265. The Inner Game of Culture: Leadership Lessons Uncovered with Margaret Graziano

What if the workplace friction you face daily isn’t just “how things are” but something you can change? In this eye-opening conversation, Margaret Graziano—bestselling author of Ignite Culture—shares how most dysfunction at work is created, not inevitable. Drawing from decades of experience and research in neuroscience and organizational development, Margie empowers us to stop pointing fingers and start looking within.

Science shows that 75% of employees experience high stress, much of it due to interpersonal conflict. When triggered, our brain’s executive function shuts down, leading to poor decisions. Margie introduces a powerful formula—Performance = Potential - Interference—revealing that removing emotional and relational blockers is just as important as building skills or talent.

This episode delivers practical tools like the SCULPT method to shift from reaction to response and strategies for team alignment. Whether you're a leader or team member, Margie’s insights offer a roadmap to building healthy, high-performing cultures—starting with one powerful question: What role am I playing in the problems I see?

🌐 Connect with Margaret:
• Website: https://www.keenalignment.com/ & https://www.margaretgraziano.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaretgraziano/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magigrazi/
• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@magigrazi/

📚 You can purchase 's book on Amazon:
• Ignite Culture: https://www.amazon.com/dp/164704619X/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Ignite Culture
• 3:48 Inside-Out Leadership Philosophy
• 8:50 Understanding Workplace Friction
• 17:30 Neuroscience of Workplace Conflict
• 27:30 Self-Awareness and Emotional Intelligence
• 36:20 Moving from Reaction to Response
• 42:20 Creating Alignment in Organizations
• 48:40 Key Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

If culture is just the way we do things around here, what happens when that way no longer serves us, or worse, burns us out? In today's episode, I'm joined by Margie Graziano, Best Selling Author of Ignite culture, a passionate advocate for conscious leadership and a seasoned expert who has helped place over 10,000 professionals in organizations around the world, we dive deep into what it really takes to build a high performance culture from the inside out, you'll hear how intentional leadership, values, aligned hiring and emotionally intelligent communication can transform not only your team, but your entire organization. Margie shares powerful insights from neuroscience, behavioral analytics and real world consulting that will help you spark the change your culture needs. So grab a pen, because you're going to want to take notes on this one, let's dive in. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Margie Graziano. Margie has had an interesting career, moving from a working mother all the way through to leading one of the world's fastest growing consultancy companies and becoming the best selling author of a book called Ignite culture, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about culture and the culture of high performance teams. So I'm really dying to get into this content. So Margie, without any further ado, I'd love to hear from you tell us a bit about your background and what inspired you to do the work that you do with companies today, and what inspired you to write this book about igniting culture?

Margaret Graziano: 1:48

Yeah, so my background is I've spent over 20 years in the search recruiting and search field so placing over 10,000 people in full time and contract positions. So I learned firsthand why people take jobs, why people leave jobs, and why people stay and why people get promoted. And through my journey, super curious, highly theoretical, I went to back to school for organizational development. I went back to school for executive coaching. I went back to school for behavioral analytics and psychometric assessment, and in the rendition of my career right now, I have taken everything I learned from all of those and I work with organizations on how to lead healthy, intentional and high performance organizations from the inside out. So it begins with the leader, which is where the coaching comes in, then the leadership team, and then everybody they impact.

Mick Spiers: 2:59

You really good, Margie there's a few things already I love, you know, these, these words, intentional, the impactful, the high performance from the inside out. And I definitely want to unpack that. I'm curious about your research that you're talking about at the start there. We talk about this a lot in the world. You know, why do people leave companies? Why do they stay? Why do they leave? Curious to know what you found?

