147. Jazz Principles for Teamwork with Gerald J. Leonard

💭 Ever wondered how the smooth, improvisational flow of a jazz band could teach us about skyrocketing productivity in the workplace?

Gerald J. Leonard is the CEO of the Productivity Intelligence Institute where he focuses on helping people to master productivity so they can unlock their full potential for success. He harmonizes both worlds of music and business, emphasizing how teams can flourish by embracing the collaborative spirit of a jazz ensemble. Through personal stories and actionable strategies, Gerald transforms the way we perceive team dynamics and workflow, ensuring every individual's strengths contribute to the collective's success.

With Gerald's guidance, we uncover how the emotional vibe of an organization can resonate as harmoniously as our favorite songs, fostering a culture that sings to a tune of shared values and positive dynamics. By encouraging growth opportunities, we understand that fostering a growth mindset is crucial to business leadership.

🎧 Listen to this episode and be ready to conduct your own team's performance to new heights.

🌐 Connect with Gerald:
• Website: https://www.turnberrypremiere.com and https://geraldjleonard.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geraldjleonard/
• Email: gleonard@turnberrypremiere.com
• Free resources for listeners of The Leadership Project: https://productivityintelligenceinstitute.com/TLP

📚 You can purchase Gerald's books at Amazon:
• A Symphony of Choices:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCXQLYDX/
• Workplace Jazz: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08R7Z91CL/ 
• Culture Is The Bass: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YMP3Q2Z/

Books Mentioned:
Conversational Intelligence by Judith E. Glaser
The Goal Book by Eliyahu Goldratt

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:26

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Gerald J. Leonard, Gerald is the CEO of the Productivity Intelligence Institute and he focuses on helping people to master productivity so they can unlock their full potential for success. He's also the author of a book called Symphony of Choices, how managing a team is like conducting a Jazz Ensemble. So I'm really interested in this from multiple factors, I'm thinking about how we can as individuals unlock our productivity, but what's more interesting for me is then also as we branch into how you can master productivity across projects, across portfolios, across teams, through this thought of you leading a Jazz Ensemble. So without any further ado, Gerald, I would love it if you would please say hello to our audience and tell us a bit about your background and what led you to be focused on productivity so much.

Gerald J. Leonard: 1:26

Excellent! Well, thank you so much, Mick for having me, and I'm really excited about being here. So what led me to this place that I'm at in my life right now, where I've combined the concepts of music and productivity and project management is my journey. And I also want to make sure I say this to Hello to everyone who's listening. And if you're, you know, by yourself with someone, wherever you are, I just want to welcome you to the show, and welcome you to some of the things I want to share. And I pray that what I share really makes an impact on you in a positive way. So how did I get started? Well, I started off, and if right over, I'm gonna go this way, there's a little red guitar on the wall, it has no strings. And I left it that way, because my sister found it and gave it back to me, because it used to be hers when years ago, and I would steal it from her and sit in the closet and play it. And so she realized she wasn't going to play. So I just basically took her guitar from her. And she let me have it, in more ways than one I would always say. And so that journey of playing music just activated me and I just fell in love with playing, I really got good at playing the guitar. But I joined the band with some friends. And one of them was a really amazing guitar player. So I knew I wasn't gonna be the guitar player. So I started playing bass. And with bass, it's all about being deliberate and practicing and knowing the song and supporting everyone, and all these things. And guess what a lot of those lessons that I learned as a kid learning to play music are the things that have propelled me in business and some of the same concepts that I've used. And so I went to college, graduate undergraduate school, did my masters in music, moved to New York, studied with a German at Juilliard, through the Manhattan School of Music for one year, played professionally in New York, and did some ministry work and decided, you know, I got married, had a couple of kids and got and decided I wanted to go back into music. But because of my beliefs, and where I was at, I really didn't want to play, you know, the bars and those kinds of things. And so and I also didn't really want to be on the road and travel and be away from my kids, because I felt it was my responsibility to really be there for them. So I did a lot of local orchestras and different types of concerts who I still play, but I needed to make a living. So I got into IT, and I had just happened to been trained on the computers and hadn't really gone to school for it. It was I was mentored on it. And I just started reading all kinds of books. And I found myself where all the music training I had done throughout my career had actually prepared me to pick up the computer because picking up a computer is like picking up another instrument, you know, there's kinesthetics to it. It's the virtual is the visual, and it's a lot like a lot of same concepts. Long story short, after doing this for let's say, 25 plus years of playing music and doing business and becoming a consultant, I realized over that period of time that the same experience I would have as a musician playing in a show, or rehearsing with the band, or preparing for a workshop or a seminar on a show was the same experience that great business teams had, you know, great business teams have an audience, they have a sponsor individuals coming together, and they're bringing their best selves to the table, whether you're a developer or a business analyst, project manager, quality assurance person, you're bringing a certain skill to that group. But once we are a group, we have to go what's the big picture? What's the goal of what we're trying to accomplish? And it's like a performance. And just like in jazz, where you have a bass player, drummer, piano player, guitar player, and everyone's playing their instrument, their individual instrument, but they're focused on the big picture. They have to listen, they have to work together, they have to lend each other to stress. And when one person solos, everybody else, listen to what he's doing, and they try to complement what he's doing. And I found that, you know, business groups do the same thing. When it's time to recapture the requirements. The business analyst is the one who's doing the soloing. He's capturing all the everybody supporting him. When it's time to develop the software. The developers are crunching up the software and everybody supporting them when it's time to test it. So you get the picture. It's a back, it's really a flow and a back and forth. And I started speaking a lot. And for Microsoft and for other organizations PMI, and people would come up and talk to me about my background, you know, my degrees in music, I still perform my ministry stuff. And they would go like, man, you it's like a really interesting guy. And I will begin to tie the two together. And so over time, I ended up writing my first book Culture is the base, my second book, Workplace Jazz, and then the book that I just released on August 1, with John Wiley and son, which is A Symphony of Choices. It's really it's about some jazz, but it really is about mentoring, and mentorship, and so it's a really interesting, and a fun way to look at business and life and music and everything else.

