Hey, y'all. This is Lauren Loreto owner of brand good time, a boutique marketing consultancy based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And you are listening to the she's busy AF podcast week. I am thrilled to bring you my first go at article club, a little series I'm doing within the she's busy AF podcast, where I bring on a guest, we read the same article, and then we talk about it. This week's guest is Jen Hartman, founder of meat marketing, which is also a boutique marketing consultancy based in Louisville, Kentucky, Jen and her team work with both startups and global brands to drive brand increased website, traffic and conversions through innovative marketing strategies in her downtime. She enjoys running half marathons, spending time with her fiance and dog Bruin and drinking bourbon. She's picked quite the article this week from ink and it's titled why retraining and adaptability will define the next generation of top performers. And O do we have a lot to talk about, all right, let's get into it. Welcome Jen. After some technical difficulties, I'm very excited to be having this conversation with you. I think this is the first time you've been on my podcast, which you pushed me to start. So welcome. Thank
Speaker 2:You so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. And can I just say, I love the idea of article call because I'm busy AF and I don't always have time to do book clubs. So this worked out perfectly.
Speaker 1:I know. So little backstory here. I was like, Jen, I wanna do book club. Let's read the same book and let's do this and wasn't it. You, it was like, Hey, that might be really ambitious. And I'm like, yeah, doing this like one per month, I barely even have time to read a novel. Um, which is like, I'd prefer to read novels over, over anything business related. So I'm like, okay, you know what? This is probably like more realistic for everybody. So yeah. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 2:You are so welcome. I'm excited to dive in.
Speaker 1:Cool. So yeah, there's a lot to talk about here and I think it's because you and I share a lot of similar frustrations just in business. So I almost wonder if I that's what you were thinking when you read this article, but also, um, it's, it's definitely, this is like new wave thinking, especially in the corporate world. So as entrepreneurs, I think it's very interesting to like, get a glimpse into this and see like, oh, that's what other businesses are doing. Like, as we grow our businesses into what we think that's gonna look like, but the first thing I think I kind of wanna digest from this article is a piece of the title, which says next generation of top performers. So we are millennials, you and our millennials, we were born in the nineties. Um, and the generation below us is generation Z. They are the TikTok generation. They grew up with I iPhones, right? Like iPhones came out when we were in middle school. Right. And so, yeah, they grew up with them. Like they, I don't think they know life before iPhones and, and like, you know, just having the world at their fingertips again, this is kind of stray from the article topic, but I think it's like a really good thing to pause and talk about because, you know, um, we, we talked about this a little bit before the call, but like millennials have their own set of issues for like anxiety and depression and all of that. And, and then we have gen Z and it's, you know, te I think is forced as a hand of a whole other set of issues, but like, what are, what are your thoughts on like, if you compared millennials to gen Z?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. Um, it's funny because I don't feel like I'm that much older than the elder gen Zs, but we're wildly different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are.
Speaker 2:So something that I think is interesting that you kind of touched on is the mental health issues. And yes, I will say us millennials have our own set of problems when it comes to mental health. I mean, think about everything that we have lived through in the past 20 something years, it's been crazy. Of course we're gonna have issues from all of that. But what I think is interesting about gen Z is they are very vocal about their mental health. And it's almost like that they've normalized mental health and they've brought it to the forefront and they've made it easier for us to voice our mental health issues as well. So I think that's, um, what's really interesting about gen Z is just the mental health issues and how they've been able to voice it. The other that I think is super intriguing about gen Z is that they don't live to work where like millennials, like a lot of our personalities are rooted in our careers. Whenever you ask someone a millennial to introduce themselves and to tell us a bit more about them there automatically like, well, I'm a C P or I'm a lawyer, or, um, they always identify with their job and gen Zs don't always do that. They don't live to work. And so that also comes with a whole different set of issues.
Speaker 1:So yeah. What do you think that's gonna do for our job market and for like corporate America in general? Like where, what are you seeing? Um, I guess we could go even into like firsthand experience of working and hiring generations Z within our business. Like what, what does that look like for them and how, like, how do you work with it's? Like, how do you work with that thing? Like, you know, like we're talking about it as if they are completely different species, but, uh, yeah. I mean, what is your, what's your take on that?