Margaret Graziano: 3:21

Yeah, so used to be we would hear, oh, people don't leave companies. They leave bosses. And I think that's partially true what I have seen, and it's why I moved into the organ and was curious about the organizational development and organizational performance. There's a lot of friction in companies. I mean, so much friction, it's mind blowing, and so much money wasting as a result of that friction. So right now, Gallup did a survey, and 75% of the people working in organizations say that they experience stress over 50% of their workday, and 30% of that stress is due to interpersonal conflicts. So it'll give you a little bit of research on that. And what I see when, when companies call us and we go in, the first thing we'll do is data collection, because that is what all professional organizational development, people learn to do. The first thing you wanna do is collect data. And so in our personal interviews and in our group interviews, I'll show them the chart of the seven levels of effectiveness. The lowest level is hopelessness. The highest level is synchronicity, and then there's fear, and then there's frustration, and then there's courage, and then there's engagement, and then there's innovation, and then there's synchronicity. Most people in most companies tell me that they spend 40 to 50% of their time straddling frustration and anxiety. If you know. Anything about brain science, about neuroscience, even 101, which I don't know these days in the coaching school, if they're if you have to sign up extra for that, like with be above leadership, with Anne and Ursula, or if the coaching schools are dealing with this, but if your brain is operating in aggravation, you can't think straight. You get like this haze because your amygdala has taken your prefrontal cortex hostage because it thinks you're in danger. The same thing if you're operating in anxiety, you can't access your prefrontal cortex, which is the seat of your executive brain, which is your critical thinker, you can't access so you freeze, or you forget, or you just spin a lot of wheels. It's that downward spiral. And what I want to say about that is, in the beginning, most people in most organizations will say it's them, it's leadership, it's sales, it's operations, it's this one, that one, but through the work we do with them, they realize that there's three other fingers pointing back at them, which is the self piece. Which is why we say transformation from the inside out, because if I'm part of a triad or a quad or a group of seven or eight, I am 1/8, 1/7, 1/3, one, half of the problem always, it's never one person. And back in the days of recruiting, when they would say people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. And everybody believes that and says it's true, actually, what people leave is their own discomfort. Sometimes it's housed as a bad manager. Sometimes it's perceived as no strategy in the company. Sometimes it's perceived as screwed up culture. I'm out of here, but when the same person leaves job after job after job after job and is always blaming all those jobs. You gotta look at who am I and what am I bringing or perceiving in every place I work. I've met maybe one or two companies that are truly toxic. The rest of them have just lost their way. And I know there are companies out there that are truly toxic. And I also know the rest of them just lost their way, and they just don't know how as the company scales, how to deal with all these personality conflicts and weird stuff, or they don't know how to scale the architecture to support the environment, to fulfill the ultimate intent of the organization. So it's a long way to answer that question.

Mick Spiers: 7:44

It's really powerful Margie, and there's lots of nuggets of gold in there, so I'm going to unpack a few of them. So first of all, the one common denominator in every relationship breakout down that I've been in has been me, right? So there's a certain truthiness to what you're saying. There you are, that common denominator and this thing, it's always them, a bit of a victim mindset. It wasn't me, it was them. And I'm going to reframe that and say It's always us. You've played a role, but so has your environment and and what has happened around you, and that friction that you mentioned, is a huge part of it. So part of it is the personal relationships. And I'll share a view here with you, that when people go home from work at the end of the day and they've had a very bad day, it's usually something to do with a personal relationship. It's usually you're not going to believe what this person did to me, and not thinking about the full circle that you're part of that as well. It's not a spreadsheet. It's not the craft of doing the job. It's the interpersonal relationships. Quite often it is the boss, Margie, but it doesn't have to be the boss. It can be co workers and other things. And the other part is the friction, the frustration, the bureaucracy, the friction that you speak about, if I can't do my job because I haven't been empowered, I haven't been enabled, or there was some kind of bureaucratic hurdle in my way. I also go home frustrated. How does that sit with you?

