Indie Intermission Ep. 20- I blame the girl who is gone. (They Came in the Night)

Hannah and Laura are still on Indie Intermission and covering the second half of They Came in the Night by Ravi Novais! This book is a total romp with some great characters and LOTS of spice. Hannah and Laura also chat about some amazing YA books, a very mysterious author, complications in documentaries, and another unique movie double feature.

**This episode contains SPOILERS for They Came in the Night by Ravi Novais. Spoiler section begins at: 49 min 10 secs.*

**CW for the episode: discussions of neurodivergence, developmental disabilities, violence, blood, gore, sex, abusive relationships, vampires, mental illness, sexism, misogyny, nepotism, death, murder**

Media Mentions:

They Came in the Night by Ravi Novais

Strange Pictures by Uketsu

Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi

Mickey17---HBOMax

Love on the Spectrum---Netflix

Talk To Me Sis podcast

Good Hang podcast

Raybearer by Jordan Ifueko

Redemptor by Jordan Ifueko

The Maid and the Crocodile by Jordan Ifueko

Namina Forna's works

Asunder by Kerstin Hall

Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn

Gone Girl---AppleTV

Bridgerton---Netflix

Sleeping with the Enemy---Hulu

Chapters

• 0:46 Laura's Reading, Watching and Enjoying
• 30:36 Hannah's Reading Watching and Enjoying
• 49:10 They Came in the Night Chapter 26 through the end.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Bye. Welcome to Our Pod, and by that I mean on Wednesdays we read. I'm Hannah.

SPEAKER_01: 0:09

I'm Laura.

SPEAKER_03: 0:10

And we are two best friends who do a deep dive into a new book series, one book at a time, except when we are on Indy Mission, where we are covering The Game in the Night by Javi Nové. So before we get into this final section of sex and darkness... Laura has hit her sex threshold for

SPEAKER_00: 0:38

the next three years. I've hit my threshold. I might not be able to watch Bridgerton next year when it comes out.

SPEAKER_03: 0:45

Laura's sex threshold is pretty low, guys, and this one hit it. But before we get into that, Laura, what are you reading, watching, and or enjoying?

SPEAKER_00: 0:54

So I recently read Strange Pictures by Uketsu. Okay, so the cover is cool, but I had heard about this online. People were just raving about it and how unique it was and everything. And I think a lot of the uniqueness is the mystery surrounding the author, because the author is a YouTube personality who does all sorts of weird horror videos, but always appears with a mask and in a black bodysuit, and no one knows who this person is. And they'll sometimes appear in interviews and stuff like that in the mask and bodysuit like I'm holding this up so you can see even like the author photo is that where it's just like a person in a mask and bodysuit and so there's like a lot of confusion surrounding the author themselves and I think that kind of adds to the mystery of the book where Strange Pictures is a Japanese translation uh mystery horror, I guess. I didn't think it was super horrific. I've read Stephen King that has more horror. But I would also say that this would be a horror, just more light horror. But it's a collection of stories about pictures. And as you're reading, you kind of figure out the connection of the pictures to the characters as you go along. And I read it in a very short period of time because it really just draws you in. It's not a big book. It's maybe 200 and some pages, but it really draws you in and you start to kind of get, it's one of those things where it feels like short stories, but not quite. And so I feel like once you start reading one of them, you're like, wait, I have to learn more about what happened. So it was very easy to just consume the whole thing. And I would recommend it. I don't know if it's the as big of a sensation as it has been hyped up to be but I thought it was good I did like it and I also have to admit I am interested in this author now because it's just a little bit creepy to me and I think that's what draws most people into this where they're like what's going on with that author that's a little different so yeah I kind of get the sensation part of it and kind of not but it's I would recommend the book if you're looking for a little bit of light horror and some kind of clever storytelling. Oh,

SPEAKER_03: 3:30

good.

SPEAKER_00: 3:31

I also have been reading for my book... Well, I finished it. For my book club, Persepolis, the Story of a Childhood by Marjane Satrapi. Apologies if I pronounce the name wrong. And this is a graphic novel that's a memoir about the... life of the author growing up in Iran and during a lot of the Iranian revolution and her, the Islamic revolution and the journey that she goes on as a young girl who moves away and then comes back to the area that she grew up in. And it was a really great memoir. I really appreciated it a lot. Our book club, discussed it and we had some new members so we didn't get like a ton of discussion on the book itself but I highly recommend it to other people because I took a lot away from it and learned some things. And at our book club, the leader of the discussion, she passed out some information about the revolution itself, just some history on it and everything, because even though this was about that time, it was very much like a memoir. So you're getting the author's experience, being a young girl and being like, well, I want to have a Michael Jackson shirt and I want Nikes. For me, growing up in the Midwest, I didn't learn a lot of things about this section of world history. Because why would they want to share that? Because they don't want to make the U.S. look bad. How dare they? So obviously we have to, you know, not talk about those things in history books. We just won't mention it. But yeah, I think it was a really interesting book. And I kind of appreciate... authors who choose to tell their stories via graphic novel because it makes stories a little more accessible, especially when it's covering such like heavy things of a recent time. I think that it's a really unique way to draw people in who may not seek out information about that specific topic because I know I probably would not have thought to pick up a memoir about a young girl during this time.

SPEAKER_03: 5:52

Right. Yeah, it's interesting how... I feel like graphic novels are never as hyped as they should be because it is a very unique way of telling a story. And the artwork

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

brings you in. good medium to tell stories and that we need to, especially like with history, it's the perfect way to show some of these things. So yeah, I really appreciated that book and I was really glad that they chose it for our book club. I can't remember what the other choice was. There was a couple of graphic or there were a couple of graphic novels that were available for options, but Persepolis was chosen, and I'm really glad that it was very, very good. And then for watching, I watched Mickey 17. Oh, how was that? I loved it. It was so quirky, and Robert Pattinson... He had the most adorable little accent in the movie, and I think he just did a really great job acting in his role as Mickey. And it was just a really cute movie, in my opinion. And cute, quirky, doing some weird things. I really liked it. And I think... People were a little too harsh in their critiques of it. I thought it had good reviews. Did it? Oh, I saw people online that were like, this isn't a very good movie. And I was like, oh, I thought it looked good. And so when I watched it, I was just like pleasantly surprised because I had... I think kind of low expectations going into it, but Robert Pattinson was so good and he was so cute with his little voice. And then there was cute little aliens that I loved so much. And it was just a delight. I really enjoyed it. 78%

SPEAKER_03: 8:03

on Rotten Tomatoes. So I guess it was middling reviews, but Hey, Laura liked

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

it. I saw some people online that were not the biggest fans, but it was, i i don't know i really liked it i thought it was fun and i kind of appreciate things like that that have that like weird like quirkiness to them it kind of gave me vibes of like jojo rabbit and stuff like that you know that are a little bit different you know what i mean and a little bit folksy almost even though this was like a sci-fi thing it still almost had like a folksy feel to it i don't know how to describe it

SPEAKER_03: 8:38

Well, and like, I don't know. I like it because at least it's original. Like there, there've been a couple.

SPEAKER_00: 8:43

I mean, it's based on a book.

SPEAKER_03: 8:44

well yeah but like that's still like original where it's not like it's

SPEAKER_00: 8:48

not a

SPEAKER_03: 8:49

remake of like

SPEAKER_00: 8:50

we're doing another Pride and Prejudice right like it's just like an actual for the love of God no

SPEAKER_03: 8:56

like it's an actual movie about something that's unique and different and like

SPEAKER_00: 9:00

we're doing a live action Lion King 2 for the love of God stop with the live actions

SPEAKER_03: 9:07

yeah I mean you can just change the ending of Lilo and Stitch in a way that

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

doesn't in a way that's really

SPEAKER_03: 9:14

problematic Hawaiian people. So like, yeah, I like that it's original and like it's something different. So and Bong Joon-ho is amazing. So like everything. So

SPEAKER_00: 9:27

I was also just kind of surprised because I guess I'm not used to Robert Pattinson playing more of like a cutesy, funny role. He takes on kind of serious roles usually, which I think he's a pretty good actor. People kind of think too much of him as being edward in twilight and he actually is he's got some acting chops like we need to give our boys credit because he's very good i

SPEAKER_03: 9:52

think a lot of people actually think he's like kind of prestigey i think people think he's a little really full of himself maybe that

SPEAKER_00: 9:58

could be it

SPEAKER_03: 9:59

like there's a weird thing where someone was talking about it recently like our day and age we don't like people who are a little like who seem like they want to be like big, you know, like Timothee Chalamet is really big right now, but he even said like, I want to be great. I want to be the best. I really don't like earnestness in this day

SPEAKER_00: 10:19

and age. And the thing is too, I feel like we have created a culture where everyone's supposed to be extremely modest, quote unquote, supposed to be extremely modest. And so when people are proud of themselves for doing something or like acknowledge like, yeah, I did a really good job and that it almost feels a little off. Yes. You know what I mean? It's funny you mention that because I was listening to Good Hang, the podcast with Amy Poehler, or it's Amy Poehler's podcast, and she had on Dakota Johnson. And Dakota... It was an interesting interview because I don't really know that much about Dakota Johnson. And she was mentioning, like, Madame Webb and how she won the Razzie for worst actress and everything. And you could tell she was a little peeved about it. And she was like, I don't know what I was supposed to do at that point because I had signed on for this movie and then a bunch of stuff was changed and I was kind of stuck with it and all this stuff. And so you could tell she was a little peeved by the reception of it and everything and winning the Razzie. But then she also, you know, was talking about her other work and she mentioned... I did a really good job and I thought I did awesome and all this stuff. And I had that same reaction just kind of being like, oh, that's odd to just talk yourself up like that. Dakota Johnson.

