143. Cultivating a Feedback Culture with Aga Bajer

💭 How do you foster a growth-focused culture through feedback?

Aga Bajer is the CEO and founder of Culture Brained,  a virtual community that helps leaders build cultures that foster belonging, innovation, and high performance. Her interest in organizational culture started as she grew up in a totalitarian regime where despite the government having absolute power over its people, it did not have full control over how people behaved in their respective homes. That was when she first realized that culture is a movement, not a mandate. And it is not a leader’s job to make people happy, but rather to create an environment where they can show up as their best selves while making meaningful connections with colleagues. 

In this episode, Aga shares how leaders should start cultivating a culture where people solicit feedback themselves, particularly on areas they want to grow. This creates a culture in teams where people are focused on growth, and are humble enough to ask others on their views of how they could improve. And before you can give it, acknowledge that feedback is a privilege built on trust and truly caring for someone’s growth and success. 

🎧 Download this episode to discover how you can unlock growth by cultivating a feedback culture in your teams.

🌐 Connect with Aga:
• Website: https://www.agabajer.com/
• Join Culture Leaders Community: https://www.agabajer.com/culturebrained-community/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agabajer/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aga_bajer/

📚 You can purchase Aga's book at Amazon:
• Building and Sustaining a Coaching Culture:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0728GM4MD/

Book Mentioned:
Meditations Book by Marcus Aurelius

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:26

Hey everyone and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Aga Bajer. Aga is the CEO and Founder of an organization called CultureBrained. That's an interesting term already, and she's also a podcast host of a podcast called The Culture Lab and an Author, she is deeply passionate about the topic of feedback. And feedback is something that we have to be honest as leaders, some of us struggle with this including me, so I'm going to learn a lot from today's discussion. So today is going to be about unlocking growth through the art of giving and receiving feedback. So without any further ado, Aga, I'd love it. If you'd please give us a little flavor of your background, and what inspired you to be particularly interested in culture and in feedback.

Aga Bajer: 1:16

First of all, thank you for having me on your show. It's an honor and a joy to be here with you today, really looking forward to our conversation, and to answer your question about what made me particularly interested in that and what my background is. Well, Mick, one of the things that made me super interested in culture was the fact that I grew up behind the iron curtain in the communist Poland. And for the younger listeners, the younger audience of yours, I'll explain what that meant. What that meant it was that we were actually living in a totalitarian regime where you didn't have the freedom to express your opinions, do certain things. And literally things like reading a wrong book could send you to jail. So basically, the regime had absolute power over the Polish population. And yet, what was really interesting is that people would think, feel and behave completely independently of what the regime asks from them in their own homes. And so we read the Western literature, we managed to watch western films, people had a very independent way of thinking. And growing up in this environment, one thing that I understood really early on, was the fact that you can have absolute power, and yet zero control over how people behave, and over culture. And so you know, at some point join into the workplace that was a useful piece of information and a useful understanding. Because clearly, as a leader, you do have influence and probably disproportionately large influence over your organization. And yet, culture is not a mandate, culture is a movement. So unless you can inspire that movement, and you can inspire people to embrace certain ways of being and certain ways of working and behaving, it's simply not going to work. So I have this intuitive understanding around something that I think not a lot of leaders know, on day one of their careers. So I'm really grateful for that. And the second thing that I think made me passionate about this topic was the fact that when I was quite young, 20, something a friend of mine approached me and invited me to build a start up with him. It was almost 30 years ago, now I'm making myself. And initially I said, No, finally I gave in because I thought, hey, what could be a better way to make people happy than ice cream, because the startup that he was building was no stream factory. And very soon, I realized that there are many other ways of making people happy. And probably the most important one is to build a working environment where people can do their best work. And so it's not really about making people happy. That was my lesson. It's not my job as a founder, as a leader. My job is create an environment where everyone can be their best selves when it comes to their craft their work, and also where they can make meaningful connections with their colleagues. Because we all know that human connections and collaboration usually result in innovation and incredible performance. And I learned that lesson the hard way in our startup, because we had zero idea about management. And so we really had to learn everything through the mistakes that we've made. And clearly, you know, one of those mistakes was not giving people the kind of feedback that would be beneficial to them. And the point of frustration for both of us for a really long time was how come you know, we told them so many times and they are still doing it or not doing it like for example wearing protective gear. You know, in factories, as a lot of our listeners will know, safety and health are the most important thing. People literally can lose a limb or even their life at work. And so it's kind of mind boggling. Why wouldn't people wear their nets they know that their hair can get tangled in the machinery and can have serious consequences. And that really sent me down a rabbit hole. I started researching this topic to be able to answer all these questions. As a founder as a co founder, as someone who's trying to create a successful business. And the rest is history really became my obsession. I joined leading consultancies that really paved the way when it comes to research around culture, and leadership. And now I have my own firm consultancy. And also we build the community for cultural leaders who want to create better workplaces.