Margaret Graziano: 9:09

Yeah, so there's, there's so much about what you said, too. So first and foremost, if you haven't read Michael Brown presence, it's a great book, and Michael and Joe Dispenza, who breaking the habit of being you. Margaret, Paul, I mean all these wonderful authors and teachers and Bruce Lipton, The Biology of Belief will are starting to point to 85 or more percent of our life is spent in reflection or projection. So even if I hate my boss, my boss reminds me of somebody from my past. The boss is never just brand new. I'm 45 years old, and I hate my boss. The boss is a reflection of somebody from my past who did me. Wrong or I perceived he did me wrong. And when the boss opens his mouth, no matter what he says, because he's a reflection, or she's a reflection of the past, I'm now projecting my thinking, my perceiving on that guy or gal. So they just can't win. So if you are willing to accept that, which at 20 a lot of us are unwilling, even at 30, but around 45 you start to get that wherever you go, there you are, and you start to take responsibility, hopefully, for your impact, which going to school and learning coaching really allows that reflection time. You actually have to do it to be a good coach. But even if you're a leader like you and your podcast, Mick, you know, leaders need to reflect. So a percentage of my bad boss is, what am I reflecting and what am I projecting, which Michael Brown does a great job of explaining Bruce Lipton and Joe Dispenza. Now, sometimes we did get a bad boss, but why do we stay Why do we keep dealing with it? Or what are we doing to perpetuate the issue? I'm coaching someone right now who works for the most difficult person in the company. He also holds the largest fund in the company. It's a private equity company, and the guy manages the most amount of money, like multiple billions, and he's a type A and his needs are not being met, and so he's kind of a jerk at work. And I said to the guy I'm coaching, who is the guy who reports to him, Have you ever asked him what keeps him up at night, or what sets him off, or what puts him in a pissy mood? And he said no, because I know. And I said, Well, I'll tell you what, when you start engaging with him as a peer, you'll start to know how to be on the better side of his mood, because from what I know of, Type A's is when they're on a mission to go get something done, and they're thwarted, they get nasty, they get mean, they get short with people, they're impatient, they're crabby. And it's not just, you know, the type a there's a lot of different personality types at work that get triggered, that cause aggressive, defensive behavior. There's the perfectionist, there's the opposer, there's the power, you know, the power guy or gal, and then there's the so I said, a poser, power perfection, the competitor, the guy or gal, has always got to win when the aggressive gets doesn't get what they need or want, watch out. But there's another culprit at play, and that's the passive defensive. This is the avoider, the one that needs permission, the one that's complacent, or the one that wants to conform. And when the passive defensive are overly passive, they're over using that trait. Guess what happens to the defensive aggressive so we're all in this war of friction, and when we all can just calm the heck down and realize that we're bringing our past in and mostly our most underdeveloped part of our self is what creates our strengths, and when we're lit up or reactivated or under the gun, that's what shows up, not our highest and best self. It's why I have the compass up there. I mean, it's to remind me, am I at my highest and best self, and am I supporting other people in being at their highest and best self? Because when we are in the midst of friction, I don't care who you are, you're part of the problem. And usually it's not 250 year olds having a debate. Usually it's two eight year olds at the playground deciding who's going to get the ball, or two teenage kids deciding who's going to get the girl or the boy or whatever stuff we carry from our past.

Mick Spiers: 14:06

Yeah, really good, Margie. All of those characters show up in most workplaces. So I'm sure that there's people listening to the show going, Oh yeah, I know that one. I know that one. Well, don't forget to look in the mirror. You're one of those as well. I love the point that you said about the reflection and projection, and some of it is reflecting back things that you thinking you're seeing, and then projection, projecting your own insecurities. So if you find yourself saying statements like, oh, that person only did that because part of your brain is saying how you would have reacted in the same situation, so make sure you're applying some critical thinking to this, to make sure that you know it to be true, and to be careful with confirmation bias, because you'll then start seeing the things that confirm this view that you're formed, and you won't see the things that that disprove what you think you're seeing.

Margaret Graziano: 15:00

He's always.

