157. Be a Leader of Significance with Mosongo Moukwa

💭 What does it mean to be a Leader of Significance?

Mosongo Moukwa shares his inspirational story that took him from the jungles of the Congo to the boardrooms of North America which led him to become a best-selling author of the book, “Be a Leader of Significance”.

In this episode, Mosongo talks about how impactful leadership can steer company culture towards a haven of energy and productivity.  He also emphasizes the significance of resilience and mutual support in navigating any collaborative venture.

🎧 Download this episode for a deep dive into the heart of leadership and the pursuit of a legacy that transcends so you could be a leader of significance.

Time Code:
0:00 Introduction
0:27 Leadership Journey Towards Significance
7:06 Why Growth and Comfort Does Not Coexist
11:20 Tips for Leaders Struggling with Human Connection
18:06 Creating Positive Team Experiences
25:12 Creating Impactful Leadership Through Development
36:17 Leadership of Significance Conversation

🌐 Connect with Mosongo:
• Website: https://www.mosongomoukwa.com/ or http://leadershipofsignificance.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mosongomoukwa/

📚 You can purchase Mosongo's book at Amazon:
• Be a Leader of Significance: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CB9GLPJB/

Books Mentioned:
The Second Mountain book by David Brooks
Thinking, Fast and Slow book by Daniel Kahneman

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:27

For today's episode of the Leadership Project, I share with you a conversation I recently had with Masongo Mokwa. Mosongo shares his inspirational story that took him from the jungles of the Congo to the boardrooms of North America and to become a best-selling author.

Mick Spiers: 0:47

Along the way, he shares his leadership journey, his leadership lessons and what it means to be a leader of significance. Sit back and enjoy the show. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Masongo Mukwa. Mosongo has had executive level leadership roles in innovation in some of the world's biggest companies SC Johnson and now president at Hathaway Advanced Materials and he's passionate about leadership to the point where he's also the best-selling author of a book called Become a Leader of Significance, and that's what we're going to talk about today. What does it mean to be a leader of significance? What does it mean to leave a legacy? What does it mean to have impact? So I'm dying to get into this conversation today to pick Mosongo's brain about what those three terms mean. So, without any further ado, Mosongo, I'd love it if you would please say hello to our audience and I'd love to know a bit about that background of yours, that very successful career, and what inspired you to write the book.

Mosongo Moukwa: 2:00

Yes, thank you, mick, for participating on your show and thank you for the introduction. So I've been involved for more than 30 years in senior leadership position with global companies in the chemical and material industry. I was fortunate to be given an assignment that put me in a position where my transformational leadership style was impactful not only on the growth of the company but also on the growth of people. So, in addition to professional pursuit, I call myself a global citizen, having lived in a number of countries. I was born in the Congo, we lived in Belgium, canada and obviously now in the United States. We spent a few years in India. In addition to that, I was privileged to manage a number of global teams based in Brazil, mexico, austria, the Netherlands, belgium and India, netherlands, belgium and India. And your listener might not know, but I'm also an Advid adventurer, if you can say so, because I've crossed the Arctic Circle and I'm a member of the polar bear chapter of the Order of Arctic.

Mick Spiers: 3:25

Adventurer, that's a Canadian recognition there. Wow, you've been on a hell of a journey there. You've been all around the world, including places that people have never been to.

Mosongo Moukwa: 3:35

Yeah, it's cold. It's cold up there, Sorry back to you. Minus 70, minus 80.

Mick Spiers: 3:39

Yeah, I can imagine All right. So tell us, how does that all transform into your I'm going to say your passion for leadership and writing the book?

Mosongo Moukwa: 3:53

I came to this leadership, I would say, by accident. So I just finished my PhD and was working as a researcher at Northwestern University in Illinois, near Chicago, and so after a couple of years then I took a position. I took a role with a specialty chemical firm. So I was extremely excited to be part of the research and development division and I was really looking forward to develop new products, to develop intellectual properties and so on. But not long after I started, the vice president of R&D he called me and he told me that we are going to make you a manager. We would like for you to help us build a research group from scratch. So at that time they did not have a research group, while your peers and so on they think you'll be the best candidate and so on.

