Historical Divorce Traditions - Anti-Valentines Theme

Happy Anti-Valentine's Month! For February, we're celebrating the opposite of love. To kick it off, Quizmaster Andi lovingly scrounged through history for four traditions of divorce. But one of them is made up! How deep is your love knowledge? See if you can find the fake tradition along with hosts Sups and Tanner! 

Transcript

Sups 0:01

Which one would you choose?

Tanner 0:02

Definitely divorce. Yeah, I want to keep my eyes.

Andi 0:05

Your eyes Wow, Subs, you have like the weirdest takes today. He's, he's talking, he's saying good things about the church.

Sups 0:14

I think true happiness is overrated.

Tanner 0:16

what he meant our

Sups 0:19

the theme. think this is only nonviolent thing that I've ever heard to come out of ancient Rome.

Andi 0:28

Hello and welcome to this episode of I Should Have Known, the trivia game show that can't be trusted. Each week, one of our Quizmasters will present you with four facts about a topic, but one of those facts is a lie. Welcome to our annual Anti Valentine's Day theme Where we celebrate all things the opposite of love.. So I'm kicking it off with a real cheery theme I'm your quiz master, Andy, and I'm going to present to you with a find the fake episode on historical divorce traditions. So I'll present you with four traditions from history around the world, but one of them I invented. So Supes and Tanner in figuring out which one it is. Wow, Yeah, so everything here is historical because, I mean, I don't want to talk about divorce nowadays. It's too sad.

Tanner 1:15

But it's less sad if you're separated by time.

Andi 1:17

by time. Yeah. far as I know, none of these are currently traditions. So yeah. So marriage, at least coupling, is a pretty nearly universal concept around the world. And then in that way, because of that. Separation or divorce is basically nearly universal, though there are very, very different views of it. So, in general, especially in the West, it's very stigmatized. But that hasn't been true throughout history and it isn't true in every culture. But it kind of brings us to a PQQ. We're going to start in modern times. So, currently. As of today, 2024. There are only two countries in the world that have laws explicitly forbidding divorce. Name them. One is easy, one is hard.

Sups 2:04

So you cannot get a divorce in this

Andi 2:06

this country. In many places, you de facto can't get a divorce because it's so stigmatized. Judges almost never grant them, but there's no law forbidding it. Only two countries explicitly forbid divorce.

Tanner 2:18

I'm gonna say it's connected with, like, the Catholic Church, so Vatican?

Andi 2:22

Yes, so the Vatican is one of them. That's the easy one.

Sups 2:26

I mean, who will divorce? Who's there to be divorced?

Tanner 2:29

married anyway. I don't

Andi 2:30

Yeah,

Tanner 2:31

One? what's the other

Sups 2:32

the other one? I think the other one is an off the beat country.

Andi 2:36

mean, sure, I don't know exactly what you mean by that. It is a very Catholic country and has a long colonial history, which I think contributes to why they don't allow divorce.

Sups 2:47

Catholic and colonialism.

Tanner 2:49

The Philippines?

Andi 2:51

Philippines, yes. The Philippines and the Vatican are the only two countries as of today that explicitly forbid divorce.

Sups 2:58

Wow.

Tanner 2:58

Okay.

Andi 2:59

Yeah.

Tanner 3:00

So if you want to split up, you got to Get out of there.

Andi 3:02

Yeah, yeah. So we're going to talk about four traditions. They're all quite unusual, so I hope

Sups 3:08

Hmm. Awesome. Okay. I can't say I know a lot about divorce traditions as, again, one of those things you don't really think

Tanner 3:17

Yeah. think of it as a very modern thing, to be

Sups 3:21

Yeah. I mean, especially for me, I need to get married first to even think about

Tanner 3:24

Yeah.

Sups 3:25

Okay.

Tanner 3:25

Let's dive in.

Andi 3:26

ready for these? So tradition number one, in medieval Europe, adulterous men faced a tough choice. Divorce or blinding?

Tanner 3:36

Whoa,

Sups 3:37

What happens to the women?

Andi 3:38

In this particular situation, nothing.

Tanner 3:41

Oh.

Andi 3:42

don't get it twisted, okay? Like, divorce, historically has definitely benefited men. And has been far easier to attain by men. But this is a kind of, a unique situation.

Tanner 3:53

If it's true, I wonder if it's connected to like, In my mind, the punishment has to fit the crime. Right. So a thief, you can chop

Sups 4:00

off his

Tanner 4:00

their hands. An adulterer, Was he lusting after someone with his eyes? So you take out his eyes, you blind him.