Mick Spiers: 6:06

Brilliant, Aga, and thank you for sharing that with us. There are multiple things that were popping into my head as you're talking. The first one back to the experience in Poland, is that human needs are more universal than we think. There's a lot of people who say, Oh, yeah, but you don't understand my culture is different as in my national culture, or something like that, but the human needs the human needs for things like love and belonging, to feel that we matter to have freedom, freedom of choice, and freedom from oppression are universal and far more universal than what we think, then to build on with that culture. And I'm going to bastardize a common saying, which is your brand is not what you say it is, it's what they say it is in this case, your culture is not what you say it is. It's what they say it is. And then I'm hearing the very embodiment of leadership, which is the role of leadership is to inspire people into meaningful action because they wanted to do it not because they were told to do it. So to wrap all of that up, what I'm hearing from you is you can't really dictate your culture, you need to foster a culture where people can do their very best work. So and I'm sure that there's CEOs that are listening to this right now and getting very frustrated, but I want my culture to be this. So how do we balance this between fostering the culture that we want to see, versus becoming it like a dictatorship where we're trying to impose a culture and that will never work?

Aga Bajer: 7:30

A quick answer to this question is you have to co-create it with your team. This is not a job for one person. This is not a job for the senior leadership team. Culture crafting, as I often refer to it is everyone's job. And the problem in a lot of organizations is exactly what you have described. So leaders have a vision, they have a vision for the business. And they also have a vision for their culture. And they go away on a retreat, they discuss what that culture would look like, perhaps they define some core values, and then they come back and they roll it out and announce it to the entire organization. And the expectation is that people will immediately embrace it. And it's almost like flipping a switch. Once they know what's important, and what sort of behaviors are expected, they will start behaving this way. Well, we both know that this is not how it goes. And my experience over the past 20-something years, when I've really looked at what makes shaping culture or crafting culture successful is when you invite your people into this conversation as early on as you can. And so for example, when we work with companies helping them either refresh their values, if they have core values, or start from scratch, we work with storytelling. And we say, okay, let's hear some stories about who you are at your best today. Who were you at your best in the past? If there is the founder still in the organization? It's really interesting to know, you know, why did they create this company? Who was the person they created it for? What were the early challenges? And how did they overcome because of course, the early days of any company are a great source of cultural DNA, and we want to be able to decode that. But culture doesn't stop there. And it's not the only source of information about your culture. Your culture is also who your people are at their best today. So I love hearing stories about, you know, the so-called war stories, stories about how people have overcome challenges, and what helped them to be successful, but also stories of transformation. And it can be internal transformation. You know, we were this and then we transformed and we became something else, or stories of transformation of your clients like this. This is what our clients life looked like, before they started working with us. And this is what it looked like afterward. These are really powerful stories. And again, you can decode them for your culture. But there is one story that is also incredibly important to tell. And this is a story that you really co-create with your people and this story is about us at our best in the future. For organizations out there. What their true trying to do is they're trying to accomplish certain goals and mission, etc, etc. And you need to ask yourself, What would our culture look like if it was a unique enabler of this vision? And what are we already doing that we need to nourish and reinforce? Because it's helping us to bring this vision to life. But also, what are the things that we need to leave behind, because, frankly, maybe this is what brought us here, but it's not something that is going to get us there. And finally, you know, it's this piece around growth and development, there will be certain things, certain ways of working, that you will need to develop in order to get from here to that. So having this conversation about who do we need to become, in order to serve our mission, and bring our vision to life? Is the conversation that you absolutely have to have with your people? And based on that you can create an agreement around, right. So what are the sorts of behaviors, practices, ways of collaborating approaches that we want to embrace going forward? What are the priorities? What are the things that we really want to amplify here? And you know, from day one, you have ownership, because people were a part of the process, they co-created it with you. And there is a deep, deep, deep understanding, but also experience of creating it. So that would be my answer to you know, why is it so frustrating? Sometimes when we have this vision, and it's not coming to life, often you start from the very beginning is wrong. And then of course, it's very difficult to create that movement. I have one more thing to say about that. And I'll shut out. The second important thing, if you don't want to have a mandate, button movement is you know, people generally embrace something that they have co-created, but also something that gives them a call to action. So people need to know, okay, if we want to cultivate this culture, what is my contribution in this? And this contribution needs to be pretty straightforward, so that I know as Agha, what am I supposed to be doing now differently, for example. So speaking of feedback, you know, if we know that we want to cultivate a feedback culture, it would be helpful for me to know Hey, Aga, I'd like you to sit down with Mick once a week and have a chat about what Mick can do better on his show. And what you believe, is working amazingly well already, and vice versa. So you have that exchange. And now I have clarity around how I can contribute to cultivating the culture that we want to create. And once people have that call to action, and they have been part of the conversation, what's important is simply having a few ambassadors, people who will really embrace these behaviors. So maybe make is this person who really gets the importance of feedback, right. And he role models that everywhere, you are going to be a critical person for me, if I'm a CEO, and I will want to make sure that a lot of people come in touch with you. Because actually, a movement is being built through a group of peers. A movement is not built by leaders who sit somewhere, you know, in a corner office form you never see during your work, you start imitating behaviors of your colleagues, the ones that you work with every day. So informal influences are super important. If you want to create a culture that is a movement, not a mandate.