Mick Spiers: 15:02

Exactly.

Margaret Graziano: 15:02

That's confirmation. And then, and then you do, you look for evidence. You look for evidence of how bad this person is or how good this person is.

Mick Spiers: 15:12

Yeah, exactly. And you might, you might miss red flags. If your confirmation bias is on the positive, you might miss a few red flags that you should have been paying attention to, and if it's on the negative, you'll only see the bad in that person. Then I love that. The action part that you said about, well, what are you going to do about it? So, so if there is a situation that you're not happy with, don't just go into your shell. Have a conversation with them. And people can't fix what they don't know about. So unless you have that conversation. Yeah, go. Go ahead, Margie.

Margaret Graziano: 15:42

And most people don't. That's when we go in and do our deep alignment retreats. There are these three day deep dive retreats. We are opening the floor for telling the truth about what's not working, you'd be shocked at how little training people have in what I call clearing and upset, or clearing the space. There needs to be more training in organizations of how to clear the space, how to clear and upset. How do you even know that you're upset? You know, there's three indicators that you might be upset you know that show you know, you know something is happening when. But there's an upset whenever one of your values has been stepped over and you feel friction, constraint, ickiness about it. There's also an upset when you wanted something to happen, and you thought it was going to happen and it didn't happen. An unfulfilled expectation. There's also an upset when you wanted someone to happen and wanted something to happen and you were counting on someone else to do it, and that would be like a thwarted intention, like, Hey, you were supposed to do this thing, or have give me a raise or give me a promotion, and it didn't happen. And so then, of course, you look outside, and then the it's actually four indicators. And the fourth one is you have something to say, and you haven't said it. You've been suppressing it or holding it in. And then, you know, when you hold it in and hold it in, it erupts. But all of those things is typically something you value was stepped over and the brain, it's easy for the brain to take a shortcut and say, back to the bad boss. That bad boss did this to me, much harder for the brain to take a step back and say, How did I contribute to this breakdown? What's my cause in the matter of it? And that's really when we I was just a podcast, and the guy said, Tell me about the evolution of your business. And it wasn't always from the inside out. It was we added from the inside out when so many people were thinking they had nothing to do with the dysfunction, or people would call me and say, we think we need to fire John. John is the problem. And you know, I'm like, it's never just John. Man. We're all a family, and we're all bringing in our baggage.

Mick Spiers: 18:20

This is a really powerful takeaway, already,Margie, so firstly, the Inside Out has come out a few times, and the words I'm screaming in my head, how did I contribute or perpetuate? How did I contribute or perpetuate this situation? And you are, you are part of that situation. Then everything else I heard from you in that last stanza was the heart of emotional intelligence, to be able to get out of autopilot and start noticing and naming the emotion that you're feeling. And all emotions are information. They're telling you about a met or unmet need. Positive emotions are about a met need. Negative emotions are about an unmet need. So what is this emotion? Why this emotion? Why this emotion now? And if you can do that, by the way, you're going to get yourself out of the root brain. You get yourself into the limbic brain and potentially to the to the frontal cortex to start making more logical, rather than reactionary, decisions. How does that sit with you, Margie?