Sups 4:10

If this were true, would be

Tanner 4:12

castration. Yeah, I thought you were going to say that, yeah. I think Go right to the chase. But I

Sups 4:17

But I think blinding was a form of punishment in medieval times, right? But I right off the bat, I'm a little bit.

Tanner 4:24

bit

Sups 4:24

Icky about this fact. I don't know. Can you tell us a little bit

Andi 4:28

little

Tanner 4:29

Yeah, why would they do that?

Andi 4:30

Yeah, so, in medieval Europe Divorce was extremely rare However, a woman could attain a divorce from her husband if she could prove his adultery. Which, of course, was very difficult. Generally, it had to happen in their house for it to count. So she had to catch him with another woman in their house. In

Tanner 4:52

like In their marriage

Andi 4:53

Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, like, then the church was like, Okay, yeah, that's too far. You have a problem. So, in this situation, this husband was given a choice. If he was found guilty of adultering, And besmearing sanctity of their family home, he had a choice. He could either get a divorce, because truly only the men could get the divorce. However, he would have to pay alimony, and he would not be allowed to remarry.

Tanner 5:19

Ooh. Okay. Or

Andi 5:21

Or! He could be blinded, and technically still be married to his wife and just like chilling, I guess, but with no eyes,

Sups 5:30

Well, first of all, medieval European men, stupid. Why would you, first of all, if you're doing this kind of, you're indulging in this kind of extra. Activities. Why would you do it in your house?

Tanner 5:45

Yeah, that's the One place you can get caught.

Sups 5:48

I mean, I mean, I understand there were no Airbnbs or like, I don't know, motels.

Tanner 5:52

right. Where else are you gonna

Andi 5:54

motels, or

Sups 5:56

But I'm sure there was a lot of nature. There's a lot of, I don't know. Some house, like I'll go to a friend's house. Or, I don't know. How do you feel about this? I

Tanner 6:03

I am surprised that they got a choice. You know, Alright, It's up to you. Do you want to stay married? It's basically do you value your eyes or. money and, you know, like, It's weird to think about what your priorities are. there. Why would you choose blindness and stay married to the person you're cheating on?

Sups 6:21

Yeah. Which one would you choose?

Tanner 6:24

Definitely divorce. Yeah. I want to keep my eyes.

Andi 6:26

Your eyes are Yeah. I also think the idea is like, because you can't remarry, like, technically the only way you can have sex is if you're married. So

Tanner 6:35

So like, in the eyes church? Otherwise you're committing crimes anyway? Okay. back to my place. that's because you made it up. that's

Andi 6:48

because

Sups 6:50

that. Yeah, that's because you made it up of, I mean,

Tanner 6:52

not diss

Sups 6:55

open to interpretation.

Tanner 6:56

This is pretty hard to believe.

Sups 6:58

Yes. Blinding.

Tanner 6:59

Blinding seems a little over the top.

Sups 7:02

Yeah. I totally believe, if it's at castration, I'd totally believe

Andi 7:06

Dude, I feel like castration is way

Sups 7:08

Yeah, but you cheated. That's what you deserve. You gotta stay married or get divorced and now you can't do nothing. Like You won't have like a, lineage. Right. Yeah.

Andi 7:19

I don't know

Tanner 7:20

man.

Andi 7:22

For some reason Supes thinks being blinded is worse than being castrated. I I didn't expect that. I didn't see that coming.

Sups 7:28

I didn't see that coming. You know, when

Andi 7:32

your other

Tanner 7:33

you're castrated, what gets better?

Sups 7:35

right? So you can't It's better. Nothing. That's

Andi 7:39

In Supes is Perfect Society.

Tanner 7:41

society. Yes, Amazing.

Andi 7:43

Wow.

Sups 7:44

Okay.

Tanner 7:44

Hmm. Alright, I guess we have to just believe that. one for now. Let's see what else you got.

Andi 7:50

All right. Tradition number two. In, Transylvania, couple seeking divorce first had to spend time in prison

Tanner 7:59

isn't that the same as being married? for them?

Sups 8:01

wow, oh

Tanner 8:02

wow.

Sups 8:04

I mean,

Tanner 8:04

you guys

Sups 8:05

can say it. I have no experience. I

Andi 8:07

So, in Transylvania, and this little town, if you wanted a divorce, you went to the bishop, and the bishop imprisoned you in a special prison specifically for this purpose inside their fortified church you were just, you were in prison there for some time. Some people say six weeks, but like. you're in there together for some time, and you only had one of everything

Tanner 8:28

So you had

Andi 8:29

so you had to share.

