thing. How can this be? I mean, I I just asked her if we could do this. She said, Yeah, and here's Joe Paul's. Here's a pastor. I said, that's good. Pastor's good because yeah, yeah, that's that's better than some counselor that's gonna say, you know, read this book and if you don't get along, just get a divorce. That's what I'm thinking of somebody's gonna do. And I'm looking at Joe Paul's. He's a pastor, thinking, hey, this is positive, this is good. I rode my bike, the 20-mile bike ride, put my bike down, ran over to see Joe. He's I said, Can you meet us the next morning? He met us the next morning, read me the riot act for for everything that I just told you I was doing. I was, you know, I spent more time. I thought our quality time was nights in bed. That was I thought I was that was quality time. Okay, I'm giving with her. Not realizing that you know, for years we hadn't gone on a vacation except for with other families. It was never just me and her, it was always with other families. There was no such thing as date night. We didn't do any of that. So I I created this problem. When Joe read me the riot act as he's walking out the door, he said, Look, you you need to you need to you know take care of yourself. You need to you know come to salvation, you need to see, you know, you need to find God. Okay. So he said, Yeah, come on down Sunday, bring your bring your girls with you. And I did. The first week was fine. The second week after that, I just kept coming and coming and coming, and that was an entire year. And he told me, read the Bible. And he says, you know, I had three different guys. This is really cool. I had three guys talking to me. I had one guy that was a hardcore. He says, You calling God a liar? You know, where it in he, I think it's in Hebrews where it says, Are you calling God a liar? You know, and the other guy was real soft touch, and then it was Joe Paul's right in the middle. So I had three guys sort of not teaming up on me, but when I had questions, I'd go to either one, any one of them. But you know, the one guy would be like, You're calling God a liar. I said, I don't know. I mean, I don't I don't know what I'm doing here. So I read the Bible cover to cover. I mean, it took a while, and everybody kept saying, just well, just go to John, just go to John, read John. I said, if it's true, it's got to all be true. I'm gonna take it cover to cover. And it took me a long time, it took me the year to read it cover to cover. And each week I'd go to Joe Paul's and say, look, Joe, right there, that can't be right. We'd we'd have our little uh Sunday school down the road, right after church service, Sunday school for the men, we'd go down the road, we'd we'd you know have our little discussions, we'd drive or we'd walk back. I always walked up and back. Never rained. Never rained every Sunday for a whole year. Sure, it never rained that entire year. We headed back there and I'd stand there with Joe. My girls would be in the car, uh, listen to you know music, actually, believe it or not, Christian music, because my sister had was a Christian and she you know gave us some CDs. They'd sit in the car quiet. I can't, you know, eight and eight, nine, seven, eight, nine years old, both of them. And and they were never complained, never nothing. It was never did. I mean, they they they were fine with everything. But I'd spend a half hour to an hour out there arguing with Joe, so showing Joe, it just can't be right. I kept pointing to scripture that I just read. This can't be right. Yeah, we evolved, we came from primordial slime. I really believe that because that's what we were taught in school. We're I mean, all through the years, that's all we were taught was evolution. So I I I believed it. Why wouldn't I? I mean, that's what they're teaching us. But the soft, the soft guy, the one that was real soft on me, had me reading ICR's little blurbs about different things, and and I started to see that evolution might might be a little bit off, might might be wrong. And so it took, it took, that took a while. That was a long process because it took me the year of reading the Bible. I finished it, and I still didn't, you know, each one of them saying they almost gave up on me coming to Christ because I'd say, no, I'm not, I I don't know. I just don't know. I I I gotta finish, I gotta read it all. Not just John, I gotta read it all. I read it all, and I still didn't come to it. And it was it was one of those, I think it was like a Monday or a Sunday. Uh it wasn't, it might have been a Sunday night or a Monday, and it was Wednesday. I was gonna go to church. It was January 20th, I think, and I can't remember the year now. But I just realized I'm sitting here trying to prove it wrong and I'm failing. I'm not I'm not very I'm trying to prove this. I know that's what I'm doing now. I it took me reading the Bible and a couple more, you know, a couple more weeks to realize I'm just trying to prove it wrong. That's why I'm going to Joe with the yeah, it can't be right. I realized this is right. This this is true. And at that point I said, well, I'm gonna go Wednesday night and I'll talk to the guys, and I did, and and I, you know, I I that was when I came to Christ. I I admitted that I'm a sinner and I know that. And there's I mean I could I I don't to tell you more stories about the bar days would be to glorify the devil because there's just I mean you you just do things and you just because there's no there's no reason not to. There's nobody stopping you. So I mean it there's no there's no morals. There's no morals in that. It's just you don't you don't have any backing. There's nothing that says you should do this or do that. The world doesn't tell you that. The world lets you run wild, and that's what I did. I ran wild. But after that, yeah, one of the first things I did was, you know, I I gotta stop, you know, my language because we were again before I even worked at the bar, in that bar, you know, we'd uh every other word was was not a nice word. And I mean, the we'd be shouting the four of us or five of us sitting at a table, you know, pictures. Of beer and and shouting and screaming and you know every other word being the wrong one. And you know, the bartender one day yelled over, Don't you guys know any other words? And that should have I mean that I remember that because now as a Christian, yeah, I I didn't know any other words. I every other word had to be, you know, you were out there in the world too. And yeah. So yeah, that was that was and it so that was one of the first things, the first step was I gotta stop. You know, I I so I I rarely, if ever, slip. And it's usually because I'm with guys that are slipping all over the place. And then and I don't think I've ever mumbled that, you know, the the F word at all ever since, because there's no need. There's I mean, it doesn't prove anything.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