Speaker 2:You, it's funny is our parents, not our parents, but the generation above us used to talk about millennials in this way. They used to be like, all those millennials they're so not motivated. They only care about their cell phones. And like now I feel old and grumpy talking about GenY.
Speaker 1:Well, here's the thing. Like we, we took our cell phones and made something out of it. Um, like my mom, she would joke with people like, you know, cuz they would be like, well, she's always on social media when I was younger, when social media became a thing and my mom was like, so like she's gonna make a living out of it. Just watch. And like, sure enough, that's kind of like right. A roundabouts way. Like we wouldn't have our jobs without digital media. I mean, we'd be doing something very different both of us. So, you know, it is kind of like we millennials have taken social media and made it fit the workplace. That's honestly what I think our like biggest accom, not biggest accomplishment, but it is one of our very large accomplishments is like we've gone into business in is and, and paved the way for digital media to have a purpose in, in business. Um, but generation Z it's like, it is a big question mark in my mind, like what are they contributing? Um, you know, I think some of them, I, you know, here. Okay. And here's where, here's where I think the issue is. I think it goes back to mental health, like, um, I've in talking with other peers who have generations, E employees in their business, um, that, that like age bracket, it's motivating them, like figuring out how to motivate them is not easy. Like it's not how we're motivated. And so it's, it's, it presents its own set of challenges. Um, which that's why I think this article's a really good fit for conversation. Um, but yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I agree with you. I have found that when it comes to gen Z, they're not motivated in the same way we were. And the other problem, going back to your original question when it comes to gen Z's, I've also, so when it comes to like gen Zs in the workplace, I don't see the same type of loyalty that we had to our employers, but also we were raised by the parents who were at the same job for 40 years. Yeah. And they passed that mentality down to us and God forbid, we left a job after a year. We were, we were job hoppers. Right. I felt
Speaker 1:Was so guilty doing that. I remember. And even like my husband, like I remember just recently he like felt guilty for leaving a job and it's like, okay. But that's, it's just so different now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's so different. And I don't see the same kind of loyalty with gen Z. So they're not afraid to go from job to job, to job every couple of months or every year. So I think that their career trajectories are going to look very different than ours did. Yeah. Now I know it's a little bit weird to talk about that because now we both work for ourselves, but picture like us working in corporate, like I just, I think that would look very different. I almost feel like because gen Z's job hop a lot more frequently than we did, they are probably going to progress in their careers a lot faster. You did.
Speaker 1:Oh, so, okay. Okay. That's very interesting. Like I would've thought that them job hopping was like associated almost with this, like the fast-paced culture of social media. Like you think about like TikTok and like swiping through TikTok and like you you're bored. You move on. I, I like, I didn't picture it as like progressing in their careers. I, I kind of thought the opposite. It, I mean time will tell. Right. I think that there are just like there's anomalies in our generation. There's anomalies in gen Z, too, who like don't fit the mold. They're old souls, you know? So like they're gonna do with that, what they will, but they all have the same like underlying characteristics in how they grew up with technology. Um, and I think I really, I really feel like tech plays into it. So I guess like, you know, I wanna go two directions here, one direction. Like I would love to take a little, a little moment. Um, and I know you have some light to shed here and give some advice, you know, to, to generation Z from us millennial, um, you know, on really, no matter where you wanna go, whether you wanna start your own business or grow your career. I think there's just some underlying themes, um, to like, you know, be successful in the way that you wanna be successful. And then number two, I wanna talk about corporate companies and like how the, and exactly what this article's talking about. Um, adaptability and, uh, train training within an organization. Like what, what do we think that's gonna look like and how, how can like corporate companies retain this talent?