Margaret Graziano: 19:22

I want to add one thing to what you said. It's everything you said. And what does this remind me of where else felt it so this is a silly example, but I'm going to give it to you. So when I get on stage, I get my hair and makeup done, and I was doing a showcase about two months ago for a bunch of speaking bureaus, and I got my hair done in Florida. And I didn't know the woman, but she certainly did not do my hair like my hair is in all the pictures. She made these spiral curls. And I looked at myself in the mirror, and I was devastated, and I had to be downstairs in three. 30 minutes, I looked like little orphan, Annie, like from Annie, it was awful. And so I went and I did the showcase, and I did okay, but it was for a woman, her hair and makeup very important. If she's on stage. Men might do something else, but I know for a woman, it's like if you don't feel good about how you look, it often can impact how you deliver, especially on stage when you're being judged and filmed. So I was getting my hair done at home in my own territory, with my own people, and I was telling them the story, and I said, I have a little bit of PTSD because I can't see you doing my hair. Whatever you do, don't get me those curls. And then I thought about it, and that moment, I remembered back when I first got a divorce, I went on a blue of black tie affair date. I had this beautiful gown that he bought me, $1,000 Armani gown. I would never spend that, but he bought it for me, and I took it and wore it, and then I had my hair done, and she made me look like tendril curls. That is not my MO I looked ridiculous. I opened the door and he saw me, and he laughed. Not good. I stopped going out with him, but still, and he saw it. I didn't look well. Then I thought back middle school, I got my first perm. Again, I look like Little Orphan Annie. My mother worked with me so hard to fix that perm. We put so many chemicals in my hair, it turned green, and I had to start my first day of middle school with green hair. So we have all this stuff that happens in and I'm using a silly example of hair, but still, at my age now, I'm in a chair someone I know is doing my hair, and I get the flash little orphan. Annie, well, that happens with bosses. That happens with reports. It happens with public speaking. It happens with performance reviews, and most people are not saying, what does this remind me of? Talked to because we were too assertive, or we got talked to because we weren't assertive enough, or we got talked to because we didn't deliver as intended on something, or we had a bad hair day, and we bring those things into the present, and it really does cause an awful lot of friction between relationships, because we're not clean, we're not clear. We're each bringing in this past and and sometimes when there's friction at work, it's not 250 year old adults, it's 2/8 graders or 2/3 graders or two teenagers. And people don't realize that that's who's showing up in the meeting until they reflect. So I think the number one competency that I would say that everyone who cares about culture and about happiness needs to focus on is self awareness.

Mick Spiers: 23:16

All right, yeah, really good. So starting with self awareness, I'm going to share a little story with you, Margie, and it takes intentional action to do what I'm about to say. If I've had a disagreement with someone, or I've sent an email, and the email I get back is complete gobbledygook and going, what on earth I have to purposely pause and delay and go? Well, hang on a second. What could I have done differently to get a different result? That doesn't mean that it's all me and it doesn't mean that it's all them, but my first step is to think about, how did I show up? What could I have done differently? Who did I show up? Was it my eighth grader or was it my 51 year old? I'm 51 now. I think I'm wiser than my eighth grader self, maybe sometimes, but yeah, I'd need to take that intentional act to self reflect. How am I showing up, and what can I do differently to get a different result, before I start looking at the environment around me and the other person, how does that sit with you, with this inside out philosophy that you're sharing with us?

Margaret Graziano: 24:21

If we would all do that, we would be in much better condition to have a better experience at work. So you know, the other thing that is coming up for me right now is somebody might be listening to this saying, I like my job, I like making good money, but I don't really care about the organization long term, because I'm only here for a few years. But the question is, do you like your life, and do you want to go home and be present and with your family and with your friends and not be always struggling with work? Because we don't leave it at work, we drive home and we take it in the house with us. US, and the name of the game is having agency, autonomy and authority in all of life, and what that requires is to reduce the friction at work. Naturally. There's friction, there's challenges. The Internet goes out, somebody forgets to pay a bill or sign up for a license, or a client changes direction, or the new product has a glitch in it, there's there's naturally friction that will occur. So why add to it? The cleaner we can be with each other, and the cleaner we can be, the quicker we can response with agility to what's needed now. And that's this whole thematic body of work, responsibility, which is what we do when we're working with individuals, teams and organizations, is how do we elevate the level of responsibility so that who's solving the problem is present, equipped, aware and connected, and takes action in accordance with their own values and with the values of the organization, and takes the kind of action that doesn't create repercussions downstream. Because when we're in a state of frustration and we don't have access to our prefrontal cortex, our executive brain, we come up with solutions that often cause 10 other problems downstream because we have no access to our whole thinking, so we can't think systemically when we are thinking through frustration or fear.