But I think what's fascinating too, having those three guys, because they had to help you. We all have to figure out our faith, right? You know, we know it's true, but we all, based on what you were taught, yeah, have lies. Satan's the prince of lies. So really important, you know, the relationship so that they helped you see that what you believed was not true to show you the truth. I think you know, we want people to know the truth, but a lot of times we have to get people to understand their believing lies to come to the truth. So I think it's just an awesome way to summarize you know, you're coming to faith. Like it forced you to question and realize what I thought I knew this is exactly this is not true. Wow, the Bible does explain these things. It is an amazing spiritual book. So that's pretty cool. And reading the whole thing and that God's word speaking to you and coming to that point. And then now you're realizing, hey, I've got to change my life. This is what I believe. So even just starting with the language, yeah, God revealing that to you.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Yeah, there's a lot of things I know I had to change, and and I changed it. There's a song Stephen Curtis Chapman, What about the change? What about the difference? And that I that really is a is again, it's it's it helps me because that's what I when I doubt my faith, but what about the change? What look look at me now? What was I? Look at me now, why? I mean it's it's yeah, sin is fun. And there's no doubt. It's sin is fun. It's it but it's it's deadly. It it kills. I mean, it's it it offers nothing in the end. It offers nothing.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

The wages of sin is death, and you even mentioned like the bar scene, yeah. Pursuing all those things, like what did that really get you? You know, we've all like you say, I've been there myself, you know, chasing these things.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah, but then I would say, well, you know, I'm not Hitler. And then I mean that's that's people how they justify self-justification. Yep, because the but that's not the standard. The standard is Christ. Christ is the standard. That's that's what we're trying to be like him, and guess what? We fail. Ezekiel, Ezekiel, I think it's 18.4. It says the soul that sinneth it shall die. Well, that's where I was gone. That was me. I was on my way to to the eternal death. And it's not it's not just it's ever it's forever. It's torment forever. It's you know, hell is not a nice place. It's not it's not like I'm gonna see all my friends there, as people say. I mean, that's it's not that way. So yeah, that that that was big for me, was was that the change. Turning point. The turning point, yeah. And and changing a lot of things. It had to change a lot of things, and realizing guess who's a sinner and guess who's going to hell. And yeah, but you know, it's still all through that time, I always had little little doubts here and there. Because again, you know, you got you got a foundation of evolution. That's the foundation, that's where I'm starting from. And every now and then it it creeps up and it says, you know what, this isn't real. But then I all I gotta think of is is creation evolution again. I look at it now, and and like the Big Bang Theory, nothing blew up and became everything. That's a really that that makes a lot of sense, right? Nothing blew up, became everything. That's the beginning of it all. There's an uncaused first cause, and that's that's God. There's an un it's uncaused. There's everything that happens has a cause, has there's a reason for things to happen. It's there's a cause. The uncaused first cause is God. There because there at some point you go you keep going back, and then at some point there has to be a well in our mind, there has to be a start because we don't understand no beginning. Right. We don't understand no end necessarily either, but we don't understand no beginning. What do you mean it had to start somewhere? We don't we don't get that. And if you think about that, how did evolution start? What what was the first thing that was out there? And where did that come from? Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