Mick Spiers: 14:10

is a movement, not a mandate. It's really beautiful, Aga and what I'm hearing there is almost like a four-pronged approach here. The first one is the shift, the shift away from the values and beliefs are just put on the office wall clerk at Park, and they were defined by the CEO and the leadership team. And that's it, we're shifting that into the second part, which is a dialogue. And it's a dialogue that we're co-creating, and we're having a conversation about. And we're not just having a words list, it's actually a dialogue about what it means. The third one is the storytelling, the storytelling to bring it to life, so and everyone can resonate with stories, because then they can visualize what do these behaviors actually look like, as opposed to just a series of names or labels that are on the website or on the office wall plaque, as I mentioned, and in doing so, we're then unpacking what positive impact comes from when we live those behaviors. So when we live those behaviors, we're able to create a different world. And then the fourth one was really interesting. It's actionable. It's actionable. It's not just okay, one of our values is ethics. What's the action? What does it look like? What positive impact comes?

Aga Bajer: 15:20

100% and I couldn't have phrased it better myself. And what's really important is and something that we also forget is that in order, for example, for a value like ethics to be embraced by everyone in the organization, it has to be actionable. It has to be relatable, it has to be relevant, right? And it is going to be different for an accounting department, and is going to be different for your marketing department. And it's totally okay. I think what leaders sometimes get wrong out of fear is that they want this consistency, right, they want everyone to behave in exactly the same way. But life and culture don't work this way. You can embrace these broad principles, but the way they manifest themselves, they are different, and it's totally okay. Because people's context is different, the nature of the work is different. And what it means to them is different as well. And so making it actionable, as you say, relatable and relevant is incredibly important, acknowledging that you are going to have micro-cultures in your organization. And it's not a liability is an asset. You know, it's not a bug. It's a feature micro cultures are a features of culture, it's not something that we should be fighting against. The idea is, though, that all these micro-cultures are going to sit under the broader umbrella of your wider culture. And these are those non-negotiable principles that you have laid out with your team.

Mick Spiers: 16:56

Yeah, love this, Imicro-cultures love this balance of micro cultures and cultures. And then what becomes non-negotiable as you said, so that's probably the good springborg nas. So we've decided what our values and beliefs are together, we've co-created them, we know what they look like, we know what the actions are, what role does feedback now play in reinforcing that culture?

Aga Bajer: 17:17

So feedback, obviously, is very important in reinforcing a culture, in driving performance in helping people grow. It's something that I think we wildly acknowledge, as something crucial for a successful organization. And clearly, it plays an important role in cultivating a culture as well. However, as you know, I have some beef with feedback, especially the mainstream approach to feedback, because we've been told that feedback is the breakfast of champions, or feedback is a gift. And when someone gives you feedback, you should say thank you, embrace it, and be grateful. Now, the thing is, in my old apartment, I don't have this closet anymore. In my old apartment, in Milan, I had almost an entire closet of gifts that I received from people that I never needed, I never wanted, and I had no useful. And they were basically waiting to be re gifted there. And you know, when you think about this very often is exactly the same with feedback that we get. So people give us feedback, because they think it will be useful to us, they give us feedback in a way that they believe is going to be effective. But there is a disconnect, there is a disconnect between what we need and what we want in the moment and what is actually being gifted to us. So personally, I don't believe that every kind of feedback is going to be useful, whether it's shaping culture, or whether it's helping people grow. What we need to make sure is that feedback is given in a way that is beneficial. And when I started researching, what are the principles that we should be sticking to to make sure that we don't lose our way? Right? I think the first thing that I started challenging is the unsolicited feedback. So people are told you need to give feedback to your team members. And so whether they wanted the whether they asked for it, we offer it often without asking, you know, is it a good time to have this chat? Or would you like to hear my view on that? And I wonder, you know, what would happen if we could flip it. And instead of that, start cultivating a culture where people start asking for feedback, and soliciting feedback themselves. And that has a number of benefits. Number one, when you ask for feedback, you ask, probably for information that you can there's going to be useful for you. It's somewhat aligned with what you are working on, and where your focus is, and the kind of information that you can absorb now because you are looking for it. So probably it's going to be useful for you. Second thing when you ask for feedback, usually ask people that you trust you have some sort of relationship with and whose opinion you value. So it's important because obviously if it's coming from someone that you trust, who's credible in your eyes, it's going to lend differently, right. And I think thirdly, when you solicit feedback, what you are doing is you are embracing thing, a behavior that you want to see more of in your organization, which is people being growth focused humble enough to ask others for their views on how they can improve. So I'd very much like to see teams who agree this is the culture that we want. I'd very much like them to start, instead of giving us unsolicited feedback to people. For everyone, including leaders. That's incredibly important. And probably actually, leaders should go first. I'd love to see people say, Hey, mate, can you please tell me, you know, on this show, what are the things that I could improve? And I'm particularly interested in how I was using body language, because people told me in the past that I'm quite stiff, I sit and I don't move, and it's just a talking head. Can you tell me a little bit about how I engage you with my body language? That's powerful? Because I'll get exactly the information that I'm looking for. How will it make you feel? I don't want to make assumptions. But I'm just curious if when I ask you for your opinion, how does it make you feel?

Mick Spiers: 21:32

Yeah, it makes me wonder what angle you're going for. It makes me wonder whether you're ready for it? Are you looking for a compliment? Or are you looking for constructive feedback? It leaves me with more curiosity than it does anything else? I've got to say, at that moment.