Mick Spiers: 6:08

Outstanding, Gerald, there's many things I want to unpack out of everything you just said. And I'm going to share some of them quickly. But then we're going to go down a few rabbit holes here. So I'm hearing this thought, so you got an orchestra or mini orchestra or a band, whatever you want to call it, you've got a group of talented individuals, but unless they've got some level of purpose alignment, it could be a whole big mess, unless there's some kind of purpose alignment. The second part was then that listening to each other. And if we're truly deeply listening to each other, we can then co create something that complements each other and is greater than the sum of the parts. That was the second one. The third one's really interesting for me, is that yes, okay, this concept that everyone has their own superpower and their own strength. We've spoken about that a lot on the show. There's a nuance in what you shared today, Gerald, that I think is really interesting. So you mentioned that first band that you joined, and that you knew how to play the guitar, but there was a better guitarist in the band. So you adapted your skills to complement that person by playing bass. Now, I instantly thought of so many teams out there, where there's overlapping superpowers. But what is better for the team at times is for one person to play the lead guitar, another person to play the rhythm guitar and another person to play the bass, another person to play the drums aren't going to put out one famous musician and say Dave Grohl, right, so Dave Grohl plays all of the above, started playing drums in Nirvana and goes on to create the Foo Fighters. And through all of that different things, you will watch different videos. And you'll see in some clips, he's playing bass, like for the man who sold the world, for example, in other clips, he's playing guitar and other clips, he's paying drums and other clips he's singing, depending on what the situation calls on. So we've always spoken about this concept on the show that everyone has their own individual superpower. And we need to create an environment where that superpower come to the fore. But now what I'm hearing, it's an adaptive superpower to go what is the situation in front of us call upon? What role do I have to play? What role do my friends need to play my team members for optimal result right now? How does that sit with you? And tell me more about your thoughts on that one.

Gerald J. Leonard: 8:28

Yeah, I think you're spot on when it comes to the adaptable superpower, because you know, what musicians get together, the goal is to co create a great performance, right? So every night the plan plays together, you may have the melody and some of the things that happened, and especially around jazz, right, where everyone takes a time to interpret the song the way they want to interpret it, based on what's going on. And so every night, that same song may start off sounding the same, but then it takes a turn, depending on who's solos first, depending on how their day was, depending on what's going on in their life, they may play slower, they may play faster, they may play Happy tones, and or they may play very mysterious types of tones. And so everyone in the band has to subject a surrender. That's the word I'm looking for, to surrender themselves to supporting that effort. And it's really about CO creating something and being engaged. You know, musicians communicate really on a level that's almost like nonverbal, right? Because many times you're playing and things are going so fast. You're looking at you and you're like, I know where you going, right? I know where to get ready to do. And then you follow him. You're like, Oh, my God, and you and the audience just sitting there going like, This is amazing. They're like playing, they're like read each other's mind. Because in some ways they are. They're picking up on the vibe of what's going on in the music, and they are in tune with each other. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to just be in music, it can be that way. And business, it can be that way. But it really does require a sort of humility from each person in the group. But it also requires each person in the group to bring their best a game because if you're in the middle of a performance, you can't go now what was that tune and where see and how do I play this note and how do I finger this? You have to that has to be you'd have to know that coal, right? You'd have to really know your instrument coal so that when you come to the performance, now you're focused on how can I leverage my I skill to make this the best song ever does it need all of the things that I can do? Or does it need me just to play a really solid fat note and sit on it while everybody else is playing around it, and then lean into the next nap. So, you know, in business, it really requires some of the same skills and mindset. And it really requires that surrender to support mentality and a sense of humility, where you know, you're confident, and you're bringing your A game, but you also know that you're subjecting your A game to the best of what the overall big picture is, for the performance or for the project.