So there's just uh more faith to be ultimately reflecting. You realize you had great faith in these things as an atheist.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Even though they didn't make it, atheist things right faith is is a is a religion. There's nothing.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

But ultimately, atheism is a religion. Scientific naturalism is a religion, and it leads to conclusions that are not good. You know, it's like you say the self-justification and all those things, and there's really no foundation. So kind of moving forward, like so good, we could talk apologetics and stuff. I know you love talking that, but so God's really changing your life. How did I know you were going through marriage counseling and some things? You know, where did things go from there?

SPEAKER_02 27:22

That led to a divorce and it was after the divorce. I didn't want the divorce. I I fought it best I could, and it just I was telling you before, you know, with the girls in the other room. I never we never argued in front of the girls, which I thought was, you know, that was good, except for one time I just I mean they were in the other room and I just I kind of blew up. So we ended up a little bit of a screaming match there. And they were in the other room and I'm sure they heard, yeah, heard the whole thing, and that that hurt me because I didn't want to do that. And there were times, like I said, looking with this whole thing going on, I did not want this. I wanted our kids, I wanted our family. I I I suddenly loved our family. And I was saved, and the girls were gone, and uh, one of the things she really got mad about was I took them to be baptized. And me, you know, I was baptized and they were baptized out in the out in the river, A. Carper River. And the only reason she was mad is because when they were babies, they did the uh Methodist church baptism where they splashed the water on. Yeah. And you know, I knew from you know, from a a a good solid pastor, my you know, pet Joe Paul's, that you need to be submerged. That's that's what that was what baptism always was. And yeah, so she was kind of mad because well, they already did that. No, no, they they really didn't. They besides the fact that they didn't make that decision themselves either. That was put on them. That that's the Catholic way of doing things. Well, they were baptized, they don't remember it. They don't remember why they were baptized, they don't know what's you know anything about that. So that was that was a sort of a sticking point. Again, it's eight months after the divorce. She called me on the phone and I knew she was living with this guy, living with him now, and I was about to ream her out, and and she said, I have cancer. So eight months later she died. So it was it wasn't you know, it wasn't a little thing, and it was kind of it was hard. I mean it's you know, sh we were divorced, but you know, I had I didn't date, I didn't do anything for almost five years because I I didn't want to to cause that make that impossible to come back. But after after the divorce and after eight months and you know, she died, and the girls, I don't think they ever knew how to grieve. I think that was an issue for them. I don't remember them ever crying about it. And yeah, I again I I never badmouth. I never because I you know, I caused a lot of that, and I you know, I see that now. And I see I see my sin. Yeah. But had that not happened, some people in our church when she was in the hospital went up and talked to her and she came to Christ. Yeah. Yeah. So she came to Christ at that time with one of our people from church. And that was that was cool. That was that was necessary. I you know, I I wasn't in a position where I could talk to her that way, but they they did that, and I I know where she is now. And that that gives me a lot of uh relief too. And I think the kids too. I think they sort of they're they're walking, they're walking a good walk, both of both of my daughters, and that's good, and their husbands too. So, yeah. And again, with with Judy and her kids, they're walking too. So, I mean, I don't want to say her kids anymore. It's our kids. Yeah, we blended uh beautifully. It's unbelievable. It's I mean, we we're going on vacations together, we do everything together.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

