036 | Leah Lykos of Canine Movement Lab on Somatic Work and Your Dog as Your Mirror

Leah Lykos, a dog behaviorist out of Chattanooga Tennessee and guardian to three dogs, Eva, Biggie, and Mia explains how her focus is on movement and somatic work. That makes sense given that she operates from the philosophy that for dogs even more so than for humans there is no separation of mind and body.

We discuss something new to me: resistance feeding.

The idea behind resistance feeding is to not control the dog's behavior but to provide an appropriate outlet for it.

Everything is always on a spectrum, so we discuss how to know if you're allowing stress to dissipate or adding to the dog's stress.

In that same sense of knowing if something is helpful or not, we touch on the concept of your dog as a mirror. When is hurting to see it that way and when is it helping?

Leah explains how she differentiates between people who are already so aware of their own stress and so focused on solving for that, that it inhibits them in working with their dog,

and people who are so detached from their body and their feelings. that they have no idea they may be projecting onto their dog.

From there we dig into the inner work we get to do thanks to our dogs.

When you have trouble connecting with your dog, what part of yourself do you have trouble connecting with or accepting?

How does understanding your dog help to understand yourself?

How do we regulate our own nervous system?

Leah explains that it is her daily work to figure out how she can stay passionate about what she's doing, without getting completely wrapped up in every single case.

Links:

Leah's website: https://www.caninemovementlab.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/caninemovementlab/

The YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSlbjJXVMBxSGBgkbNWXOZw

Episode website: https://kajsavanoverbeek.com/035-leah-lykos-of-canine-movement-lab-on-somatic-work-and-your-dog-as-your-mirror/

If you're wondering how to feel less stressed about your career, your dog, your family or all of the above, there are things you can do!

There is still time to join First Things First small group coaching on the (myth of) work-life-dog-balance. We start April 15th 2025. Find out more here:

https://kajsavanoverbeek.com/worklifebalancegroupcoaching/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kajsa: Welcome everyone to another Mindset episode of Rough Around the Edges, and this time I am [00:01:00] talking to someone all the way over in the United States, in Tennessee to be precise, it's Leah Lykos. And I, this is actually the second time that I'm recording this because Rusty barked through the first time and I had this whole intro and what I'm thinking right now is I'm just going to skip that and I'm just gonna hand the mic over to Leah and ask her to introduce herself and what she does, her dogs, the whole thing.

So Leah, over to you. 

[00:01:34] Leah Lykos: Okay. Thank you, Kajsa. Yes, I, I'm a dog trainer in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and my. Company name is Canine Movement Lab, mainly because I put a big emphasis on the way dogs move, the importance of movement, and somatic therapy for dogs. I'm really more of a dog behaviorist, because I help people learn.

[00:02:00] with shy, fearful, reactive, and even aggressive dogs. So that's my specialty. And currently I have three dogs, Eva, Biggie, and Mia. And I guess I'll just say that like I connected with you. I think I started following you on Instagram and I was currently in a mindset coaching program for my business and kind of rethinking, like, maybe I should.

to do coaching for people for their dogs instead of like presenting myself as a dog trainer and then I found you and I was like so intrigued I was like oh that that's what this person's doing it's a thing yeah so that's how I started following you and you know really consuming your content and being really interested in it because for me a big part of Dog training.

When I [00:03:00] work with people is like I'm really comfortable with the dogs and interacting with the dogs, but I have had to really work on my people skills and how to help the people kind of get their, Mindset correct to approach the training because a lot of these dogs have very severe behavioral issues and it's pretty stressful to be honest.

So, um, yeah, I guess that's how we connected. 

[00:03:30] Kajsa: Okay. Hold on because I think I have four, five questions already lined up just by All of the things that you just said. And just for everyone listening, we haven't talked about any of this before. This is completely unscripted. We're just like, whatever comes to mind, we are going to be talking about it.

So you said a couple of things. Um, movement is important and then the somatic work and then the people [00:04:00] work. Okay. That's three things, not four or five, but that's. Already things that I want to know more about. So, for example, when you say I find movement very important, what do I make of that? What does that mean?

and Tail. 

[00:04:18] Leah Lykos: Sure, so, my feeling is that whatever the dog is doing physically, is usually a representation of how they're feeling emotionally, so, even more so than humans, I feel like the dog is in the moment with like really no separation between mind and body. So I think instead of like having thoughts about things, I think they have feelings and you can see those feelings in the way they hold their body, in their muscle tone, in the way that they move.

Like, so if their movement is very, [00:05:00] Laminar and like it looks very flowy. It's pleasant to look at. You kind of get a nice feeling when you see this dog running through a field, like that dog feels good or the mouth is open. The eyes are relaxed. The jaw is. relaxed, you can sense with your gut, just with a quick glance at the dog, what their emotional state is.

So it's not just movement. It's the whole, it's taking in the whole body and what the body is doing. Um, and then kind of in conjunction with that, what I see in a lot of training is that we're trying to control the dog's movement instead of kind of like embracing their need to move when they feel aroused by something.

So I placed a lot of emphasis on that by playing tug. We do a lot of resistance feeding or even resistance training so that instead of asking the dog to not have energy or not show their [00:06:00] energy, we're asking the dog to express their energy, but in a constructive and flowy way that feels good. So, like, if a dog gets stuck in their reactivity, they're either Freezing up or they're lunging, surging at something.

We need to take that energy and then help them move in a way that feels good and expresses, uh, a coherent emotional state. 

[00:06:25] Kajsa: Okay. Um, uh, more questions coming up. First of all, I have not heard of the term resistance feeding before. What is that? Okay. 

[00:06:36] Leah Lykos: It's something that I learned from my trainer under whom I apprenticed and He created natural dog training and in that system, it's actually called pushing because the dog is pushing for food.

What I found is confusing for people is when I call it pushing, they think they're supposed to be pushing the dog [00:07:00] away from them. But what we want to do as people is offer resistance as we feed the dog. And there are many different ways to do this, whether the dog's on a back tie, a helper could be holding your dog in a harness, or you just offer resistance.

with your non dominant hand. So what we are doing as the human is resistance feeding. What the dog is doing is pushing their body into you, expressing their drive and then ingesting food. And this helps complete a predatory cycle where like, say the dog gets aroused by Squirrel or a cat. So now they're, they get fixated, right.

