Ben Balow, Finding Peace Beyond Addiction:

In this episode , host Jeremy reconnects with Ben Balow, his second-ever guest. Their conversation delves into their long-standing friendship, the personal and professional challenges they've faced, and the impact of sharing authentic stories. The episode highlights the transformative power of storytelling in helping individuals feel less alone in their struggles, particularly emphasizing hope, redemption, and the journey through addiction recovery. Ben, celebrating 21 years of sobriety, shares insights on navigating life post-addiction, underscoring the importance of community and authentic relationships.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hey guys, welcome back to the Wild Courage Podcast. Today I'm in the barn in Emmett, which this is going to be a super fun conversation because um I have my good, good friend Ben Baylow back on. Um thanks for coming over and doing this, buddy. Absolutely, Jeremy. My honor. Well, Ben, if you're new to the podcast, Ben was my second guest ever over five years ago. It's crazy that it's literally been five years. Hard to imagine, yeah. I know. I can't believe that I'm still doing this. Yeah. From one thing. And two, um, we were talking before we hit the button, but I remember how freaking nervous I was because I took all this equipment and put it in a suitcase and wrapped it in towels and took it to Arizona. And I were you you were judging a horse show.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

We were in Camp Verde, Arizona. That's right. And I had a little cabin that they'd give me to stay stay in there. And yeah, we did that just one evening, uh, I think when I was done done judging, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

And it took me like five hours to get everything set up and tested. And I was so I was so nervous. I still get nervous, not quite as nervous as I was that time, mostly because of all the technology and like making sure I was getting it captured and recorded, because I'd only done it once before, and it was here in the barn in my in my office. But um, yeah, five years ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

That's crazy. Yes, sir. Kind of a miracle, really, that uh we're still friends after much longer than five years. Um still stay in touch and we still do life together. And uh so that to me is a miracle and a blessing. And uh just you know, just happy to be here again and and just kind of share some of the things that have happened in my life over the last five years. And yeah, it's it's kind of fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Like, you know, um back in the day, and I know you didn't watch this, but VH1 had this thing called Where Are They Now, and it's about old washed-up rock stars.

unknown 2:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

From like the 80s hairbands. That's pretty fitting here. And I remember one of them. I remember watching it one time, and one of my favorite like hairbands from the 80s and 90s was painting houses in Flagstaff, Arizona for a living. And I was like, man. Yeah. Yeah. We're not doing that, so I guess things are still looking up for us. Yeah. I guess not. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I did stain my barn the other day, and it kind of felt like that a little bit. Well, I painted my barn the other day. So in a way, yeah. I guess we are there. Maybe we are, but just uh, you know, having our own places and our own businesses, that's just part of the deal.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

So Yeah. I I do want to circle back to one thing, and like I never have really, I guess, said this on here before, but I just want to take this time because it's been five years. The podcast turned five years old in January of 26. And just to tell everybody that has been along on this journey with me, thank you for listening. Um, I was we were talking yesterday about the podcast and we were doing the math on how long it'd been. I think you ended up actually looking it up. Um I remember telling you like five people are gonna listen to this. Right. Right. And in the the first year and a half, I mean, I'd get like 15 downloads, 20, but it started out with like three and then five, and now it's just overwhelming. And I say all that just to say thank you to everyone that downloads it and subscribes to it, and it it helps because it it shows up in um at the bottom of other podcasts. A lot of people tell me they found it as a suggestion when they listen to another podcast or something. I don't understand how it works, but all of that to say thank you guys who have been along on the journey and have found these stories. And the the point of it is we were talking again before we hit record, is like the whole point of this is to give hope through authentic, vulnerable stories of people that have been through hell. Absolutely. And made it through the other side to give hope to guys like us still that feel like we're alone in something and nobody would understand. Because as men, we're usually not very good about talking about where we're at or being honest with ourselves sometimes, even let alone our people we call our friends and our brothers. And that's what I think's been so healing for me in this whole journey since we started Wild Courage five years ago, is how much I've gotten out of these stories and how much they've really shaped and changed my life. And I know because I do get a lot of feedback, which I really appreciate. I get a lot of emails and messages on social media, and I need to be better about trying to respond to all of them, but I I mostly just want to say thank you to everyone that listens to these and has reached out, the impact that they've had. And and it wouldn't, and it's not because of me, it's because of guys like you. And like you being the second one on here, I remember it it caught a little a little ways after it came out, people started finding it. Because, as we'll get into later, like you've been in this business for a very long time in the horse training world. And it's uh always amazes me how well we know we think somebody, like when somebody says a name of somebody you've known for 20 years, they're like, Oh, hell yeah, I've I've known that guy. We came up together, this and that. And then they hear your story on here. And I imagine I know you got some feedback of like, I had no idea. Yeah, absolutely. And that just floors me of like how well we think we know people. Right. And then people trust me and come on this platform and tell their stories so vulnerably and authentic authentically. I can't even say it. Yeah. Authentically. Yeah. Thank you. And how much it helps other people in their journey of not feeling alone of what they've been through and the struggles they've had, and how much hope is in just hearing somebody else's story. I think it it validates, like, oh, I'm if nothing else, I'm just not alone feels nice.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I notice that when I listen to other people's podcasts um that have been on your show. And just um, you know, you say that not a lot of this is due to you, but it did in my heart, uh, about all of it is due to you, that you just keep finding people that are that maybe have had some struggles, but that have gotten through it and that are very, very interesting people. A lot of them have been extremely successful in whatever genre it is they're in. And uh, you know, maybe I I like you were saying, I knew of them, uh, but I didn't really didn't really know them. And and to you kind of get to know somebody when you listen to one of these podcasts, uh kind of their story, and God, it just amazes me. I mean, it's absolutely uh it it's absolutely inspiring, actually. And that's the, as you said, the whole idea of this thing is to bring hope to people. And you know, a lot of um a lot of my story wraps around, you know, the alcoholism early on in my uh not even early on, like till about midlife, you know, and then how that has changed. And I'm you know, I'm proud to say by the grace of God after 21 years, that's amazing. 21 years. 21 years. I'm I'm still sober, but here's what I will guarantee. And for those people out there right now that might be struggling with that or or you know, thinking that they need to make a change in that department, is once you make that change, life still goes on. So you have to figure out a way to live life uh sober, you know, and all those things we talked about. Um I'm never gonna have any fun anymore, and nobody's gonna like me anymore, and all my friends are gonna leave, and stuff that you and I have talked about in the past. Um, you know, you have all those apprehensions, fears, and you know, even though this this uh chemical, whatever that is, is destroying your life, you know, you're still kind of holding on to it because it's become a way of life and what have you. And uh but I'm here to tell you like sometimes you just life goes on, so it's not easy even after you sober up, and you've got to learn it, you've got to learn all over how to live life again.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

I I I know I've said this on here before, but I never put a gun in my mouth until I quit drinking. Which I think people get backwards.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Like I was when I was dr a drunk, I was fully coping, had my coping mechanism. That was your coping mechanism. Yeah. It was like what helped me stay alive. Mm-hmm. Um, due to the unprocessed pain that made me drink in the first place. Right. Right. But I mean, it was like three days into sobriety, I was playing Russian roulette. Like it I don't say that lightly, I've just had a lot of healings since then and can talk kind of opener, more openly about it. But to your point, life does go on. And then I think what happens, what kept me in the cycle of addiction was the messes that I had made because of it, and then the shame following two or three days of sobriety would catch up to me. And the self-hatred and the mess I was making in my marriage and work and choices and the bank account, all the things is what I think you're kind of what you're saying too, is like, oh, life goes on. And if you don't have something in place and the right people it's why you can't do it alone, I don't think. I mean I I I don't there's exceptions to everything, but I don't know too many people that have done it alone, and I think that's what's tricky is we don't bear each other's burdens very well.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

That's right. Yeah, I don't know that there would be anybody that's done it alone, but if nothing else, it's the grace of God that allows us to change our lives in that big of a way. And you know, we're the lucky ones. You you and I are the lucky ones because uh there's well we've both buried a lot of friends that didn't weren't that didn't make it, that didn't make the change, that couldn't make the change, and and that's you know, that's a difficult thing in in life there, you know. But I just feel like very, very fortunate that every day when I get up, I have an opportunity to do something, win, lose, or draw. I have an opportunity to go try something, to go do something, to go to go be successful at something or to fail at something. And as as long as uh I have that opportunity, it seems like things kind of work out for me. Not all the time, but I I'm pretty fond of saying at least 51 percent of the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Aaron Powell Yeah, that's that's a pretty good percentage.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Trevor Burrus It's a pretty good percentage.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Um especially if you look back from what the percentages were before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