SPEAKER_03: 11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 11:34

But you know what?

SPEAKER_03: 11:35

You should be

SPEAKER_00: 11:36

proud

SPEAKER_03: 11:36

of

SPEAKER_00: 11:36

stuff that you do.

SPEAKER_03: 11:37

right like and I think that that's kind of the thing is I don't think that there's anything I think we kind of like put actors on this weird like you have to be the happy medium but also people

SPEAKER_00: 11:47

and also to be like bastions of goodness you know where it's like can never you know take credit for anything you always always have to be caring and putting all your money into charity and everything.

SPEAKER_03: 11:59

Well, and like Dakota Johnson was raised in the industry. Like she is a Nepo baby.

SPEAKER_00: 12:04

For sure. Huge Nepo baby. Like Antonio Banderas was her stepdad.

SPEAKER_03: 12:10

Melanie Griffith was her mom.

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

Her mom. Don Johnson was her dad. Like she's been around celebs forever.

SPEAKER_03: 12:16

Forever. And so I do think like, it's one of those things where it's like, okay, good for her. I can honestly say that like, I don't like to go to Johnson's acting skills, but I'm also not her main like people who would love her. So I think that's also fine, but she gets to be earnest and she gets to like what she does. And honestly, I'm not her biggest fan for acting, but I do think it's funny that she's an incredibly confrontational person. And it's very funny to see that in a woman who is part of Hollywood, who is supposed to be, who's kind of like beige and acting and laid back. And if I know that she's a very controversial, person in real life it's like

SPEAKER_00: 12:51

here's the thing I kind of took away from the I kind of took a few things away from that interview that podcast interview where she's actually kind of funny like she's oh yeah very sarcastic and I was not expecting

SPEAKER_03: 13:05

that she's the one who called out Ellen I think I've talked

SPEAKER_00: 13:08

that was hilarious that was very confrontational but at the same time I think people think that that was funnier than it was I think she was very serious about it like Ellen I was not invited.

SPEAKER_03: 13:18

No, she said, Ellen, I invited you because you made such a big deal about it the last time. Well, and I think I've talked about it on the podcast before. She went on Jimmy Kimmel and their next door neighbors and their other neighbor came up to talk to them and they're like, hey, neighbor. And she was like, did you call the cops on my car that's in my drive? And Jimmy Kimmel was like, and it became very obvious, like, that's what happened. And she was like, well, they keep annoying me because they keep telling me that, like, I have my grandfather's antique truck in my yard and they said it's an eyesore and I'm like, well, just look away. It's in my yard. So she's just... kind of this person who's like i'm going to tell it like it is and it's

SPEAKER_00: 13:59

well she does too because you know amy does this thing on her podcast where she talks to people who are like very close with the person she's about to interview and asks them like if you were doing the interview what questions would you ask and so she had on another actor who is good friends with dakota johnson who is also on parks and rec um but he was saying like you should ask her like And he said this in all earnestness, so I kind of felt a little bad when Dakota had this response. So he wanted to know, like, what actors did she look up to growing up? Because she, you know, was around such famous people, you know, like, it'd be such a, like, weird thing to be like oh it was my mom and dad you know there's so many important actors around her to kind of know like which ones did she admire well Dakota when Amy asked her that she says is that seriously what he said and Amy was like uh yeah and it's one of those deals where it's like you can talk about something beforehand and like acknowledge like oh I really like this and then somebody comes on and you're mentioning that thing and they're like I hate that. And then you kind of just shut down for a minute where you're like, hmm. okay mm-hmm don't want to mention it and it was a little bit awkward because before they got Dakota on Amy had been talking to this other actor and saying like oh that's a great question and when Dakota called it out and was like did he seriously ask that what a lame question to ask and I was a little bit shocked and I think Amy was caught off guard too and didn't really know what to say and then kind of was just like well you know like what but who would you say and And it was interesting to me that Dakota would just like call it out and be like, that's a lame question to ask somebody like me who's just around tons of celebrities, like come up with something a little deeper. And I was like, bold of her to do that, honestly.

SPEAKER_03: 16:03

Yeah. So I do think she's a very confrontational person, which is like, it's interesting. And I think that that's kind of, I think maybe like what people miss out on when they're looking at earnestness or looking at someone who's like confrontational or in your face, it's like, well, what is like, that's such a unique perspective. That's not something we see often. So like, what can we learn from that? When he was going on, he wanted to do like a thing where it's all these screaming fans at him. And then he's like, they're all screaming. He's at this press junket. And then he just goes home and he goes into a basement and there are like fans in cages and he just screams back at them. Getting used to like getting all those frustrations out. And then he's like, and then I left and like Zac Efron walked in. It's like, that's so dark, but that's very funny for someone who grew up in that kind of spotlight.

SPEAKER_00: 17:08

It's also like you don't expect that kind of thing from people like him. You know what I mean? I kind of like those type of situations where people surprise me a little bit. I don't want to be super surprised. I don't want to know really bad, dark details about people. But things like that, I think those kind of surprises are fun. Right, exactly. And honestly, that movie was a good surprise for me because I'm not, like I said, not used to him doing quirkier roles. So it was fun. And then I've also watched Love on the Spectrum season three. Oh, how's that going? What a cute show. What a cute show. It's really adorable. And it then led me into like the Talk to Me Sis podcast, which is a couple of the mothers of some of the people who are on Love on the Spectrum, the documentary. And that has been interesting just to kind of learn the backstory of some of the people who were on the show and like what their journey was to get a diagnosis and, you know, like receive services at school, what their schooling was like, et cetera, et cetera. So that, podcast has been interesting but the show itself is just so cute and i really like that show i there's been a lot of controversy about a particular person who was on it uh who's been on it since season one where in the first season she very much did not understand like how to start a relationship she was very much wanting a relationship but I think she was so like unaware of like how to tell her feelings how to show her feelings in order to move to like the next step to like get a second date or something that immediately on the first date she kissed the guy and said that she loved him and this was another person who was on the spectrum who was also you know very much wanting a relationship and so When she got home after that first date, she was kind of like talking with her family and she's like, I think I made a mistake. I don't think I love him. And so then she had to, you know, break the news to this guy like, I don't think I love you. And he was very like upset and everything. And so then she was kind of throughout that time. the rest of that season and into the next season, more about like taking it slow. She kept mentioning taking it slow and everything. But then she ended up being in a relationship with another guy and she was then had decided, you know, she was ready to move on to the next step. She wanted to have a physical relationship. And in season three, the one that has most recently come out, she was very open about wanting to have a physical relationship. And I'm not going to lie, people have kind of made her out to be a villain online because she ended up breaking up with the guy that she was with because he did not want to pursue a physical relationship until after marriage. And you know what? That's his right. And she was respectful of that. She was like, you know what? She never pressured him or anything, but she broke up with him. And there was, I will say, there was a thing that she... They had had several confrontations about this topic because she was like, you know, it's really important to me to be physical with someone before I move further in the relationship. And I think that's a mature stance. But she's very much involved in animation. She's a very talented animator. And she teaches animation also. And she had created for their anniversary a short clip where... a couple of characters who were we think her and the boyfriend at the time were in bed under the covers having sex and it made the boyfriend very uncomfortable and she so that I think kind of was difficult for a lot of people who are viewing the show to know like what's going on here. They felt she was kind of pressuring him. And I think a lot of it is we don't understand the way that things are edited for the show, especially in documentaries. We're not getting the full picture. We're just getting snippets of possibly months of relationships. Right. But we don't know what's happened in the year that we haven't seen these people. So it's difficult. And I also think, too, you know, watching previous seasons, I knew that there was some, I don't want to say hardships, but there were some barriers in terms of knowing what was appropriate to say and knowing when it was appropriate to do certain things for this woman and for the person she was in a relationship with. So I think that trying to communicate where they both were at was a struggle for the two of them but it was really interesting to me the reception that she has been getting online where a lot of people have kind of villainized her for breaking up with her boyfriend because she wanted to have a physical relationship and she has since entered into a relationship with someone else and it seems to be going well from what they've said on the podcast that I was listening to so that's great but I think the reception online is weird

SPEAKER_03: 22:46

Do you think that there's like a weird because we've talked about this before, especially with love on the spectrum, this weird infantilization of people with disabilities? I do think that exists. Expect them to like, well, you do love them. So why would a physical relationship matter? And it's like, well, adult people have these types of conflicts all the time and make the decisions that they're making. And it's not vilified. It's just two adults making a decision of what works for them.