Aga Bajer: 21:47

Yeah. So one thing you are curious. And that's a beautiful opportunity for someone who's asking for feedback, to lead with clarity, and say, I am actually looking for both. I'm looking for information about what I'm doing well, and I'm also looking for information about what I could improve when it comes to my body language. Can you tell me a little bit about that? And the fact that I'm asking your opinion about that, instead of I don't know, Simon Sinek? How does it make you feel?

Mick Spiers: 22:15

Yeah, it does make me feel trusted. It makes me feel like you do want to know, and that you're connecting with

Aga Bajer: 22:20

Yeah. And that's, you know, I asked a lot of people, I me. love asking these questions just to test my assumptions. And so I asked a lot of questions around, you know, tell me about your time you did your best work, what conditions were in place, I also asked people about their experiences with feedback. And it's really interesting, because when you ask people, tell me about a time when you received unsolicited feedback, how did it make you feel? What do you think people say? Usually how they respond to this question.

Mick Spiers: 22:50

I'm gonna say, some would say offended. Others, there would at least be some kind of almost shock moment of taking it back. And then there's a moment in time, do they get defensive? Or do they open? And I think some people will open I'll go, Okay, this is okay. Yeah, I welcome feedback. But I'm going to say a majority of people might take a more defensive stance.

Aga Bajer: 23:11

Yeah, 90% of people, if not more, have the same response as you do. And the reason for that is that this is how our brains are wired. You know, we are programmed for generating harmony and acceptance among our in group. So feedback, the phrase even is making people put their walls up immediately that this element of defensiveness, or maybe even feeling insulted, but certainly threatened, you know, am I going to be rejected and for our brain really rejections means that back in those times when we you know, we lived in the caves or on the savanna, a person who was alone, basically, the savanna was that a person. So if you needed your tribe, you didn't want to be rejected by your tribe. And very often feedback or the so called Bad news, as Apple calls it, they don't call it feedback. They say good news, bad news. The bad news is really bad news, because we might get rejected. So you get this visceral, very strong negative reaction to unsolicited feedback. But when people ask for feedback, they're open, willing to receive because it's self generated. And what's beautiful is that the person at the receiving end of that, as you've said, the emotional impact it has on them is positive, not negative. Because you said I'm feeling curious. I'm also feeling trusted. I'm feeling valued. And this is how you shift culture, you flip the negative stuff, and replace it with positive stuff. So my advice or my idea around how to cultivate a coaching culture or a feedback culture is you need to replace the negative feelings people have around feedback with positive ones and encouraging people to solicit feedback instead of giving unsolicited feedback is one of those ways of creating a positive impact on individuals. Hope it makes sense.

Mick Spiers: 25:04

Yeah, that's really good, Aga. You got me really thinking deeply. Here, I'm gonna share four takeaways from what you've just said. The first one is a cue or question to ask yourself, Is this feedback going to serve the person well, and is it going to serve the person well now? So there's a temporal aspect, and there's a content aspect of that this Second one is, is the feedback going to be welcome? And I love then you're flipping this switch and you're reframing it to make it more the feedback was invited instead of the feedback was given, which I love. And then the fourth one was how specific you were. And I think this is where we do fall down a lot. There's a good chance at the end of this podcast, I'm going to ask you something, when we go off air I go, I'm going to ask you something. How was that for you? That's not very specific. So you use some really good examples. I'm going to add one that I was thinking of when you're talking in my public speaking if at the moment if I'm working on making sure I put more intentional pauses in my speeches. That's the feedback I should ask. I should say, Aga, I'm really working on making sure I'm pausing at the right moments, for the right length of time for the right reason. Can you pay attention to my speech? And see if I'm doing that or not? So now I'm being really specific. And now Aga, I will How do you feel when I say that? How do you feel that I'm asking for that feedback?

Aga Bajer: 26:25

And thank you for that illustration. Because there's additional aspects here that you are highlighting, which is when you are soliciting feedback, you can be proactive, and you can help people help you. Because when you ask me, Aga, can you please when you listen to my keynote? Can you please focus on that you give me a lens that is going to be useful for you that I wouldn't have if we didn't have this conversation? So you know, a different approach would be you give the keynote. And then you tell me hey, by the way, I'm curious, what did you think about how I took pauses during that keynote? Well, the thing is, I wasn't paying attention to your pauses, you know. And so that was beautifully illustrated, because it's another way of taking charge of the feedback that we get, you know, be intentional, help people help you be the first one to reach out and help people help you in a way that is really going to have an impact on you. Because people really, genuinely don't know what might be useful for you at the moment. And the reality is that I might have other things to share about your keynote with you now Should I I don't know. Because honestly, we have very limited mind space bandwidth to process information. And I might give you 10 tips, you will probably not be able to process them and retain them in that moment. So the best way I can serve you is to give you exactly what you're asking me for. And you know, when we have an opportunity I can ask, you know, and by the way, I've noticed a couple of other things whenever you want to chat, if you want to chat, I'm happy to share. And you can say shorten me now or let's have this conversation at some other moment, it's fine. But it has to be I believe your decision. Because again, this is supposed to be a real gift, the kind of gift that you're not going to regret the kind of gift that you're not going to keep in the closet, it's supposed to be a gift that you can use, right.