The percentage when when when I sobered up, I would say, and and a lot of this is just the the the inside feeling that you have, and and maybe you felt peace one percent of the time, you know, if if you were, you know, one percent, five percent, doesn't matter, whatever, not a lot. And so if you can get up to 50 per 51 percent, which um, you know, god forbid I actually feel like I have peace, and that's what I'm talking about here a lot, not just success in something material that I do or something that I'm building, uh, but success by having peace. And that is more than 51% for me. I mean, I just I would say most of the time, like before where I kind of fought depression, that's something that maybe I inherently have a little bit. Uh but now I know like it may happen every once in a while. I might have a bad day here and there, just like everybody does. I mean, and you don't know why. I mean, it has nothing to do most of the time with your outside circumstances. It has to do with how you're feeling inside. It can be the perfect day and everything's going good and there's actually nothing going wrong, and you just have that bad feeling. But uh and by the same token, there can be a shitstorm going on around you, and you just feel that peace. You know, you're just at peace, you know, everything's gonna work out. This is just a part of life, and you know, this too shall pass. Uh I but I feel that peace a lot, you know, anymore. And it's uh you know, I work at it. I uh you know, I don't do anything extremely uh difficult, but it's just read a little, pray a little. I try to hang around like-minded people, um, and that helps me that helps me a lot for me. It's it's other Christians or people in in the program, in the AA program, and I I marry the two together, you know. I uh I say that without, you know, God gives us tools. And and just uh no different than a doctor when you're sick. Well, that's a tool that God has given us, and and the AA program is another tool that God has given us when we're emotionally sick, and that's that's what alcoholism is or drug addiction or any of those things.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

So Yeah, it's it's interesting to me, circling back to something you said a little bit ago that I want to touch on.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

It's the lies that we tell ourselves when that first time we think about like when you start getting in trouble, right? Because of the choices that you make when you're drunk, and you wake up and you're like, where's my wallet and my boot? And I don't remember where I parked my truck. Right. And then they somehow just kind of start clicking up in severity.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

That I remember thinking, like, oh, uh this isn't a good road I'm going down. Also don't know how to get off this train. But then, like, again, pointing back to something you said, is like the things I told myself, like, I'll definitely lose all my friends, because that was our common. Well, here's the perfect example, me and you.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

It wasn't horses that horses may have been what what made the introduction. Yes. That was the friend. If the horse was a friend, it made it said it introduced us. That's not what made us stay friends, though. No, I it was like, I think that guy could keep up with me. And you were probably looking at me thinking, I think that guy could keep up with me. Absolutely. We need to run together. And that's how we became friends. And so when there's this like subconscious thought that starts turning to a conscious thought of I I I'm making very bad choices that are starting to cost me in all the ways, relationally, financially, you name it. I remember thinking this, like, I will lose and I started going through my friends. I'm like, oh, we party together, oh, we do horse stuff, but mostly there's always boo booze involved with the end result of like passing out. I definitely won't be funny. Um, before I got married, I was like, I won't have the courage to talk to a girl. I definitely can't dance sober. I tried it one time. That wasn't good. Right. So that really messes up the girl situation also. You know what I mean? But just running those thoughts down. And it it dawned on me today before we were jumping on here, I had three phone conversations while you were taking a little siesta and I was out irrigating in this blistering Idaho spring heat. Um, a couple things, I'm not a good farmer, my hay field looks like um. But I had three phone calls in like an hour. And they were all friends that I used to party with that brought us together. Not this is excluding you. Right. And the level and richness of our friendship is the opposite of what I used to think if I quit drinking. These guys are all sober now, too. And our relationship is so much deeper in sobriety. It's what brought us closer, actually. Night and day. Yeah. But it's amazing that narrative of like, I'm gonna lose all my friends, I'm gonna lose this, I'm not gonna be fun, nobody's gonna want to hang out with me. I will be truthful in this. For a season when I was first getting sober, you were my only friend. Uh, and David Simmons. Because I was not fun. I was miserable and I blew up my whole life, my marriage. I was in so much legal court. I remember. Yeah, you remember because you were in it with me. That's right. Yeah. So there there is a season that it was not these funner, lighter conversations. Yeah, that's right. But that's the beauty of the brotherhood, whether it's AA or whatever your tribe is, like I wouldn't have made it through that without you. Mm-hmm. Because my world was over. I couldn't I didn't have a driver's license, I didn't have a job. Well, I was riding those Colts for Mike, but that was for like three months and then it was over. Right. Right. You know what I mean? So there is a season where, yeah, you're sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Mm-hmm.

unknown 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

But the beauty in that is is you you were ahead of me. Because I'm 15 years sober and you're 21 years sober. So you at that point had six years of sobriety. Seemed like I had a lot at that time. Now looking back. Well, yeah, looking back.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I was like a guru, wasn't I? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Six years. How do you make it back up? How do you make it six days, six weeks, six months, you know? Yeah, exactly. But that's what I think is so cool about like the thing that brought us together. And on that trajectory of I think about all my party buddies, I don't talk to. Yeah. Because that was the thing. And the ones that I've got to encourage, maybe that were reverse of me and you, it it it de it deepened our friendship. And that's I think the beauty of community in this process of like we're talking about, like the guys that are like struggling with like, but you don't know what it oh, we do.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yes, we do. Yeah. It well, and that's part of why the program the program works, uh, is just because you're gonna go in there and you're gonna hear your story. And and so that's why it works uh better than going to a therapist. It it works better than just about anything. It is because there's people that have lived your story, and then you'll hear some stories in there where you go, oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

So that's I went to AA with you for a year. Nope, two years. Because I I had to get my court thing signed. That's right. But that's not why I went. Yeah. I went because you were mentoring me and helping me. And in that room in Skull Valley, Arizona, which nobody's ever heard of, was this little tiny church that we met in on Monday nights that you still meet in on Monday nights. Still do. Yeah. That helped shape and change my life to the point that you were just making.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

I was such a victim early on in my sobriety. I hadn't dealt with any of my sexual childhood. Molestation stuff at that point. I couldn't. It was too I was too early in the process of just trying to stay sober to deal with any of that. But what I recognized and got flushed out in that room is I was feeling so sorry for myself because Mary had moved out, left me all the things, right? Ton of trouble, no driver's license, all that comes with that. And subconsciously I'd become I was such a victim of like, how did this all happen to me? And I I'm not the guy that's going to end up under the bridge, or you know what I mean? You kick that can down the road a little bit, and I was becoming that guy. Yeah. Just a matter of time. And so I th I was such a victim. And what happened was, to your point, I was sitting there and listen to these stories of these guys that had four days of sobriety and 50 years of sobriety. Yeah. And their stories of what they've been through were 10x what mine was at that point. And it started convicting me of like, you're being a little bitch.

unknown 23:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Like it really exposed the victimhood in my addiction in me that I think most addicts have. Like if you only knew what I've been through, you would understand why I act the way that I do. And that's also how I validated my drinking too. Absolutely. Right. And that was one of the most powerful things in hindsight. Like I didn't know that for probably till 10 years after I went to AA. I remember it dawning me like it really one of the beautiful, painful things about that program to me was how it uncovered my victim narrative.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

And it was also that's why group therapy is like works so well. Because I think it exposes that. And we learn this around our wild courage fires. It's like some of the same principles. A lot of the same principles, yeah. And it's it exposes the victimhood, but also what it does is it makes me grateful. It it made me grateful. Yeah. Because I was in there boo-hooing about my circumstances, and there was people just through hearing story. Yeah. Yeah. That I'm like, I would not trade my circumstances as crappy as they are right now for half the guys in this room. Mm-hmm.

unknown 24:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Because some of those guys were like on the verge of prison and like well, or or not just on the verge. Or headed to prison, like their next court day.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

They had been in prison. Or they you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Like I think there's something equipping about one, the victimhood getting exposed, but also being grateful and not trading your problems for somebody else's, because if you will slow down and listen to somebody else's story, I think often we get worked up and buying into our own narrative of how rough we have it. And it's like, actually, yeah, I wouldn't trade my stuff for anybody else's junk.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, yeah, especially some of those stories. You know, something I would add to that, though, is um so you hear some of those just uh hair-raising stories in there. But on the other side of that coin, there's there are people that they on the outside they look very successful. You know, I know engineers and lawyers and doctors and pilots and I mean just all genres of people coming from different uh aspects of our world that even when they quit drinking, they were still on the outside pretty successful. And they and they had a terrible, you know, terribly bad drinking problem. You know, they were alcohol definitely alcoholics and they still managed to kind of hold things together. So I think I I think maybe there's as many of those as there are like what we'd call the low-end.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