So it's kind of obviously coming to faith, some of the hardest years, spiritual warfare-wise, you know, we think, oh, everything's yeah, wonderful, but a lot of times there's trials with those times. So it sounds like you kind of went through that, but praise God. Yeah, your ex-wife necessary. It's never too late, right? We know that on the cross.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

That's great. Trials are absolutely necessary.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

I don't then how did Judy come into the picture here?

SPEAKER_02 31:26

How did she came in church? She was in church, and it was it was a singles group.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That she was, you know, she asked me to come because one of her friends was interested in me. Okay. So, well, you know, we got there and I found out where she lived, and and I said, Well, I can take I've nothing, no serious anything yet. But I said, I can pick you up because I'm you know it's a long drive to church and you're right down the road, so I'll I'll come pick you up. So that's how it sort of started. We never had a date until I guess it was maybe three, four months of of being together, and but we never really were able to go out or never just never worked out. Eventually we did, and that's that's how the whole thing got started, and we got married within a year. Our pastor didn't want to doesn't like doing anybody for less than a year, but he says, Yeah, you're getting up an age. So they they sort of let us get away with it. Time is ticking, huh? Time is ticking. So yeah, we so we got yeah, we got married and it was great. Yeah, all our friends were there, even the secular ones, a bunch of them. It's it's hard because you lose those friends. They just they sort of go away.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Once you kind of lose that commonality, you don't really have that.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Yeah, yeah, we're not going out drinking, we're not doing this, we're not doing that, and and yeah, a lot of that, a lot of that changes. But yeah, it's necessary. Yeah. One of the things uh back with you know, knowing I'm a sinner, knowing how I got, you know, that I had to realize that. I had to realize that all the things I've done, all the people I've girls I've been with, and all the rest of that, that's that's sin. All that is sin. All all the you know, the there's you know, I stole, I I I coveted, I you know, named name all ten commandments, and I've done them all. I've failed in every way. I've failed the Ten Commandments. That test is long, long failed. Every one of them, you know, I never put God first, or I didn't put God first back then. I used his name in vain. What's the other one? Pursuing idols. Pursuing idols, yep. You know, Sabbath day, but Sabbath day, I guess that that's sort of like yeah, I'm working on the Sabbath day now, but the Sabbath day and the way Jesus says it's different now than it was back then. That was that was uh one day a week, and it was you know, then and the Jews took it a little too far too with the you know, you you can't you can't pick up a fork. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. He's our Sabbath rest, that's it. Uh but still, you know, the one day rest and the and the being in church is is huge for me. The fact that I'm working this all this and I I when I watch the pod is that a podcast too?

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Which one? Oh, for uh we do with Pastor Mark. Yeah, yeah, we do. There you go. That's our Tuesday podcast episode on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, I'm talking about the the uh sermon itself. Oh, okay. I I catch that when I'm away. Yes, or I go to a church, I'll find a church. There's a really good one out in Cal not California, uh Florida, Palm Beach. That I I went up and talked to the pastor. And guess who sang there before? I got no idea.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Our group. Oh, okay. Colin Levy. Pastor. Uh calling Levy. Yep, calling Levi.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

They sang that. He says, Oh, yeah, Mark, but you know, he when I told him who it was and everything, they yeah, they were familiar. So that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah, Mary Judy. Obviously, now awesome you guys met at church, and so having that faith foundation, how have you seen that you know play out through your marriage in terms of having that stronger bond through your faith versus all that God brought you through?