SPEAKER_00: 23:13

Correct. Yeah, I agree. I do think that that is a lot of it where unfortunately people who have any type of neurodivergence or are developmentally disabled are often...

SPEAKER_03: 23:28

I forgot if you said that they were developmentally disabled or just neurodivergent, so apologies. They

SPEAKER_00: 23:34

have autism. I don't believe that they're... I think it's just neurodivergence as far as I know. But I was just throwing in developmentally disabled because I know that that's also a group of people who... are often infantilized and should not be because they are adults. But I think that is a lot of it where people want to just assume that, and this is not me, like obviously asexual people deserve the right to exist and everything, but I think it's harmful to assume that people who are neurodivergent or developmentally disabled are asexual all the time. Right. I'm not saying that there aren't asexual people who are disabled or have neurodivergence, but...

SPEAKER_03: 24:21

Yeah, I don't know. People say, I love you too fast all the time. People decide that they want a physical relationship that isn't up to the standards of others. It's very weird to decide that that's a villainous standpoint instead of that's just an adult person that we're seeing having... unique view of the world make a decision that it's very similar to many other people in the world so

SPEAKER_00: 24:45

yeah and i definitely feel like of all the people who were on the show i mean autism definitely is a spectrum and i feel like this woman for sure to me was at one end of the spectrum where she seemed to she seems incredibly successful and that her struggles in my mind with her neurodivergent seem very much related to communication and like kind of understanding appropriateness of things because she seems highly intelligent. And that's not to say that other people on the show are not intelligent. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that when we're talking about the way that people on the show are viewed, I think there is a lot of infantilizing that happens. And these are adults. I mean, these are people in their 20s and 30s. They want to have sex. They want to have partners. They want to get married and have kids. So, yeah. But it's also one of those things, too, where the show is a documentary, but at the same time, we're getting a lot of, like, cutesy music and stuff like that. And I said at the beginning of this rant, like, this is a good show. Like, I really like it. Yeah. it also is a show where like I've felt validated watching it because, you know, I have a sibling with a developmental disability and it is at times like watching my own life, seeing some of these interactions with these family members and especially, you know, seeing some of the sibling interactions that has been like very interesting to me because I'm like, Yeah, I know exactly how they feel, some of the joy that they get from their sibling and how the laughter at some of the hilarious things that are mentioned or what have you. It very much feels like a reflection of my own life at times watching that show. And I also appreciate at times when the parents would share stories of the often struggles that they had to go through in their own relationships. their relationship with each other, just having a child who had different needs. And that is hard as someone who grew up in a similar type of household to have to contemplate those things, knowing like, oh, my parents went through a lot of hard times that I didn't even realize. So I do think that show is very much worth watching just to, you know, kind of open up doors like that for people to recognize the different things that are going on in people's lives. Hold on just a second.

SPEAKER_03: 27:28

No, I think that that's a really good point. And it's one of those, it's a yes and type of show. Yes, this is giving a lot of good visibility. And the

SPEAKER_00: 27:37

awareness is important.

SPEAKER_03: 27:39

Yes. And people have to be able to check their own biases on what they're coming into the show expecting to see. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 27:47

I know like just myself and like my own experience, it's been a unique experience. thing to grow up and I even have to check myself at times interacting with my sibling like knowing like my sibling is 30 years old and even though they are very much into like things that would be considered younger the same time They're 30 years old. They want to do things that adults do because they're 30. They don't want to be clumped in with the kids all the time and do all those types of things. So it's something that I think we have to look at individuals and their specific needs and also think about even people who are not neurodivergent or developmentally disabled have unique needs to that we often overlook. Like I think about myself and I'm like, Laura, you love Disney. You love like I'll just sit down and watch a Disney movie. Like I'll watch Elemental or Up or whatever just for fun. And I love Star Wars and stuff like that. Like I watch lots of things that would be associated with like kids and no one's infantilizing me. They're like, get out there and go to work. The amount

SPEAKER_03: 29:07

of like kids And I think that that's fine. Like, I'm right cool

SPEAKER_00: 29:25

with that kind of stuff, just because I, I think. Why can't we experience joy? If certain things bring you joy, just go for it. Especially if you're not

SPEAKER_03: 29:36

taking it away from children. Laura's not walking into a Disney store and throwing children out of the way so she can get an elemental start. You're just enjoying something that's meant to

SPEAKER_00: 29:46

be enjoyed. I went to Disney in the fall with my sister-in-law and my niece and nephew. I was not like, excuse me, I have to go first. You can't meet this character. It's me first. Exactly. You're reasonable

SPEAKER_03: 30:05

about it. Don't be an idiot.

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

But I think it's also, you know, when we're talking about infantilizing groups, recognize that, like Hannah said, yes and. We can look at a show and recognize the importance of the visibility that it brings and the awareness, but also need to look at the people involved and recognize people are not a monolith. And also people in the show are adults. So, Hannah, what have you been reading, watching, and or enjoying? Well,

SPEAKER_03: 30:40

for listeners on the pod and a small preview, we're about to have Jordan Efueko on the pod to talk about The Maid and the Crocodile, which takes place in her Raybearer universe, but does not necessarily deal with the same characters. Raybearer is a duology. So I've been listening to the audiobooks of Raybearer and Redemptor to kind of get caught up because they I owned Raybearer. I really wanted to read these books and I was like, well, I bet I could fit all three in. Like the first two are definitely...

SPEAKER_00: 31:12

You and I are on the same track because I'm in the middle of

SPEAKER_03: 31:15

those two. I'm loving it. I just finished Redemptor today and I freaking love these books. Like these are so amazing. Like everyone just go read these books because they're so important. They're so fascinating. There's such like a depth of telling like... So Jordan takes from West African cultures to build these worlds. They're just beautifully created. Tarisai is one of my favorite main characters I think I've ever met. So Tarisai is a young girl at the beginning of the book. She was born from a wish from her mother, who she calls the Lady. And she was kind of created to... right the wrongs of her mother uh and she was told to kill the crown prince of this world that she lives in and she gets sent to this children's palace but Teresa has been like starved of love and affection her entire life because she was only built to kill this person her mom literally calls her um oh I'm blanking on what she calls her but um uh like me of me pretty much i forget what the specific language is but she doesn't even use her real name uh with tarisai and um tarisai's father is like this being who um and this is all at the beginning of the book so i'm not ruining much but like he said in the beginning of the book he made sure that he got to name her because he didn't trust her mom to give her like a proper name that was her own And so you have all of these like deep, deep traumas. And she starts, she starts like loving this crown prince who is trying to build this unity, like this unit of people where he could no longer die unless it comes from one of these people. So it has so much in it. The second book is so amazing. It deals with stuff like these are YA books. They're meant for like 15 to 17 year olds, I would say. Maybe 14 in the first book because like a lot of these types of books you can start a little bit younger and then they age

SPEAKER_00: 33:21

I would say 14 is that like 8th grade I feel like that's probably appropriate usually

SPEAKER_03: 33:27

yeah like 13 14 I would say for the first book the second book has some like deeper stuff but I still think 13 or 14 is perfect

SPEAKER_00: 33:33

I'm not very far in the second book

SPEAKER_03: 33:35

so but no spoilers for the second book because it would spoil everything that happens in the first book but I will say one of the huge themes in this book that really speaks to me personally is just like the difference between guilt and conviction of like your guilt and not being able to do enough and be enough can sometimes hold you back from doing the things you need to do in the world and accepting the things you can't do. So if like you're constantly thinking about I'm not doing enough, I'm not enough, it can hold you back from attempting to write things that you actually can have control over, the things that you could possibly have an effective change for. And the book made me cry because that's something like I've been struggling with in the past year is I think I've been holding myself back from doing good to be perfect and I don't think that that is a good thing it's why I am in therapy again why I am on anxiety meds but like it's so important and like I love that these books are meant for like 13 to 16 year olds because I think that that's really important for kids to hear at this time in their lives when like they're in high school and they're trying to make very big decisions in their life like I wish I had like a book like this because I was reading about Sarah Dessen's Sad Girl thing.