Mick Spiers: 10:59

Yeah, there's a few things I'm thinking about there. Gerald, the metaphor, the juxtaposed metaphor I'm thinking of is jazz performance, customer workshop, jazz performance, customer workshop. And if you're in that customer workshop, everyone's going to have a bit of a role to play, but they're going to play off each other, they're going to have those little sideways glances to each other. Because it has to be adaptable, because you don't know what the customer what questions they're gonna throw to you or anything like that. But you've done rehearsals, and you've done all that kind of stuff. But then you're playing what's in front of you, and you looking at each other. And it's magical when it works. And there's an element of letting it go to let it come. Alright, letting it go to let it come. So sometimes you have to sit back and let that person stand up and shine for their part, and then come in and compliment them. And then five minutes later, it's going to be your turn, it's going to be your turn to step up, and they're going to be complimenting you. But here's the interesting thing. And I see this in jazz musicians a lot actually is it doesn't become competitive, it becomes a collective. It's complimentary is complementary, right. So if everyone tried to play their solar at once, it'd be a big mess. I'll go even further. If everyone starts to try out play each other, it becomes a mess. But what I see when it happens really well, you spoke about before, okay, it's this person's turn to do a solo now. Big beaming smile in your face you proud of that person. You're not competing against them. You're proud of their Solo.

Gerald J. Leonard: 12:21

Right, you want them to do their best Yeah. And you want to support them as they do their best. And because that's really, you know, it's interesting, I talk a lot about a lot of my books, I talk a lot about neuroscience. And in my second book, workplace jazz, where I really delve into some of the things around jazz teams and how jazz seems like agile teams, one of the core skills is positivity, just being positive. And that's a really as a mindset and attitude. But it's a skill because you can learn to be positive. And all positivity is is neural chemicals, right? Because if I'm happy, my brain is producing oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, and GABA, and all these, I can't help but be happy, because my brain is kind of creating all these drugs that are going to make me happy. But if I'm competitive and kind of unsupportive, then my brain is gonna start producing cortisol and adrenaline. And I'm gonna feel tense and aggressive and frustrated. And guess what I mean, imagine going to a concert, where the musicians have just kind of had a brawl or argument, and they get on stage. And they're kind of snarling at each other, and they're full of adrenaline and cortisol, and they don't like each other, they're not looking to play together. I mean, that would be a horrible concert, even if they were perfectly even if they were Pitch Perfect, there would be no emotion as far as what the music is doing. And so you know, business teams are the same way. And so I think the idea and the art of a lot of the things we call soft skills today, especially with AI coming on board, and a lot of the unknowns of what that's going to do to, you know, so many jobs and automating jobs and jobs where there's a repetitive activity, you know, the work is going to be more human work, where we work together and CO create and collaborate a lot more project work, which is really just hurting humans or hurting cats, right. And the only way you can do that is you have to meet them where they are, and really have that positivity, and everyone works together towards that common goal.

Mick Spiers: 14:20

So that's the call to action I want to share with people I hopefully, we're already jumped to this metaphor, or jumped to this thought, but think about in your teams, whether it's customer workshops, or internal meetings, or whatever the case may be. Give yourself an honest scorecard here, and whether it's yourself or you got other team members in the room? are they competing against each other? Are they trying to one up each other, like always trying to be the dominant voice in the room almost talking over each other? Or are they letting it go? Are they listening to each other? Are they co creating? are they letting other people take the spotlight when it's appropriate to and then taking their turn? When is there? Is it cohesive? Or is it I'm gonna say almost toxic? Sometimes that's probably a little extreme. But have a think about your team interactions isn't and is it more like a smooth jazz ensemble? Or is it a mess where you've got a bunch of people always wanting to take the lead and prove that they're the smartest in the room? That's the question. And then what I want to ask you, Gerald is then if someone has answered yes to that question, if they're thinking, oh, yeah, that's happening in my team right now. What advice Can you give them to allow them to create this? Let it go situation where people do complement each other and they're proud of each other and they're in dopamine territory instead of cortisol territory. What advice can you give the leaders?