I think there's I disagree. I think there's more.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Well, I was gonna say that, but I didn't, you know, I I mean I think there's more too, because most of the people in there, you know, didn't end up in prison and they didn't end up under a bridge, and you know, they were still maybe what we'd call functioning alcoholics, but their life was falling apart around them, and it was probably just a matter of time. And I I sort of compare it to this. I say that that that you know, addiction is an elevator ride to hell, and it only goes one direction, and that is down. And if you can uh you know you can get off the elevator, uh, or you can write it down a little bit further. And and you know, when I was first in the program, I was in there for five years before it really took hold. I was in and out because I had this terrible syndrome of I'm not that bad yet. I'd go in there, you know, you can compare yourself to somebody else's story.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Aaron Powell That's the flip side of the coin I was saying is you do go in there and you're like, I didn't just get out of prison. Yeah. I'm successful. I make my mortgage payment. Yeah. I'm winning these things in the horse show. Yeah, successful. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I mean, yeah. I still had a business and you know, I'd lost a lot of things. But the uh the other the other thing that I I've kind of come up with, I guess, that uh you know, you'd lose a lot. Uh you can lose uh you can lose your life very easily with any kind of addiction. And so that's always a sad, sad thing when it goes that far. But the other side of it is it's not just what you lost, and we all lost a lot before we decided to get off the elevator, but there's also the aspect of what you didn't gain. And I spent probably 25 years, uh uh the prime of my life, trying to live in two different worlds. Okay, trying to be successful as a horse trainer, but also trying to be um A successful drunk. A successful drunk, exactly. The partying and the you know, the all of that that kind of went along. At that time, part of that kind of went along with with that career choice. And and uh I, you know, I I can name ten people off the top of my head that were kind of famous old horse trainers that died with absolutely nothing, you know, living in a in a camp trailer on somebody else's place. And you know, and these are guys that drove the big trucks, the fancy trucks, and won the world championships and you know, had a whole lot of success in the business. But because of alcohol, be you know, because of that lifestyle, they they just ended up with nothing, you know, like like no wife, no, no life, no, no land, no, no house, no.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Now we're now we're getting to it. I love this conversation because there is a like a uh a a void kind of of like it's yeah, not what didn't happen, but what could have happened that I think about all the time. And I've said this on here before, but it breaks my heart to see my heroes, which a couple of years ago I ran into one at a r an event I was at that I grew up idolizing broke, alone, I don't know how many marriages, kids don't talk to him. And when I walked around the corner and almost walked into him, immediately I I knew who he was. I haven't seen him since I saw him in a magazine when I was a kid, but I had that picture on my wall. Yeah, yeah. And to see the hollowness in him and the absence of any life tripled and it propelled me to say what we're saying louder. Yeah to catch the 19, 22, 25 year old versions of us that need to hear this now because it's a thief. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

It or even the 35 or 40 year version of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

It's the point is it's never too late because we got sober later in life. Yeah, absolutely. But I do like I I there is a lot to I think, Ben that hard-charging, successful guy that we use as a benchmark, and it's like I would do it. I would be like, that guy. I I did it with you. Because I have three mentors in my life with the things I cared about most, which is horses. It was Grant Gulliher first, then Pat Puckett, then you. Those are that's my Mount Rush more of for me. At the right time, at the right place. And that's what I think I part of what I want people to hear too, is people are always watching us. Whatever level of authority we have and success in life, we're sending messages. Right. In a in a way, and I don't say this as any shame or guilt towards you. I looked up to you and respected you so much because I saw you do things with horses that I had never seen done in my life, and I got to at some point eventually ride some of your horses. And I was like, I want to, I want to know how to do this. And but you're also the same guy that I was getting plowed with every night. Exactly. So it was permit, you know what I mean? It was like we're people are always watching us, and those old horse trainers that were your heroes, that won the world, that that gained all the things. The point I want to make in all that is yeah, we've mentioned what it costs. The the jobs, the money, the little jail time here and there, but the real cost at the end of the day of what really matters in life is relationships. That's what it really robs families of. Mm-hmm. Yeah, without a doubt. Kids growing up without dads. Mm-hmm. Because dad can't stay sober, and that's what breaks my heart. That was almost my story.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Well, I have lived that, you know, and and and it breaks my heart too. And I you know, I had to learn how to forgive myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

That's super easy.

unknown 33:29

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I'm still working on it, by the way. We all are. But uh Yeah you know, and earlier on uh we kind of you know talked about, or I don't know how this kind of came up, you know, how how to do this. Well, we do it a day at a time. You know, how do you get 21 years of sobriety? A day at a time.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

The first bit for me was half a day at a time. Yeah. It was like if I could stay I can stay sober till noon, then I'll worry about this afternoon then.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Right. Right. However, you have to break it down. Yeah you know, and that's it, and maybe in the beginning, that's how you do have to break it down. But you know, I think that's that's not only an AA thing, that is a biblical thing. Uh that we try to live in today, not worry about the past or fret about the future. Trevor Burrus, Jr. No, because tomorrow's not promised. Tomorrow is not promised, exactly. And so by if you if you can train yourself to do that, just like you can train yourself to be grateful, um, you're gonna have a much fuller life. It's and it's not that you don't have goals. It's not that you're not looking down the road and going, okay, I'm gonna set my goal to compete at this competition, or I'm gonna set my goal to, you know, uh have my own place in five years, or I'm gonna have you know, you set those goals, but then you back off, and in the meantime, you're living a day at a time. You know, what do I need to do today? What is and and going back to uh like getting sober, you know, you can like I've heard I've heard people say they would they would break it down to exactly what, okay, right now I'm opening the refrigerator, right now I'm grabbing the milk, right now I'm pouring a glass of you know, you break it down as much as you need to, but I think in general, once you have sobered up and you have this life thing that kind of starts coming at you, because again, it will. I mean, I here's life. You you know, life is is good, life is great, but every once in a while you're gonna have a flat tire, and every once in a while somebody's gonna die, and everything in between. So to learn how to navigate that, to learn how to handle that, you know, and it's just it's just got to be a moment at a time, a day at a time. And and if you're not appreciating, and it's easier said than done. I mean, I can sit here and talk about this. I'm just telling you that that's what I work on, and that's what I have gotten a lot better at. Um, and I'm still working on getting better at it. I look at that just like I do my faith, which is given to me, you know, it's it's kind of the grace of God that I that I have that. But I'm can I'm continually trying to grow that as well. And because I don't know that that comes natural to everybody. I don't know that it comes natural to me as far as like my my faith is concerned, and not, you know, which I think it's directly related to how much we worry about the future or how much we worry about finances or how much we worry about this or that happening. And if we have enough faith, we're not gonna worry about it all that much. Okay, so I just kind of naturally and this is uh I'll tell you something kind of funny. So I naturally kind of worry uh about things. Okay, so like I said, I'm working on it, but I just kind of naturally worry about things. And most of the time, what I worry about does not come to fruition. Okay, it either happens differently or or most of the time what I worry about doesn't even happen at all. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

I think it's 95 or 98 percent of the things we worry about never happen statistically.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Right. So to me, that's proof that worrying works.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

That's funny, the superstitious, subconscious things that we think of. Um I've recognized some superstitious things about myself recently that's been a very interesting thing. But I want to circle back kind of that whole little thing you just talked about, what really stood out to me with the one day at a time and all of that is really about and not worrying about tomorrow and not focusing on the past is what that says to me is getting better at being present. Yeah. And if you're doing that, it's like what's in front of me today, and that's where I feel like the goal thing really is starting to change even in me, is like I think and I can't speak for anybody else, but if I have these big goals that are out there, they seem so lofty and so big that I end up procrastinating because I'm like, oh I've been telling my kids this thing that I heard the other day. It's like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, right? Correct. But that's kind of to me like being present and like because when I'm present, I'm grateful because I'm looking around and I'm experiencing life in real time also speaks to I'm not future tripping about things that 95% chance aren't gonna happen because I'm in the moment now. I'm also finding that okay, I have a lot of grass to mow and the weeds, we got a lot of rain, and there's a lot of weeds that can be just overwhelming, which also produces in me more procrastination. But if I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna mow this section today, I'm gonna stain this half of the barn, and I'm gonna spray this section of wheat. That's to me like being present right now today. I'm not gonna get it all done today. I'm not gonna worry about the weeds that I didn't get sprayed because I have a plan to be present again tomorrow and do the time allocation that I have to do that. But I think it that goes with sobriety and faith too. It's like, yeah, I can't wait to have 21 years of sobriety. But I'm gonna start with today. Yeah. Yeah. And not freak out about what's gonna happen when this court date happens or this relationship that I messed up. I heard, I think it was Jake Hamilton said on here maybe a few months ago, I had him on. What happened to us may not be our fault, but it is our responsibility.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