And they can't complete that cycle because we're not going to let them. Go after, chase squirrels. They're on a leash. Even if they're free, they're not, they're unlikely. They're going to actually catch and eat a squirrel, right. Or like bring it back to the den. So we have to do something with that energy.[00:08:00] 

So overcoming the resistance kind of simulates. the hunt and the resistance that they would overcome by taking down prey and then they get to actually ingest food which completes, again, it completes that predatory sequence so the dog feels grounded again. 

[00:08:20] Kajsa: I have tons of stuff coming up in my mind because I think I can see it and also I see a danger, I guess, in the sense of When are we like frustrating the dog?

Like, how do you know that, you know, like, how do you, how, I guess we never know, but how do we know that this is beneficial to the dog? And I'm just, I'm just thinking that because I'm continuously always also challenging the way I interact with my dog as well. And one of the things was, I think. I might have just done a post or an email or about it where I was like, okay, [00:09:00] before, for example, if I would teach, I guess a leave it or whatever you want to call it, you know, like in the old days, I would just offer the treat on my hand and then the dog wants to get it, close the hand.

And then if the dog backs up, open the hand and then say, okay, you know, whatever release word, and then go get the treat. Whereas if I were to teach that now, now that I'm like more into, for example, um, what's the, the errorless training, I would probably. Train it differently or try to train it differently so that there's less frustration inside of the dog.

And I'm, if I hear this, like my, my brain is going to, okay, so how is, like, what is this like for the dog? Is this a situation that's similar to that or not? Like, how do we know that the dog is. Yeah, probably not frustrated or probably not annoyed by this or like, what are the risks involved? Tell me like how you, I just, I'm just curious, like, tell me all the things.

What do you look out for? What is the, like, what [00:10:00] cues are you, um, taking into account? This is the first time I've heard of this, so I'm super intrigued. 

[00:10:08] Leah Lykos: Yeah, so it's uh, it's kind of a new way to train using the dog's drive and those are all great questions Because there is a caveat to this if you have a dog that's very Let's say they have resource guarding then this is something that can actually bring up There's stress around food and you have to be careful.

So if you have that type of dog, I'm sure you would have some inkling that like your dog guards his food bowl. So when you first start doing this, it will activate that very trigger. So there are instances where we would work on a different activity first, like actually doing some bite work and tugging.

So I get what you're saying. It's like, are we frustrating the dog? [00:11:00] Not really on purpose. What we're actually trying to do is resolve their frustration because if you're walking your dog on a leash and say they see a squirrel, but they're not allowed to chase the squirrel, they're already building frustration.

So this is a way for them to express their drive and actually resolve it rather than continue to feel frustrated by the restraint of the leash. 

[00:11:27] Kajsa: And if I, if I hear you correctly, you sort of check in with the dog and their character and who they are and then choose what am I, I guess, what am I going to do to help them complete the stress cycle?

Is it going to be, like you said, resistance feeding or is it maybe Something else that works better for this dog and doesn't add to the frustration. Cause I guess if I hear you say you like, you want to, you, this is my interpretation, I want to complete the stress cycle, that's how I hear it for the, for the [00:12:00] dog, like let it come to its natural closure.

And if you have a dog who is, for example, like you said, resource guarding or whereby is taking or keeping away or making them work against that pressure for their food is more of a trigger, then we're not closing it. We're just adding. on for that particular dog, or am I getting it? 

[00:12:20] Leah Lykos: It actually does resolve it, but you just have to be careful not to add too much.

resistance right away because some dogs will like snap and bite your hand. Um, I'm talking about pretty severe behavioral cases. So like typical pet owner, typical dog that doesn't have really severe resource guarding, it's not dangerous to do with them. Um, I'm talking about dogs who like already have bite histories, maybe a history of abuse.

Those are cases that would be approached maybe a little bit differently. But You just have to think about like [00:13:00] all the stimulation that your dog normally takes in just from being a dog, just from being a predator aroused by prey, or being territorial against other dogs coming into their space, um, Which is instinctual and biological.

So we're taking those situations and giving the dog a way to work with that energy so that they feel grounded and kind of come back to a neutral state. Um, but some dogs have more say toy drive, like my, um, pit bull would much rather bite and tug a toy when she saw a squirrel rather than push for food.

[00:13:44] Kajsa: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So this was sort of what I was thinking that you. match it to the character or the type or, well, I guess to the dog in front of you. So what would you see then if, um, you know, when you're working with them like [00:14:00] that, so they, they're aroused and then, you know, like you, you either, like for your people, you would maybe work with the toy and the biting and then, or for another dog, it would be this type of resistance feeding.

What happens? What do I see? I'm, I'm already fascinated. Like what, what would I see? 

[00:14:19] Leah Lykos: Yeah, so you want to lay a little bit of a foundation with like a positive interrupt. So I always say ready. That's the like cue word to like, hey, get ready. We're going to work, but our work is really play training. So You kind of lay a foundation.

If you have a backyard where it's low stimulation and low distraction, that's where I would like charge up that ready word and same way you would charge up any sort of like cue. We use tons of food or games. I let the dog chase me. I play with the dog. Ready just means Hey, get ready. We're going to do something really [00:15:00] exciting.

So when they see something then out in the wild or in the world, when you leave your yard or leave the house and they feel that high level of arousal or excitement, or even play drive towards another dog, the key is if you're not able to let your dog run and chase and play with, you know, Everybody or everything that it wants to then they can look to you and you can play with them and resolve that So it's either again, you're right.

It's it totally depends on the dog. Some dogs are very motivated by play So the the thing is just to teach them that they can turn to you to get what they need So they don't have to continue feeling that frustration of oh, I'm always on the leash I can never get to the thing I want And then with like the handler, always telling the dog.[00:16:00] 

Not to have energy to like sit and look and stay and calm down. Like I'm asking the dog, Hey, I want you to show me that energy. 

[00:16:13] Kajsa: Got it. What was the second thing that I was talking about? So we did movement, but it was the somatic side of it. How does that tie in? 