Speaker 2:Two very good questions. I'm gonna answer the first one. And then you might have to come back and remind me about the second part. So a couple of pieces of advice for gen Zs who are entering the workforce, don't be afraid to bring ideas to the table. I know it's really scary to go from college into working your first job, but we're hiring you for your fresh perspective. So don't be afraid to let us know. I like to say there's no such thing as a bad idea. Tell me all the ideas and we'll pick out a couple to run with. The other thing, when it comes to advice for gen Zs is to work on building trust with your manager. I've talked to a lot of people who have said, I feel like I need to micromanage my gen Z employees. So that tells me that there is a major lack of trust between managers and gen Z employees. So work on building that trust with your manager, really important to show that you are independent, that you can complete projects on time that you don't need to be watched over at work. Last piece of advice I wanna give gen Z is find a manager who has the ability to mentor you your first boss and your first job is seriously so important to the trajectory of your career. It can make the biggest difference. When you have someone who's will willing to train you and guide you and kind of mentor you along the way. I, I wish somebody had told me this when I was entering the workforce, my first job, I had no mentorship, no training, no one cared to kind of guide me in any kind of direction. And I think that that would've made such a big difference in where, in what direction I went in with my life. Now, granted I work for myself, so everything did work out, but I'm almost wondering would I have made it to corporate a little bit sooner? Would I like, would I have landed a better corporate job? Had I had a better boss for my very first job?
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's such a good point. Um, because you, you learn, you you're gonna learn so much there and you're gonna figure out quickly what you like, what you don't. Um, I guess kind of a question I have for you, what, you know, we're living in this like post pandemic world now, and a lot of companies have gone virtual and I just think that's extremely detrimental to the learning environment for, um, fresh meat, I guess you would call it, you know, like entering your first job and whether it's entry level or not. Like my first job was not entry level. I lied about my experience and that is why, but you know, like we all have that like entry point and, you know, having that mentorship, having that help is so important, but like, I don't know how I would've, I I'm. So I'm in, in independent thinker to what fault, which is probably why I ended up an entrepreneur similar to you. And I don't know that like not being in the environment and having like critical thinking type of discussions like that wouldn't have played out the same way virtually. So I guess like, do you have any pieces of advice for, you know, like having a, having employed people within your business this way, do you have any advice for, um, people entering the workforce who are gonna have to be forced to be bully or partially virtual?
Speaker 2:That's so tough and I'm so grateful that I was entering the workforce at a very different time when remote work was kind of a crazy concept, it is tough. I mean, there's so much that happens in an office that you don't get to see from behind a computer screen. You have the water cooler chit chat, you go up for drinks after work, you have that comradery that you don't get over zoom. So I would say advice would be to make sure that you over communicate. I think that sometimes communication and is missed when you're working remote. So don't be afraid to over communicate. Don't be afraid to ask for outside projects either if you're looking to grow in your career, it's really important that you take on work outside of your current job. Yeah. I think that a lot of people just like to do their job and shut down for the day, but if you wanna grow and you wanna grow your skillset and you wanna take on bigger roles in the future, you have to do things that are outside of your scope. Don't be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think, I think a good way to do that is get involved with local organizations. Like I see a lot of like young professional networking groups and like, you can work your way to be on the board. Like, you're you do the PR you do marketing. Like you do some aspect of it and you gain a lot of experience. And also it's like really great network building because you never know like who of people might be hiring. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. That's a great idea. I really, really like that idea, especially with everyone kind of being remote nowadays, um, that person, yeah. You at least get to like get in person with people. You can interact with your peers. You can ask questions, you can talk about your work problems and get answers. So I really like that idea. The other idea too, you kind of like bouncing off of that is go to in a co-working space.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You'll get to see kind of feel
Speaker 1:Yeah. And like see if your job will pay for it. I, I think I like really hope. I don't know. I don't have a pulse on like corporate right now, but, but I really hope that that they're considering that especially like over like sea level or even like management, I, that they're trying to get that their lower level entry level mid-level employees like into a space where they can't interact and be around other people, even if it's not within their own business, like I know VPNs and all that stuff are an issue. But, you know, I just think for like literally mental health and like stability of business, like you need to be around other people. And I probably would've disagreed with my exact thought process right now. Had you asked me in 2020, but now I, I see it. Like, I, I don't know. I just don't think that bringing an entry level person into remote work is a good idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree with you for sure. It's just, you learn so many valuable skills from interacting with other working professionals and you don't get that through zoom.