That's excellent.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Yeah. And that rocked me. Because when you have a couple of guys like us that I think that I'm hesitant to say this because I know I'm not a doctor and I'm not a psychologist, but I know that they say drinking's hereditary in some cases. I think it's more unprocessed pain that's never been dealt with that leads to more alcoholism than it does because grandpa drank too much. All of the above. Okay. With that being said, both of us have similar background stories that I think was a big piece of what drove us to finding a coping mechanism for the things that happened to us. This is where that quote that I just said that Jake said that that's not our fault, but it is our responsibility. So there's this bad thing that happened to us that wasn't our fault. I like the ownership of that kind of language of like, but it is my responsibility of how I'm gonna show up to that thing. You and I chose one way you can do that, which is try to drink away that pain and shame and disgust and all the things that come with what we've both experienced. So this narrative of like, yeah, it's not my fault. So to me, that says I'm gonna have grace for myself for something that happened to me that I didn't deserve. But it is my responsibility and what I'm going to proactively do to not let it take over my life. Not let it kill you. Because that's exactly what would happen. I mean, you don't get five DUIs. Like I don't like I did, I don't know that you get too many more chances. Because it's not like I got pulled over every time I got drunk and drove. It happened a very small percentage of the time that I absolutely which is like you know, putting a rattlesnake in your teepee and closing the doors and hoping you don't get bit. That's what drinking and driving is. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? But like there's a very which I think's again really hard for men, especially cowboys, which is how we both grew up in that world and are still tied to that lifestyle. Not even c just we were talking about yesterday. It's like what's the demographic of the Wild Courage podcast? It's like the hopeless man, the hopeless woman, the hopeless family, the hope. It's it's about hope. And I don't care if you're a hayseed farmer in Nebraska or an oil rig guy in West Texas or a cow puncher in Arizona or a buckaroo in Nevada, like you're our people. That's who our pars are for. It's rural America, blue collar. You know what I mean? And I think my point in saying all that is so much of what drives men to addiction. In the last five, ten years of my sobriety, especially last five years with all the work we do in Wild Courage. And the guys that I've walked with from addiction into sobriety is like addiction isn't the root cause of why you're drinking. Like let's go after the why. That's what it's all about. Let's get that healed and work through that. And the addiction is like a byproduct of that. I don't even care if it's porn. Yeah, that's right. That's an unmet need that didn't that's tied to a lot of different things, but it's it's not the root byproduct. And I say that to give hope to anyone that's listening to this, is like, these guys are full of it. It's true. My true healing came when I got sober long enough that I had the courage to face the reason why I drank in the first place. Once that got healed, I feel like it really shut the door on me and my addictive behaviors. How long was that process? I'm not sure. I'm not we're we always say we're never, we never arrive at any of this. It's a journey for called a journey for a reason. But the point being, there's hope, and we can't do it alone. And sometimes I needed you.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Oh, or I needed you. You know, there's been many times in my life when I needed you. And uh I mean, if you needed me in the beginning, what I was doing there is I was just uh sharpening a tool that I was apparently going to need a little bit later because I have used you time and time again to talk me off of cliffs. And and and, you know, I love you because of that. I mean, that's you know, that's the history we have. Like you said, it began with the with the partying. I mean, and and but I think God had a hand of obviously in all of this. Clearly. And that's there, you know, those DUIs. When I listen to your story uh on the Wild Courage podcast, I I just I mean, I could listen to it every six months. You know, it's just because it's just such an amazing, uh, amazing uh inspirational story ultimately. But if you take somebody out there that is where you were in the beginning of that story, and they can listen to that story, then that it would it would indicate to them that there is hope. And that's that is where so many of the stories on the Wild Courage podcast, that's what they do. You go, oh my God. I you know, I had no idea. As you said earlier today, listening to the different stories on there, it's like, my God, that person's been to hell and back. And then they they found they got redemption and they, you know, they overcame those huge problems that some of them are just some people can't imagine, you know, overcoming what they overcame. And you know, but everybody's got everybody's got maybe a story, and and God bless the people that don't, you know, turn to drugs or alcohol and they figure out how, but I, you know, how to navigate life and and and that's just our story, you know. That our story is that we did go there and it worked really well for quite a while. Till it didn't. Until it didn't. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

But again, that's again, that's why we're doing this. It's the power of story of giving hope to someone who feels like they're alone in something. And I felt that way. That's exactly how I felt. And when God redeemed my life and my story and my marriage and all the things, I just was like, I want to spend the rest of my life, however possible, however loud I need to say it, there's hope for you too. Absolutely. You know, I I think one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about in this, and we touched on a little bit, but when you get sober, there a lot of times, uh depending on the severity and length of your being a drunk or a addict, we'll say, 'cause it this isn't just for drinking. Right. Right. This this covers anything that you're doing that is unhealthy and detrimental to you or the people you love. Because there's a lot of hard chargers out there that are broken inside, but their choice of coping mechanism is work. That's right. This is for you too, because the end goal is healthy relationships. Right? At the at the end of the day, it's not about money. And we see a lot of guys, uh men that come through and you get to hear their stories. And it's like, I don't have a big story. I I wasn't this or that, or I never was an addict, and they keep coming around, and it's like, yeah, I grew up wealthy, and yeah, was your dad ever at a baseball game?

SPEAKER_04 49:26

No.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

There's pain there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Mm-hmm. What are you doing to cope with that? Right. And this isn't about being a wuss and being an over-emotional, like, yeah, minute, we're supposed to do hard things and we're capable of doing hard things. But like I say all the time, if this shoe fits, put it on. If it doesn't, we're not talking to you. But the hope in in all of this is if you're showing up in ways that are unhealthy, there's there's solutions to getting better so that you can protect the things that are matter most. Because at the again, the end of the day, that's all that really matters. But what I wanted to go into a little bit is it gets tricky when we get sober and get our lives kind of put back together. I had this thought that if I get sober immediately, my my life's gonna get better. It does. It doesn't happen super fast in my case. And I'm again speaking for me, and it doesn't necessarily look like I thought it was gonna look. Like the hardest five years of my life, five years were after I got sober because of the damage that I had done, mostly to my wife's heart and to that marriage. Also, the financial hole I dug us in subsequently with that, those choices I made. And I had to pay for that in a lot of different ways. And sometimes the damage is so great. I've heard from a lot of people like, that's great for you. I got sober and my wife still left me. Happens all the time. Still didn't work out. Yeah. And for those people, I'm so sorry. Because I I do wake up every morning. Not every morning, because sometimes she gets up before me. And that thought is in my head. I'm so grateful that I get to wake up to this woman and we have the marriage that we have, and fully recognizing that most people don't make it through what we've been through. Some do. Not all do. I'd say most don't. Most don't. Yeah. And that breaks my heart because I'm on the other side of getting to experience what we've fought for for the last 12 years really hard. And the fruit of that. And again, to those who don't have that experience, and you kind of fall into that category since since we first sat down five years ago, you'd been sober for 15 years at the time.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah, at that time, probably 14. Yeah, for 15 years. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Fifteen or 16, 16 years, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

And in that time, it hasn't been butterflies and rainbows for you. And my my question in all that, and some of this we don't need to get into the truth is divorce is painful no matter what. Especially when there's kid kiddos involved. It's messy, it's painful, it hurts, it's expensive, all the things. What I'm most interested in that part of your story is to go 15 years of sobriety and your whole world kind of falls apart. Right. Like 17 years into sobriety. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's about right. Yeah. And I think you you often we often hear about stories where, man, that guy was doing so good. What happened? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you find out, oh, he went through a really tough divorce or lost a business, or heaven forbid, lost a child, which then led to divorce, then led back to it, you know, you hear I I hear a lot of these types of stories, and what a ma what imp what inspires me about you is you went through some of the hardest times of your life since we sat down and did this the first time. Mm-hmm. And not only remained sober through that challenging season, but literally Ben one of the things that I respect about you the most is you've literally rebuilt your life, your business, property, like all the things that come with hard things.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Yes, all of that happened to me since we did the first um podcast. And I might even rephrase that a little bit. All of that happened to me and for me since we had our last podcast. And you're right about the uh divorce. You know, there's it's not easy for anybody. Uh I think one thing you have to really be aware of, some of the things that I learned uh just going through this uh is it it affects the people around you, like your kids and probably even some of your extended family and uh and as well as the people that are kind of going through the divorce. So obviously, if you're going through a divorce or you've been through a divorce, it's it's not because you got along great. Okay. And so there's that aspect of it where um you know you're getting out of something you don't see any hope in that you don't see changing, and both people are, let's say, relatively miserable. Um so there's hope at the at the end of that. You know, you hope that by making that change that one and or both of those people can find peace and can go on with their lives and live a successful, peaceful, loving, kind life by maybe going through that divorce. So maybe, you know, maybe it needed to happen. Apparently, you you know you think it needed to happen at that point. Um but you have to be aware of the of the, you know, again, that it does affect people around you. And I don't think it really I was as aware as I as I should have been with uh, in particular one of my boys, yeah, you know, I think it greatly affected him, maybe more than he even would admit. And, you know, I love him more than life itself. And just I think it caused a little riff between he and I for a while. And, you know, thank you, by the grace of God, he and I have just got a great relationship again because we always did, you know, as he was growing up and what have you. We we just lived life together. And I mean, I thought more of him than uh well, than I did myself by by a long shot. I mean, it you know, you know, he he he he was just extremely special to me, and you know, and then but I had a stepson too, and and um maybe was a little different there, but we had a good relationship, and then an older son that really maybe wasn't affected too much of this because he wasn't uh he wasn't part of that chapter. Yeah, that chapter or that family dynamic.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