SPEAKER_00: 34:58

Or just like classics where you're

SPEAKER_03: 35:00

like Jane Eyre. Or this is like it looks at different types of love and different types like it's just there's so much beauty in it. I just started The Maid and the Crocodile so I can't wait to see what changes from the previous books because I just love it all. I'm a huge fan. Everyone go read these books and listen when we have Jordan on the pod to talk about the maid and the crocodile. So I did specifically reach out to Laura on these and I was like, Libro FM is having a deal.

SPEAKER_00: 35:32

I'm so glad that we're able to get her on. I have wanted to get her on for a long time. And then Nomina Forno, we had her on, which go check out Nomina's books as well. had also suggested like check out jordan's books like you would really like them if you like mine so i'm so glad that we're going to be getting the opportunity to interview her

SPEAKER_03: 35:52

was right i believe nomina blue-eyed samurai and her books big fans of both so uh so i'm listening to those i also just read asunder by kirsten hall this was an arc i got off neck alley it's been out for a while i've been a little bit behind on my arcs um this one is a very unique book Where people get to like choose their own gods who they worship and the gods kind of speak to them and give them certain powers. So like it follows Caris. She's a death speaker who she like. made this deal with this god who was like a three-phase hundred wing unforgiving like entity where she can speak to the dead for a certain contract so she can make money off of it because people hire her to figure out like what happened with people and all these things but she will be sacrificed pretty soon because her contract has been going on for quite a while and she gets assigned to this incident where all these people washed up on a shore and she She accidentally finds this secret cave where they were doing certain types of illegal running. And she runs into a man who is in danger of dying, except he utilizes this type of magical power to keep him in the moment before his death. And she somehow binds him to herself in order to try to save him for money. And then he gets stuck in her shadow. And it is a wild... World building book. I really like it. It's really cool world building. It's very unique and like everything that happens. I will say that I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it quite a bit, but I thought that Kirsten Hall, the author, did a little bit too much sometimes where there was just so much going on that it was hard to keep track of like. It

SPEAKER_00: 37:46

was like information overload.

SPEAKER_03: 37:48

Yeah. And like there were so many characters and like, so that's the setting of it. And it's such an effective setting. But then we go like into the city where she's living and we meet this one character and then we have to go to another town and then we have to go to her hometown for a while and then we're back to the original town and then we're traveling. through these under and like there's so much scene setting that i kind of wish we had had like more Like less like scenes and more like flow for the books because it's like only 427 pages and it moves around a lot. So there were certain times where and I will admit this book took me a while to read just because it was on my Kindle and like so many other things are going on. So like sometimes I got a little bit lost in the details because it was so like random and how many different places.

UNKNOWN: 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 38:38

We moved around. But overall, it was a really effective story. I liked some of the characters. There is a character from her hometown who gets blessed by a god. Small spoiler. And she has a moment where she like... has never left her hometown so she has to go into these big worlds and she's like been given this thing that's very important in her town and then she goes into these other spaces and everyone kind of treats her like she's useless and it's like very hard on her and i really appreciated that character because i don't think it's one we get to see very often like with how vulnerable it made her like i think a lot of times when we see characters like that they're kind of just like Sure. But it was... Like this book was very good. I enjoyed a lot of it. I just wish there were like small changes made because then I would have adored this book. So that's another one I've been reading. And then for watching, I recently rewatched Gone Girl.

SPEAKER_00: 40:05

Oh, okay. How was that?

SPEAKER_03: 40:07

For double feature. It's a long movie. Like that movie is so long. But I think

SPEAKER_00: 40:12

I haven't watched it since I think I'm close to when it came out.

SPEAKER_03: 40:16

I watched it in theaters and I hadn't rewatched it. I've listened to a couple podcasts in the interim because Because a lot of people who love movies love Gone Girl. I mean, it's a David Fincher film. He did Zodiac and all those types of things. Lots of people love those. I

SPEAKER_00: 40:31

think Gone Girl also is one of those books that was like, I kind of blame Gone Girl for a lot of the thriller genre. You do have

SPEAKER_03: 40:38

a lot of resentment

SPEAKER_00: 40:39

for Gone Girl. Here's the thing. I loved it when it came out. That was one of the books that I read in college. And I credit that with like... keeping me in reading, honestly, because I loved that one. But I think that it was one of those things people were chasing Gone Girl, like everyone wanted to be the next Gone Girl. And so it's not Gone Girl's fault. It's not Gillian Flynn's fault.

SPEAKER_03: 41:04

But it is something we blame Gone Girl for.

SPEAKER_00: 41:06

But I will blame Gone Girl. I won't blame Flynn, but I blame Gone Girl.

SPEAKER_03: 41:11

But you know what? That girl doesn't care because she gone. The

SPEAKER_00: 41:14

girl who is gone.

SPEAKER_03: 41:15

It is the

SPEAKER_00: 41:17

girl who is gone. I

SPEAKER_03: 41:18

do really, I think that movie is really good

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

upon

SPEAKER_03: 41:35

rewatch. with like a risque college girl she had the no offense to this woman no hate to her she had the biggest nipples I've ever seen a woman have I remember I was so distracted in the theaters where I was like what's happening so like it brought me back to law school days but it is a really good adaptation I think when I originally saw it I was like so disappointed that they like cut out the one girl character who like Amy convinced was like convinced her to like wear wear her hair like her and did all these things. And then she was stalking her. I always was like super mad that they got rid of that character because that showed that like she was a devious person overall. But and so like putting myself back in that headspace, I think when I originally watched it was like, this is not a faithful adaptation. And later in life, I'm like, no, it was really good. It was really good. So funny that Tyler Perry is in that.

SPEAKER_00: 42:42

I know. But it

SPEAKER_03: 42:45

was

SPEAKER_00: 42:45

great. The movie probably made a ton of money because they probably used like one of the Right.

SPEAKER_03: 42:52

But it was just so well done. I've learned so much about that movie, so re-watching it through that lens was really intense. And it's one of those where... I think it's so good to watch it in 2025 because you're like, yeah, Nick was such an asshole and kind of like he was misogynist. And I think when I originally read the book, I didn't get that flavor as much. And then when I watched the movie originally, I kind of saw it. And now after listening to podcasts and kind of growing as a person, I'm like, oh, no,

SPEAKER_00: 43:22

he's terrible. And the Ben Affleck role is just like, eh. Yeah. I'm not a huge Ben Affleck fan. I mean, me neither.

SPEAKER_03: 43:29

That also kind

SPEAKER_00: 43:30

of sours me.

SPEAKER_03: 43:32

Yeah. So I think like he definitely, I mean, he did a good job of creating that character because that character is not great. Yeah, it's really interesting to revisit that property. So highly recommend. It's a good movie. It's a really good adaptation. What was the other part of the double feature? So the other one was Sleeping with the Enemy with Julia Roberts, which is a 1990s movie. Oh my gosh, Laura. It is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen because it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00: 44:06

Is it trying to be funny or no? No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03: 44:09

So this is a movie where Julia Roberts has a husband who's abusive and so the beginning of the movie is like my wife can't swim and that is how he does his line readings because so much had to be ADR because they're like sitting by the ocean but like he can't ADR to save his life um which is where you're like trying to talk over what you said in the movie uh later and so he's like he and his wife go out on a boat and she can't swim so she falls over the side of the boat and you find out that she has been taking swimming lessons and she fakes her own death um Um, She is really bad at faking her own death because like she leaves so many crumbs. Like it is a very 90s movie. I would say it's like it fit into the Gone Girl theory of like faking your death and doing all these things.

SPEAKER_00: 45:00

I was wondering how it tied in, but you cleared that

SPEAKER_03: 45:02

up. Yeah, but she runs away and immediately her next door neighbor is like this college professor and 90s movies are wild because like you and I just talked about like Gone Girl and how like misogyny is like underlying. Her love interest at one point is like, your name isn't really Sarah. I know that your husband did something to you and I deserve to know your real name. And it was like, no, you don't. You don't know this woman.

SPEAKER_00: 45:27

Why do you need to know her real name so much?