Speaker 1:No. And it's going to breed like a very interesting, I think bubble of people down the line, because there are companies who aren't seeing that.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I also feel too, as someone who's creative, someone who's a market. I don't have the same kind of ideas when I meet with my team over zoom versus meeting with people in person. Like my ideas run wild when I meet people for coffee. Yes. But over zoom it's like, my creativity is just stumped.
Speaker 1:I have to take a shower before zoom meetings. Cause you know how like all your best ideas come to you in the shower. So like, if I have that moment to pause before cuz here's what happened. It's I guess like in, in, when I worked at an agency, you go from being really busy and you get up and walk to the conference room. But at the same time, like you're, you're not like attached to a digital device walking to the conference room. It's kind of the same thing at home. Like you're literally switching browser tabs. So like how, how can your brain be like filled with ideas and motivated when you're just like, you're trying to shut off one thing and turn on something else. Like it just, yeah, it just doesn't work like that. Okay. So on the flip side of this, um, talking about corporate companies and retraining and adaptability within an organization, um, so in this article they talked about how like, you know, instead of going and get an MB or like a company paying for an employee to go get an MBA, they're coming up with programs like specific niche. From what I understand, niche programs within a company. I think the example given in this article was coding. So doing kind of like a coding school within the organization, this to me is like it's vague in my mind, the concept is vague in my mind, just as like, I think the thought of a touch screen phone was vague in a lot of people's minds, 20, 30 years ago. What are your thoughts on this? How do you think this is going to change corporate America and corporate and just in general and what does this do for the trajectory of businesses in general?
Speaker 2:I think it's gonna change the education system more than it's gonna change corporate America because the education system is so far behind and this is coming from someone who has an MBA. I loved my MBA. It was a great program. But when I went from an MBA to corporate America, I realized how little of my degree carried over into what I was doing with my job. Unfortunately, a lot of the professors are, you know, they're great. Right. I, I can't knock my MBA too much. Like I had great professors, they were very knowledgeable, but they were also in their fifties, sixties and seventies. So what they were teaching, it may have been relevant 20 years ago, but it was not relevant to working in tech today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's like application based. Wasn't even a thing. Like I, uh, I think we've talked about this before and I'm actually staring at it media and culture and introduction to mass communication. It's literally sitting, staring at me at my bookshelf, this, like I took a digital media class and they're like, well, this is the first time we're offering this at our school. Well, this was 10 years ago. Okay. Mm, yep. 10 years ago. This is the first time we're offering. This is probably gonna look different every year. And it's like so true. You know, like how can I, I just, I don't know, like as an employer at this point, like I don't take MBAs seriously that doesn't, that doesn't give me a reason to need to like qualify you more. No offense. Um, then someone else, like, all it tells me is that probably really book smart and scrappy and knowledgeable and you could probably like sound very intelligent and you probably are very intelligent. But does that mean that you have, does that mean that you're any better than the person who's like busted their as 60 hours a week and gained so much experience in like an agency? You know, like, I don't know. I don't think that it's much different. If anything, the person who has the experience probably will be able to do what I need them to do within my business.
Speaker 2:You said that perfectly. And I agree with you. Um, it's tough because I wanna be like, go get an MBA. I have an MBA, you need an MBA, but like, that's also not true depending on the situation. Now, if you want to be taken pretty seriously in a corporate it, a corporate role, um, at director level or above, you do need an MBA, but if you're anything below that or you work for yourself, God, no, don't waste your money on an MBA. Starting a business is an MBA in and of itself. And yeah, I agree with you. I am definitely smart. Um, I am a pretty decent speaker me hopping on here and not being able to come up with words at 10 in the morning. Um, but I am very good at like presenting very professional. And I learned a lot of that during my MBA. And without that program, I don't think I would be here as a professional. I would've never landed my corporate job from my corporate job. I probably would've never moved into entrepreneurship or maybe I would have, but it would've taken probably 50 or 20 years longer than it should have. So I think my MBA really jump started, um, a lot of my life for me, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Okay. Wait, so let's talk about this for a second, because you just said that, um, you really think at this point with knowing what you know now that an MBA is good for someone who's like upper level management, like, you know, moving up within their careers, uh, assuming you probably thought when you went to get your MBA, that it was just the right thing to do. It was the next thing to do. Like why, what was the moment in your life that you're like, you know what, I'm gonna get my MBA. Like why, why did you land there?