[00:16:25] Leah Lykos: Yeah, I mean, that's basically what we're talking about is just using the body and the dog's expression of energy as a way to resolve their stress and so some of the other, I guess you could say, somatic technologies that we would use are teaching the dog to bark on command.

That's a really good way to resolve stress. It's also a great way to, um, Teach impulse control because what we're doing is when the dog feels a level of stress and arousal where they would normally like surge and bark, if we can get them [00:17:00] to collect themselves and bark, we're still allowing for their emotional energy to move and for them to project that emotional energy forward while they're holding their body.

back in a collected manner. So that's a little more complicated to explain but it's a little bit more of a refinement of the resistance feeding or searching for a toy. Basically what we're doing is we're collecting the dog's drive and attracting it to us and then we can do different things with it. So you don't always have to resistance feed, you don't always have to let the dog bite and tug.

You do need them to engage with you and then do something with their energy. So getting them collected and then allowing them to bark on command or asking them to bark on command is another sort of somatic way of moving the dog's energy. Trying to think 

[00:17:53] Kajsa: of Applications for us. So I'm just thinking with the barking on cue, [00:18:00] I have sort of maybe half, but not entirely reliably taught Rusty, um, bark.

Not really, because the first time that I, like that we clicked and reinforced, well, wasn't really clicking though. We just reinforced that he did the cutest little huff and he did a cute little jump. And so now his whisper cue is, let me half jump up with my two friend paws and then do Khufu. And that's.

whisper. So then we tried speak as in, you know, like do a proper bark. And what happens at the moment is that he will start off with a whisper and then us idiots who have, you know, like repeated the cue 10 times, which you're never supposed to, but still we're human and we do it. So we just go like, no, no speak.

And then of course we get louder and then we get even louder. Um, so at one point we're like, oh, speak. And then he goes like, Oh, right. That's what you mean. Okay, fine. Uh, but how could I [00:19:00] then use this in, like, would you say, for example, he sees a cat in the street, which is cats are like arch enemy number one.

And then that amps him, amps him up. So what I, what, what I would've been doing up until now would be, um, like just sort of see the cat, throw a piece of food, see the cat, throw a piece of food to the point where we can then just walk by the cat. Um, but would you say then you could maybe use the barking and say, you know what I see, I, I.

See that you're riled up, there's the cat, you know what, let's do a couple of speak barks and then just get it out. Would that be something 

[00:19:41] Leah Lykos: or? I, I would, yeah. It, it, it depends on Rusty. If he likes that pathway as a way to express himself and that's the quickest way to get him coherent and engaging with you, then like, yes, he could bark.

You could even [00:20:00] create like this whole flow where like, he barks, then he pushes into you for food, then he collects and he goes into a down and then he recalls to you. So it kind of depends on, on you and your dog and what the dynamic is and kind of how he best expresses himself. He might like to see the cat turn towards you, bite the tug, carry the tug toy.

You know, play a little tug with him, let him win, and then he carries the toy. 

[00:20:29] Kajsa: Got it. Well, I mean, I'm like my, my brain's already gone. Like, yeah, forget about the tug. He's not a big, he's not a big tugger. Although I do carry it, uh, a tug. Like I have my whole little, you know, treat pouch and then the tug and the muzzle, the whole thing, like it feel like I'm completely packed when I go outside.

Um, I'm just brainstorming this. You're, you're just giving me ideas. What, which I like. Which maybe that's a nice segue into the other thing that I wanted to ask you because, [00:21:00] um, so where I am at right now with all the thought work and the mindset work that I've done for myself, I feel pretty okay with, you know, like collecting.

Pieces of information from all over, different trainers, different professionals, and trying to figure out, okay, does this jive with me? Does this work with my values? With how I want to work with my dog? All of those things. Um, but that took me quite a bit, um, to get there and to figure out, like you said, like, okay, this is, this is.

There's no one generic piece of, of advice that works for every dog, that works for every human or for every dog human team. And you said that at the beginning when you did the little introduction, one of the things that I'm working on is, you know, dealing with the people. How do you work with your, your humans?

And I'm guessing that your humans might, have questions or they, [00:22:00] um, I'm pretty sure not all of them are just going to go like, yeah, I'm just going to do everything that Leah says. And I'm just not going to question anything. And let's get, I mean, guess that that might be ideal from a trainer perspective.

Like I say, you do it. Um, but how do you deal with that aspect? And what do you notice in your, your humans? What are they struggling with? Is it, Figuring out what works for their dog, figuring out what works for them, do they push back? Is it, is that hard? Is that hard on you? Um, so tell me a little bit more about that, that human side of it.

[00:22:40] Leah Lykos: Yes, it can be challenging. I do have Like a handful of clients who just from the get go are like, I love this, I totally get it, and they get right on board and they do everything I tell them to, and it's amazing. Most people are like, [00:23:00] I don't want the dog to bark, why are you teaching the dog to bark? Or like, I'm really big on letting the dogs make contact, which I let the dogs hop up and put their feet on me, their front feet.

Um, because I think it's better for the dog to make contact with me than to constantly feel frustrated that he can't make contact with everybody else. And so he, yeah, a big part of this is Most people are telling me, I'm teaching the dog not to jump up. I'm teaching my dog not to bark. And now you're telling me you want the dog to jump up and bark and all of that.

So it's, uh, it's quite challenging at times. And sometimes people get on board and sometimes they don't, or they get kind of like partially on board and we modify the exercises and we keep the dog on the ground. And like, I'm totally open. To that, I do find that wherever the [00:24:00] human has A block is kind of related to where the dog is having issues.

So this might be where we can talk about that, um, kind of idea that your dog is your mirror. And I know that, uh, you know, in the little correspondence that we had, We talked about whether or not that's even helpful to introduce that concept and I think for some people it is and some people are already so kind of, I don't want to say obsessed, but like They're so worried about how their emotional state is affecting the dog that like I don't want to talk about that.

I want to relieve a lot of their fears and stress around that by saying look your dog has his own issues and we're going to work with your dog. Let's not focus on what's going on with you right now because they're almost like [00:25:00] too focused on it. It almost like inhibits them. They think they have to like fix all their own problems.