Gerald J. Leonard: 15:40

Exactly, well, here's a great piece of advice. And this is an exercise I did that I learned from a lady named Judith Glaser who wrote the book, conversational intelligence. I work with Judith for about two years in her certification program on neuroscience. Before she passed away, she did pass away from cancer. And one of the exercises that she teaches, and I actually referenced it and give her credit for the reference, give her credit for the reference, there is something called rules of engagement. Now the rules of engagement exercise. And I actually did this with a team where we had a little bit of turnover, a few of the people had been brought into the team really didn't understand the project and the history of the project. And the work that we were doing, a couple of people came in kind of somewhat negative about the project based on what they had heard, we were doing some great work, but they just they were on the outside. So they didn't really see all of what was happening on the inside of the project. And I looked at it, I knew that this was going to be a problem down the road, if we don't all get on the same page and create that connection. That might be the original team, like the original band hat, right? If the original team hat. So one of the things I did is I had everybody leave their computer on their desk, and this is before COVID. So we were able to call out, you know colocate get together face to face. And we got in a conference room. And I gave everybody sticky notes, this post it notes and said, Okay, I want you to think about one of your best projects that you've ever worked been on, or an organization that you've been a part of that when it came to an end, you felt sad, because you fell in love with being a part of that group, you fell in love with the way the meetings work, you fell in love with the people that were there, you really just love what you were doing in that situation. So then I got quiet. And I said, Okay, take a few minutes. And I want you to write down eight words or phrases related to those attributes. So everybody did that. Then we had a whiteboard, I said, Okay, different started calling on different people and said, Okay, what I want you to do is go up, and I want you to put up your attributes and share a little bit about why you chose those attributes. So they did so one person went up, and they had, you know, integrity, respect, fun, and so on, you get the ideas, basically values that people put up, the next person gets up. And they have, I will say 60 to 70% of the same thing written down on a sheet of paper, and I started and so I said, we're going to create an affinity diagram. And if you have the same words, put that post a note on top of the other one, or write along with it. So we can see that those are the same area, same ideas, right? And then the outliers we put on the outside over there if it didn't, if it wasn't a couple minutes or anything. And I said, and I asked as they came up like, okay, great. This is interesting. So why did you chose these things here, and they will share this is what's important to me. So we got to understand what was important to them individually. By the time we got to let's say we had about seven or eight people in that room doing that by the time we got through everyone, I would say close to 80% was a part of the affinity diagram of people in the room having the same values of what they felt was important. And what that exercise does is that even if people are doing in the room, and they're negative, and blah, blah, blah, when you see someone who has the same values as you, and they smile and laugh at the same things that you do, your brain can't help but to produce oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, you're gonna get happy, you're gonna get like, Okay, wow, I thought you guys were like out there. And you're like, you're more like me than I thought. And so what began to happen is when we talked about the outliers, we understood people's uniqueness. But we also realized that we had more that was similar than what was unique, and that we all really wanted the same thing. And we've had a conversation, the team was totally different after that, it was like the old you know, because it was basically a new culture. And here's my thing about culture, and why I named my first book culture is the base, think about music, think about one of the songs that you listen to, and you tap your toe, when it comes on, you bump your head, and you know, it just makes you feel good. It takes you back to a time in your life where something was really going on. And you're really happy about it, that base and usually it's a baseline in the drums. So what is that it's a feel, right? It's a groove. It's a vibe. So to me culture, with all this other things that people make about culture. It's really the vibe, it's where you come from, it's your people and everything else, but it's the emotional experience. It's the vibe of the organization. And that vibe is usually based on the overall vision that's been cast for it. But the second thing is based on and this is what I talked about, my first book is based on the values of everyone in the room, the agreed upon values. And when I got that team together, and we got an agreement and an alignment around the values that we all embraced and realized that most of our values were in common with each other. It just created a very A very positive environment. And that really turned things around.