Mick Spiers: 28:27

So love the call to action that we've already got here, Aga, which is to flip the script, and start inviting feedback rather than giving feedback. And we're going to be as specific as we can when we do so. So give the person that you're looking for that trusted person that you want to give feedback, give them a hint as to what they're looking for, and what you would help you and what would serve you. And then we're going to really get somewhere with this. Now, I want to ask you a few different questions now, Aga, but not everyone does this? Well, I'm gonna say the majority of us don't do it well, even if invited. Why do you think it is so difficult for people to give feedback?

Aga Bajer: 29:06

Well, I think the first thing is we all have bias, right? And we see the world not the way it is, but the way we are. And so we use our own lenses are looking at reality. And I think particularly when we miss that piece, you know, tell me about the pauses, I am going to prioritize the things that are important for me. And the reason why I'm going to do it is because this is all I have. I have you know my lenses. And unless you give me a lens that is more useful for you, I can only work with what I have. So that I think is one of the reasons why giving great feedback is so difficult. Another thing is this assumption that I think is part of the narrative that I have some beef with that we need to tell people something whether they want it or not. And you need to know right, what's important. And then even if we don't have something useful to say, we need to come up with something and obviously, it's so true. You know, no one's really interested in our opinion. If they are they will ask us but we very often present something that is wrapped up and presented. As an objective truth, but it's a very subjective opinion. And again, of course, it's linked to bias. Another reason why it's so difficult to give great feedback is that we simply don't know how to do it. Well, we don't have a process we have, we're never taught how to give feedback in the right way. And so we simply blurt it out or do it in a way that we believe is going to be effective. Another thing, and I think this is a foundational barrier is that we believe that we're entitled to giving people feedback. And the reality is that feedback and giving people feedback is a privilege. It's not a right. And it's a trust-based privilege. So in order to be in a position to give someone feedback that is going to be effective, we first need to have a track record of truly caring about their growth and development and their success. If you don't have that track record, there is no trust in your relationship. And whatever you say, and however eloquent you're going to be in how you convey this message is not going to land with our recipient. So I think the first thing to ask ourselves is have I built a relationship with this person to an extent where now they know that I genuinely care about them. And by the way, it's not just about knowing that you care, but it's about genuinely caring about others. Because feedback is not for us, it really isn't the best feedback that people can get. It's the kind of feedback that was conceived, crafted, and conveyed in a way that is going to serve the other person, not us, it's not a way to vent, it's not a way to get some weight off our shoulders, it's really supposed to be for the other person. And you know, as human beings, sometimes we're selfish. And sometimes we want to manipulate sometimes we want to direct things in a certain way, because it's more convenient for us. So we disguise direction as feedback, but people are smart, and they realize it, they know that it's not genuine feedback, and that our intentions are not right, they know that we're just trying to get something done our way. So you know, if you're trying to do that not gonna work, it's better to be transparent and say, Hey, I need you to do it my way. Because whatever, because this is the process. This is the procedure. This is how it needs to be done. Don't pretend that you are giving someone feedback.

Mick Spiers: 33:06

Outstanding, Aga, and people do know when they're being manipulated. So do check your motives before you start. And what I'm taking away from what you're saying, Aga, is that feedback is not about you, it's about them, and about what is going to serve them well to remember that you are a human being and you have bias, whether you like it or not, you have bias and you have perceptions. So your perception of what good looks like may not match the good that they were looking for. So, therefore, make it about them, not about your view. And this is where the specificity comes back into what I think as well, Aga. You made me think of a guest that we had on the show three years ago, and to share a quick story with you. And I think it's a beautiful illustration of what you're talking about. This is Don Campbell, he was on Episode 14, so more than three years ago in the show. And he was teaching us about deep listening, but he's a sculptor, and he teaches sculpture to students. And when a student would present their sculptor, it might be a bust to him and say, oh, I want your feedback. The first thing I'd say is what were you looking for here, what we aiming for, instead of going, that's terrible, I would never have done it that way. The most important question was What were you aiming for here. And then once he knew what they're aiming for, then he can say, okay, now I can talk to you about your technique and what you've managed to do well, and what you haven't done well to achieve the goal that you set out, and they might have like, there's a huge difference between a Picasso and you know, 15th century, perfectionist, master craftsman, right? Both of them are equally amazing. But if you're looking for a more Picasso versus an older sculptor, you're going to end up with a completely different element. So the first question, what were you aiming for before you give the feedback?