Everyday Evangelism With Prayer And Care

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Very, very strong praying wife. And that that's I mean, it you know, it's knowing she's praying for me, knowing she's praying for our family, knowing that that's all going on. I that's it's incredible encouragement. Yeah, I I'll tell you, I as you were talking about before with evangelism, how you know I really do I I want to get out and do more. I gotta get off my butt and start moving. I I know that. I know that I I know that you know that I'm a sinner, and I know that people don't realize they're sinners. And that's that's the whole problem. When you tell me you're a sinner, you say, Oh, yeah, you call me a sinner, yeah. Well, no, you are a sinner, and so am I, and and so is he, and so and so is Pastor Pastor Mark and everybody else. We're all sinners. God said that we're all sin and fall short of the glory of God, every one of us. So the idea of using the Ten Commandments that really hit me. And I I had uh a girl from work previously in Atlantic City when I was working in Atlantic City, and one of our fellow pilots, he was our chief pilot, Jewish. His dad died, and they were sitting shiva, they call it sit in shiva. You you go there for it's it's a bunch of days, you sit around and you just talk and then you eat food, and you sit in the other room and you just you just sit there, sit in shiva. So on the way out there, it was nothing, and we talked a little bit, and I started because uh at this point, you know how you get when you're first saved, you're on fire. You you want to tell everybody. And I was there talking to them at the Shiva, and they sort of did turn me back a little bit. But on the way driving home, I you know took her through the Ten Commandments. I you know, do you ever tell a lie? That's and as we're going through the whole thing, it was about a half hour, 45-minute drive. And and I didn't know it, but the next year she said, Today's my birthday. I had no idea what she's talking about. Why are you telling me it's your birthday? What do you expect a present or something? You know what I mean? It was one of those things. Says, no, I got saved one year ago when we were in the tr in the truck on the way home. I was like, Are you kidding me? I mean, that you know how that you know what it's like talking to somebody, lead them to Christ. What a blessing. I mean, what man, the feeling you get when when it's you're not leading them. God's God's you can just see the spirit working, he's the save, he's the one who saves, but to use you, he used me. He used me to do this. It was such a such a blessing. It was Yep.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

So definitely encourage our listeners. I know Al, that's a big part of your testimony, is we need to always be, you know, kind of remember, yeah, but especially like you say, when we first come to faith, it's easy. What was the saying I heard? What's the worst thing that can happen to a new Christian? They can meet an old Christian who's kind of just the flame has gone out. Like, no, we should always be on fire, desiring, and you know, when God opens our eyes to our own sin, but also to have compassion for others, you know, the sin that they're stuck in. Like you say, you were in the bar scene. I had much idolatry and just meaninglessness in my life, and you just see that in other people. Even sometimes you see it in believers who are just backsliding, but it gives you a heart for other people when we know what we've come from, what we know what God has saved us from. So, how can we be more intentional beyond mission? Who is God putting in your life that you can truly speak into? Because you had those three guys who shared and were faithful. Yeah, they were faithful. Who can we be in somebody else's life? Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Well, one of the things that Judy and I do, we go to we eat out a bit, and in fact, last night we were over at the one by the uh by the river.

unknown 38:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Augustine's great meal. Our our waitress was Beth, uh Bella. So we're talking to Bella, and the first thing we always do is before she leaves, I said, Well, we're gonna pray before we eat. Is there something we can pray for you about? And we get all kinds of we do that everywhere we go. Every every you know, whenever we go out to dinner, and then of course when you do that, your your tip is very large. Yeah, usually I'm usually a 30%, 35% tipper anyway, just you know, just because. And especially when you talk to them about Christ, you don't want to be the chief Christian. You don't want to be that's right. You want to show them that that's something different. It's yeah. But we do that because sometimes it leads to really good discussions. Sometimes they'll sit down there and start crying because it's not you know their mother's sick and she's you know she's in deathbed or so. Whatever it is, it's always we always I mean not always, but we usually find something in common. It's very, very rare that they say, nah, I'm good and walk away. Very rare. Usually they you know they'll come up with something or or we'll say, look, if you if you need to think about it, just come back a little later. One girl just recently down the down at the stake place in the middle town, she said, Can I pray with you? And I said, Of course. So we grab hands and and we prayed with her right there. She goes to a different church, but the idea is the encouragement you give them too. I mean, it's not just it's not just always bringing someone to Christ. It's sometimes encouraging somebody who really needs the encouragement. And sometimes that's a believer who really needs the encouragement. So that's something that that works for us. I mean, that's something that we consistently do. But yeah, there's other ways too. There's there's neighbors, there's stuff like that. That you we need to we need to get out and talk to them. We need to talk to people.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Be relational, I think, is a way that's very important to think.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