Mosongo Moukwa: 4:49

So I'd never managed people before at that time and I was somewhat caught off guard by this announcement. So I replied to him. I said well, I'm not really sure if I'm ready for this. I've never managed people. And then he said don't worry, you'll be all right. Then I told him well, if things do not work out, really I'm going to come back to you and you know, I'd like to ask you to send me back to the lab.

Mosongo Moukwa: 5:14

So suddenly I was a brand new manager with no management experience and I have to figure out things, actually out. So that's really how my career began. So a few people along the way filled in various gaps, but I was more or less on my own. One year led to two years to three and eventually this developed into a long and very interesting career. So from there I had the opportunity as a senior lawyer at SC Johnson, reichhold and at the global organization and throughout everything.

Mosongo Moukwa: 5:54

I've never regretted being in a leadership role. So that's how I came into the leadership. But, mick, what really crystallized for me and hopefully for your listener, is the thought that growth and comfort would never coexist. If you want to grow, you have to be put somewhat in that discomfort, if you will. I think if we close our eyes and we reflect, we will see that most things you know that the most in in life it will be at the time where we're really in a risky and perhaps in certain situation. So so that really crystallized for me. And from there I've taken somewhat of risky changes in different jobs. Some were difficult, but then I realized that if one puts himself in those circumstances, even though it may not feel right on the inside, but one can actually could learn a lot. So that's really how I came into the leadership role, mick.

Mick Spiers: 7:06

All right, thank you, miss Ongo, and getting thrown in like that is actually quite a common story. I want to talk more about that comfort zone that you speak of. So comfort and growth don't coexist. I love that. That's our first takeaway today. I would say that great things happen just the other side of your comfort zone and you need to take that proactive. If you're sitting in your comfort zone, you're either going to stagnate or even go backwards, and you need to take an intentional step out of your comfort zone for growth to happen. How did you do that? So how did you decide that I need to do something here, how I need to step out of my comfort zone?

Mosongo Moukwa: 7:49

Talk us through your thought process. I think first you have, when you're in that discomfort situation you might be going through, perhaps, frustration, you might be going through some fear. When you consciously step out of that space, that's when now you're beginning to learn. That's when now you're beginning to learn, that's when you actually feel like a dose of energy. And I felt extremely energized from the time when I decided to step out of that fear zone. Then I became me. I became me and it was almost like an opportunity for me to be myself and now to build an organization.

Mick Spiers: 8:31

This relationship with fear is really interesting, because fear can really hold us back. In fact, it can lead us to freeze. And what I'm hearing from you is that step out of fear is what energized you by embracing the fear Instead of shielding the fear. Embracing the fear energized you to move forward. You've had a great and successful career. I think you're downplaying it. I've got to say, masongo, you're going from a situation where you got asked to take your first managerial role and you had your doubts and your question marks going oh you know, are you sure I'm not ready, and all of these things through to 30 years later, being a president of a company, right? So you've had a great, successful career. Tell us, if you were to codify it, what were the things that made you successful to go from first-time manager to president.

Mosongo Moukwa: 9:23

There are certainly a number of things, mick, but what I've learned is that leadership is a journey. It's a journey of growth and development. So it's really about learning, adapting and then owning your skills over time. But the one element that I've learned is that a big part of leadership is really based on that human connection. So as a leader, you want to impact people's heart and mind, but it really is about building relationship and expanding quality of those relationships so that you can make a lasting difference. So human connection is really what will determine how significant if I can use that word that leadership will be, because that's when you put people in a position where actually the creativity and energy could be unleashed. So that human connection is something that really is the overriding element there. You know, if you want to be an effective leader, engage, develop your team members and then build from there.

Mick Spiers: 10:40

So human connection absolutely critical. I fully agree with you there, and leadership is all about how we relate to other human beings, if I can put it in your industry's sense, and you're a very innovative leader who's led a lot of research and development and innovation. At the core of it, it's humans that do that innovation and it's our ability to inspire them and to nurture them, to create the environment where they can be innovative. So I'm really enjoying this human connection. How did you go about that? Do you have any tips for leaders out there that might be struggling with human connection? What tips could you have to get started?

Mosongo Moukwa: 11:24

You have to engage people. So how do you do that? I think engaging people, it comes from leaders making that effort to understand people, to understand them at the deeper level Rather than just saying hello. Get to know people a bit more, so to speak. So you want to know about their joy, you want to know about their experiences, things that give them energy at the end of the day, because what people are looking for is that sense of belonging. That's number one.