But um And I I I just want to jump in here and say one thing about who we since he was because I've known him since he was a baby, Ben Ben, your son. I told you this yesterday because he and I have our own relationship outside of me and you. And that kid, and again, I told you this yesterday, has the emotional intelligence of an 80-year-old sage. Right. Yeah. Like he stuff comes out of his mouth that I'm like, wait, how old are you again? And what books have you been reading? Yeah. Like he's a he's a besides a very talented athlete and roper and horseman. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he grew up riding nice horses, which helped him on his journey, but yeah, he's he's a exceptional young man. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. I I can imagine as a father how proud you are of him, but uh just as a friend and getting to watch him grow up from a bit of a distance nowadays, but Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

It's a bit of a distance for me now, too. But I know you know it it uh along those lines, I mean he thinks the absolute world of you. And and again, I think you helped on both ends getting us through that. It helped me, and I know you helped him quite a bit too. And and so but again, just by the thank you, God, you know, for for that being good now. But going back to how that affects everything and how I kind of got through that, I at that time I had enough time under my belt and um and and I'll talk about how you know having time under your belt. I want to say a little bit more about that and what it means a little later. But I had enough time under my belt at that time that I had watched a whole bunch of people before me go through things that were just as bad or worse and come out the other side. They didn't drink over it, they didn't destroy their lives over it, they didn't, you know, they they just worked through it because that is, you know, as we say, life on life's terms. Okay, and what what you learn how to do is you learn how to, you know, whether it be uh through the Bible or whether it be through the AA program, which again is, I feel like a tool that God has put here for us to use, um you get to you get to be around people that have been through a lot of things in sobriety. You know, I mean it's it's it's interesting and it's fun to listen to somebody's drunchologue is what is what you know what you call it. Like, but really as you go along, it's what you're doing by continuing to better yourself. And for me, it is, you know, it is a lot wrapped around the program. I mean, is you're you're learning how to la navigate life. Okay, that's what that's what that is for. That's what this podcast is for. That is what that's for, that's what the wild courage is for, that's what the fires are for. And it's tribe. It is.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

It's having a tribe that you've because what one of the other things that blew me away about AAA, because I'd never been in that environment, was the vulnerability that was like captivating to me and part of what's so healing. And I think to your point, is like we were uh talking about earlier, is like somebody's always watching. And I love that how you said that, like I've watched other people go before me and navigate worse things than I'm going through and remain sober and plugged into whatever's working for them that gave me hope. And like I I know I know ten guys or whatever that have navigated this because I've I again I I know I'm a broken record, but I subscribe to the theory that you become like the five people you spend the most time with. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's so true just watching my own kids and who their friend groups are and and my friend groups, like talk about blessed, man. I I run with a pack of my tribe is deep and wide with men that I have and in real time watching go things because they have kids that are older than me and have been married longer and navigating, like to your point, super hard things, and I'm watching them navigate it with grace and wisdom, and I'm like, I want to be like those guys. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're ahead of me and they're plowing the way. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And when I'm struggling, I have a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that I get to lean into. Mm-hmm. If that's what I hear you saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

That is what I'm saying. Yeah, without a doubt. So uh so that really So your friends matter. Oh yeah, your friends do matter. Yeah. Both ways. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I said I was going to touch on, you know, our our time and grade, let's say, uh to uh about you know time in the program. And you know, you hear me on this podcast, I'll tell you I have 21 years. And you know, proud's not the word, but it I just say this it's by the grace of God that I have 21 years, a day at a time is how I did that. And I navigated a lot of hard stuff. Um, and but I've lived a lot of good life in that 21 years. And the difference, one of the differences, I remember it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

So dude, I get around all my old cowboy buddies that are also um a lot of them are sober now. And I sometimes like want to crawl under rocks. Like, remember that one time that you were running naked through the woods chasing that squirrel? I'm like, oh my gosh. No, I don't remember that, and I don't want to remember that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Exactly. Yeah, that had to be somebody else. But but you know, so so that, you know, 21 years, of course, I know people that have, yeah, you know, there's a lot of people that have a lot less time than that. There's a lot of people that I know that have a lot more time than that. But uh I would say this, it it doesn't matter how far down the road we are with our with our journey, whether it be in AA or whether it be in Christianity or whatever it is, we're all equally close to the ditch, no matter how far down the road we are. So you you can't like the biggest thing I've seen when I've seen people that don't make it or or let's we you know go back out, so to speak, is they get complacent. They they they get to thinking, well, you know, I don't want to do that, I don't want to go to that fire, I don't want to go to that meeting, you know, I'm tired, I'm this or I'm that. And the very first thing that I hear, and and I've been around long enough that I've seen a lot of people go out and come come back in. Now, the now the good part of what I just said right there is they come back in, keep coming back. It works if you work it. But the very first thing out of their mouth will be, well, I quit going to meetings, and then the narrative just goes from there. And it's and never one time have I heard any of those people that went out and came back in and said, Oh, God, it was great. Yeah, I got the big house and the new wife, and I made a million dollars. That's that's never the narrative. The narrative is that elevator that I talked about earlier that was going to hell, they just wrote it down a little bit further. And it was getting closer and closer to actual being in hell.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Aaron Ross Powell How with that being said how much does isolation do you think play a part in that?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Well, I guess you could say that that a lot of it is isolation. Um but it's not necessarily just solely isolation in in my opinion. It's it's isol isolation from the right things. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So y you know, I mean, I can you know I could still go about my business right now and I could keep doing what I'm doing, but I need to interject the things. That really are important to me that allow me to, first of all, be of service to maybe hopefully some of the people around me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

I was going to say, what part of gratitude is I know it's a big thing in the program, which is also probably tied to gratitude, but what part of like what part of that is tied to you in being in service or giving back? Like how does that play into all of this?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

I pray every single day to be of service to somebody. Aaron Powell And what does that mean to you? It can mean a lot of things. Um first of all, in the big picture, when I do get the opportunity to maybe sponsor somebody or or visit with somebody about what you and I are just visiting about right now, I take that opportunity. I am pretty open about the fact that I'm that I'm in the program. Uh matter of fact, I had an article in the Bridal and Bit magazine last month, and it was a little bit of it touched on what we're talking about right now, but I mentioned it in that article. Okay, it just kind of fit in there, and hopefully it fit in there quite well without being out of context. But a lot of people know that that I'm in the program, and a lot of people know that I've been sober for a long time, and so I've had some opportunities, and I, you know, I mean, just opportunities to uh minister, I guess you'd say, to other people, to other men, and to sponsor other men uh here and there. And, you know, I just I mean, that's a big part of my life, and I I pray if that opportunity comes up that I'm there and I'm available. Uh, but now it doesn't mean to it doesn't need to mean something that big, by the way, of service can mean that, you know, there's an old lady walking up to the door at Walmart and I open the door for her. Yeah, it means being a good one. It just means being a good person and being, you know, I think the word kind has to come into play. I try to be kind, I try to be patient, and I'm allowed to be that way because I'm sober. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