Issues before the dog will be okay. 

[00:25:09] Kajsa: Exactly. Yeah. And this is so interesting because, um, when you brought that up for, for me, the, the first thing was like, Oh, and that's the thing I wish everyone would stop saying, like your dog mirrors you or your dog picks up on your stress. But. Again, it's not as black and white as that.

And I think what it comes down to is precisely what you just described. It is what you do with that. And for a lot of like my people. They are the super empathic perfectionists who want to do, like, they're already going above and beyond for their dog. Half of the time they're just not seeing it. And then when you add something like, okay, I'm just going to use stress rather than your, the direct of your [00:26:00] dog mirrors you.

If it's your dog picks up on your stress, what a lot of my clients then try to, or tend to do, is go, oh, I can't be stressed because my dog's going to pick up on that. So before I get out the door, I have to be all zen. And I always, well, don't joke, or, but I thought I do joke because we also have a lot of fun in our coaching sessions, is Yeah, how does that feel?

Like, oh, I can't be stressed. I have to be all zen now. I have to be calm. So to me, that's just that thought of I have to be calm. I have to get rid of the stress before I walk out the door because otherwise, you know, whatever can go wrong will go wrong because my dog's picking up on it. That is so stress inducing.

I don't even want you to think about that. Like, your dog is perfectly capable of being stressed without you. Your dog is also perfectly capable of being zen without you. Um, so let's not even go there. But exactly for the reason that of, of what [00:27:00] that does with the human. Whereas if the human goes, you know, Yeah, my dog picks up on my stress and uses that in a scenario where it helps them, right, where it serves them, then I'm all for it.

So I guess in that sense, nothing's ever black and white. To me, it's all about what is the, I guess, what is the sentence, what does the belief do for you? And the same, I guess, is true for when, when we're working with labels. Sometimes saying I have a reactive dog can be super helpful because it gives you a way to name what's going on.

It's like, Oh, is that what it is? Okay. Now that, Oh, and there's other people who have reactive dogs. Oh, right. But, but when it becomes, I have a reactive dog and this is the end of the world, then I want to say ditch, ditch the label. So again, it's all with. The interpretation and does it serve the people? So in, in your world and how you are, [00:28:00] are working with it, like you said, there's the, there's the people who are already so involved where you say, okay, we're just going to focus on the, um, on the dog and we're just going to leave you out of it.

That's probably more where I am with a lot of my clients. But the other part, I'm also very curious about that. Like when you think it could be helpful to say, That who are those people and what, how do you work with that? And also it's like three questions in one, how do you know which of those humans you're dealing with?

[00:28:33] Leah Lykos: Wow, yeah, that's really interesting. I guess I see it like everyone's kind of on a spectrum. So on, you know, we kind of talked about the people who are already super sensitive, very empathic. They totally understand that their dog is connected to them on a really deep level and is feeling what they are feeling.

They, that the dog can pick up on their stress. And then you have [00:29:00] people who are How do I say this? They're a little less in touch with their own feelings or their own embodiment and they don't really understand the way that they're, they might be projecting onto the dog or they might be kind of not emotionally open to their dog and unable to create like a really trusting bond with the dog because they're kind of Blows it off even to themselves.

So of course, how can they open themselves emotionally to the dog? So that person who might be a little less aware of their own emotions, how their emotional state is affecting the dog, then I might introduce A little bit of that just slowly. I guess to give an example of when I do think it's helpful, I have [00:30:00] a rescue dog right now who I have really struggled to bond with and so I had to look at, oh, how is this, how is this young fearful dog kind of representing a part of myself that I don't want to connect with.

[00:30:19] Kajsa: And 

[00:30:22] Leah Lykos: it really helped. I'm still struggling with it quite a bit to be honest, but I have to remind myself That if there's a reason why I feel I can't bond with or accept this dog It's because there's part of me that's not there That's actually exactly like her that I'm not ready to kind of like integrate.

So, I mean, that's kind of, that gets a little bit deeper and heavier than like most people want to go, like. Looking at internal family systems and you know your inner child and [00:31:00] Reparenting yourself, but I mean it has helped a lot It's helped me and so the more open I am obviously to the dog because I'm like, oh, this is a part of myself I don't like it's not that I don't like her like there's not really anything wrong with the dog, you know But it helps me understand the relationship and then be more open 

[00:31:25] Kajsa: Would you say when you do the work that you are more inclined to start with yourself or with your dog?

And let me explain what I, what I mean by that. So something that I, I've preached, so to say, is, is radical self acceptance. Like accept every bit of yourself. The parts you hate, the parts you would rather tuck away, all of those. Because when you do, and it doesn't matter where you start, um, but [00:32:00] when, like, if you start with yourself, you will find it easier to accept.

the parts of your dog also that, you know, you might not like, but it also works the other way around. So for some people, it's much easier to say, Oh, this dog is reactive or this dog has, I don't know, can't come up with something else. Reactive is always, because that's my sort of frame of easiest frame of reference is always an easy one.

It's like, okay, but that doesn't mean Uh, that they're a bad dog. For some people it's easier to start at the dog and then figure out, okay, that, that reactivity is part of them, that they are still a great dog. And then to use that and project it or, or work on themselves from that same sort of scenario where they're like, okay, wait a minute, if this, if, A reactive dog is a great dog and a good dog and it doesn't mean anything bad, then if I think about myself that I am too, [00:33:00] I don't know, too rude or not selfless enough or whatever it is that we're thinking about ourselves somehow, then that doesn't mean that I'm a bad person either, and then I can maybe also start to embrace and love those parts of myself, then that also works.

Um, and like I said, for some people, it's easier to start with them, and then that helps them accept a dog. For some people, it's easier to start with a dog, and then it helps them. Except them, like where would, it's probably spectrum, but where would you say that you, you were, like, was it for you more start with me and then that helps with the dog or was it more the other way around?

[00:33:35] Leah Lykos: I definitely found that working on myself was kind of like the the first step. So like 10 years ago, I got sober. I started going to therapy. I started really kind of waking up from just operating out of my unconscious patterns. And then the dogs got so much better without me even doing [00:34:00] anything with the dogs.