Aga Bajer: 34:50

And it's such a beautiful illustration of what it looks like to be really committed to serving the person rather than serving our own ego, right? Because you are not the one who said the objective here, the creator is and it kind of reminds me You know, sometimes just having this conversation with someone is feedback enough. I remember specifically a very similar conversation that I had with a friend of mine. And that was at a time when we created a new website, and she's in a similar space and I met her through a mastermind group so we keep meeting whilst for We're helping each other with marketing and stuff like that around her business. And she said, so what were you aiming at in terms of a feel? And you know, what do you want the website to convey about your business, etc, etc. And one of the concepts that is really important for me is simplicity, simplicity without dumbing things down, but I hate overcomplicating. And she said, so when you think about this principle of simplicity, how does this website conveyance? I didn't need any more feedback, just her asking this question was feedback enough? Because I realized it's not clean enough. It's not simple enough, we need to strip some things down. So this is one of the other myths that I would like to bust, which is that feedback is something that you give the other person receives this transactional thing that's happening, great feedback very often starts with a question, right? And it's not only the question about what were you aiming at here? It can be something like, even if someone asks you for feedback right away, it can be something like, how do you feel about that? So if you asked me, you know, tell me about my pull out? What was your sense. And what I'm doing by that is, I'm helping you reflect and digest your own experience. And that is also feedback, by the way, right? It doesn't mean that we need to be the carrier of the feedback. I think actually, mastery in feedback is coaching, where you ask really great questions that allow the person to identify what they're looking for in a way that is going to be useful and helpful to them. And then you can put your cherry on the top and maybe add a couple of new things or new ways of thinking this, obviously, this is why they are asking you, for your opinion, they want to understand and see a third sort of eye or third party angle as well. So thanks for sharing that, because that kind of prompted me to remind everyone that feedback is not transactional feedback is not a one way street feedback is a dialogue and a conversation. And very often actually, when you are being asked for feedback, it's pretty cool to say, Hey, is it okay? If I ask you a couple of questions first, so that I, you know, I'm in a better position to give you the sort of feedback, that's going to be helpful. And then you can, you know, you can ask them to reflect on stuff themselves as well.

Mick Spiers: 37:53

?Love it, we've got so many calls to action here, Aga. And I want to take a moment to reflect on some of those now. So first of all, we're flipping the script, and we're going to invite feedback. Rather than give feedback, we're going to make sure that the feedback is about person, we're going to try and make sure that the feedback is specific. It's around something that they were looking to aim for. And then the fourth one now is that we're making it a dialogue. And you might ask more questions that then you actually answer when you're giving this. So how did you feel about that? Where do you think it went? Well, what would you do differently? If you did it? Again, some really open questions to get them to reflect because that will be something that powers them on the question of want to ask now, I guess, if you've tried all of that, let's say that we've done this, and we've really been very intentional, I want that word to stick as well, we've been very intentional in the way that we're going about this. And then the person gets defensive. What do we do then

Aga Bajer: 38:51

Don't want to getting defensive is the form of feedback that we are getting as a faculty who engages in this conversation, because there are certain things that are going to make people defensive. And one of them is when something in them is being threatened. And if something in them is being threatened, it doesn't mean necessarily that we are responsible for that, because obviously, you know, we all have our stuff, we all have our trauma, we all have our issues from childhood. And you know, if you unintentionally trigger me by saying something, I'm not saying here that this is going to be your fault. And you should take all the responsibility on you. But it's giving you feedback, situational feedback around this person now is feeling threatened. Usually defensiveness means that my self-identity, the way I see myself is being threatened. I want to be this person and the information that I'm getting is not congruent with who I want to be. And that causes me to push this away. And so when someone gets defensive, ask yourself, What can I do? How can I create a safer environment so that they can absorb this information or explore this information? And it might be in real time creating that environment, but it might be that you need to pause and give the person some time to reflect. I think one of the pitfalls when we are in feedback conversations is Is that we feel that we need to complete the entire loop of the feedback conversation. In the moment, let me tell you something interesting, from personal experience, the best, the most powerful feedback that I have ever received, did threaten my identity, I did get defensive, I didn't say thank you. In that moment, I was feeling very insecure, and certainly didn't express gratitude. I went away, I reflected on it for weeks. And eventually, I realized that this person was right. So this can happen. And I think defensiveness is not necessarily a sign that you're doing something wrong, or they will not be able to process it, maybe they just need some time to break down and absorb the information in a way that serves them. And truly transformational feedback. deep conversations are not easy. And so I want to disconnect this idea of feeling comfortable in a feedback conversation from the effectiveness of it, it's there really not related, it can feel super uncomfortable. And you can see some signs of defensiveness. And yet it can be a very effective feedback conversation. Now, the big question is, though, have you created a psychologically unsafe environment? Because you might have so I think the first question to ask ourselves is, am I threatening this person now with what I'm saying, either the their identity or our relationship, because you know, the way for example, Amy Edmondson defines psychological safety is our ability to be able to speak our truth, without the fear that we are going to jeopardize the relationship that we have with the other person. And so if the person feels like the conversation we're having is jeopardizing our relationship, it might be on me, and I need to reflect on what have I said, What have I done to make it unsafe for the other person?

Mick Spiers: 42:24

Okay. All right. So we're tuned into psychological safety and making sure that we've created that environment. The second I'm hearing is essentially to have our emotional intelligence radar up and to see if there is an emotional reaction to the feedback being given and to understand that that emotion might be coming from a place where one of their human needs is not being met. And in this case, it could be sense of self, it could be the story that they're now hearing right in front of their eyes, is contrary to the story that they tell themselves about themselves inside their head, and therefore, they feel challenged at this moment. And I love the tip about pausing, and it may take them a while to process it in a safe space. I'll add in a safe space back again, to bookend that, from the start to the end. Really powerful Aga, now I want to literally flip chairs. What if we're the one on the receiving end? How do we embrace a better model for receiving feedback?