Mick Spiers: 20:30

I love it Gerald and I love the reference to Judith and Judith's work, and certainly around things like conversational intelligence, the very thought of moving from an AI world towards a we world. And I love this exercise that you're talking about, I think these are the conversations that we need to have. And sometimes we lose sight of it, everyone turns up to work, I'm going to say with more in common than they have that a unique 100%. And values are a big part of what everyone wants trust, everyone wants integrity, everyone wants to be respected. If you have those conversations, and you remind yourself of that, from time to time, it can defuse some of those tricky situations where things have gotten a bit out of hand. So I feel like that's about conversations that you need to have. And I love your metaphor around the bass and the drums here, and it's a bit more like, it's like the rhythm, the rhythm of okay, this is what's keeping us going, this is what's motivating, it's going forward and 100% right about every song that I love is heavily influenced by what gets gets my foot tapping is the drums and the bass, right. So it's that rhythm of the values, I really love it. So the call to action there for the audience is if you're in that situation where everyone is turning up to do their very best work, no one is turning up at work to be a jerk or whatever the case may be. But in those moments, where you start having a few, let's say fractious moments in the organization, when was the last time you didn't exercise like Gerald is talking about and get back to what's more common than what is different? I think that's really you still respecting everyone's differences. That's not what it's about. But it's remembering the common values. And that can get you through a lot of challenging times. That's really cool. Joe, want to go back to another part around the whole guitar versus bass thing, right. And this whole thing where there might be overlapping superpowers, the question I want to ask you also is about how we create opportunities for learning and growth in the business. Now, I'm gonna give an example a music example, and then a real life example and love to hear your thoughts on it. So when I was hearing you talk before, I was also thinking of this, that if you do have an up and coming guitarist, right, they may not be the best guitarist in the band, but they're an up and coming guitarist. If that guitarist doesn't get opportunities to stretch themselves to maybe take a solo from time to time, or whatever the case may be, they will reach some kind of limit of growth at some point. So what I'm thinking is even the best guitarist in the band may sometimes have to step back and let someone else shine. Now, my example, I love public speaking, Gerald, right. So in any business situation, let's say that there's a conference coming up, and everyone looks at each other and goes, Oh, yeah, someone needs to do the presentation at this conference. Most eyes usually gravitate towards now it's obvious. MCs should go into that he loves that stuff. But there's going to be at least one other person in the room who's always wanted to master public speaking, but just never gets the chance to practice. Because there's someone else. Tell me how that might play out in your thoughts around whether music or business?

Gerald J. Leonard: 23:36

Sure, I mean, well, here's the thing to grow, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and people need opportunities to grow. And what's interesting with musicians is irregardless of where you are. And I've met some of the best bass players, musicians in the world who are like at the top of their game, and it's like, Man, how do you get better from that? How do you improve on that, and you know, what they find a way they find a way they study, they go get a coach, they go get a mentor, they seek out opportunities to where they can put themselves out there. And it would be who've if you're in a band, or in a business that the leader, right, the person who's kind of leading the organization, or who's, you know, if it's a consensus or whatever the group that the folks that are leading, really need to have a growth mindset, if it's a mindset of, okay, this is the way we've done it this way, we're always gonna do it this way, we're, well, you're not gonna be around as a business or a band much longer, right? Because things are moving so fast and changing that we all have to be on our cutting edge of constantly growing, we have to have that just in time, or just in time growth or training mindset. And it really does require the senior person becoming more of a mentor as their and growing themselves. Because here's the thing, if you're the leader of an organization, and you're growing, you realize that you're going to be in situations where you're going to be you're gonna have to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and you will realize that the only way my people or your people can grow is that they need to be in they need to learn how to be in comfortable positions being uncomfortable, and only they do that as you give them those opportunities to step out and take that solo, or step out and play that important part on this particular project and be there to help them if something goes wrong because it's interesting, you know, and musicians play together and someone who's A younger musician is a part of the band and they get caught out, they're playing and they're like, Okay, what do I do now, I'm kind of losing it here. The older musicians are the more senior or seasoned musicians will step in and start playing along with them and give them that emotional vado. Giving that energy to say, Hey, you got this, you know, you got a bad note is a bad note only if you look at it as a bad note, because either if you go up a half step or down a half step, you're on the right note. And if you go back to that bad note again, and go back again, to the positive note, pretty soon people think, Oh, he meant to do that. He meant to play that note, it sounded weird at first, but now that people have heard it a few times, it sounds pretty cool. But it's the vibe and it's the energy of everyone on the team. So if you think about it, when it comes to business, you know, I'm the CEO of belly, the linear productivity intelligence Institute, but I'm also the CEO of a consulting company called Turnberry Premier. And you know, we have some pretty big clients. And I am always trying to set the pace from the standpoint of being out there learning and growing, publishing books, doing my podcast, being on podcast, being interviewed on television, writing articles. So my team sees me as someone not just as, hey, he's the guy out front trying to do all this stuff. But he's learning, he's going to workshops, he does this thing called Photo reading, or he does all different types of things to keep growing himself. Oh, and by the way, he has a vestibular imbalance, or what we would call a disability, he calls it a constraint, and he's become more productive, even with those challenges. So what's my excuse? Me, he's opening the door and giving me opportunity. So if we're doing those things, then we're gonna grow our companies, as well as we're gonna grow our organization. So we're gonna grow our bands, if you will.