So for me, it was like that. The beautiful thing about the training that I do with the dogs and teach people to do is that because it's so based on movement and somatics and moving energy and reading the dog's body language is that even if somebody is not open to looking at themselves, they've come to me for help with the dog.

So they are open to studying their dog, looking at their dog's body language. Maybe like hypervigilance or sensitivity. And again, looking at the body language and understanding like, Oh, that trigger makes my dog feel really uncomfortable. And I need to help him either get out of this situation or move his energy or comfort him.

And then I think it helps them even if it's unconsciously, they start [00:35:00] to kind of understand themselves. Through studying the dog, and they may or may not have those insights, like I said, consciously, but I do think it helps even in a small way, and so even if the, the human gets a little bit of relief from their own anxiety about why they are, the way they are, then it helps them relax a little bit.

And then if they relax a little bit, then the dog relaxes a little bit. And then things kind of start like spiraling upward. Even if we never have that direct conversation about mirroring, because I think it also goes both ways. Like, I'm very attracted to dogs who have severe behavioral issues. That makes my life sometimes really stressful.

So now I'm kind of picking up on my dog's [00:36:00] stress. You know, like, it's a two way street. I can't say like, oh, my dog's only like that because of me and my stress. Like, I've taken on some dogs that come with really heavy baggage and that. affects my emotional state because of co regulating and co disregulating that happens.

So I think these are all really interesting questions and I, for everybody, the process is a little bit different. 

[00:36:32] Kajsa: It's funny that you say that I, that you also pick up on your dog's stress because I've, I've started noticing that as well, that sometimes I'm on a walk. And then I, I feel really antsy a little bit and I go, what's going on?

And then I realized that Rusty's been very, you were talking about body language of the dog. Like his body language was off. It was very, everything was very tense. There's a lot of like, you know, like whipping the [00:37:00] head from left to right. And there's just a lot of, for him, it's usually you just see tenseness.

You see it in the way he carries his tail. You see it in the way his ears are pricked. Uh, and then I realized that I'm picking up on that and I noticed, okay, hold on a second. I gotta do something with this. Gotta feel my way through that. And then, you know, like I'm good to go and to, to continue on the walk again.

So it definitely works both ways. But I like that you mentioned the upward spiral, because I think what happens for a lot of people is they get caught in the Opposite of that one, like in the downward spiral. And then it becomes just so hard to, um, to break it. Well, at least, you know, like that's, that's what I helped them with.

And then they do realize what was going on and they do manage to change it into an upward cycle. You said for some people, like we could do this without even, you know, addressing the mirroring. Do you feel that [00:38:00] there's, or are you now also just really addressing it specifically? For them, like, are you talking to them about them and just leaving the dog completely out of it doesn't work because the dog's part of their life, but like really addressing their part.

Um, also if I hear that, you know, like you've done a lot of work, so you probably have a lot of tools at your disposal already. Is that something that you're doing or are you really trying to keep it sort of under the guise of working with the dog still? 

[00:38:31] Leah Lykos: That, that's how I do it. I keep it, I mostly keep it focused on the work with the dog and I address the dog's health, their emotional well being from like many different angles, from nutrition, supplements, exercise, biological fulfillment.

The playing, the training through the play, tapping into the dog's natural drives, making sure [00:39:00] they're spending enough time outside. Um, so all of these things, I'm kind of like a health coach for dogs, but then what happens is because people are getting outside with their dog and playing and moving and exercising, like the people start to feel better and they also start to see the importance of taking care of their dog.

Their dog's needs from like the bottom up approach, they kind of start to realize. that without me even coaching them on what they need, they kind of see like, Oh, maybe I should be spending more time outside or maybe I need more exercise. And these things naturally resolve anxiety and stress. And so it kind of goes hand in hand, but it's like, I don't, I don't call myself a coach.

I'm not a trained therapist, so I can't [00:40:00] It's difficult for me to say, Hey, don't you think you feel scared in these situations? And maybe that's why you brought this dog into your life is to show you that you actually are afraid of men. Like that's really bold to like just come out and say that to somebody who has hired you as a dog trainer.

I have gotten to that point with certain clients if we build enough rapport and I can say like, Hey, Heather, I think this might actually be your issue, you know, um, something like that and very receptive to it. This is like after months of working together and creating a relationship where I can broach that subject.

But really going through the channel of just focusing on the dog's health and well being and the importance of biological fulfillment. And exercise and trust and safety and connection. They kind of get it through that. 

[00:40:57] Kajsa: I love that. I mean, I do always say [00:41:00] how you do one thing is how you do everything.

And that definitely translates. If we're talking about how that translates, for example, the nutrition, the movement, the triggers, all of that. For the dog, you've given a couple of examples, like the. Asking the dog to bark or tug or, um, the, the resistance feeding. How does that translate for you? Like what, what do you, this is maybe nasty question.

I'm putting you on the spot, but what, what do you do for you when you are in the amped up state? Like, what is, what are your. coping strategies. 

[00:41:38] Leah Lykos: Yes. I, well, I, I go through different phases depending on what's going on with me emotionally. Last summer, I went to kickboxing. That was extremely therapeutic for me.

I think I had blocked a lot of my anger and it was coming out as anxiety. So uncovering those [00:42:00] layers through kickboxing, going to the gym, I do my own resistance work at the gym. I go to yoga for stillness and mindfulness. I go and get massage. That's actually one thing we didn't talk about. Like massage is a big part of what I teach people, like how to touch the dog in a way that's not just petting, but actually like supporting the nervous system.

So if I'm doing my own work, which I'm not always great at, I will make sure that like, I go and get myself a massage. Or I make sure I meet friends for coffee so that I have connection with other people. It's a whole range of things. So the kickboxing to me would be like the equivalent of like playing tug with the dog.

Like they get to fight, you know? So I get to kind of like fight through my anger by punching a bag. If you get stuck on one thing, you, you could actually reduce your emotional capacity. So just like with the dogs, it's important to [00:43:00] have activities where they. express a high level of arousal and drive.

Like we also need to teach them how to then relax after that event. So I think I'm going off kind of on a tangent, but those are some of the things, I guess, examples of things that I would do for myself that would kind of be analogous to what we're doing for the dogs. 