I've always thought that part of being an addict is I was so selfish. 100%. I mean, my I've My buddy Will, who's been on here, we talked about it a lot, but is like my whole day revolved around me figuring out how to get drunk and stay drunk and also work all day, which is all about me. And that's what I think robs humanity and in addiction, also is how selfish in nature it is. And the opposite, the flip side of that coin is is I think it brings a level of obviously gratitude that you're sober, but then you have capacity to be the opposite of selfish, which then you're like, oh, I can hold the door open, I can put this shopping cart back. Oh, I can plant seeds of hope everywhere I go. Like, I don't maybe need to be this walk with this guy or sponsor this guy. Maybe it does. But I ask guys all the time, like, I want to get involved, I want to help, what can I do? I'm like, be a light and hope for somebody else. Like, it is so freaking easy to be a light in this world in America today, with all the negative everything and the dark cloud that I feel like everyone's under, it's like, I don't know, be a light, be do that. Like that's all I've been trying to do for a decade plus, whether you know, long before there was a microphone involved, it was like, I was in the oil field, dude. That's a pretty dark industry. And it's like, I don't know, be positive. Right. And I'm not downplaying it, but I I think that that's how as a society, and as someone that like wants to get back, like I said earlier, like I want to spend the rest of my life giving away hope, whatever that looks like and means, regardless of a platform or not. Because I my the goal is is I want to be the same guy talking to you right now as I am at the grocery store in traffic or with my kids or with my wife. Like, that's the goal. From my perspective, you absolutely are. I really always have been. And and I'm really I think trying to be the same guy that can be someone steady in a rock that's like, and I and maybe that's why, you know, people trust me and reach out to me, is because I have some years behind my belt of like dealing with hard things and hard circumstances, and I didn't tip over from it. And I think that's one way where people can get involved with being hope or being a light is like, I don't know, practice at the guy at the gas station. Practice to the girl at the checkout line.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Mm-hmm. Like it's tell your kid's coach that's volunteering, thank you for giving two hours of your life five days a week to my kid. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's I I don't know. It it sounds like I'm poking at it and making oversimplifying it, but that stuff catches on and it also becomes part of rewiring our brains and our system of like new nar pathways and new narratives of like, oh man, my life feels lighter. I'm super grateful. I'm leaning into the hard things that I used to run the other way from, whether, well, the hardest things are usually relationally or hard issues at work or hard issues with whatever it is. It's like I think the definition of a man is somebody that leans into hard things that suck. Mm-hmm. Whatever that looks like. And and to do that, I think it's it's all these things we're talking about, a combination of like who you're hanging out with, are you grateful for where you're at, even if it's not where you want to be? Are you wishing away your life? I did that for many years too. Well, someday if I get this, then I'll be happy. Dude, I did all the things. I got all the brand new best trucks and the best, all I did all that. None of it made me happy. Because, like you taught me, it's an inside job. Like, how can I arrange things in such a way inside that when the circumstances come, I don't move. And I think as men, and I think all of humanity, we're so driven by our circumstances that it's like I want to get things set up inside of me in such a way that I can be a rock for my family first, my inner circle of friends, and it goes out from there. That's how I think we make a difference. And I've said it a thousand times. It's not going to be by voting. Yeah. That's not going to change, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

Yeah. No, that's that's just it. You know, I'm I'm really, I think, by nature a little bit of an introvert. I know that's hard to believe. Because I, you know, when I'm doing what I do, like giving lessons or doing clinics, or you know, I'm kind of out. Well, I mean, I'm I guess I'm pretty approachable and I might talk, you know, I talk a fair amount, but uh Yeah, when you need to, but I I you kind of keep your head down and do your own thing too. Yeah, I guess I do. So everybody's got a little different personality in that in that respect. Um but you know, going back to just being, you know, being of service to the people around us and just trying, you know, kind of looking a little bit for where you can be helpful, you know, where you can kind of be a service. I think I think a lot of the problems that we might be going through at any given time can be greatly reduced if we think about helping somebody else. Like we just get out of ourselves and go do something that may be of of of help to somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:37

I could not agree more with you. My wife, who is my litmus test for everything, because she now feels comfortable enough to be honest with me, painfully honest with me, which is I think a sign of a healthy relationship. Yeah. As painful as that can be sometimes. Right, right. When I and it's it sneaks up on you. Yeah. I'll start like feeling sorry for myself or being blue, being a little bummed out. It's when I've gone a week or so and I'm not doing exactly what you're saying. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I'm not talking to the guys that I'm, you know, walking with or whatever, you get busy and life's happening and chaos, and it is true what you're saying. Like the more I'm engaged in the things I feel like God's called me to, those days are very few and far in between. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:43

Which I just think is fascinating. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:48

Agreed. Yeah. No, it is. And I now sometimes I I would also say that that can be a little bit difficult, you know, to like the they say picking up that 5,000-pound phone and making that phone call or what have you. But I think once you start, sometimes you have to um struggle with that a little bit before you know, once you're kind of armed with that knowledge that you know it will help, then it becomes a little bit easier, and maybe you don't torture yourself or the people around you as long before you actually make a move and do something about it, whether that whether that means, you know, getting into service or making that phone call to that friend who probably needed the phone call as bad as you did. You know, and I've like I've had a uh a sponsor uh pretty much my whole AA life and actually just passed away. But I would call him and maybe just spew out a litany of crap that was happening to me. And he wouldn't say a word necessarily, but at the end of it I felt better. You know, and and I mean, you know, once in a while he'd throw in a little tidbit here and there, but that person's not going to have the miracle answer for you. It's just that you're sharing that burden with that person, and that's that's part of what this, again, going back to this podcast, it's it's what it's helping to make people aware of that you are not alone. Whatever your struggle is, there's somebody out there, or probably a lot of people out there that have had the same struggle or having the same struggle. And guess what? It's not over. No. Okay. You're still in the game. You're you're still in the game.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

And and you know what helped me a lot with that, that 5,000-pound phone, is when I realized that I wasn't nor could save anyone.

unknown 1:17:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:52

And it's not my job. I can't I can't save anybody. I don't know, it just changed my perspective of like I can be hope and I can be a good listener.

unknown 1:18:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:06

And I can encourage. But I can't save anybody. I can't you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

And nor Well, you can't take the credit for anybody that you you may have helped, and and trust me, you have helped, you especially have helped a lot of people, way more than you will ever know, and including this guy sitting right here, you know, hopefully one of your best friends and somebody that loves you beyond belief. Okay. You you so you can, you know, you can't help them, but they have to s you know, they have to kind of save themselves. I mean, I had to because when I was in the in the depths of my addiction, I I cannot tell you. I found a letter that my and and oh God, it just makes me uh like I don't even know if I'll get be able to tell you about this, but I found a letter from my mother from probably 30 years ago. And uh I mean, I've got it in my Bible at home, begging me to stop drinking. And it just, you know, it was about three pages long in everything that it was doing to everybody and all the all the pain, because she grew up with an alcoholic father who died when she was really young, and she was very sensitive to it. And one of the best humans that I've agreed. Yeah, you know, ever one of the best humans I've ever met, my mother was. And and and man, I mean, you talk about something that just when I read it, because I'd if I ever had seen it, it was during the depths of my addiction and I didn't pay any attention to it, uh, or I hadn't seen it, and she's been dead 21 years, you know, um, or I hadn't seen it, and or I had and I'd forgot about it, or or what have you. So how you affect other people, you know, is just uh you know, when they talk about alcoholism being a family disease, that there's never been a truer statement. I mean, it is uh, you know, whether and and I mean that can apply, as you said earlier, to not just alcoholism, but whatever your Yeah, whatever your school, whatever your coping mechanism is.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:30

Exactly. Yeah, I think it's I think it's but when you're in it, that's the crazy part of it is you can't see through the fog of it. I mean, I was watching my life fall apart, and there was I I there was nothing I could I thought I could do about it. And you know, again, my wise wife told me early on, before Wild Courage, I was walking with some a guy in particular in sobriety, and he didn't make it, and it devastated me. My I was so codependent. I didn't even know what that word meant at the time. But she would gently remind me, like and this is for the people that are walking with people in addiction. She told me, you just because I was devastated, dude. I walked with this dude for a year. Been there, done that. Yeah. And she told me, you can't want it for them more than they want it for themselves. And that's why I feel like I've been able to walk with who however many of guys I've had through some hard things is because I'm not tied to any outcome. Because it first, like I already said, I can't save anybody. It's not my job. Right. Right. And two, I sometimes find myself slipping back into that like you can like I get too attached to the outcome. Yeah. I did such a great job. How can they have gone back at the end? Yeah, I'm working harder at it than they are. Yeah. And that's hard. And for those anybody that's listening that's been that's in that season, and I know there's a lot, because I hear from a lot of wives, especially, like, I don't know what to do. He's blowing up our family. And it it brings me to tears. Oh, yeah.

unknown 1:22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:29

Because I know the cost. I know what I did to my family. And that's why we're doing this. We've already established. But I for for those of you that are going through that, I am heartbroken for you, and I'm sorry. And anything we can do as an organization, like that's what we're trying to do is Yeah, that's that's what the wild courage is all about.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