Mick Spiers: 26:40

Yeah, really, really powerful motion here. So starting with that, self awareness for sure, understanding where my emotional state is. Am I in my root brain, or am I able to access the limbic brain and the in the frontal cortex to make sure that I am thinking clearly? And one of the things I think of here is, am I reacting, or am I responding? And if I'm always in reactionary mode. It's going to be that root brain Fight, fight, flight or freeze reaction that hasn't thought things through clearly at all.

Margaret Graziano: 27:10

Well and can't it's not even it's not like a bad and wrong. The brain has been orchestrated to defend you in trouble like a saber toothed Tiger, defend you. So all of your blood drains from your brain, goes to protect your internal organs, puts like inflammation to protect you. And so you don't even have access. You have no control over it, but what you do have control over is learning to slow down. What you do have control over is choosing to practice mindfulness. What you do have control over is self awareness, but in the moment of the crisis that your amygdala thinks you're in, you don't have any of that control. You've lost it.

Mick Spiers: 28:00

Yeah, really good. All right. So we take a beat, maybe a few deep breaths. It can take as little as six seconds to just process, and then I'm going to respond, not react. This is going to be a really key part of it. Want to throw something to you about the friction that's come up a lot. Margie, so this works. This bounces off the work of Timothy, go away. The author of the book The inner game, and his equation for performance is, performance is equal to potential minus interference. Oh, my God, that's so good. And we see so many businesses and people work on their potential, but don't take the time to remove the interference. And guess what? There's a reason why the his book is called the inner game. Most of the interference is in here. It's in your brain. It's about how you're perceiving what's going on around you. And if we don't take that time to remove the friction, our full potential can't be achieved. How does that sit with you? With your friction to flow this potential, modest interference.

Margaret Graziano: 29:02

Totally. And I would say the interference is it's personal and interpersonal and even team and organizational, because just think about your own family. You live with somebody, you have a way you interact with each other. You've got interference in your own head. They've got interference in their own head. Now they're interacting with each other through that interference. That's what clearing the space is about. That's what cleaning up is about. And we do that in our deep alignment, like we'll have. We're starting at a level set at a ground zero, so we can begin again, which is a coaching distinction, and so I agree 100% I wrote the book down. I think I call it constraints, internal and external constraints, but I think that we can point enough data to that 40 or 50% of payroll costs. Are being spent on interference rather than performance, which is why so many people that run companies are out of their mind aggravated by performance, and they think it's mandating everybody come back to work, which could help, because at least there's focus, but if then there's a lot of interference in the office, then you're going to have people saying, I was way more productive at home. And so I think the, you know, if we go back to the 1960s when Ram Dass first started taking Eastern philosophy through the United States and through the world, that was when the inner game began. That's when the birth of the human potential movement blossomed. I mean, it was the Ram Das movement, wrist for the mill, and polishing the mirror and all the other work that he did. And then, I don't know if, if you have an institute down there, we have Esalen Institute, which in the in the States, they say, is the birthplace of the human potential movement. People like Timothy Leary and ROM das and Daniel Goldman, believe it or not, the guy who wrote the book on EQ was in India with Ram Dass. They were all part of the same cohort. They call him Danny and, you know, Jack Kornfield and all of those people got on this, this mission to bring the inner game into the world. And then in the 80s, it just got, who needs that? We're on a race to the moon. Who needs that we're, you know, we've got tack and high tech and and now, I think, because of AI and because of the battle for technological supremacy, the inner game means more than anything, because anything that can and will be automated. And so what's left is us. Daniel Pink talks about, in his book to sell as human. He's not really talking about sales. He's talking about interacting. He's talking about being with people. He's talking about emotional quotient, and we're going to all need to be way better at that when a third or a fourth or 50% of our job can be automated. What's left then it's what I bring. That's my intuition, my innate intelligence that a machine does not have, at least not yet, and my insight, that's what a human brings. So we all whether we think we have friction at work or not, we all want to be cultivating this inside out world.