You know, you can't just attack them with the gospel. You can't just say, hey, you know, you're gonna believe you're going to hell. Can't attack. I mean, it's you give grace to the humble and the law to the to the proud. That's the way I think it should be done. I mean, when they're when it's a humble person you're talking to, I mean, you don't you don't have to hit the Ten Commandments and tell them they're sinners, they know. But the proud people, the proud ones are the ones. But first, if if you want them to listen to you, you better show them more than just that I just want to beat you over the s over the head with a with the gospel. I I need to be in your life a little bit. I have to have a relationship with you somehow. I have to I have to show you some kind of love for you to you know put time into what I have to say.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. So if you truly care, we're out to win souls, essentially, if you want to use the old Billy Graham term, but we're not out to win arguments or debates. That's it's good to be equipped and have good reasons, but truly we should care for people and be looking to share the truth. And that's what we have graciously. God has done that. And but like you said, we can be used by God in amazing ways. And I know, yeah, one of the best experiences of my life is seeing a friend of mine come to Christ and being there and sharing the gospel. It's like, man, I praised God the whole drive home. And it was it's a long God story. I've told a few parts of it. He might hear he might hear this podcast. I don't know, he's a great guy, and and it's changed our friendship. Like our friendships become deeper, having that in common. So well, man, we could talk for a long time, but I appreciate you sharing just kind of where you came from and uh, you know, just where we wander through and God really having to show us. But hopefully, you know, for the listeners, you may know somebody like Al used to be or many of us, but don't be afraid to share the truth, to speak into them, to care about them, to have talks with them. Let them talk about their atheism and just ask questions, you know, help them examine and really break down those beliefs, you know, in a loving way. We want to break down the lies and rebuild in the truth. So look for those opportunities every day.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yep. Questions, questions work. The last 10 years have been here at Life House in the in the first in the the school. Or first in, yeah, first in the school was there, yeah. Like I said, four-year anniversary. And it's been great since I've been you know able to I I love serving. I I I wish I could do more with this flying schedule I have makes it bad. But I really think that uh to get involved is the big thing. Judy, when she first started here, you you cannot believe what happened to her in ten years because we fear first when she first came here, she wanted to go to a different church because there are too many young people. There's no old people here. That's four years ago, or the four-year anniversary, there were a lot of young people. And we were older, but there were also a lot of old people that we didn't just didn't pick up. But she has grown so much and in that time span that I mean her prayer life is has gone from you know the ten to a hundred. So it's and my everything I do now I I try to do with him in mind, with him knowing that he's there. Even when no one else is watching, he's watching. That's right. And if we keep that in mind that that'll That'll keep us in the right direction. But we're still going to sin. And we're still sinners. And we still need a savior.

Final Encouragement And Closing

SPEAKER_01 44:07

It's a lifelong journey. Yes, it is. We'll appreciate the conversation. Lifehouse family. Hopefully this was an encouragement to you. I encourage you to see Al if you he's got the big old beard and bald head put on a look a little like Santa Claus, but uh he is a deacon here, so I'm sure he would love to talk to you if you have questions. As always, if you have any, let us know. We'll be glad to talk to you. But Al, thanks so much for this time. And listeners, thanks for tuning in, and we will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in to the Life Talk Podcast. If this episode encouraged you, please be sure to like, comment, subscribe, and leave a review so others can find this content as well. And we'll look forward to seeing you next Monday for another great episode.