Now, and I'm gonna go back or maybe I'll just elaborate on a little bit more on what we're talking about. Um again, God puts tools out there. So uh you are a tool, I am a tool, this podcast is a is a tool, the A program is a tool. The biggest tool we all have is the Bible. Okay, so there are tools out there, and for those families or that that are going through this, sometimes all you can do when you're watching somebody kill themselves, blow up their lives, blow up their lives, which also affects you and blows up your life, is to somehow get healthy yourself, knowing that you can't save them. Yep. Whether you're whether it's a wife or in in my case, it was it was that, it was mothers, it was brothers, it was friends, it was people telling me, well, you know, you mean customers. Yeah, customers. You know, of course, I had a pretty good way of hiding it, you know, uh of you know, my my alcoholism to not affect necessarily my my at least the superficial part of my business. You know, you weren't gonna see me drinking out there while I was riding horses or what have you. But the whole time I was riding them, I was thinking, well, it's it, you know, it's about time to be done. Uh you know, as soon as I get done, you know, I'd be thinking about, and then toward the end of it, I would make sure that I got done a little earlier and a little earlier and a little earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:33

Stop scheduling lessons by one o'clock. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

Exactly. So you know, I was I think I must have been tough, you and I both, because we had that ability to drink until we passed out, whatever time that was. It could be at midnight or two or three in the morning and get up the next morning and go to work again. And do that for years. Years you know, just did that for years. Sometimes not go to bed. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, that is actually that is absolutely right. I did that quite a bit in my twenties. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just the thought about right now is uh scary to me. But that's but we did do it. You know, we did that for years. And uh but you know, going back to your point, you can't you can't save somebody, but there are lots of tools out there to you know, you might just plant a seed, and that's what you don't know about. And I've had unsuccessful tries at sponsoring people, and and probably more of them, you know, if you look at the um percentages of like say we'll we'll use the AA program for an example. Well, people say, well, only, you know, and and I've heard varying stories, but 5% or 10 percent of the people that go in there actually stay that it actually works for. But there's a you know, we were talking about something in the Bible, we'll get to that in a minute. But it says rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. And the key word there is thoroughly followed our path. And rarely have I seen this fail from my personal perspective, my personal experience, if somebody thoroughly followed the path. Okay, but what you see, for first of all, you see a couple different scenarios. You s you see the people that come in there because they just have to get their court card signed. You see people come in there because it's an ultimatum. Yeah, exactly. It's an ultimatum. Um you see, you know, people come in there that maybe don't want to and now here's the deal. Here's the great thing is I I know of a couple handfuls personally that came in there. The only reason they came in there is because they had to have their court card signed. And they ended up going, hey, you know, maybe there is something to this. And, you know, you start you start seeing the joy in the people that uh believe it or not, at an AA meeting, okay, when you still would you hear people telling their harrowing story and laughing about it, that means that they've overcome they've gotten through it, okay. So in the you know, going back a little bit to the seed that you may have planted, you don't know if that kid that you thought you were unsuccessful with five years later something comes to him that you may have said, and at that point the timing is right, and and he's ready to uh give up. That's what you gotta do. You have to it's like being reborn in Christianity. You have to give up the old belief. Life to get the new life. You have to be a loser to be a winner.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:05

So that that is Yeah, the the Bible talks about coming to the end of ourself, right? And it's that surrender of like I don't have any control over this thing anymore, which is ultimately what happened to me. And then it's like it's just like it I think at Wild Courage, you know, at our fires, it's like it's uh what if we invite God into the mess instead of trying to pretending like we're hiding it from him like he doesn't know already. Right. And that invitation I think's a powerful thing can happen, and I've just seen it so many times. But I don't know, I think this is a a needed conversation again. I think our like we've talked about, our heart for this this community is why we're doing it. And I'm grateful for again your friendship and willingness to be so open about your journey and path on it. And also like how many great things are byproduct? We've talked about a lot of the bad things are byproduct. Like dude, I'm not kidding you. I sometimes will be at home alone and walk out of this super cool space we're in right now, and walk outside and look at our little place and our property and our barns and our animals and all the things that bring me and my family joy. And I'm like, I cannot believe this is my life. Right. From where I was not that long ago. And I have the business partner that I have and the business that I have, and then I still get to go play cowboy in the spring and go to Brandon's and raise a few calves, and you know what I mean? Like, I I can't believe it. Like the fruit that's come from this journey and the redemption that's come from you said something a while ago that nobody can choose this for you. This is something, and we talked a lot about having a tribe and having brothers to do this with and walk with. But they're walking with you, but nobody can make this choice for you. It's the scariest thing you will ever do. You can't do it alone. But the but the flip side of that coin is beauty.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

It's beauty from ashes. Um we have talked quite a bit, maybe, you know, I about some, you know, some negative things or or what have you, but the the truth of the hard things. Yeah, the truth of the ugly addiction. But here's what I'll tell you. I I wouldn't trade my life for anything. I I am so grateful to be in it, and it really has nothing to do with finances. It it just is every day I and it doesn't matter where I'm at. Like I'm I'm here at your place right now. And I just think it's not only is the place itself beautiful, your your little place is beautiful, the the surroundings are beautiful. Your family is unbelievably beautiful. Aaron Ross Powell I my my wife is a smoke show dude. Well, there is that. Yeah, I told her last night I said, I I don't know how serious she took me, but I but I said, I just cannot believe that she looks like she looks. I know. Because I know how long I've known her. I I've known her longer than I've known you, matter of fact, come to think of it. And she looks about the damn same as the first day I've met her. She wears the same pants. Yeah. Exactly. So three kids later. Yeah, exactly. No, it's a few years have gone by. No, it is. But we are. I mean, there's just so many things. Like, like what we're talking about is navigating the hard stuff and that you can do that, but there's more, way more good stuff because of the life that we have chosen. Aaron Powell, but it's on the other side of going through the hard thing. Well, but uh it maybe, you know, to a point. But I mean, you're still gonna go through hard things. There's there's gonna be hard things in front of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:37

The choice of sobriety is the hard thing, I'm talking or whatever it is for you. Freedom's on the other side of the scary thing, the hard thing. The beauty's on the other side. Yep. I I was thinking as you were talking just saying that. The the opposite of peace is that war. That war that's inside of us that we feed with the addiction. And when you get when the war dies down and that peace can come in and you can be present. And you gotta do the work. You know, you've got to work do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:21

You know, in the program, it's like say the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, but it's uh you know, that's that's the work, that's the part that a lot of people are. And it's a grind. It is. It doesn't happen overnight. Doesn't happen overnight. But that is um the when we when I talked about rarely has a person failed that has thoroughly followed our path. That's the path. That is the path, is the is the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. And that and that goes to what you're saying. In other words, you you have got to deal with your past. And if you don't deal with your past, you're probably not gonna deal with your future very well. And this change that we're talking about is probably not gonna come if you don't deal with your past. And you don't have to have a terrible harrowing past to have things uh it can just be harrowing to you. It's all relative. It's all relative, exactly. And so everybody has something. And some of it, you know, it when you put it on paper, it sounds pretty traumatic because it was pretty traumatic. And some of it doesn't sound that traumatic at all, but it was harrowing to you. And so whatever that harrowing thing is, you have to deal with it. You have to forgive yourself. You have to get okay with your with your past in order to. Forgive others sometimes too. Forgive others. Probably the hardest thing of all is forgive yourself. Yeah. Um you know, you've got to get where you love, where you love yourself. Now, nobody I don't think anybody does it 100% of the time, by no means. But I I can look in the mirror right now at 61 years old and tell you that I'm all right. Like I am okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:08

And good nothing but good things can come from being in that place. Like we were talking on our drive today. It's like love your neighbors, you love yourself. And we're running around trying to love our neighbors and we hate ourselves because we have shame for what we've done and our past. And that's part of the healing that I think if we skip again, repeating myself, you can't give away what you don't have. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. Yeah, that is exactly right. And this life is really, really messy, but it's also really, really beautiful. It's all around us. And if we can get rid of that war within, then the peace and the love and the beauty and life like changes. Absolutely. And then you can be more gratifying. Then you have more of that to give away back to what we were already talking about. And I you know, I say give it away.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:12

Yeah, I say this all the time. You have to actually literally practice being grateful. If you wanted to get good at golf, the only way you could get good at golf is if you practiced golf a lot. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:25

I think practicing gratitude's a way better use of time than practicing golf. Well, I do too.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:32