Mosongo Moukwa: 12:03

I remember this scientist who was working with me early in my career. Great scientist was always excited about chemistry. When you're talking to him you can see his eyes lit up and so on. And then one day I asked him I said what is it here that you like about this place? Then in my mind I was expecting would say oh, great chemistry, we have great projects, we develop a product X, y, z and so on. No, what he told me, is that. No, what I like in this place is that during lunchtime I can play ping pong. I can play ping pong with Steve, with Mike, we get to meet each other and then exchange our thoughts and so on. So there was that sense of affiliation there, which was important.

Mosongo Moukwa: 12:52

The second thing that is required is that you need to create that psychological safety. And for that I remember there was this employee. She was part of the marketing department and then she got transferred into my group and she was telling me that when she was working there in the beginning in that marketing group, her boss if we can call it that way, her manager would come and then say, oh, how great of a job she was doing. You know, I like your plans, and so on. And then over time she began to hear rumors that the manager did not think much of her work and so on and so on. But the manager came and spoke to her and then she also never went to ask the manager hey, what's going on? Why am I no longer in some of those meetings? So I did ask her that question and what she told me is that she did not feel safe to even go and ask that question why am I no longer in those meetings? And she told me in a quote I was at the end of the day, I was invisible. So one needs to create that psychological safety there, which means that people need to interact with others rather than people try to guess or nothing be included, and so on.

Mosongo Moukwa: 14:15

And then the final thing, I think, is people would like to be valued, and I remember this manager. A few years ago I was passing in the corridor and I told him. I said hey, steve, I haven't seen you for a long time, but don't worry, I've not forgotten about you. I just made that comment, and so on. And then a year later, he told me that that comment just struck a chord with him. By making that statement, he felt that he was now, he was being seen by me. He felt valued. So these are some of the things that people are yearning for. So you, as a leader, you need to create that environment. You are the de facto energizer in chief, so you have to take the lead to create that context. At the end of the day, when you put emotional connection at the foundation, then you're beginning to discover what people are really capable of doing. You create that foundation of confidence that could lead to new and exciting things. You motivate others to achieve something that matters to them and to the company as a whole.

Mick Spiers: 15:37

Love this term energizer-in-chief. That's a great term. I'm going to remember that one. It's really cool.

Mick Spiers: 15:44

So the things I'm hearing there engaging them, understanding what they like, what they dislike and it might be something unusual, might not be what you think Ping-pong could be the answer Really love that story as well, that they want to feel that they belong. They want to feel like they belong in the workplace and they belong to something bigger than themselves. They want to feel psychological safety and the ability to speak up and they want to feel seen, they want to feel heard and when they feel like they matter and the funny thing that happens when people feel like they matter, Masongo is they do they do things that matter. When they feel like they matter, Masongo is they do they do things that matter when they feel like they matter. So, absolutely wonderful. You and I are very aligned in what it takes to create an amazing environment and an amazing culture where people can do their very best work. I want to get now to some of the terms in your book. What does it mean to be a leader of significance?

Mosongo Moukwa: 16:34

To be a leader of significance is really let me start it this way what I've realized which actually prompted me to write this book, partly anyway is that when I meet employees or managers who work with me over the years, when I meet them and we are talking, we never discuss some of the great products that we introduce, that the company made money on this or the revenue was so, and so they, most of the time, relate to me the experience that they went through while developing those products, as though if they were able to relieve some of those experiences 10 times more, they would be ready to do so.

Mosongo Moukwa: 17:24

So leadership of significance is not really about the dollar, the money we can get and so on. I mean, employees don't get excited when you tell them, hey, we're going to increase the share price and multiply it by 10. The employee gets excited when they take bigger goals, when they innovate. So leadership of significance is really about touching them, touching their heart as well as their mind. So to have them have those moments of significance that really touches them, that they would like to relieve. So that's really what I'm striving for.

Mick Spiers: 18:02

I like this term experience and I like this term moments of significance. And let me play back what I'm taking from that, masongo. So people do remember this stuff, right? So think about Maya Angelou. And people may forget what you did, they may forget what you said, but they'll never forget how you made them feel.