SPEAKER_03: 45:29

Why would that be a thing? And he was like, my sister-in-law was like, you know, upon rewatch, this man is a huge creep. And I'm like, yeah, but he's supposed to be the love interest. There's also a four minute montage of them just trying on clothes in the drama department for his college and dancing around no reason random and the man who plays her husband is like so old and he has the worst like my wife is mine you know like his line reading is insane and like he they made him act a lot with his face and he was not skilled enough to do that so it was a very funny movie to watch I was dying at the beginning because They have Julia Roberts digging for clams. And she like has this bucket. And they obviously like had her on a soundstage with like a green screen behind her. Because they have these pelicans right behind her. And Laura, they are like two feet from her. Where any person in a real world situation would be like, I don't want these pelicans near me. But she's just like digging for clams. It's so funny. It's weird. So yeah, highly recommend that movie. Everyone go watch it. okay uh it's on hulu so it is from 1991 one of

SPEAKER_00: 46:47

these movies was really great and the other one hannah was like it's terrible and hilarious go watch it

SPEAKER_03: 46:53

uh she at one point she is with a love interest and she goes i just need a few minutes to freshen up and she takes a bath a bath that's a few minutes She comes out with her hair tried. I'm like, she tried her hair. That's rude. it's so funny so the love interest is he's a drama professor and so what her she thinks her husband's I'm ruining so much of this movie but it made me laugh so hard her husband has like OCD so he like needs all the cans facing the same way and he needs all the towels

SPEAKER_00: 47:31

so like stereotypical OCD

SPEAKER_03: 47:33

same size and stuff like that so she's in the house and she wonders if he's there and like the first time she opens the cabinets all the jars are fine but the second time she like opens them And they're all facing it. She's like, oh, no. You change them within 10 seconds. And then she, like, tries to, like, at first, A, her husband... has sex with her to the shining soundtrack song like you know the instrumental one which is so creepy so she like that's a red flag in itself right so she puts on the music and it's there and she's like haha love interested it as a joke she said she hated that sound and then she sees that the towels have all been fixed and she's like oh no and she goes downstairs the cans are all facing forward and then she goes to run out the door the boot box has been moved in front of the door and i was like could you imagine because like in the reality of this film This man is just running around the house like fixing things and

SPEAKER_00: 48:27

moving the box. And I like made the joke where it's like... I love that that's a nightmare that like someone going around and organizing things is a nightmare. Like I would pay to have someone come to my house and do this.

SPEAKER_03: 48:40

But I made the joke where he's like, he's running around being like, I heard you like the theater now.

UNKNOWN: 48:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:49

So yeah, it was a

SPEAKER_03: 48:50

very funny movie. That poor man could not act with his face and they made him do that, which is just unfair. So his wife could not swim. So should we talk about another man who likes the theater and drama?

SPEAKER_00: 49:06

Lots of drama.

SPEAKER_03: 49:08

Let's dive

SPEAKER_02: 49:09

back

SPEAKER_03: 49:09

in. They came in the night. I do like that this is called a why choose paranormal romance, which means there's just lots of sex with lots of different people. So good for you. Oh,

SPEAKER_01: 49:21

it's

SPEAKER_03: 49:21

called a

SPEAKER_01: 49:22

what?

SPEAKER_03: 49:22

It's called a why choose paranormal romance, which is like you don't have to choose the love interest. You get all. You get all of them.

SPEAKER_00: 49:30

And we

SPEAKER_03: 49:30

do. We do. We do. I

SPEAKER_00: 49:33

thought you said YA

SPEAKER_03: 49:35

romance and I

SPEAKER_00: 49:37

was like, what? Excuse me? I do. do not think so. As you take

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

out the giant dildo.

SPEAKER_00: 49:44

I'm just like, are you kidding me? There's like mentions of knots. I

SPEAKER_03: 49:49

like that I went for a dildo and Laura's like, knots, Hannah. Last time we left, a man had been martyred at poor Izzy's hands. And she is feeling really guilty she is feeling terribly guilty in this section she feels guilty because like nin is trying to come in and take care of her and nin's mom has just been signed away to this horrible uh like right-handed right-hand man to octavius so she thinks nin blames her and she's like well she should um and she's really just feeling sorry for herself saying she should have known Octavius was this bad. All these types of things. A horrible situation. She didn't know vampires existed three months ago. How would she know he was just this evil? Also,

SPEAKER_00: 50:43

the timeline of this book. We're in books with wild timelines, honestly, because we went from Legendborn to this and I'm like, how much time has passed?

SPEAKER_03: 50:52

Where are we at? It could be five hours. You just don't know. I have no idea. I'm

SPEAKER_00: 50:56

like,

SPEAKER_03: 50:57

are we still in the same week? so sel comes in and they both have sel the vampire and they're both sel there's too many similarities um and sel comes in and he's like princess you need to train and be worth your while and

SPEAKER_00: 51:13

she's like i just took a shower

SPEAKER_03: 51:15

and he's like i don't care and she's like okay i guess and i was like i too would hate working out after a shower that sounds like put

SPEAKER_00: 51:21

your foot down you don't have to work out

SPEAKER_03: 51:25

no one can force you to work out also she should be like you have heard me shower you decided to make the like most inconvenient time

SPEAKER_00: 51:33

he's always creepily listening outside her door so right he probably

SPEAKER_03: 51:38

has super hearing he should be able to hear it um but anyway

SPEAKER_00: 51:42

i do love how he calls her out on like she's like i know how to defend myself he's like No, you don't. You suck at it. Like, I

SPEAKER_03: 51:49

kicked your ass so many times. Vampires, you idiot. Like, it's different. So they go and they fight and she is bad at it. Yeah, quite bad. But then Nin comes to get her and she's like, your parent is like asking for you. And Nin and Izzy have a heart to heart where, you know, Izzy apologizes and Nin's like, I knew what I was getting into. I don't think you actually knew what you were getting into. So like this was a decision you have nothing to feel guilty

SPEAKER_00: 52:18

about. You missed the part though, doesn't she when she's like with Sel doesn't she feed off of him at one point

SPEAKER_03: 52:25

oh yeah because like there's been so much action and she's so weak that he does have her feed off of him so

SPEAKER_00: 52:35

that she can get stronger

SPEAKER_03: 52:37

and she does she always likes feeding off blood

SPEAKER_00: 52:42

sorry I just had to mention that

SPEAKER_03: 52:45

because Laura loves talking about vampires I

SPEAKER_00: 52:49

love vampires That's

SPEAKER_03: 52:53

me. They also do a rundown of Izzy's little sexcapade with Darcy and Tatum. And, you know, they kind of just head towards Zaziel and Zaziel and Izzy have a heart where she's like, well, I didn't leave because I didn't want to leave without you. And Zaziel's like, well, you have to get out. You have to protect yourself or like you have to get harder and play the game. and Zaziel points out that Izzy is descended from both sides heaven and hell coexist kind of like a perfect balance and she can bring the world to its knees

SPEAKER_00: 53:35

I do think it's also interesting too like there's a point and maybe you said this and I was too focused on like remember the vampire feeding but sorry but Zaziel like says something about Like her leaving and she mentions like she's not going to leave without her parent. And Zaziel's kind of shocked by that. Zaziel

SPEAKER_03: 54:00

has been abused horribly so long that they just like want to save Izzy no matter what. And Izzy is like, no, you're my parent. I love you and I want to make sure you're

SPEAKER_02: 54:09

protected.

UNKNOWN: 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:11

Then we shift on over to maybe an hour, maybe five days, who knows, where Nin and Izzy are getting ready for dinner. And this is where Izzy starts trying to find out more about the cathedral so she can get blood from the fountain in there. What's his name? Ja wants her to. Oh, yeah. It's

SPEAKER_00: 54:42

like Electra. What is it? Oh, gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 54:45

Raj or something? I

SPEAKER_00: 54:46

forget. Raj. Raj. Yes, it's Raj.

SPEAKER_03: 54:49

Because Raj asked her to in the last section. We find out that Nin's not really religious, but Octavius is super duper religious, and he loves going to that fountain. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 55:00

and there's this fountain with this eternal being that has this very special blood that ties them to... Particularly Octavian.

SPEAKER_03: 55:09

The internal being was definitely in that chapel when she and Tatum were fucking.

SPEAKER_00: 55:16

I mean, and doesn't say anything.

SPEAKER_03: 55:18

Just sitting there, just

SPEAKER_00: 55:18

like,

SPEAKER_03: 55:20

none of my business.

SPEAKER_00: 55:21

Okay. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 55:25

Yep. Okay. Okay. Yep. Yep. Okay. No questions. Got it. Okay. So, Like Izzy starts saying she has some interest in finding out more about that. Nin did say that she's not really allowed into certain services because of her like place as a damn peer. So that also plays into it. Then they go down to dinner and Izzy starts falling in line with her father and he makes her literally bow before him with her like face to the floor for hours. I mean, he's just a toxic, disgusting. He's a dick. Like he's awful. Yeah, he's terrible. And so she does it. She needs to play along. Then he lets her up and says she has to go feed. And she feeds on this person named Sam, who's a thrall. And so she feeds on her. They have a little sexy sex. And later she talks to Sam about like. being a thrall and we find out that Sam is a sex worker she was a sex worker before this and she signed up for this because it was a lot of money um and it could pay off like her student loans and things like that and she was like well like I know that money corrupts but like at least with this I know how bad it can get and you know I may not remember it she also like notes that sometimes her memory is taken away from her when it is really bad um and so um Izzy asks Sam if it's better if she claims her because if she claims her, no one else can touch her as Octavius's daughter. But she did mention that like sometimes you get money from people if they like you. And she's like, well, I can't get you a diamond encrusted costume for like sex play. So I'm probably not the person. I won't mark you for that. So it's kind of like a discussion of like actually having consent and discussing what's best for the person. I

SPEAKER_00: 57:22

kind of like all of that actually. And I thought it was interesting to just like– There's mentions of like her blood and how it tastes different compared to like the other beings. We know I'm not like super big on vampires. However, this was interesting to me that like there's different like kind of levels and feelings and power that are associated with like the different types of feedings.