[00:43:26] Kajsa: I like that you mentioned the variety of things though.

Um, and that you're also trying out different things. Like if If I distill correctly, the kickboxing was, like you said, it was something that I was doing, was it this summer? Did you say this summer? Um, and then maybe you tried other things as well. Is this something that you had to train that was a conscious thing at first and then now becomes more of a habit of, Oh, I feel this.

This is probably my, you know, like my trigger, [00:44:00] my sign to start moving my body, or this is my, Um, sign to, you know, maybe pull out the yoga mat or do something else or go for a walk in nature. Was there, I mean, not, not to say that it's ever finished, but was there some kind of skill building involved in that?

Or did that just progress naturally? I guess that is skill building and progressing naturally is more or less intertwined, but. 

[00:44:27] Leah Lykos: Yes, I would say it wasn't so much a conscious. process, although I am, it is really important to me to work on, you know, self development, self awareness. It was more trial and error and then like experiencing the pain of like burnout when I wasn't taking care of myself.

So it was more the consequences that drove me to develop a practice of self awareness. And again, like I'm not, [00:45:00] nobody's perfect at it. Like I still sometimes over schedule myself. And Let myself get to the point of burnout where it's like, oh, I don't want to get off the couch today, but I have to because I scheduled all these appointments and then I'm feeling really bad because I haven't taken care of myself.

And so on top of feeling physically and emotionally burnt out, I'm then like beating myself up for like not preventing that because I know better. So that's where actually, Um, I'd love to talk to you about the mindset and the self awareness and, um, but yeah, I think over time, it's just trial and error and also trying to avoid pain, the pain of not 

[00:45:44] Kajsa: feeling well.

Of the consequence. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I just, I just. For everybody listening, I want to really emphasize this. It is like, it is not perfect. We will get like, we will mess things [00:46:00] up a hundred percent. We will get to the point where we're like, Oh, I'm getting there again. Or I'm getting close to this burnout.

Or maybe you even get into a second burnout or whatever it is. And that is normal. The only thing to do there is to just go, Oh, that's interesting. And then. Pick it back up. Funnily enough, I know I was just talking like on a podcast with Amy of Prophet Behavior. I was talking actually about Rusty and how he had regresses, not the right word, but because he had back pain and because it was flaring up, his reactivity also increased and flare was flaring up, I guess, if you want to put it that way.

And I was kind of figuring out. What to do, because, okay, yeah, we figured out it was the pain, we got him on pain meds, but of course now he rehearsed the pattern. It had become, you know, like it sort of ingrained a little bit again. And what she said in that episode was, [00:47:00] you just go back to basics. You know what to do.

Like, you know what to do when there's reactivity in play. That's it. You already know that there's no, like, there's no magic involved there. You just do the thing and hearing you say this, this is my, my long way around. That's how my brain works. It's the same for humans. You're going to get to a part where it's like, Ooh, I'm back here.

Or I'm back at this place that I didn't really want to be. And you just go back to basics. Like you, you just do the same thing. There's no judgment, no, no, nothing on it. No need to beat yourself up. No need for all of that. It's like, Oh, I'm here. Got it. I just have to do all those things that are going to get me out of it again.

And you very rightfully pointed out that, you know, like you're feeling bad and then you're, you're adding to the bad because. of oh, I should know better. I think that's the [00:48:00] whole sort of thing that is coaching is simply peeling off that second layer. We're not going to be able to prevent bad stuff from happening.

We also don't want to always feel happy peppy because That's nonsense. When you feel, when something bad happens, you want to feel bad, but that second layer, yeah, that I should have known better. That's I think what, what gets addressed there. So I love that. I also actually very much love the idea of, of kickboxing.

Um, my kids and I were always like, when are we buying that punching bag? We should put up the punching bag somewhere in the house. Uh, we haven't done that yet for my, my movement. outlet is swimming. So. Oh, nice. Um, what about taking time for you without the [00:49:00] dogs? Do you do that? And how do you feel about that?

And how do your clients feel about doing that? 

[00:49:09] Leah Lykos: Yes, that's a super important and I think especially where I work directly with a lot of client dogs, plus I have three of my own dogs, and fulfilling all of their physical and emotional needs. And I feed raw, so that's a whole thing where I'm preparing food and.

Calculating their diets. It's, it's a lot. And, and so sometimes I do want to go on a hike with my friends and not bring my dogs. And sometimes people are surprised. They're like, oh, you didn't bring your dogs. It's like, no, I need, I need some time to just be a human and be with my, with my Pack of humans.

Like, that's actually really important not to feel guilty about that because, [00:50:00] um, they're, they're pretty 

[00:50:04] Kajsa: needy. They're pretty Really? Mine is never. Never. What are you talking about? So, 

[00:50:15] Leah Lykos: yeah, you have to, it's like Bill, you have to recharge your battery with whatever that means for you. You know, having dinner with a friend or yeah, going for a walk without the dogs and don't feel bad about it.

Like they're okay. 

[00:50:35] Kajsa: We hope. And even if they are not, we're kidding people again. I just, I just want to have addressed that because I think that is so important. Still such a big issue for people that the amount of guilt they feel for, you know, taking care of themselves or going somewhere without the dog.

If you have a dog with severe separation anxiety and you're working up your minutes, please don't like, we're not trying to gaslight you here or trying to [00:51:00] tell you, like, do all those things. No, but just to find a way to also take care of your own needs. I'm just curious if you want to talk about this or, or not, but because you mentioned burnout.

And one of the things, uh, that actually the, that there's a lot of talk about right now is also burnout amongst dog professionals. And so a lot of the people that I've talked to, they either, they fall into sort of two groups or two camps. One is I had a job, uh, I burned out. And I decided I wanted to do something different with my life and I had this challenging dog or whatnot.

And I just, that turned me onto the path of dog training. The other camp is sort of being a dog trainer and also burning out as a dog trainer because of the. Huge emotional toll that it takes. The fact that most [00:52:00] dog trainers, and I guess dog trainer, like we've talked about, isn't probably not even the right term anymore because we're also working with the humans, or you are, I shouldn't say we, because I'm not a dog trainer, but those people are highly empathic, highly involved.