Mick Spiers: 18:20

And I sometimes get asked what does it feel like to be part of a high-performance team? And the word exhilaration always comes to my mind. There's something, there's a feeling about it. It's not just about the achievement and the success, it's the journey and the feeling along the way, that feeling of exhilaration. And then if you put the reverse on that and go, well, what does it feel like to be in a toxic environment? It feels awful, it feels terrible. You don't want to be there, right? So the high performance team, exhilaration, toxic environment the exact opposite. But then another funny thing that happens in these team environments Masongo once again with this word experience if you go through tough times and the team bond together, become stronger and then still get through those tough times together, the shared experience of going through that is also quite bonding and joyful in the end, even though it might've been tough times along the way.

Mick Spiers: 19:27

So this word experience I'm going to throw that to the audience. And when you were thinking about your environment right now, what experience are you creating for people? Is it exhilaration, is it toxicity, or is it yeah? Okay, we're in tough times, but we're in it together and we're going to come out the other end stronger than when we started. How does that reflection sit with you about this word experience? Playing it back to you, masonga.

Mosongo Moukwa: 19:54

Very much so. I just remember one story here, if I could share it. A few years ago I worked for a company owned by a Japanese conglomerate and the idea was for us to bring, to transfer, some technology from Japan to the United States, because the company wanted to go into digital printing and we did not have the technology. And then I sent one technical fellow there to go to Japan and learn that technology, bring it to United States so that in fact we can introduce it and then help us in market share, which he did Now when he came back after having spent six months in Japan. So when he came back he said that and asked him to reflect upon his experience. And what he shared with me was that he did not plan really to have that type of experience Because when he came back, brought the technology, he actually mastered the technology. So he became like the teacher teaching all of us, including manufacturing and marketing and so on.

Mosongo Moukwa: 21:08

And then, as I was talking to him and then him reflecting, he said he did not really plan to have that experience. So he said it was not the result of his goals, but once he became aware of what went on he liked it. So in the beginning he was a bit reluctant, but as he was working there he began to like it more and more. And then that going through that experience living in a foreign country, learning there along the way developed great friendship with his colleagues, the Japanese there up to today, as a matter of fact. So that experience resonated with him with some of the previous things that he did. A few years back, when I sent him there, he was feeling almost like bored with whatever he was doing. So that experience resonated because he could see what he experienced even in the past. So he was reliving that in some sense. So that's why I fully agree with you there. In this case the experience was something good, something worth seeking out again actually.

Mick Spiers: 22:20

Yeah, really interesting there. The reframing is the word that is popping to my mind now. Masongo, if you get thrown into these environments something that you, let's say, you didn't ask for, how do you embrace that? Do you decide, well, I didn't ask for this, so you have a negative frame. Or do you look at it and go, okay, well, I didn't ask for it. But what do I make the most of this? How do I learn? How do I grow? I'm out of my comfort zone. Coming back to our comfort zone before Masongo, do I embrace this positively and make the most of the situation that I didn't ask for, or do I complain about it and go into a negative spiral? So part of it is mindset and reframing. How does that sit with you?

Mosongo Moukwa: 23:05

Yes, yes, yes, yes, very much. So I think he put himself into that position because in the beginning he was a bit reluctant in taking that position because going to Japan is far away. I'm going to be away from the family. So we dealt with some of those things. I told him listen, you can come home here every three months and we can arrange for your wife to go to Japan regularly if you wish, and I myself I'll be coming there every three months as well to provide you with the support, and so on. So I gave him a couple of days to think about it, talk it over and then, when you're ready, come back, and then we can discuss. So he came back, he said I think I would like to do it, and then he went on. He went on.

Mick Spiers: 23:48

There we go. All right, brilliant, Masunga. I want to come back to this word experience one more time and then we'll go on to our next topic. So the other thing that's been popping into my mind here is thinking about this in your environment right now, and this word toxicity versus exhilaration and there can be a spectrum in between, of course, but you know, teams do go through tough times and the difference is the environment, it is the culture, and in a toxic culture, the experience is going to be one where the teams attack each other.

Mick Spiers: 24:23

Right, that's the toxicity. It's almost like a cancer within the organization of yes, you've got outside forces that you might not be able to control, but what happens is the team start attacking each other, Whereas the opposite experience is you support each other, Even through opposite experience is you support each other Even through tough times. You prop each other up, you promote each other, you're there for each other and you come out the other end stronger because you did that. So to me, that's the ingredients of experience. Is it a supportive, inclusive experience, where people feel like they belong, or is it a toxic experience, where everyone's worried every day about whether other people are going to take potshots at each other. So toxicity exhilaration spectrum in between, but it all comes down to human beings and how we connect with each other. Back to what you started with Massonga. How does that sit with you?