Aga Bajer: 43:17

So I created a framework actually, to help people receive feedback, especially when it's unsolicited, where it feels like we're not in control when something's coming our way. And perhaps there is a dynamic of power there as well. Because very often, of course, we get feedback from our bosses or our board members, people who are in a position of power. And very often, you know, it's not considered mature to say, I don't want any feedback from you right now. Right? We are expected to sit there and take it. And yes, in order for us to be able to benefit from that feedback, we need to be able to hear it. So I created an acronym here that helps people wrap their minds around when I get unsolicited feedback from someone who it's not possible to walk out of the room, for example, and just leave the conversation and want to hear it. What is the process? What am I supposed to be doing? So h in this acronym stands for hold? And hold means Hold your horses suspend judgment, don't raise that wall immediately. Don't get defensive. Now, how do you do that? There is a tiny pause that we can take before our amygdala gets hijacked. We don't have a lot of time for that. And it will get hijacked. When we feel like oh, this is going to be the bad news kind of feedback, or someone's going to criticize me. So the only thing really we have time for is taking a deep breath or a technique that I share often with people is maybe a split of a second, a gesture that is going to help us to put ourselves in the right mindset. Now what am I talking about when I talk about a gesture so there's this idea in NLP called anchoring and anchoring, you're nodding your head I know that you're familiar with but for our audience for people who are not familiar with anchoring. Anchoring is basically creating a gesture and it can be what I'm doing now for those of you who are not watching it, but just listening to the audio I'm touching my thumb and my index now my isn't my index finger in English Yes, my index finger. Yeah. So I'm touching them now. And this is actually my anchor I'm using anchoring as well. And when I'm making this gesture for me it has been associated by my body and my nervous system with a sense of self-confidence, calm and the receptiveness. How do you anchor that. So you use a technique called visualization, where you basically imagine yourself being in that mental state. So feeling strong, feeling confident, feeling incredibly calm, and also being open to what people have to share with you. And once you reach the peak of that state, you make the gesture that I described, or you make your own gesture, because basically, it has to be something that is discrete, that is going to work for you in all sorts of situations. And then once you create that gesture, you repeat the visualization again, and really try to amplify all the positive feelings. So the self confidence, the calm, that you are feeling, the openness, etc, etc. And you do it a few times, it's good to repeat it also with time. And finally, it really does get anchored in your nervous system. And once you do that, you start feeling the feelings that you wanted to feel. So when you are surprised with feedback, it's good to have something like that a trick like that up your sleeve, so that you can literally in a blink of an eye, put yourself in a better mental state without escaping the room. So that would be my hold. And once you do that, then the ease of the acronym is engage, right? So someone is sharing something with you. But you really need to understand the core message. And very often, unfortunately, people are not entirely clear. And we do need to ask clarification questions, or maybe ask them for some examples. So that we can really understand where they're coming from what they're trying to accomplish, sharing the information with us. Again, remember that feedback is not a one way street. So you absolutely can and should engage in a conversation. And in a dialogue with a person your objective in engaging with them is to truly truly understand the message that the other person is trying to convey. So this is the E in our here model. Now moving on to a a is all about assessing whether once you've got the core message, right, so you don't move on to assessing before you get the core message. Once you get the core message. It's about assessing, is this relevant for me? And is this useful for me, because not all feedback is gold. Not all feedback is breakfast of champions. And sometimes the stuff that people tell you, it might work for them, it might be important for them, but it might be completely irrelevant for you or maybe completely misaligned with your values. It's really doesn't mean that when someone's offering you something, you need to take it you need to embrace it. So this is the assessing part where you basically decide which parts of it are going to be useful for me, what am I going to embrace what is the stuff that is not relevant for me. So that was the A and finally PE R is respond, I think it's important to say what you are taking away from this conversation, the parts that you truly appreciate, sometimes in good feedback conversations, you will also have ideas for how you can change how you can do things differently. It is incredibly valuable to share this with the person who put themselves in this uncomfortable position, let's be honest, to give you feedback. So saying someone to someone thanks for that. Thank you for telling me that once I got to the difficult part of my keynote, I rushed through it. And I didn't pause at all next time when I gave his keynote, I will be super-mindful that around slide number 17 I need to take frequent pauses because this is the difficult part for me. And I know that I will get stressed and I know that I will just rush through it. So you tell them what you're going to do differently based on their feedback. This is the ultimate validation for your counterpart, responding to their feedback and telling them how you're going to change or what you will keep doing well because maybe they have cut highlighted that there are some things that you are doing absolutely, brilliantly. So that's the R. And you know, it's a simple framework, but I think it's really helpful to keep that in mind when you are getting surprised by unsolicited feedback.