And so being able to step back or, uh, being able to put up boundaries is difficult. On top of that, the whole, I can't save them all, or that part for you, if you want to talk about it was the burnout as a dog trainer. Um, like what do you think contributed to it? And would you have something to say to people who are in the same boat long way around?

[00:52:44] Leah Lykos: Yes. Part of the more recent burnout I was experiencing, I believe was Highly related to compassion fatigue where I am working with [00:53:00] highly traumatized dogs who are experiencing above average levels of stress and anxiety throughout their day and I'm trying to resolve that for them and give them some relief while also Educating the owners and sometimes becoming a little too emotionally involved with that Either an individual dog or attached to the results that that dog is going to get or not get because of what the owner is or is not capable of doing.

And so that is something that I'm still working on trying to figure out like how do I stay passionate about what I'm doing, but also keep some sort of boundary where I'm, I don't get [00:54:00] completely wrapped up in every single case, like entangled with the result and feeling like so much pressure on me that like, if they, if the owner, say the owner decides to rehome the dog or return it to the shelter, which does happen.

I feel that I failed. I either failed to rehabilitate the dog, I failed to educate the owner. Uh, it is very, a very real thing. It's, it's extremely emotional. So I'm still working on that. I'm actually reading a book right now called Trauma Stewardship, which I would recommend, which does talk a lot about how, how do you manage this?

How do you about your clients, but not care so much that it takes over your whole emotional life. So I think a lot of caring [00:55:00] professionals This happens to them. And then I think with the dogs, it's, there's this sense that like the dog is this helpless player and it's like my job to educate the owner and really help the owner to kind of facilitate this dog's emotional rehab and journey back to health.

And so like, like I said, if that's not successful, it, uh, it feels bad. You know, there's no way around it. It just, there's ups and downs. And then you have cases where it's like, wow, this person really surprised me. They completely committed a hundred percent to the training plan. And within like a few months, the dog is like a different dog.

So you kind of have to ride on those highs and remind yourself that like every situation is different. Some people are going to find great success. The dog is almost like. Ready to change. And then [00:56:00] other times it's just not a partnership that works out. And that's not really my fault because obviously I was able to help in these other cases.

So it's not something that I did or didn't do. It just kind of like either wasn't meant to be, or, you know, I don't know. I'm still struggling with that, to be honest. 

[00:56:20] Kajsa: Yeah. I would almost want to go into coaching here, but I think what that, or how I work on that. With, I'm going to say, I'm just going to call them my people.

And they're there. I also work with, not just with dog guardians, but with dog trainers who are dealing with this, is to redefine the story, to redefine failure. Cause right. This is the first thing that we say, like, I feel like I failed. Failed is if we're talking about. Labels. Failed is a label that we put on the situation and failed makes you feel a certain way, pretty [00:57:00] crappy in general.

And is that helpful? Can we tell the story in a different way that doesn't? Gaslight us, that doesn't negate what's going on, but that allows us to deal with it in a more productive way. Can we deal with feeling awful without letting it consume us? Because again, if what I mentioned earlier, the second layer of things, we feel awful And we tend to make that want to go away as quickly as possible so that we can help the next dog, which we can't help if we're feeling awful.

And this pushing away of the awfulness is usually counterproductive. And so the, the pushing away of it, the not wanting it there, the fighting it, that's the second layer. That's what I work on with my people, but it's really like redefining this story, redefining what it [00:58:00] does, what it means. To do your best and uncoupling that of the result, which doesn't mean that if the result is positive, that we don't get to use that and have a big party and use that to stimulate us and move us forward.

Because exactly like I said earlier, that is something that is serving us. That is something that's helping us. But also Really uncoupling. Yeah, I'm just, there's no other way for me to put it. Like uncoupling the idea of failure and wins from the result. Like let the win be how you showed up, right? But let that be it.

And not necessarily the result of the client or the result for the dog, while at the same time, allowing the sadness and the grief and all of that. It's a bit meta, but that's, you Um, what came up for me as you said that. Um, also, this is nothing to do with you, but I am going [00:59:00] to plug it. Annie Phoenix, who was on the podcast earlier and who wrote a book about, um, positive reinforcement training for reactive and aggressive dogs.

She actually started a foundation. So I'm just going to put it out there for the trainers listening, for professionals in the animal, uh, training industry. So dog trainers and not, not just dog trainers who help them with, um, This foundation helps them with these topics. So burnout, there's a suicide prevention aspect to it too, because among stock trainers and like we said, like the people are always like, these are the empathic people.

These are the people who, who care. Incredibly deeply, uh, the suicide rates are higher there as well. So this foundation has free resources for professionals in the industry who are struggling with compassion fatigue and all of these things. So I'm just going to plug it. It's called the Phoenix [01:00:00] Advocacy Center.

People want to Google it, you'll, you'll find it. Has nothing to do with you, but it came up and, and I think it's a wonderful initiative. And since we're talking compassion fatigue, um, I want to put that out there. We've gone all over the place, but that's what you get with unscripted stuff. And that's what you get with me asking questions.

Is there something I always ask people like, what's your soapbox? Is there something that you want to get out there? Because we have, I'm sure we've not, like we've only touched the tip. things, but tell me what's on your mind. What is something that you would love to share still, or, um, ask me, who knows? 

[01:00:40] Leah Lykos: Yes.

Well, I definitely want to do this again, so I can pick your brain because I do need some mindset coaching and, uh, I do think it's really important. I am, I'm going to look up that. organization that you just plugged because, uh, we all, we all need to take [01:01:00] better care of our own selves, our own nervous systems.

I think that's where it starts. Like for me, it's, it's all about safety, connection, trust. So my thing is like, I'm not really training the dog. I'm helping you with your relationship with the dog and also helping the dog to restore their nervous system health. So that's why it's hard for me to call myself a dog trainer.

I'm not focused on commands and the dog being obedient because I feel like the dog naturally falls into sync with you. when the connection is there and when there's a sense of safety and when we're co regulating instead of co dysregulating. And so I guess that's kind of my little spiel is that we need to take care of ourselves and take care of our dogs in a way that addresses just [01:02:00] like really basic biological needs rather than looking at the dog as a a being that's out of line or misbehaving, like there's always an underlying reason for that.