Mosongo Moukwa: 25:16

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, as you put it well, you have that spectrum of a culture. You have the healthy and you have the extreme, you have the unhealthy one, but I think the healthiest culture, if you will, is the one that is full of energy and productivity, whereas the unhealthy one will produce unmotivated or demotivated employees. So the healthy culture you find good, health, well-being will flourish, and you're absolutely right. Now I'll venture to say that the business leader must take responsibility for that culture, build-up and champion it. So the owners is really wanting the leader to create and champion that culture, build up and champion it. So the owners is really wanting the leader to create and champion that culture.

Mick Spiers: 26:03

Yeah, brilliant, all right now. Coming back to your book for another moment. Now you also talk about impact. What does it mean to be a leader of impact?

Mosongo Moukwa: 26:14

The leader of impact, as I mentioned before, is obviously those experiences. But there are two things. One is that you have to enable others by developing them and also by creating opportunity. So obviously, as leaders, we are motivated by the desire to live an organization better than we found it. Some of our greatest achievement is really the success of those that we serve and the knowledge that we made a difference. So developing others, that's certainly one way there. So you create those opportunities for people Developing others.

Mosongo Moukwa: 27:03

Obviously, this could be somewhat of a tricky and complex situation, because developing others is really a journey of exploration which may be punctuated with moment of discovery, and people can develop if they want to. So they have to be participant there. While on that journey, they must maintain that growth mindset. Us, as a leader, we have to continue to reinforce that belief in themselves, which means for us to delegate authority autonomy so that they could develop and feel that confidence.

Mosongo Moukwa: 27:54

The other one is also that leadership is not a solo venture. Leadership is not a solo venture. Leadership is not a solo venture. It's not how far we progress, but it's really how far we help other progress. That's really what it is here. So the key to building legacy is developing other leaders. Frankly, that's how you can scale the impact. You can scale because now you have, rather than you being alone, now you have 100 people out there, more or less with the same vision, and that's how you can make much greater impact. So you multiply your creativity, you multiply talents that way. So that's also one other element there of impact make.

Mick Spiers: 28:40

There's multiple things I'm taking away there, masongo. So, first of all, I love this thing. Am I leaving the organization better than the way I found it? I think that's wonderful.

Mick Spiers: 28:53

Impact comes through other human beings and a good leader leads people. A great leader leads leaders. They create more leaders and the impact comes through. That multiplication effect is what I'm hearing here, masongo, by developing people and giving them opportunities through that journey of discovery. It won't go right every day, so you'll mistakes, but you'll also adapt and you'll learn and you'll grow together. Then you've got this multiplication of impact, because now you've got multiple people that are out there trying to capitalize on these opportunities. You, as a human being, you've only got 24 hours in a day, but you can't bend time and space. We've tried. You can't bend time and space yet, so you've only got 24 hours in the day. But if you've developed your people and given them the opportunities to be impactful, well, now there's more of you. Now there's more of you. Famous African proverb if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And impact and legacy is about going together. How does that sit with?

Mosongo Moukwa: 30:00

you yeah, yeah, yeah very much. You capture it very well.

Mick Spiers: 30:05

All right, Masonga, this has been really interesting. Really thinking about this word significance, how we leave a legacy, how we leave impact, and everything came back to how we relate to other human beings, how we connect with them, how we make them feel heard, how we made them feel seen, how we make them feel that they matter and that they belong, and then creating this environment where we are developing our people and we're giving them their opportunities to go and make an impact on the world. Absolutely love it, Masonga. It's been a really interesting conversation. I'd love to now take us to our final round. So these are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. So, first of all, what's the one thing you know now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Mosongo Moukwa: 30:51

We live in the United States, so in this country you don't have that safety net that you'll find, for example, in Europe, and I lived in Europe for many years. So some of the things that I took for granted then financially, it turned out that actually I should have been more astute. So, for example, in the area of retirement here you have to start planning from your retirement at a younger age. You have to invest there and there and so on. You cannot count on the government there. That parachute is just not there. I wish I knew that then, although I caught up with it. But sometimes I say, hmm, man, I wish I knew that then. Then probably my situation would have been less stressful. It's no longer now, but those days I was just wondering hey, how can I make it out here? You know.