Speaker 2:So my undergrad degree was in communications because I love to talk
Speaker 1:Same, honestly, in my undergrads and also in communications. So I get it. We're right. We're the same person. It's fine.
Speaker 2:And I got to senior year and I had this moment of, oh, wait a second, an undergrad degree. I don't know if that's really gonna work with the direction I want to go in because by senior year I had figured out, oh, I wanna be in corporate marketing. It just took me that many years to figure that out. Had I figured that out sooner, I would've picked maybe a marketing degree or a business degree, but I just, I didn't know until I turned 21. So I figured why not go get my MBA, take my time, get some work experience during my MBA. I worked the whole time I was in grad school. I worked 40 to 45 hours a week. And then I did my schoolwork at night. It was the hardest two years of my entire life. I didn't have a social life. I quit racing BMX on a national level. It was really, really intense. But at the end of the day, it proved to be really well worth it. So I'm glad I went, I don't regret my decision at all. I don't regret my loans. Um, again, like I don't think I would be here without that experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it, it's not to say that like getting an MBA at 21 is the right or wrong thing to do either. Um, I always tell people, like I loved college because it taught me, I don't know if it taught me to balance things because here I am as a mom and two other business and like feeling very fine. Like I don't feel stressed, you know? So I think school taught me like how to make certain things a priority. It gave me like a lot of soft skills, you know, just like juggling life and, you know, being an adult in the world, you know, like that's what college did for me. But it also like, you know, it cha it challenges you at tests. You, it gives you a lot of moments of like, am I gonna do this? Am I gonna give up? What else should I do? Like, is this the right path? Um, which I think is good. I think every human needs that. Um, and also there's like nothing wrong with dropping out of any program halfway through. I think if the right opportunity comes along.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And I think that we're gonna see things change a little bit as my millennials move into management positions and director level roles and executive roles and all the things as we start to move up in corporate America. I think that we're going to see things change a little bit just because I think millennials are starting to realize, well, education isn't really everything. And so I think that we're not going to be requiring college, like we currently do, because we're just seeing that they're not, it doesn't matter. Um, I mean, sometimes it does, right? Like if you wanna move on and you wanna be a doctor or an accountant, a, a lawyer and yeah. Or an attorney. Yes, exactly. Yes. Go, go to grad school. Right? Go get your medical degree, go do what you need to do. But if you're gonna go in a market, oh my God, you need marketing skills. Right. You need to spend those four years developing real skills that you can take and jump into an agency with.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean, let's just say this, look at any social media management or marketing job description and just dissect it. You need to have, um, you need to be proficient in Photoshop. You need to, um, like Naughty's canvas send emails, write, copy. It's like, correct me if I'm wrong. But like one class in college is not gonna teach you that,
Speaker 2:Oh,
Speaker 1:Will teach you basically the overarching concept of one thing. Like I went halfway through a design school, like I was gonna major in graphic design and I failed my BFA because they didn't like my figure drawing, which like still to this day, don't understand why I need to know how to draw, but it's fine. I'm really glad it happened that way. Cuz I switched my major minor and like here I am, um, I got scrappy, but like it was all basic concepts and it was very, I'll never get this right. Is it objective or subjective? The one where like they, like, they wanted to look a certain way. Not,
Speaker 2:I think it's objective.