Mick Spiers: 50:05

This is absolutely amazing, Aga and everyone listening to this right now I want you, this is another key takeaway for you from this interview today or this discussion today. If you're listening to this on the tram on the way to work, I want you to think about this when you go into the next situation where you are soliciting or and soliciting feedback. So here model that hold We're gonna hold space and we're going to listen without judgment, engage, we're going to seek first to understand not to be understood at this point, we want to understand what the feedback is, then we're going to assess, and then we're going to respond. And that little catch at the end respond in an actionable way. What are you going to do differently next time, based on the feedback that you've just gotten from this person that you trust? You trust this person? You're seeking their feedback? What are you going to do to put that into action? So Hold, Engage, assess, respond, this is really powerful Agha, I feel richer for having listened to you live. Share that with us now. And I know that I'm going to put this into action as well. So that's probably a good time. Now to wrap us up, I go and take us to our Rapid Round. We've spoken today a lot about the role of feedback around flipping the switch and turning it into more and invited rather than giving feedback about making sure that the feedback is about the person making sure that it's specific. These are all wonderful things. And then this here model for when we're receiving feedback, really powerful stuff. So I'd like to take us now to that Rapid Round. These are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. So that's the one thing that you know now as a buyer, that you wish you knew when you're 20.

Aga Bajer: 51:44

I wish I knew that the best thing that I can do as a leader is to learn this phrase and use it often. I don't know,.

Mick Spiers: 51:53

That's very powerful. You don't have to know all the answers and stop pretending that you do and yet the world will be a lot better. Very good. What is your favorite book?

Aga Bajer: 52:03

Oh, boy, that's a hard question. Because I have read so much. And the such a long list. But I'll zoom on one. Well, this is probably an unconventional choice. But this is one of the books that I'm returning to over and over and over again. And it's Mark Aurelius meditations. I'm a big Stoic fan. Everything I've learned about true leadership, and being a decent human has some roots in stoicism. And so I would definitely recommend that people explore it is a journal that the Emperor Marcus Aurelius kept for himself. It was not meant to be published. These were reflections that he was basically trying to process the experiences of his life. And I think like very often the way we transform, I think our experience into wisdom is through this digestive process very often through journaling. This is what he was doing. And there is so much wisdom there. That literally very often, I will read just a couple of pages in the morning, before I journal, and there are so many leadership lessons there. So if you were to read just one book about life, about being a decent human being and being a great leader, that would be my recommendation.

Mick Spiers: 53:18

Absolutely. Love it. Thank you, Aga. What's your favorite quote?

Aga Bajer: 53:21

What's my favorite quote? Oh, my gosh, I'm so bad with remembering quotes. Well, I'll share quotes from Maya Angelou. And she has a lot of great quotes, by the way, but one that always stuck with me is that people will not remember what you said what you did, but they will always remember and I'm butchering it, she said it much better than that. But she says that they will remember is how you made them feel. So that emotional impact that we have on others is the most important thing. And it's goes back to being intentional, and especially as a leader, asking ourselves, what am I aiming to accomplish here? How do I want to make this person feel? And actually recently in our culture brand community, we had Henry Stewart, who wrote the Happy Manifesto, and he's one of the thinkers of Thinker 50. And we had a conversation about what's the job of a leader. And I think he captures it quite nicely by saying, Well, how would our organizations be different if we assume that the job of the leader is to make their team members feel good about themselves? And I think that's quite powerful. So again, back to Maya Angelou, how do you make your team feel? Do you make them feel more confident, more optimistic? Do you make them feel more capable? Do you make them feel like they can be more brave and bold because if you are doing that, you're doing a great job.

Mick Spiers: 54:51

Absolutely, love it. Thank you for sharing that Aga and putting all of that context around it as well. Really beautiful. Finally, there's going to be people listening to this and their minds have been expanded without any doubt. But they will want to take action on this. How do people find you and get involved in your community and take advantage of the work that you do, Aga?

Aga Bajer: 55:11

I appreciate you asking it. And I think the best place to find me is either my website which is agabajer.com. That's A G A B A J E R.com Or just connecting with me on LinkedIn. It's one of the plus forms that I'm most active on. And if you'd like to join our community, we have a beautiful community for cultural leaders, people who are shaping culture in their organizations who are truly curious to find new and better ways of cultivating an environment where people can do their best work. It's a global community, we really the entire globe is represented. And it's such a generous community. If you are curious to learn more about this community, again, you can find it on my website, or just Google Aga Bajer community. And that's going to be the first thing that pops up. We are embracing everyone who wants to create positive change in their organization. So if that's you, and if you feel like you need some fresh thinking around how do I create a great working environment for my team, it might be a community for you.

Mick Spiers: 56:17

Absolutely, wonderful, Aga, we will put all of those links in the show notes as well to help people find it. And I do encourage you to reach out Aga , connect, look at this community. I'm sure that you've learned a lot from this discussion today. As have I, thank you so much for your time today for your gift of your wisdom and insights, and for giving us some very practical and actionable tips on how we can improve the way we give and receive feedback. Thank you so much.

Aga Bajer: 56:47

Thank you Mick, and if I may express my gratitude as well for this conversation, but also for the work that you're doing. I think the way you hold space for your guests and how intensely you listen and have your flesh out or the insights for your audience is really exceptional. I really enjoyed the conversation. But I also appreciate the work that you're doing. It's much needed. We do need better leaders, we do need people who can mentor young leaders to be more effective. And I know that this is the sweet spot of your show. So I'll be promoting your show as well because I know that people will get a lot of value from the conversations that you have with your guests. Thank you for having me.