Mick Spiers: 27:11

You know, what I loved about the story you just told, Gerald, is when that more seasoned musician is supporting the junior musician, you said, you've got this, that they come up with them, they gave them a bit of support, but you've got this. It wasn't a you made a mistake. You better sit down. I've got this. It was you've got this. I just thought that was wonderful.

Gerald J. Leonard: 27:33

Think about it this way. Music is a language, right? Music is a language, you would never tell your kid who's two years old that they finally said, dada, dada. Oh, son, I'm sorry. That's wrong. It's daddy. I mean, you would never do that.

Mick Spiers: 27:47

Yeah, I love that.

Gerald J. Leonard: 27:48

You would encourage that you're like, yes, he said Dada, you know, and then you'd call yourself data in front of him. Right? You wouldn't do it with your friends. But the point is, is that as they're trying, you will be encouraging them. And guess what, as they're listening to you talk Dada goes from Dada to dad or daddy, because how did they pick that up? They needed time. And sometimes we gotta give our people time to, you know, a friend of mine would say stumble forward. But if you're stumbling forward, you're always moving forward. You're not just falling down. You're stumbling forward. And it's okay to stumble for. You're still making progress.

Mick Spiers: 28:22

Yeah, I love it, Gerald. All right. So I want to get to symphony of choices. Tell me about this word choices when it comes to team and when it comes to productivity and everything we've been talking about.

Gerald J. Leonard: 28:33

So A Symphony of Choices is a business parable or business novel. And I wrote it because it's teaching a lot of the principles from a training course I developed about almost 10 years ago, and I developed the course on Project Portfolio Management right before I wrote my first book, because I wanted to take the exam. You know, in the project management world, you have, you know, the Project Management Institute, they are all over the world. And you have this PMP certification, which is kind of like the de facto license standard for project managers. I got mine back in 2005. And so at this point, I'm like, Okay, I have 10 years that I've been doing this, you have to have 10 years of experience to even sit for this exam. And there are very few resources to study the exam, but they had the guide that they put together for the materials. So I had just worked with a group where we develop some training courses. So I was really comfortable developing, like certified type training courses. So I use that to put this material together. Long story short, I felt like the content that I learned from this, if it's just an another project portfolio management book, very few people are going to pick it up and look at it, even though it's great information. Even the project manager guide has great information. But if it's a juicy engaging, you know, make you you know, turn page turner type story, and the lessons are experiential, and you're getting the information then that's really what a symphony choices is all about. And you know, I think I shared with this with you earlier, I was sitting on a plane recently, I taken a trip from Mobile, Alabama, up to Minneapolis during the summer, not during the winter, summer. And on my way back. I'm sitting up front and a lady comes sits next to me and she was dressed up like I guess kind of like a scout but someone like an officer and she was a ranger and worked in law enforcement. And so we talked a little bit she's so what do you do? I said, Well, I just wrote a book Just released Oh, really. So I had the cover of the book on my iPad, a selfie of choices. And she looked at it was just like, wow, that's really cool. And she saw that. And literally just before we took off, she grabbed her phone, she went on Amazon, she ordered the book. And as we're flying, she's reading the book. And so halfway through, she goes, Okay, I'm on chapter three, I gotta tell you. And so we started having this great conversation about the book. So the reason I wrote it was to give people practical insights into these concepts, but in a way that they could digest them, because people love stories. Everybody loves Ted laughs so if you if you know what that last Oh, is that story? You know, I looked at that story, I thought, Okay, I need to make my story as engaging as Ted LaSalle. And one of my favorite books, and I think this is a question you may ask me later, is a book called The Goal by Elliott, goal rat, on the theory of constraints. I'm also certified in the theory of constraints and spend some time with the Jacob up at the Gordon Institute. And again, it's a story that he took. And embedded in that story, are all the lessons around a theory of constraints and how to apply that in your real world. So it's called Project Based Learning. And I think it's a better way to teach very complex concepts. And that's why I wrote it that way. And I think the most important thing about a symphony of choices is I felt like I really was able to recruit amazing team of people to give me feedback to help me, you know, really think through the material so that when people get it in their hands, they can really digest it, be engaged with it, and walk away and have something that concretely they can go and put into practice right now.

Mick Spiers: 31:57

So let's unpack that a little bit. So first of all, congratulations on the success of all of your books. I think it's amazing. I love the unlocking the power of storytelling, because stories are things that do stick with us. And the lessons from that Ted last Oh, perfect example, my wife and I just binge watched the whole three seasons. And she wrote a LinkedIn Post this week. By the way, this will not make sense by the time this episode goes to air, but she wrote her LinkedIn Post this week of all of the leadership lessons that she took from Ted Lazar, but all wrapped in a story that we couldn't stop hitting the next episode. Next episode, next episode, right?