Tanner 8:30

Extreme couples counseling.

Andi 8:32

Yeah, yeah funny thing is though that in the 300 year history of this marital prison All right, they call it a matrimonial prison only one couple actually did get

Tanner 8:45

wow, it worked.

Andi 8:46

it works apparently

Sups 8:47

think this is, this is of tradition that we need to bring back to modern day society. think in every country, I think you get married, I think spending like one month together in a confined space.

Tanner 9:00

I do kind of agree with that. idea. Like before you get married, I think you should live

Andi 9:05

together. you have to pandemic

Tanner 9:06

You have

Sups 9:07

exactly. I think, I think if we look at like I mean, at least in my immediate circle, I know people who were in like, eight year relationship I broke up right after pandemic because they couldn't stand each

Andi 9:16

other,

Sups 9:17

you know,

Tanner 9:18

a little too much quality time.

Sups 9:19

I know, right? So I don't mind this. This, I think this is one of the things from the church I can approve of.

Andi 9:26

I mean Wow, Subs, you have like the weirdest takes today. He's, he's talking, he's saying good things about the church.

Tanner 9:32

are

Sups 9:32

mean, look at the success rate, which other counseling methods have that kind of success

Tanner 9:37

rate? I mean, yeah, did the other ones stay happily married for the rest of their lives, or did they just like, die in

Andi 9:43

Yeah, so What a lot of experts say is that this wasn't so much about like that. They're happier together It is more of an economic decision because If you're imprisoned for six weeks not farming You might end up starving over the winter because you're not making enough food, so people just kind of oh, yeah, okay We're happy now after maybe a couple days, and they're like can go back and you know live their

Tanner 10:08

After maybe a couple days, eat a lot. And enjoy life. Yeah, I know. I

Sups 10:15

I think true happiness is overrated.

Tanner 10:18

what he meant our

Sups 10:21

the theme. That's our month.

Andi 10:22

the theme, this is soups this month,

Tanner 10:24

Supes

Andi 10:25

it's just a hater,

Sups 10:26

We love Vader. Yes, yes, You know, for this to be fake, I think Andy could get creative and taking inspiration from that TV show, Big Brother. Do

Tanner 10:36

yeah. They're locked up

Sups 10:37

lock up the celebrities and there's like cameras watching them. It's like a very big, in India, it's like very big in India we call it Big Boss. The big boss always gives tasks and like creates controversies. Right. So I could think she might've taken some loose inspiration, you know, sprinkled some church.

Tanner 10:55

I wonder if these matrimonial cells had, like, viewing windows, so the bishop could watch like, Big Brother style. Like, see what's

Andi 11:02

going on Eww! If a

Tanner 11:04

that is a weird custom.

Sups 11:06

Not as weird as number one though, come on, let's be real

Tanner 11:10

Mm. Yeah I'm kind of inclined to believe this one. It's pretty weird and it's very specific. Mm-Hmm? This one town in Transylvania, hmm.

Sups 11:18

What else, do you have for us?

Andi 11:20

I have more. Okay. Okay. Tradition number three. In the 16th century Ottoman Empire, a husband's failure to provide his wife with coffee could be grounds for divorce. You're love

Tanner 11:34

Oh my goodness. You're walking I love this one.

Sups 11:38

This, I think I I have heard this somewhere. Really?

Tanner 11:40

Really? Yeah. No coffee? All right. We're done.

Sups 11:42

but, not exactly coffee, but in a lot of these empires, like the main thing that defined their empire, whether it's like a specific grain or something, like, because it was also like a status symbol,

Tanner 11:54

right, Right. Like te in the UK or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Sups 11:57

It's Not outlandish to think this.

Andi 12:00

So, this is an oft quoted fact on the internet. You can see it a lot, but it's extremely difficult to source. So I didn't find any sources that said this was like a specific rule or like this definitely happened somewhere, but when we combine two things, so kind of like what Supes said. So the Ottoman Empire at this time was obsessed with. Coffee, especially coffee houses where men would meet and discuss topics and, you know, things, which then led the governor of Mecca to try to ban coffee throughout the Muslim world did not work very well So the idea that it would be considered a household staple we can be pretty confident in that. And then under Sharia law, so like the traditional, Quranic law. There were multiple ways to get. Divorces or separations or annulments one that did count that the judges did rule in favor that the man did not provide his wife with the necessary means of maintaining a proper household, she could get a divorce from him. Right. So, if we combine these two things, we can be pretty confident that this at least, would have been

Tanner 13:14

is, at least would have been possible.