And it's usually just their emotional capacity to deal, deal with stress. And so if we increase the dog's emotional capacity, Then the training in quotes becomes super easy. Cause if your dog's happy, healthy, emotionally balanced, like of course they want to please you or learn from you or partner with you.

So I guess that's my, my sort of thing is like, let's work from the bottom up. 

[01:02:50] Kajsa: Yeah, it's almost like a Maslow's Pyramid, safety and all of that, that's the prerequisite for everything. I do think also, not that it's [01:03:00] usually helpful to think in terms of what would I do differently if I had to do it over again, because the thing is done, still if I, if I had to do it now, I would be.

To beep with the sit, down, stand, whatever cues, my focus would be entirely, like you said, on the bond with my dog and the rest follows. And I was joking that, because Rusty did bark quite a bit at the beginning of our recording, we had to pause a couple of times. You probably won't hear it because we'll be cutting it out.

But I did say, you know, like I've walked the dog, I fed the dog, I trained the dog. And, and training to me is not training him to, I don't know, to do stuff. I mean, I am training him to do stuff, but it's my, uh, my time with him. It's where we work together, where we do stuff that he likes. And even there, I had to learn, like you said, where it's, it's about the bond and, and [01:04:00] really looking at your dog.

I had to learn to look at him better and figure out, okay, this is something that you're not interested in. This isn't, this isn't making you happy. And as a result, it's also not making me happy and sort of figuring out like, what are the things that, that we really love doing together? And it's then not training for training sense.

It's, it's training for, let's do fun, fun stuff together time. Sorry, that was, again, again, a long way around, but that's, What's going on, but the bond for sure, the safety, the needs, the rest is secondary. A hundred percent. And probably we should also recognize that the same is true for us as well. We need all of those things as well.

We also need the safety. We need the connection. You already mentioned the name of your, well, we're like, [01:05:00] what are, what are we calling, call it, it's not Doctraining, the name of your company. Doctraining. 

[01:05:06] Leah Lykos: Well, my, my company name is Canine Movement Lab and I guess I'm leaning towards Calling what I do somatic therapy for dogs so that people don't come to me just for obedience training.

[01:05:22] Kajsa: If they want this type of non obedience training, but somatic work where, and that's maybe something that we can talk about another time as well. Massage. I love that you're doing that with the dog. I tried to do it with Rusty, but I still, I need more practice and I need more guidance. So if after the podcast or another time, I definitely want to talk to you about that.

But where can people find you? So probably the website is the name, but Instagram, Facebook, uh, other places where people can find you, plug the heck out of it. 

[01:05:55] Leah Lykos: Sure. Yeah. So it is caninemovementlab. [01:06:00] com and on Instagram, I'm caninemovementlab. And on Facebook, I have just my personal page, Leah Lykos, but it's like a professional personal page.

So you can follow my content there. And I, I mainly just post about dogs. So I, I really use that as a professional account. If, if anyone's on Facebook, you can just find me at Leah Lykos, but yeah, everything else is Canine Movement Lab. I have a YouTube channel, so I have a whole library of videos that will show almost all of these exercises in pretty, Good detail.

So if anyone's interested in that, you can check out the YouTube channel. And that's canine movement 

[01:06:51] Kajsa: lab as well. Or what do people, okay, perfect. Yeah, I think that's it. Well, I can't let you go yet. Um, even [01:07:00] after all of this, like people might just now go off and Google you and just not listen to the rest of this anymore.

But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to comment on the three words that are always the same that I ask everyone at the end of the episode, which are expectation, frustration, and celebration. When you hear these three words. What comes up for you in relationship life and life with our dogs. You can take it.

Anyway, any direction that you want. No guidance whatsoever, but what comes up? What is your brain telling you? 

[01:07:38] Leah Lykos: Okay, so I guess I will talk about my newest and youngest dog. She's not really that new to me now. I've had her for two years, but Mia, I guess my, which I don't call her that, her name, I call her Mimi, but that's the name she came with was Mia.

And I guess my expectation was Even though I knew I was like her [01:08:00] third or fourth owner, even at, you know, the age of one, one and a half years old. I guess the expectation was that she was going to be an easy dog for me. And then the frustration, is that the next one? 

[01:08:19] Kajsa: Yeah. 

[01:08:20] Leah Lykos: Was that, oh, she turned out to be one of my hardest dogs.

And then the celebration is that what it has brought to my life is even further introspection and acceptance of myself, self acceptance. And then, you know, celebrating the bond that I do have with her now, which is, you know, Really special, you know, and we're still on that journey and I'm really looking forward to how it's going to turn out because I've always found in the past that the most difficult relationships or the most difficult sort [01:09:00] of behavioral cases of dogs that I take on are always It's the most special relationships that I end up having, even though they do tend to cause me a lot of stress at the get go.

But that's why we create such a deep relationship is the, the work and the love and energy that I pour into, into it. So Thank you Yeah, I think that's kind of a good way to sum it 

[01:09:30] Kajsa: up. Cool. And I love that it's the fourth word. It's not in the three words, but what you're basically saying is that you're looking towards the future with curiosity, which is an emotion that I love a lot.

It's like, well, I wonder, I wonder where this is going to go. I wonder where this journey is going to take me. And I think that's always such a nice judgment free way of looking at things [01:10:00] that just keeps you very open to all the possibilities. So I, I love that you just kind of mentioned that it's sort of like, where is this going to take me?

That then leaves me just to say, Liat, I love this conversation. I think people are going to get a lot out of it. I already learned stuff. So I'm, I'm already golden. Thank you so much for, for making this happen for your time. Cause it is the most valuable commodity that we have and coming on the podcast.

Thank you very much. 

[01:10:33] Leah Lykos: Oh, thank you so much, I really had fun, I appreciate you so much, and I can't wait to do it again. Yeah, I'm, 

[01:10:41] Kajsa: uh, I'm curious to what you're going to ask me when I get on your podcast. Yes. Gosh, I wonder, now I wonder if I should have asked different questions, because I'm definitely going to get this back.

We'll have fun. Yeah, for sure. Thank you again. All right, you take [01:11:00] care.