Gerald J. Leonard: 32:33

Exactly! It has you pumped in and you're digesting those stories consciously and unconsciously.

Mick Spiers: 32:39

Exactly, exactly. So what my question for you is here is from Symphony of Choices, what would be the one thing that you would want a leader to then you said, actionable, what's the one thing you'd want them to immediately go and stop and reflect and think and go and act on from Symphony of Choices?

Gerald J. Leonard: 32:58

I think the smartest thing that the gentleman Jerry Hall, who's the main character of the story did was when he realized that he was doing something new that he reflected and thought about a professor who had taught that material. And he went out and got a mentor and a coach. And, you know, I had the chance to meet Harvey Mackay. And this was probably around 2015 2016. He was about 80 years old at the time. And I think he's still around because I haven't heard of him passing. At that time. He probably had when we had a conversation, he probably had seven or eight coaches. This is a multimillionaire owner of a professional team, you know, multimillion dollar envelope business, and you know, a Wall Street Journal, New York Times best selling author, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he talked about his coaches, he talked about his stretch coach, his golf coach is, you know, writing coach, I'm thinking you have a writing coach. But it makes sense. Now, when you look at, you know, just how amazing he is and the things that he's done. And really, the book really emphasizes the importance of being coached and mentored irregardless of where you are in your career. I still have mentors and coaches who are far ahead of me have way more books than I have our programs and what they're doing that I meet with our masterminds and I get with on a regular basis. And it constantly feeds me with great ideas and constantly keeps me jazzed. It constantly allows me to be open to that feedback and sharpening my own saw so that as I'm leading my team, they're like, this guy's getting sharper and sharper and sharper, but also by having a mentor or a coach. There's a little humility in that because it says, I'm not there yet. And we all need that.

Mick Spiers: 34:39

Yeah, and I really good. And when you think about some of the most successful people in history, if you look behind, there'll be people that were coaching them, mentoring them being there for them, helping them see what they couldn't see all kinds of things helping them grow. Yeah, absolutely. Even down to outstanding you would say individual contributors like a tiger woods, or Roger Federer or Rafa Nadal, they all have coaches and then through to team sports. Chicago Bulls had an amazing coach. It's always there have someone there for on the side that's there, your support network, but also helping you see what you're not saying?

Gerald J. Leonard: 35:16

Exactly. You know, it's funny about this whole idea behind coaches and again, this is the reference of American football, the NFL, Netflix had a program on call quarterbacks and it looks Got three major quarterbacks from last year and Patrick mahomes. And Kirk Cousins was two of the guys on Mariano Rivera, I think was that might not be a whole name. But anyway, the idea was like what Patrick mahomes All of these like fancy throws that he makes, you know, we look at them and go like, Wow, that's amazing. How did he do that? Guess what he practices those things. He has a coach that works him out and works his body out in a way that he can stop on a dime and twist his body and throw the football like a baseball and get it clear across the field. When people without even looking he practices those things with a one of the best strength and kinesiology type coaches, you can find in literally he bought the guys practice out and moved him up to where he lives and says, you know, you're my coach. And so he understood the value that I need someone to really help me get to that next level, but I can't get to by myself. And I think that's one of the biggest lessons. But then also, I think another lesson in the book is life happens because you read the story. And again, Jerry Hall is the main character, he's going through some marital challenges. He has a teenage daughter, they're beginning to see eye to eye, but there's some rub there, his son adores him, but he's responsible for the kids. He has a pre Madonna of a conductor that he has to work with, because he uses the musical environment. And so he has all these different challenges. There are people that wanted the job that he got, and felt like why did he get the job and try to sabotage a little bit, the board didn't understand why the musicians need to be paid more. So we have all of that, guess what, that's life, none of our lives are a straight line. And it's multi-dimensional. And he had his own challenges. He had his own health challenges and other challenges. And he had some flaws, but through the whole process of being mentored and coached and just stumbling forward and learning as you go, he created a whole new career for himself became an even more successful musician, and the orchestra manager, as he you know, follow the advice of his mentor and coach.