SPEAKER_03: 57:46

Which makes sense because really all she's been feeding on are like vampires or Nephilim. So yeah. It's going to taste different to just have normal human blood. I

SPEAKER_00: 57:56

do like, though, that she is always very much concerned about the well-being of people in her surrounding space. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 58:04

Well, and then she has to go meet the eternal being and get the blood from Zem. And so she meets them. They are... horrifying they're like old school vampire it

SPEAKER_00: 58:21

makes me think of like what we do in the shadows

SPEAKER_03: 58:27

what's his name i can't remember i forget his name but like oh he's the he's like falling apart yeah he's not the emperor but like the i forget the baron is the baron yes the baron he's so funny i loved that so much um

SPEAKER_00: 58:42

this is what it makes me think of where it's just like parts

SPEAKER_03: 58:45

of them are falling off they have like a huge flaccid dick and like it's just it's a whole thing and so my husband just walked in and gave me a very strange look um walk back out we are in the middle of something this is important um but she takes some of the blood in the fountain after uh jay like feed it to her and she notes that it's probably filled with hallucinogenics because she has this like out of body like weird experience of burnout And she comes to and Octavian's like, did you see it? The end that awaits us? And you're like, ooh, you're a creepy religious man, aren't you? Which

SPEAKER_00: 59:27

this all very much makes sense to me with the vampire thing because this is all, I feel like, very much tied where vampires have this... like connect deep connection to the blood and their creator and creation and everything so this was very on point for vampires

SPEAKER_03: 59:42

well like she points out that like Octavian thinks that they come from the fallen angels who were sent to like help humans or something and it just got like darkened and things like that so because they're

SPEAKER_00: 59:53

supposed to be like protectors of humans right

SPEAKER_03: 59:56

yes and so she has a moment where she's like I just want my father to be proud of me and he's like well welcome into the fold no that i know you'll do everything i want to do um but we do find out that like is he kind of buys into this religious acts aspect like it's hard not to for her where she feels like a little bit drawn to it with this eternal being

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:18

she's kind of convinced honestly it's one of those deals where it's like you start looking into something and you're like i'm in too deep

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:25

she's like well it kind of makes sense even though i'm just trying to get the blood out for them um And so she is just kind of doing her thing. She's building up, working out at the gym, doing everything she has to to make a connection with Octavius. And... Sorry.

UNKNOWN: 1:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:45

He also at one point she's like talking with him and he's feeding her parent and he says that they have had enough. Oh, yeah. This is sickening because like. Yeah. Yeah. It's really disgusting. And so she like tries to stand up for Zaziel and Zaziel has to step in and be like, don't worry. I'm yours. You control me. It's OK. And we find out that like it's still really hard for Izzy to do this, but she is behind enemy lines right now. So. She also starts talking to Sal more and figuring out that like he's not into all of this as much as he seems to be. He does have like some kind of issues with the way like Dan Pierce or. treated but she gets her first assignment to impress daddy and it's killing a judge who's holding up something for her or for their clan he has like this hearing that he's been putting like off and off and off and he also knows that it's a vampire so he's hiding himself in a fortress deep in the grim heretics area so she has to hide in like hide a cell go to the bunker and get in um we find out of course this man loves a good sex worker so she's able to get in that way um she can enter as a dampier because vampires do still need to be invited in um which is kind of hilarious i do i do always like when you still have those rules like i think that that's a very

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:11

i mean we do get a lot of like classic vampire feel here in this book i feel like even though there are a lot of

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:19

new age, like

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:20

new things happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:22

Um, Well and she does find out that he does have the grim heretics like being the muscle because there's a security guard. I do think it's funny though because all of those security are there and she like walks down this hall and she just drops a welcome mat down because that could like have vampires come in.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:37

I was going to say that was a hilarious thing where it's just like a welcome mat counts. We don't need to.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:42

It's implicit. She drops it. I'm like you think they would be watching the video and be like don't do that. That invites vampires. Right. And she's like I thought that was hilarious. I was like, what? They're terrible at their jobs. And we find out that they are terrible at their jobs. We find out that they are terrible at their jobs. because she just out buys their contract with the grim heretic she's like um would you kill him for me and they're like no we're not gonna kill him for you but we will let you kill him because you paid us more money and she's like oh okay um deal so they just walk out uh she calls him mr fuchsia his name uh i forget his name he's not incredibly

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:23

it's like anastasia but he goes by

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:27

um He goes by Stassi. And so they all head out the door and then it's just a struggle between her and the judge because she let him wait too long after they dazed him. And she ends up killing him by like putting her hands through his eyeballs and into his brain.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:42

It's very much Game of Thrones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:44

And Sel comes

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:46

in. And she's very grossed out by it. And she was like, I still have eyeball on me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:50

Well, I think she vomits. So like, yeah, it's very harrowing. So Sel comes in and he's like, go get some air. I'll clean up. And she goes and she gets more than air. This was shocking. She gets a little bit of bestiality. Is it bestiality if it's a werewolf? These are the questions I asked in this section. I think

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:14

we can say yes it is because there's pause.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:16

If I had a nickel for every time a werewolf-like being fucked a person in a book that I've read this year, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it is weird that it's happened twice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:27

I mean... There's a lot of books like this, I

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:30

think. So she and Raj definitely have sex when he's in a werewolf form.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:37

Lots of claws, lots of hair. He is huge in many ways.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:42

Huge. It's very tight and all those different things. But they finish. He turns back into himself and he's like, wow, that was really good. Then Sel comes up and he's

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:57

like, oh, go ahead. this is that it's just like so sudden i was just like not expecting it where it was just like she's like i just literally think i need a moment i just i just killed someone i just gotta go and then all of a sudden she's like boom sex and you're like what

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:13

you know when the adrenaline is pumping because you realize you're alive laura then it's still pumping in different

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:19

ways i think there'd be some questioning of it though like

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:21

what's happening how oh okay

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:24

um

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:25

But Sel comes upon them after, you know, other things have come and they definitely know each other. Like there are just indications that they were definitely in love at some point in time. And so she leaves with Sel and we find out that Raj is the reason he's a vampire. They were in love. Like Raj started showing up at his door. They started hanging out and he seemed to be like this dark, tortured creature. And then Octavius found out about Sel and said that he had to turn him... Octavian. Oh, Octavian. Sorry. I think I've been calling him Octavius.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:02

And I just saw the name. It's Ekaraj. So it's Raj. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:06

So... Octavian gave Raj an ultimatum like either he would kill his entire family or he had to turn Sel so Sel was turned to a vampire

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:16

which kind of explains some of the like more meh feelings that Sel has about his situation

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:23

yes and he also said like it was really frustrating because once he was turned they were different social structures because Raj was a dampier so it was looked down at the fact that they had a relationship in the first place so it all just became too complicated and Raj left and made the heretics afterwards so

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:37

he

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:37

Abandoned him. But then he's also like, you have to go shower. You smell.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:44

You smell like him.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:45

It's so bad. And so then he brings the head to Octavian to show that she did it. She made it all, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:57

you are my daughter i'm so proud of you he was

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:01

so so proud um and so she keeps training especially with

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:06

the removal of the eyes he's like you did this she's

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:10

like it sounds like she's messy just like you um It's just, yeah, a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:18

This is where it's like a little bit of the like sucking up to Octavian that is necessary. I get it. It was just a little bit like bleh. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:28

And so this is also where she starts questioning self like, hey, you're just not questioning a power structure that benefits you. That's really fucked up. All these different things. And she also gets invited to Nin's family's dinner. And they come in and Marius is there trying to make a claim on Willa because he's like it's really weird where he's like we have to have sex right now because I claim you and it's just like you could have waited till later like technically she had already agreed to this but because he's acting like this Izzy steps in and she's like these are my people I am Octavian's daughter they are part of my crew and you cannot touch them anymore we also find out that she

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:11

becomes a part of the law and then Doesn't Marius claim... nin

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:18

then marius tries to claim nin at the time at that moment he's like well i will is mine he doesn't claim nin quite yet um that's in another chapter but okay she says i claim willa i claim her entire family i'm octavian's daughter that trumps whatever claim you had and she also points to she becomes a lawyer in this book where she's like all of her the vampire rules are important and you cannot make progeny without the person's like approval And Willa has not given that to you. And so then they have dinner. Awkward. Yeah. And then, you know, she gets to go to the sex club finally. Because Octavian is bringing his daughter to a sex club. Real normal stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:08