Mick Spiers: 32:46

What you caught my attention with there Margie, was the 40 to 50% inefficiency and friction, which, for some companies might be conservative. By the way, what I was thinking is many CEOs out there that would think that they want to increase productivity, and their their first go to is, oh, we need more people. Well, hang on a second. You're not, you're not making the most of the people that you've already got. You're not tapping into their inner, inner genius. And by the way, if it's a, if it's a, let's say it's a dysfunctional machine today, adding more interfaces makes it even more complex. It's actually going to grind it to a halt.

Margaret Graziano: 33:23

Yeah, it's interesting that as coaches and if, especially if you're organizational, like if you're holistic thinking, and you're you've got good systems judgment, you can see it. Some people in HR can see it, but they lack the vernacular to communicate it in a way that can be heard. But for most of the time, my clients don't really see it until we put them in simulations and they see how much time they waste spinning. It's this experiential spinning Ness that has them see it. And then we say, now add that, if there's 17 people in this room, and you have 1500 employees, or 500 employees, or 300 employees, just imagine the payroll cost. And then the eyes start and then then they start getting angry, because you don't when you have a problem, like, that's like, what do I do about it? It can be fixed, but the last thing you want to do is throw more people at the problem, because it just adds the complexity and the chaos and and like what you just said, If communication is rough between 20 people, with 20 people, there's something like for for me and you, if we're communicating, We have four opportunities for a miscommunication, I say something in a way that you can't hear it. I hear what you said through my own filter. So that's me bringing two miscommunications. You bringing two miscommunications because you hear it differently and say it differently. So with two people, there's four opportunities for miscommunication. With five people, it's double the amount of opportunities for miscommunication, and then it scales from there, because everybody's listening and speaking on their own vibrational level. And even the words people use, I'll say, A, B, C, D, E, and then I'll say to somebody in the audience, what did you hear? And they'll say, Z, X, W, 2, 4, 6.

Mick Spiers: 35:27

The world is full of examples of that Margie, where people walk away from the same conversation with a completely different understanding of what was just said. And to get to your point, about the 17 people in the room, and there's 500 people in the organization, what do those 17 people do? They go off in their own direction. And before you know it, it has not just multiplied, it's exponentially multiplied.

Margaret Graziano: 35:50

And they go off in their own direction from their own egoic perspective and their own past and all their own projections and all their own reflections, and for the most part, these are good people. The amount of evil doers in the world is limited, at least right now. I think through history, it's been limited. Most human beings want peace. They want joy. They want happiness. They want people to collaborate. Most people, they're not. They don't wake up in the morning and say, How can I be evil today? Maybe there's a few of those people in my country right now, but but for the most part, I just don't think the greater masses of humanity want to go to work and create that kind of trouble.

Mick Spiers: 36:39

So before we hit record, Margie, you and I spoke about the stat that only one in five people in the world truly love their job and like their boss. But I can tell you, both bosses and employees and every layer of the organization, very few. There's probably a very small percentage of completely narcissistic people. Very few people turn up to work, going, rubbing their hands, going, how can I be a jerk today? It just doesn't happen. Just doesn't happen. And yet our mind gets away on.

Margaret Graziano: 37:09

They don't know when, they don't know what they don't know about their impact.