Mick Spiers: 37:25

There's a theme that's coming through there, I'm gonna say, Gerald, and it comes back to something you said earlier about musicianship and knowing how to play a C, just naturally, it just comes to you know, you've practiced it 150,000 times. And when you're in the performance, the base skills are there. And if I think about Patrick mahomes, I think about the character in your book, they've worked on those base skills, but then it becomes adaptive when they get thrown into a situation, right. So the situation could be the conductor that's a bit difficult to deal with, or Patrick Mahoney, it could be he's about to get sacked. And the play doesn't go exactly as he pitched it in his head. But he's got the instinctive pneus and the base skills there to make the best of the situation in an adaptive way. So I think this adaptive element is also coming through loud and clear in what we've discussed today as well. All right, Gerald, this has been a wonderful conversation. I'd like to take us now to our rapid rounds. So these are the same four questions we ask all of our case, what's the one thing that you know now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Gerald J. Leonard: 38:27

Even more of the value of coaching and mentoring?

Mick Spiers: 38:31

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a nice takeaway for today. If you don't have a coach, if you don't have a mentor, have a think about this. Have a think about what value a coach and mentor could bring to your life today.

Gerald J. Leonard: 38:40

I'll put it to you this way. I often say mentoring having a mentor is like and I'm not sure how if they have this in Australia, or other parts of the world, but they have something called an HOV lane here where if traffic is all bogged up, and you're in a car by yourself, if you have somebody with you, you can get an HOV lane and you can get there much faster, right? That's like mentoring and coaching. It gives you the HOV access to the HOV lane and life and your career.

Mick Spiers: 39:04

So for Australia, I'll do the translation we do have them we just call them something else. So high occupancy vehicle lane in the US. In Australia, we call them T3 lanes. Like we have to have three people in the car or T2 lanes, etc. So high occupancy vehicle, you've got someone that can that can accelerate your life. I love it. All right, what's your favorite book?

Gerald J. Leonard: 39:23

One of my favorite books is called The Goal. I think I mentioned it earlier. But Elliott goal read, and it's the story. It's a business novel. And it's a story of Alex who has to deal with supply chain. And he has learned and he's basically mentored by a physicist on this concept called the Theory of Constraints. And it radically turns his business around and his life.

Mick Spiers: 39:43

Yeah, you did mention that one before as very interesting and interesting also, in terms of where you went with Symphony of Choices as well, their business novel Very good.

Gerald J. Leonard: 39:52

When you find a model that works.

Mick Spiers: 39:55

Oh yeah, There you. All right, What's your favorite quiet?

Gerald J. Leonard: 39:59

There's a gentleman here that I got to know in that states in the DC area, Washington, DC area, his name was Willie Jolly. He's one of the probably top speakers in the world. And he would say if you're in the picture, you can't see the frame. If you're in the picture. In other words, it goes back to you know, I need people in my life to help me see myself because I'm in the picture. I can't see the frame. It's impossible.

Mick Spiers: 40:22

I'm gonna take two things from that, Gerald. One is exactly that is we spoke about coaches and mentors, they can help you see what you're not seeing. I'm also going to say sometimes you need to take a step back and look back at the situation that you've been in and see the frame yourself and help others. Right. So I think there's two, at least two lessons there. That's a really good one.

Gerald J. Leonard: 40:40

Or get a good mirror.

Mick Spiers: 40:43

All right, very good. Finally, there's going to be people that are really enthralled by this, they probably interested in your business novel, symphony of choices in all of your other books as well. Also probably interested in the productivity Institute and everything that we've been talking about how do people find you?

Gerald J. Leonard: 41:00

So they go to the productivityintelligenceinstitute.com. But if you go forward slash TLP, The Leadership Project that will take you to a landing page just for these listeners, just for you who are listening, and there's some freebies I have on there, there's a couple of guides I have on there that are PDF worksheets that are really helped me with thinking through Project Management. One has like the six things that I've learned over my 25 plus years of leading major projects with large federal, state and multinational organizations that if you don't have these things in your life, or in your projects, they don't work. But if you have them, even if you're skidding around on other areas, those six things will save you. I also have something called every one as a project manager. And it really teaches you those things, and then a weekly evaluation worksheet, so you can kind of evaluate your own productivity as well. And if you want to have a call with me, there's a link there, as well as my email or connect with me on LinkedIn. And then information about the book as well.

Mick Spiers: 41:57

I love it. Gerald, on behalf of the audience, thank you so much for putting that together. It's greatly appreciated. I encourage everyone to go to that link. We'll put the link in the show notes so that you can find these wonderful materials that Gerald has given up for you today. So thank you, Gerald, for a wonderful conversation. I've loved this journey. It's been a musical journey, as well as a learning journey. And I've loved that conversation. I know the audience will as well thank you for your time today.

Gerald J. Leonard: 42:21

Well, Mick, thank you so much for having me and I'm really happy we had a chance to get together and have this conversation.