But at any rate, I mean it but see, it may not be easy at times. It may not, you know, because depending on what you know what's on your heart that day or what's going on in your life or what have you, but it's just starting with the small things. I mean, you know, we've heard older people say quite often I remember this when I and I didn't pay a damn bit of attention to it, but they'd say, well, you've got to be grateful for the small things. It's true. And and it but I the the older I get, the more I know that there is so much truth to that, and it's all small things. You know, it can be it can be the fact that just what you just ran through when you walk out the door and you look around you and you go, I can't believe this is my life. And you do have an absolutely beautiful, beautiful place and a beautiful family and a beautiful spot, you know. You have you have all of that. But even with all of that, sometimes that can be hard to see if you're not in somewhat of a grateful place. So you got to start. Yeah. No, it does. It happens to all of us. It just doesn't happen to me near as long or as much as it used to, you know. Like I know, I know that if I do get into those bad spots right now, I just have this thing. I have a real, real confidence in me that this too shall pass. That, okay, I'm gonna, you know, it can be, and usually it usually passes sooner if I remember to use one of those tools that I talked about a little bit earlier, pick up that 5,000-pound phone or go help somebody. You know, I'm I'm kind of fond of saying of uh, you know, get the feet moving, and most of the time the mind will follow, and and and that is so true. And I so I'm very, very confident when I do get in those places, which ever I don't know everybody, I everybody I know does from time to time. I'm very confident that I'm gonna get through it and it's gonna be okay, and I'm gonna come out the other end. And at this, you know, at this stage of of my journey where I have worked on this stuff a lot, it doesn't that doesn't last all that long. You know, that that down, that depression, whatever you want to call it. I call it sadness. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's it's it's any of those uh terms that you want to use, uh, that's what what it is, but it's just kind of a funk that you get into and it's gonna pass. And the difference is before I started working on this, before I got sober, I would have one good day out of two weeks. Now I have one bad day out of every week or two, you know, just depending. You know. That's the trajectory. And so that's I mean, that's a huge difference, and and you know, that's that's where it's at. But you gotta work on it, you gotta practice. You gotta practice and just do a do some work on it, you know, on on all of this. So what are you putting your life to these days? Well, still in the horse business. And um I'm very, very lucky that I've got a a partner named Nikki Milliken that that we're we're doing life together, we're doing this journey together, and she's really into what I'm into. Um I I do a lot of students a lot of judging. Uh, you know, I'm here in Nampa judging the best little derby in the West, and and uh that's taken me all over the world. I've been on five continents and all over the United States, Mexico, Canada, and uh I've been an NRHA judge for 35 years. Um you know, I've also got some other judges' cards, but that's my main one. Um I'm doing I'm still training horses, but I just train, I've just got a low, I keep eight to ten horses in training, uh, you know, way different than when you and I met, and we had 30 or 40, you know. Um so that's pretty manageable, and they're all horses that I look forward to getting on every day. And uh the other thing I'm doing, I'm doing a lot of I'm doing quite a few clinics this um this year, you know, and I'm doing them with other people. I've got a clinic I'm doing in Montana with Al Dunning and I'm doing Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's pretty really cool. Yeah. And then I've got a couple clinics I'm doing with Marcy Vermeer, although it's Marcy Starr now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:52

Is she still a non-pro? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:55

She she can't now because she can't do clinics. Well, no, no. See, she trained for many, many years.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:01

Well, I remember when she was I mean, she was a legit big time trainer.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:05

Big like I would uh She got second at the fraturity second at the fraturity by half a point. So on Sean Flerta, right? Yeah, Sean Flerida won it that year. And and um she was the winningest uh woman trainer of all time at one time. Now she quit training horses probably ten years ago. But maybe more. I mean, time flies. I'm just throwing out a number there, but uh but it's been a while back that she quit training horses, but she still helps a lot of people. She has a video series that she does where she helps a lot of people and and um so anyway, now she's kind of starting to get back into clean. She has a lot to offer. You know, she's just a great, great, great horsewoman. So I'm I'm lucky to do a couple of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:49

She was a machine. I remember that's when uh we were running together when she was big time. Yeah. And I was so intimidated. Like even being in the warm-up pen with her, she was all business. Yeah. I mean, and we're friends on Facebook, so I've seen, you know, for whatever that means, I've seen her trajectory change and she got out of it for a while and then fell back in love with it. And like it's been pretty cool from a distance. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:15

She did, you know, she I think she just has maybe one or two horses of her own. That's all she rides. Yeah, that's awesome. And it's it's pretty cool. But um so I do a couple or a clinic this year back up in Montana again with a guy named Jerry Fowler, who's uh uh you know, a guy who'd been training horses 45, 50 years, just like me, tremendous hand. He's also a bit maker. That's he he only rides his own horses now. Like he makes he'll go buy a couple two-year-olds and ride them for a couple years and sell them. And yeah, you know, he does, I think he does pretty well with that, but mainly he makes bits and spurs. Premier spur makers. I mean, absolutely phenomenal bits and made for a horseman by a horseman. Yeah, you know, it's the best. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I've got all that going on, and and man, I mean, my my book is pretty full.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:10

And yeah, I never know where you are. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:12

You know You usually call me from airports and that's when I get a chance to get caught up on all my calls. But you know, life is just good. I I moved back to Skull Valley and kind of back to the old home place, and my dad is still alive. He's 89 years old. He'll be 90 in September. And he called me all excited here a couple weeks ago. I was in California judging a show, and and I said, gosh dang, Dad, what's up? And he says, You're never gonna believe what I got done. I said, Well, what is it? And he says, Well, I just got another ranch lease. 90 on that. I just now we're just talking a little operation. You know, it's always been his hobby, you know, he's always had 25, 30 cows. And but I I sort of gulped because I thought, oh my God, just what we need is more uh things to take care of. More things to take care of. But then I, you know, I just went, oh my god, Dad, that's great. When do we start? Yeah. So that's awesome. But but anyway, you know, and that's the course, you know, my my brother's right there, and and he uh, you know, drills wells. And matter of fact, he's drilling a well as we speak today. I think he started, or yesterday he started. For you and I, down there on our property in Arizona. Kind of exciting. Yeah, very exciting. Yeah, very exciting. So anyway, we're also building another place down in uh down in Wickenburg, of which uh Jeremy, d you are a part of.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:37

Yeah, it's uh the It's so surreal, you know, because I spent all of the nineties into 2000, 2001 in Wickenburg. You know, shoeing horses and riding colts and wrangled some dudes early on, and the the thought of being because sometimes I still feel like I'm 30. Yeah. Because the areas of my life that I don't have like I don't feel like I'm adulting well in. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:05

And the dream of having a someday winter place to go to and be neighbors with you is oh can't yeah, I mean it's gonna come together and it's coming together. We're gonna uh we're gonna do some awesome life together down there. Just looking forward to that. We're just kind of slowly but surely getting that all put together. And so, you know, doing that and and uh man, I don't know, you know, and and just I guess seeking. Uh that's one of the big things. You know, I'm I'm I'm seeking my relationship with Jesus. I try to, you know, put that kind of at the forefront of my agenda and and just go and and just um try to do his will, I suppose. Yeah. Would be a big, you know, a big thing. Sometimes that's not real clear cut. I I don't know whether this is true or not. I uh sometimes you don't know what direction to go and you just kind of maybe, you know, even though you've asked for that guidance, you just kind of take a you just kind of take a stab at it. Well, if it goes real well and kind of smooth, that was probably God's will. And if it doesn't, then maybe you needed to go a little different direction on that. I don't know if that's true or not, but that is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:27

It sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:29

So Um well you're gonna get the new parting shot. In your definition, in one sentence or a short paragraph, what is your definition of a good man?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:49

A good man seeks God first. Um a good man seeks God's direction first.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:59

Um I mean I could elaborate on this a whole bunch, probably, but I mean just to put it real real simple, um you know, a good man is a lot of the things that the Bible says. A good man is kind, a good man is patient. Um for me, um y you know, a good man is works hard, a good man keeps trying, a good man goes through the hard times and comes out the other side. Um a good man takes care of his family to the best of his ability, and I haven't by the way, I haven't always been. I mean, I just haven't always been, but the the more I live, the more important that that is to me. Um a good man is of service to the people around him. Um and a good man, maybe as important as anything, does what he says he's gonna do to the absolute best of his ability.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:07

Good wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:08

Well, I love you. Thank you for being my brother and my friend, and I look forward to many adventures together.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:19

Oh, I I I can't tell you how much I appreciate our friendship, Jeremy. I mean, you're just you're iconic to me, and I you know I love you, and um feelings mutual.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:29

Yeah, it's uh it it it's an honor to be on here. Thank you. Here's to another twenty years together. Yes, sir. Love you, buddy. Thanks, guys. Adios, you know.