Sups 13:17

what constitutes

Tanner 13:18

I mean, I get the foundation of it, right? You have to provide for them, If you can't, then she gets to get out of it. The coffee, part is the iffy thing.

Sups 13:27

Could it be tea? Mm

Tanner 13:30

hmm. Mm hmm. Maybe. Yeah.

Sups 13:32

I mean, if it's a lie, right? How is it like, so maybe it's not coffee, it's tea or maybe some other element, but the concept I think isn't a lie.

Tanner 13:41

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you there. I think it's the specific thing that she's saying.

Sups 13:47

What else? What else is a Turkish delight? Baklava?

Tanner 13:52

Yeah, this was pretty believable, I think.

Sups 13:54

I have the highest confidence in this.

Andi 13:58

I like this one too. I think this should be a thing in our

Sups 14:01

Oh no.

Andi 14:02

Do you like this one?

Tanner 14:03

really like this one

Andi 14:05

you think it's fair?

Tanner 14:06

I, absolutely think it's fair? If you're like, I need coffee, It's like, No, I'm not going to get you coffee. I don't have any coffee. And you're like. Well why am I with you then? You know,

Sups 14:15

If there was like Tinder during Ottoman Empire, I could imagine all girls bios would be like looking for some good coffee. Give me

Tanner 14:22

exactly.

Sups 14:22

Okay.

Tanner 14:23

do our last

Andi 14:25

Alright, let's do our last one. Tradition number four. In ancient Rome, a marriage could be dissolved by the presentation of a cake.

Tanner 14:34

Why? A cake?

Andi 14:37

this was a funny one because this one I invented and then I Googled it and then literally it was a thing. this

Sups 14:43

is a divorce cake. Be careful, don't get caught in your own web of lies. It

Andi 14:47

So, It comes from the wedding tradition. So we're talking about, the patrician wedding tradition in ancient Rome.

Tanner 14:55

The rich people, not the plebs.

Andi 14:57

they're the rich people. They had a specific kind of wedding. And you could only have certain jobs if your parents had been married this way. So like, this was a very privileged status kind of wedding.

Tanner 15:09

Yeah.

Andi 15:09

Called confariation. at the wedding, they had a kind of cake that they would present to the, pontifex maximus and the high priest of Jupiter presided over these weddings. They're very important

Tanner 15:24

their version of the Pope.

Andi 15:26

sure and It was made of farro, why it's Conferiation because that's the name of this grain. It's a kind of wheat They made this cake and presented it to them and then you were married So if you wanted to dissolve your marriage, which was extremely rare, they had Diffariation. Where you broke the cake over their heads. You made a cake and then you broke it and then that symbolized the end of your marriage. So they, they used cake.

Sups 15:57

I think this is the only nonviolent thing that I've ever heard to come out of ancient Rome.

Tanner 16:03

it's very peaceful.

Sups 16:05

dies. There's no poison. You just take a cake and just smash it. I'm in. Sign me up.

Tanner 16:11

It's very celebratory. It's like, you still get to eat the cake.

Sups 16:14

know. Right.

Andi 16:15

I don't know if you actually get to eat the cake. What? I

Tanner 16:17

it's just broken in

Andi 16:18

so it's not like a soft cake. Right. From what I understand, it's like a.

Tanner 16:22

More like a cookie. Yeah.

Andi 16:23

And that you

Sups 16:24

Okay. But heads are not breaking. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, It has potential to be fake, but also I can see why this could be true.

Tanner 16:33

Yeah, I mean, it's It seems like a very simple process, like, oh, we use a cake to symbolize you joining together, Sure. And then what's the opposite of that?

Sups 16:42

We just break the cake. Yeah.

Tanner 16:45

That seems very straightforward. Maybe it's too

Sups 16:47

Yes. But also given the fact that Andy said that she thought this was the fake one and she started her research based off of

Tanner 16:54

Right. It seems like there's some mind games. there. Why would she say

Sups 16:58

Yeah. Because

Tanner 16:59

the scent

Sups 17:00

Hmm.

Tanner 17:01

of the cake. It's an Interesting. I know some things about ancient Rome, but I've never heard of this.

Sups 17:07

What's another thing you know about

Tanner 17:09

Rome? They used wedding rings. Okay. They exchanged gold bands. Gold bands, or At least the nicest medal they could find. Yeah,

Sups 17:16

Yep. Okay.