Yeah. Seems like father-daughter things.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:10

To meet with, like, the siren and the alpha... werewolf and the witches about the Grimm clan and how they've like been doing all this stuff and they need to be taken care of. And it's kind of just like a political thing where they're discussing like how do we handle imports and exports because the Grimm heretics have been stealing everything. And Octavian asks Izzy how she would handle it. And she's very diplomatic in her answer being like, well, you guys will do all of this. And then they're like, well, what will you guys do? And she's like, not for you to be concerned with. And it gives Octavian the like, oh, I can step in and rub a few elbows with this. So he's very impressed with that. And then he sends her off to. have sex with Darcy and Tatum again and during this time they all agree that they are in a relationship but it is open which is good because you know werewolf sex doesn't come around all the time I mean it does here yeah it does you are right but yeah she feels very close to them and it's going great and

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:27

that was what also a very long chapter where there was a lot of puppy stuff

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:33

but I was like puppy

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:34

okay

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:35

they have a lot of nicknames for each other in these books then she I'm not big on nicknames I'm also not big on nicknames I said once that I think someone calling someone else daddy is the funniest thing you could ever put during sexy talk it makes me laugh every time I read it I can't take it seriously this chapter has puppy all over it and puppy um so then we shift over to later in time where she's with the werewolves as they're getting ready for like a shipment to come in um oh and in the last chapter she had had a mascara tube that she dipped in blood and she gave it over oh yeah heretics um so yeah that happened um we also find out in the section that like Octavian stepped in during the Alpha's last fight and made Serena the lead Alpha, and she wouldn't have gotten the position without him, so he's pretty important to them. Mm-hmm. But during this like dock where they're watching the shipment and she's with Tatum, the heretics pop back in and shoot at her. Oh, we also met a Fae in the book. I'm sorry. So much stuff happened.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:44

I was going to say there are Elfin people that are mentioned. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:46

there are Elfin Fae. They're like the Unseelies and they're like behind this barrier that they can't get out. So it's believed that Octavian kind of controls the gateway to that So that's another thing that's kind of up in the air. But yeah, the Grimm heretics come to the wharf because, of course, they do. And they kidnap her. And she's just kind of like, Raj, what's going on? And he's like, well, I needed to have a division to come talk to you. And he starts telling her kind of what his plan is for Octavian. So Octavian cannot die. Every time he dies, he's reused. into the blood in the pool so by giving her the by giving them the blood they can kill off his link to the pool and he cannot be reborn again this is also probably how zuriel and um zazel um

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:46

they had to use like part of her blood though right to

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:50

Oh yeah, he did have to get part of her blood to have connection. Because they

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:54

couldn't obviously get Octavians because he is very careful about not letting people feed from him and stuff like that because he's very paranoid.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:01

Right. And so he has to get blood from her in order to kind of put this through. And this is when she tells Raj about the catacombs and how he can break in and take over. He also kind of tells his side of the story with Sal where he's like, well, I fell in love with him. I was ready to run. I wanted us all to run. But he said no. He couldn't leave his family and they couldn't leave.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:22

And he was like in a very dark space, too, at the time when they met and everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:27

And he just really wanted to die at that time because he was a dampier and he kind of knew that he was, he's like the likelihood of ever being turned into a vampire was so low. And like once Sel became a vampire, it just became too dangerous. So like I had to leave and get out and it did inspire me to try to fight against this. And so he has a little bit of a different view than Sel does. Yeah. And, you know, they kind of just chit chat about

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:55

that. I actually liked Raja's story a little better. I mean,

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:58

Raja's, it's more compelling because he's just like, well, I know how much Sel loved his family. It's been years. Because she's like, well, maybe he'll forgive you if you kind of explain where you were coming from. And he's like, no, it's been years. It's too much water under the bridge. I'm like, yeah, it's been years. So you guys could probably talk about it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And she... He's like, we don't have enough time for sex. And she's like, what a damn shame. So... She's still kind of just hanging out being a subterfuge, like sneaky sneak. She's building rapport with her father, with the Exalted. The Exalted is kind of like this weird being who's like, someone calls for you. And then Sam comes running and she says that Marius is trying to take Nin. He wants to claim

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:52

her as his own. This is where it was.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:54

Okay. Yes. And he's trying to like force Nin pretty much. He's trying to make her... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so they race to get Nin out of the tower so that she can regroup and take care of this while Nin is away. Because if Nin's there, it's just too much of a pressure cooker. There's too much of a chance of Marius taking control over her and doing all these things. So Sel helps get them out and gets her to a safe house with Raj. And for some reason, Izzy is like, I have to stay the night and have sex with Raj. I can't possibly go back

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:46

I just need to mention though isn't the place called like the Flamingo like the Flamingo

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:50

No, they meet at the Flame and Go because that was the sandwich shop that they originally were at. And then they go to wherever his place is. The Flame and Go was the shop. But the place they're staying back to our college days, Laura, was the White Ho. Yes. We used to have a bar called the White Ho and it got shut down probably for just way too much bacteria. Yeah. But anyways. So she stays with him and they have a little smoochy smooch and sexy time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:26

It's more than a smooch.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:28

And she goes back the next day. Marius, and oh, I think at this point, Sel... At one point, Sel did give her cell phones because he trusts her. But one of them is from Octavian and it was monitored. So he sent that one to Darcy's house and Tatum's house so that it looked like she was getting her get on with two people that Octavian would have been fine with.

UNKNOWN: 1:16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:55

But anyway, so she goes back and she kind of has a showdown with Marius where she's just like, I am the daughter of Octavian. I am better than you. You are beneath me and you are not going to act this way. And she kind of brings up all the legal stuff. She

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:12

gets out all the contracts. She gets out all the contracts

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:16

and she's like, you are in violation of so many vampire laws. It's ridiculous. And she does literally rip his heart out and eat it so that he um oh because he was also trying to torture um was this where he was torturing cell um

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:32

um i want we

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:37

i feel like this is i feel like he was torturing cell um

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:41

no i think you're right yeah uh

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:44

oh yeah so they are torturing cell and she um eats his heart and she takes cell as her mate um And so she gets back to her room. She helps him feed off of her. And he's like, this is the best blood I've ever tasted. And they immediately have sex. Always the whiplash of like, you're

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:06

on the brink of death. It's just so fast that it just like shocks me, I think, as a reader, where I was like, how did we get here?

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:12

He was drinking her blood and it was the best thing he ever tasted. Exactly. But

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:17

it's like

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:18

one fluid motion straight into sex. Well, and they have like the angriest, I mean, of course, because because it's cell, but they have like the angriest sex where they're just destroying everything. Yeah. And he's just in it. It's like, you two didn't like each other all that much. This is our enemies to lovers. This is the enemies to lovers. It's a why choose romance. But the next day, her father comes in with Zaziel. And she's kind of just like, they've never come into my apartment. And obviously, like, I've been having sex everywhere. Everything is broken. And, oh, but before. Before that, she gets to talk to her aunt, Zuriel, for the first time. And she asks Zuriel to come back and be bait against Octavian to get him to come out of the towers so that the Grim Heretics can take him down. So it's a whole thing. But the dad, that's when Octavian comes in. He's like, you killed Marius. We have to get him funeral rights. He's owed that. I won't make a big deal about you killing him because he was kind of a rough hang.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:30

He kind of sucked, but whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:32

And I'll see you at the funeral. And then we have a chapter called A Brief Ninterlude where Nin is just being the politest person ever in a safe house where she's just helping people tend bar. Yeah. But she gets these like potions where she's a little bit of a sneaky sneak. And she's like, I'll help deliver these. And she takes it and there's like a cloaking spell. And she feels like there's something going on with Raj that he hasn't really been forthcoming with Izzy about. And she wants to get back to him or get back to Izzy so that she can warn her. And

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:07

she's kind of like sharing some dates to like, oh, this happened. And then this happened. You need to know about Marius had this happen, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:15

Yes. And well, Darcy comes in and Darcy's like, I've come to take you back to the tower. Marius is dead and everything's safe.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:22

Oh, that's who it was. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:23

Raj almost tries to make Nin stay and like, we don't know if it's safe. I want Izzy to be here. And Darcy's like, no, you weirdo. Like, I'm taking her with me. She's not going to be held against her will. And so Darcy takes her back and it's all coming to a swift conclusion because we go to Maurice's funeral and everyone's just like hanging out, doing their last funeral rites. Not caring. Not caring. Yeah. which

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:52

made me wonder like how did this person become this important and like no one cares about them like

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:57

because it's one of those things where it's like the the heartless rise with uh octavian so because he's heartless he went really really high um And so she's like, oh, Stacio, come pray with me. And they're just sitting there praying. And all of a sudden, the grim heretics show up. And they're like, the Aramor clan falls today. We're going to murder everyone. So it's really random because, hey, Zeril didn't need to show up.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:28