Speaker 1:I can never figure these right. Figure these out. Um, it was very objective and um, I just think that that's what the, a lot of our you're right. It's very behind like our education system just looks like that. I think developing niche is so much more important. Like I think getting an associate's degree would even be enough for me because I think an associate's degree is gonna teach you the basics. You're gonna have like basic English, basic math, maybe a little bit of Spanish or French, whatever. But like you then need to spend those next two years developing your skills. And I even think like I would just love see more companies launching or having internships that are more application based. Like that's what I seek out when I was in college. I was like, I'm only gonna take an internship if it's application based so that I can develop the skills. So like that is honestly what I think needs to happen. And I think that this article touches on just that, you know, like while it's about talent, who's already within the company. Like I think having on the other end, those internships that are gonna develop skills and I mean, then think about it. You train them, you can retain the talent and grow them within your own business.
Speaker 2:That's the point I was gonna bring up. I was gonna say that this method of educating people, educating employees within your own company, you're going, you see a higher retention rate. Yeah. Which coming back to what we talked about in the beginning of this podcast episode and how, um, we're going to see gen Zs hopping from job to job to job. I don't think that's gonna be the case if there's a reason to stay at the company. Absolutely. And I think that providing continued education is a good reason to stay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean not to get that on another side tangent, but what we're seeing right now is very similar to the real estate market in that there's a lot of jobs and not a lot of people, like just like there's a lot of people looking to buy homes and not a lot of homes. Um, and so I think it's very easier right now to go after dollar signs. But if I could throw out, if I could use this moment to throw out any advice to, um, anyone looking for an entry level job, or even just moving into a different job, whether that's in corporate America or not, don't go after the dollar signs, like really think about your career path and like what is going to make you happy? Um, because like at the end of the day, like you wanna love what you do. So you don't like you spend a lot of your week, 40 hours a week or more working like you, you really wanna like what you do and know that it's gonna be a really good stepping stone for that next move in your career for retirement. For, I mean, we could talk about 30 things from here, but um, just don't chase the dollar signs, you know?
Speaker 2:Can I add onto your advice here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think a job is great. Right? Look for something that you're genuinely going to enjoy, but also look for a really great boss. Yeah. I think all too often you're looking at the job description and the salary, but not too many people are like, oh, who am I gonna be working side by side with?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. That's, that's
Speaker 2:So important.
Speaker 1:It's so true. Yeah. It's so true. Cuz how many times have you hated who you are working with even within your own business?
Speaker 2:Lauren. That's why I quit corporate America. I literally dropped out of corporate America because of my boss and my boss's boss. And I would have stayed had I had a better boss.
Speaker 1:See it's uh, this is like such, I need to put this. Like I wish I could pin this on my podcast and be like for any like entry level midlevel person looking to work at all, watch this. I mean listen to this. Um, yeah, no, this was, uh, this was such a good conversation. Jen. I love talking with you. I feel like I can't have these types of conversations with a lot of people. So, um, I love that our energy is like really feed off each other. We have a lot of the same viewpoints because we have a similar background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I really enjoy our conversations too. It's always, I don't know. I was pretty tired when I hopped on our recording this morning and now I'm like fired up. I'm ready to go. So this is like the perfect way to start my day.
Speaker 1:Oh yay. I love to hear it. I'm gonna do all my recordings in the mornings now. That's great. Awesome. Well, while we wrap this up, I want to kind of give you the opportunity to tell people where they can find you, how they can connect with you, where you hang out online, give it, give it to us.
Speaker 2:You can find me on the instagram@neat.marketing. That's neat with an N and not meet. I have plenty of people who are like, I'll meet marketing. Do you market meet? And I'm like, you know, not yet, but Hey, who knows what 2020 to will bring me. I have a podcast as well, served neat. And our website is neat marketing llc.com.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well thank you so much, Jen. I cannot wait to get this out to the public wish I could do it today. But anyways, with that being said, thank you everyone for tuning in this is again, Lauren brand good time of she's busy. AF if you enjoyed this episode, please, uh, subscribe like subscribe, do all the things and make sure you share it to your stories on Instagram. Tag me tag Jen. And uh, we'll see you on the next episode.