Andi 17:18

this was like, very early. This is way back. This is in like, before like the 2nd century BC.

Tanner 17:24

Right. Long before Caesar. Long before Augustus. Okay, Yeah.

Sups 17:28

that. Yeah, that's okay. If it's fake. Where could it be? Made it up. Made the whole thing made, made the

Tanner 17:34

I think, If it's fake, there's no marriage cake, there's no divorce cake. the whole process is made

Sups 17:39

Yeah.. But is it fake? Because it's too easy. But then we are. Undermining Andy's creativity. don't think she'd just go, Oh, here's the cake and you just break the cake. Yeah, that's what I came up with. Yeah, she would.

Tanner 17:55

I think before we get ahead of ourselves and debate which one is fake, we should hear all four of them again.

Andi 18:02

Alright. Tradition number one. In medieval Europe, adulterous men faced a tough choice. Divorce or blinding? Tradition number two. In Transylvania, couples seeking divorce first had to spend time in prison together. Tradition number three. In the 16th century Ottoman Empire, a husband's failure to provide his wife with coffee could be grounds for divorce. And tradition number four. In ancient Rome, a marriage could be dissolved by the presentation of a cake. One of those is fake.

Tanner 18:46

I think that The least believable one is the cake one. I think that It is too straightforward. It sounds like something she would make up. And, it's, I don't know, it's not, it's not violent enough for

Sups 18:58

right. right. And that, and that's what really caught me thinking, right? I mean, we know we, Even in the I Should Have Known podcast, we talked a lot about Rome, right? And this one's like so sweet and cute. Like, you know, yeah, I know. You just smash the cake. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm totally with you. But I think for a change, I want to stick with my gut feeling. As a number one, I think the punishment blinding is an

Tanner 19:25

punishment, blinding is an act. Yes.

Sups 19:31

Um, or maybe there is a whole thing made up, but there is some other way of getting a divorce. Like, it's not, something like that.

Tanner 19:39

yeah.

Sups 19:41

Yes.

Andi 19:42

Okie dokie. Supes, you have good instincts because the lie is tradition number one. I entirely invented this. It wasn't a thing. It's inspired by King Lear. But like, loosely. So, people blinding themselves in that. In reality, pretty much the only way for medieval women to get a divorce was if she could prove her husband's impotence.

Tanner 20:05

Impotence, not

Andi 20:06

because it was his husbandly duty to father children upon her. And if he couldn't do that, she could divorce him in order to find someone who could. So there are some very funny court cases from this time period where, you know, women are trying to prove their husband's impotence. so, there are a lot of very funny arguments talking about how like, oh, his testicles are shriveled like beans and like all this thing. So, that was pretty much the only way for a woman to attain a divorce at that time. And yeah, the blinding thing. I just made that up. I thought castration was too on the nose, so I actually thought that would be a bad one. So that's why with

Tanner 20:45

bad one. So

Andi 20:46

Yeah. I did actually Google ancient Rome divorce cake and then this came up and I was like wait what that was me like make inventing things. What is this? So then I had to like include this one because I thought it was so funny.

Tanner 21:02

But

Sups 21:02

is super cool that at least now we know that in ancient Rome, there is nonviolent things can happen.

Andi 21:08

And then for the coffee thing, so you see different variations of people conflating a lot of different Muslim majority areas. You know, sometimes they'll say Arabs, sometimes they say Ottomans, A lot of times you'll see that people will say in modern Saudi Arabia, this is a way for women. to get divorced if they're not provided with coffee. That's BS. It's almost impossible for a

Sups 21:27

for a woman to get a divorce. In Saudi

Andi 21:29

So yeah, so no, that's, that is an internet myth, but there is probably at least a bean of truth in the Ottoman era where there, there were scholars at the time talking about divorce it was actually pretty common in this era. In Mamluk Egypt it was about one in three women were divorced.

Sups 21:47

Okay, hold on. Yeah, that's what, the moment you said that fact, like it's like some corner in the brain reading like an article somewhere

Tanner 21:56

Wow. It's so interesting that it's not just a modern thing. It goes all the way back through the ages. Hmm. Divorce.

Andi 22:03

That's about as old as marriage.

Tanner 22:05

Yeah. Makes sense. I should have known.

Sups 22:08

I should have known.

Andi 22:09

Thanks for listening to this episode of I should have known. We'll be continuing with our anti Valentine's day theme next week. Our quiz master soups does a three Pete of our annual breakup songs episodes. So get your ears ready for that one. And as always.

Sups 22:27

uh, okay.