I was wondering that, too. Like, what was the point of even mentioning that? But whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:31

Be Zuru. Because Zuru also comes into the room like, you were supposed to be bait outside. What are you doing in here? And they're just like fighting. They're trying to get Izzy to take a potion and get as far away as possible. And all of this stuff is going on. And like Izzy's trying to get Zaziel to leave. It's a whole mess. Everyone's fighting with everyone. The pack

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:58

is on the way. Izzy's trying really hard to like protect people and at the same time like

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:02

watch out. I know. It's like Darcy's there, Tatum's there. Like all the people she's had sex with are all here and she wants to protect them all. But she's also not being super helpful because the heretics are just taking down every one she gets frustrated she's like you're not supposed to take down like the people who are just bystanders like this is awful you can't do this and so she ends up fighting with Octavian because of course she does and he's like flying her here there and everywhere it's like very action-packed sequence where she starts like almost And he ends up killing her where you all think she's dead. And we shoot back into Nin's POV where she's like, oh, my gosh, this is all over. Like everything's going to burn. And then her angel side starts taking over. And she starts burning with like kind of like a phoenix rising from the ashes. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:06

very much so.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:07

And she is pissed. Yeah. And it does say chapter 49 vampire plus Nephilim equals Phoenix question mark. And she ends up killing Octavian. And she is able to because they did cut off his source to the blood. So he's now done. And she sees like the fighting is still going on. Her people are in danger. And so she... shuts it down she's just like nope I am in control and you get to take over who you kill for and so

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:37

she very much just like kind of uses the whole like claiming situation to be like I'm going to use your own rules.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:44

Yep. And she says, I claim everything. And the heretics are going to leave. And during this, Tatum's aunt did try to kill her, but Tatum took her out. So Tatum is now leader of the werewolves because you have to have the leader of the heretics, leader of the werewolves, her mate, and then Darcy. And so she sits down and she's like, well, we're all done. And then all of a sudden... There's a dragon. The last line is like, Is that a dragon? Fucking dragon. And that's the end of the book. So, romp of a time. This was a fun book. I had a good time. I really liked it, actually.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:26

I know I complained that there was a lot of sex. I thought it was a really fun book.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:31

This is probably one of the biggest romps of an indie mission we've ever done, where it's just like, this is a fun time. I'm having a good

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:37

time. Lots of action, lots of stuff happening. I don't know that there was a single time when I was reading this where I was not locked in Because I was very much like, ooh, what happens next? Because you know how sometimes you're reading stuff, even things that have a lot of action, and you're just like, okay, action, action, action, action, action. I was very much interested the entire time.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:59

I mean, this is a fun urban fantasy. You and I have read so much Dresden Files where we're like, why did we have that chapter? What happened? And this one was like, no, they're all fun. I'm here for it. It really was a fun book. The world building, like the Fae and the Nephilim and the Dampyr, I think it adds layers to societies we don't often see in these types of books that are discussed. And

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:21

oddly, for as fast paced as everything was, I do feel like the author did a backstories and a little bit of depth, which I think is hard to do when things are happening at this fast of a pace.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:36

Yeah, I agree. Like, I really like the Cell character. I think he was a fun time after you

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:43

got over the, like... Kind of spreading everybody out and giving us some backstory here for everyone.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:00

Well, the characters we know the least about are like Darcy and Tatum, but like they are there to support. And like it's because she doesn't get access to them very much. Like there's a reason she doesn't get to know them as much as she would

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:12

like to. Isn't this the first book in a series? So we might in future novels have more on them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:18

But like I do like Raj. I like Raj. I like Sal. I like like this is a very queer novel. Happy Pride Month, everyone.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:25

I mean, this is a really solid first book in a series, though, honestly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:30

So I think there's so much good in this book. I think it's a lot of fun. For people who like paranormal romances, it's one of the better ones I think I've read. You're going to get a lot

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:41

of fun. This is really solid for people who are big fans of this genre. I think if you're not used to a lot of romance or paranormal romance or urban fantasy, this probably isn't for you. And this is a very popular genre at the moment, paranormal romance. I think a lot of people would really dig this one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:00

I and a lot of women who read a lot of paranormal like romantic stuff or men or anyone who wants whoever

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:06

yeah

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:07

whoever wants to read it they usually like a lot of like sex scenes and fun things and I think like the author did a good job of making it different at each and every time like you and I talked yeah there's a lot we didn't go into it but like they are different there's different types of things um there's a lot of just different play it so I think it works as a novel it's

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:26

another thing is too it's like there's different types of relationships happening it's not all the same thing. Maybe that's what you're getting at. I wasn't sure if it was just specific sex or if it was the differences in relationships, but I do think that there's some good up and down in terms of what's happening in terms of who's involved and what actually is happening in terms of the act itself.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:52

Well, and in it, there's so much... I think that a lot of people... don't get to read a lot of like sex communication, but there's a lot of like communication about sex on the page where it's like, what are you comfortable with? What do you want to do? Like, what's your like

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:06

thing? It's a book that's sex positive and at the same time, like very aware of like consent and knowing like we have to, like you're saying, to make parties aware of like, oh, we're open or what have you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:23

Yep. And it is fun to be back in like crime syndicate land where it's like, oh, we're just in a Vegas. Like this is fun. It's interesting. I will

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:34

say the other thing that I did appreciate too, like even though this is very much like a lot of sexy time happening, the author does a good job of redirecting back into the story where it's not overwhelming, where we get, and the chapters are fairly short, but we do like, kind of move from one thing to the next at a good pace, but at the same time, it's not like you feel like, oh my gosh, I need a break. The author does a good job of kind of shifting into the next chapter to kind of give you a breather and then move you back into something else.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:11

I agree and there's so many different even relationships outside of like the romantic partners with like Zaziel having like a parent who you're not really sure where you can meet and also understanding that like you want to have a connection with this parent but something's keeping you away from each other like

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:27

that

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:27

is a hard relationship to build off of and I think it's effectively done with the time space we get with Zaziel and a good look at like different like an abusive relationship. Like Octavian is a very effective villain because he is corrupt down to the bottom. He is not going, he's like so awful that like, that's where it gets into its deepest horror elements is when he's on the page and the things that he does, or he allows to happen through character.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:54

Yeah. The elements that are more realistic to our, our world are the ones that are more horrific, honestly. And I, I like all those things too.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:04

Yeah. And just like having Izzy be a character who had to do bad things. I think in a lot of these books, there's always like a way to get around it. But in this, it's like, no, she's going to be morally gray. She's going to act.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:14

And she very much sits with her guilt. And in this book, too, which I think is also kind of a like unique thing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:22

I agree. I think there's just so much depth to her. I was a little bit shocked in some of the chapters where she's like, well, am I a serial killer now? And I was like, I don't know if I'd consider you a serial killer. And I'm like, well, technically she's right. She's sitting with guilt. It's realistic where in some fantasy novels, I think people are like, well, I feel bad that I killed that person, but it was out of my control. And she's very much like, no, I live in a world very similar to the real world. That's awful for me. So it's very driven by reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:52

I really like this book, though. I think it's super solid and a really good entry into this series and sets it up really well.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:03

Something like a final note. It's really good because I feel like sometimes vampire novels are still like a little bit too squeaky clean for people where it's like, well, vampires have been around forever. We always say like they're quote unquote depraved, but it's always like they're depraved in the way Angel is depraved. It's like he murders a lot of people off screen, you know, and it's like, no, this is actually going to show what that could look like. It's going to be like about people. Issues of consent, it's going to be about those types of things. So I do think that that was very effectively done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:36

And also, like we mentioned earlier, good nods to like classic vampire stories as well. Because you mentioned like nods to Dracula. So

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:45

cool. Yes, there were definitely nods to Dracula and what we do in the shadows. We'll have to ask Javi about that and more next week when we are joined by the author themselves. We can't wait to discuss further. So please join us next week. And while you're waiting, please rate, review and subscribe. That's a great way of pushing people over to the podcast or follow us at OWWRpod on all the social platforms, mostly Blue Sky and Instagram. Uh, you can also check out some of our work at our pod.com, uh, and email us at our pod at gmail.com or join us over on discord. If you want to chit chat, we're not as active on there right now, but, uh, if you want to talk to me about sleeping with the enemy or gone girl, I'm here for it. So, uh, join us over on there and we can just

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:33

talk to me about Mickey 17. Everyone come talk to me about that adorable little alien baby.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:37

A better movie than sleeping with the enemy. Uh, apparently I can't say, uh, watch it next week and then let me know. But yeah, join us next week as we talk to the author for Indy Mission.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:49

And thanks for listening today.

UNKNOWN: 1:32:58

Bye.