Mick Spiers: 31:49

Okay, that's a good one for all of us. Masongo, make sure that we're thinking of that. That's a very good one. All right, what's your favorite book?

Mosongo Moukwa: 31:58

Actually, there are two books here that I want to share with your listener. One is a book by David Brooks, which is called the Second Mountain. It's a book that came out in 2019. It's exploring the concept of meaningful and purposeful life. So, as we are climbing, as we are growing in our own career and so on, we're climbing that mountain and then when you reach the top, then now we're asking ourselves is this really what we wanted to do? Are we fulfilled? In other words, so for some people perhaps, but for others perhaps not. Then you have to go through now, through the valley, and then go through the second mountain. It's a big book, so it's going to take one patience to read it, maybe a chapter at a time, but that's a book I would recommend to your listeners.

Mick Spiers: 33:01

Okay, and the second one.

Mosongo Moukwa: 33:03

Yeah, the second one is a book I read Actually I have it on my shelf here, but I read it long ago, which I still think is relevant now. It's a book by Kenerman which is Thinking Fast and Slow. It's a book that explores biases that affect decision-making and judgment, often leading to cognitive error. I think this is a book certainly those in leadership roles they should read. It helps bring that self-awareness.

Mick Spiers: 33:38

I like both those suggestions, masongo. And thinking fast, thinking slow is something that is a very intentional act and you need to do that deliberately. The second mountain concept I like that a lot. A lot of people find themselves attaching their identity towards achievements that once they achieve them, they go oh okay, that didn't actually fill the void, it didn't fill my heart with joy and fulfillment. And that realization of stopping and once again intentionally taking a stock, take of, well, what does bring me joy and fulfillment, and it's usually not the superficial things, it's something deeper and it often comes back to other human beings, human connection again. All right, interesting. What's your favorite quote, masonga?

Mosongo Moukwa: 34:27

Yeah, my favorite quote is one by perhaps some of your people, a book by Aaron Appelfeld, Adam and Thomas. The quote that I like is this one here. I actually wrote it down because I keep it around my desk here. It says this when you meet someone, it is a sign that your paths were meant to cross. It is a sign that you are going to receive something from him. You should not ignore these meetings, because every person has something to reveal to you. I like very much that quote because in our personal life or professional, we come across people, huh, and when we think a little bit, actually many of those people they're like angels. I mean, they're coming there, you know, but we have to see that those people, they're probably revealing to us something.

Mick Spiers: 35:28

I like that as well, masonga, and the thing that I'm wondering about that is are we paying attention? Are we paying attention? So, when these people come into our is, are we paying attention? Are we paying attention? So, when these people come into our lives, are we paying attention and are we getting curious about why did this person come into my life right now, and what is it trying to teach me? Show me? Is it an opportunity, is it a lesson? Why is this person coming to my life right now? That's really interesting. I like that a lot. And finally, masongo Mukwa, how do people find you? If people would like to know more about your book, more about you personally, how do people connect with you?

Mosongo Moukwa: 36:03

To connect me is. I'm in linkedin Mosongo Moukwa, so I could be contacted there. I could also be reached through my website, mosongom oukwa all in one word dot com. My book Be a Leader of Significance. You can find it on my website. It is also on Amazon or you can look at leadershipofsignificance(dot)com. That will also take you there. The book is paperback hardcover, but many of you guys who like Kindle or Audible you can also find it there. The book is paperback hardcover, but many of you guys who like Kindle or Audible you can also find it there.

Mick Spiers: 36:40

Brilliant Mosongo. Thank you so much. Congratulations on your success as a leader and the legacy and impact that you've had on the people that you have led and on the world. Congratulations on your success and thank you for sharing your wisdom and insights with us today.

Mosongo Moukwa: 36:57

No, thank you, Mick. It's been great, first of all, being part of your show. I enjoyed the conversation very much. It's been an honour, thank you.

Mick Spiers: 37:09

I hope you've enjoyed today's interview with Mosongo Moukwa. Next week we're joined by Wendy H Steele. Wendy is the founder of an organization called Impact 100 that inspires and empowers women to have impact in the world and to create impactful communities around them. Tune in next week to hear Wendy's inspirational story.