Mick Spiers: 37:13

Yeah, that's it. That's exactly right. Okay, so I want to reflect on some of the things we've covered so far. I've got one more question before we head to our closing round. So everything I'm hearing today, this inside out concept, is really grabbing hold of me, Margie, and thinking about when you see something in someone else, first thing check, are you is this reflection and projection, or are you truly objectively observing the behavior of the other person. Then stop and think about, how am I contributing to or perpetuating this situation? What role did I play to get here? It's not them, it's us. So you've played a role in how to get there, the self awareness, the emotional intelligence to think about, what am I feeling now? Why am I feeling that emotion? Why this emotion? Why this emotion? Now? What is it trying to tell me about a met or unmet need? And now we can start bringing together some more reasoned and critical thinking to the situation where we stop reacting and we start responding based upon what am I feeling. And one of the really big one that you shared, what is it reminding me of as well to look at is this bringing something up from my past that I haven't fully processed, that's going to impact my judgment today? These are really powerful.

Margaret Graziano: 38:35

I want to share with you. So I don't know if we could put this QR code in the notes, the show notes, but basically, this is a ebook on transforming transforming friction to flow. And there's two other steps in there, and one of them is, you've got to be in this state of neutrality before you jump to a conclusion. And if you are hot under the collar, or you know out of your mind, or spinning out down the spiral, down to hopelessness, you will never be objective. You can't be so you want to get yourself at least to neutral, I tell my clients, just be like the Buddha for one minute. Just be neutral. A mountain is a mountain. It doesn't think about being a mountain. It's not good or bad. It's just a mountain. That guy did what he did, and he just did that. And then the you were talking earlier about breathing, we give people all sorts of different processes to get themselves back to neutral so they can take action. We say it's 90 seconds. You have to be really good to do it in five seconds. Really good to do it in six seconds. But 90 seconds allows you to go through the whole sculpt process, stop and act, understand, listen, process and take action. Other things. We didn't talk about and we won't have time for today. Connect to what? What am I connecting to? Well, some of the cultivating work people need to do to master responsibility and master having a healthy, intentional high performance culture is creating a noble cause for the business and creating an ultimate intent for your life. It's why we're the compass. It's why I have the compass behind me. What's my North Star? What is it about for me? Am I just going to work to get a paycheck and deal with all the crap all day long, so that I can have the paycheck, so that I can live life and then go back to work and bring all my aggravation home? No, I'm working as a vehicle to something that's important to me in life, and we need to do the work before the 90 seconds or six seconds or five seconds. What am I working for? Why am I here? Why did I pick this job? Why am I in this role? Why this company? Otherwise we're like a boat in the ocean with no rudder, and we're at the affect of all of the waves and the rain and the storms and the climate, and we will all be at the effect of things some of the time. But wouldn't it be awesome to be the master of our own ship, 85 to 95% of the time to be awake and aware to what is and making choices from our highest and best self. Wouldn't we all want that most of the time?

Mick Spiers: 41:31

Absolutely Margie and connecting to our why and to our purpose, it becomes that point of resilience, but it also can help channel our energy in the right direction. So part of that check in with yourself is understanding, is this critical? Is it on the path towards my North Star? I think that's a powerful reflection as well. Okay, so the final question I want to ask, let's say that the person's done the inner work, so they're starting to process more clearly. Margie, they're doing that. What role did I play in this situation? They've processed they're much more clearer. They're coming from neutrality. What then? So, yes, we start with us, but then when we reconnect to the other person that we might be having the conflict or friction with, how do we then take the next step once we've done that inner work.

Margaret Graziano: 42:23

So it's really good. So one of the exercises that we have people do is imagine you at your highest and best self. Picture yourself having a conversation with this person. From your intent, your ultimate intent, who you are, what's important to your life? Mine, for example, is people are liberated. It's why I do everything I do. And I imagine myself having a conversation from that place and ex feel the expansion of energy of me being my highest and best having a conversation when I am visualizing me having that conversation, and I'm also holding the space for whatever has me hot under the collar or aggravated or sad or upset or anxious or worried. I'm not dismissing it. I'm not pretending it's not there. It's there. I'm witnessing it from a place of neutrality, but I'm bringing in my highest and best self, what would she do? What would she say? She wouldn't blame that guy. She would say something like, I notice that I'm suppressing around you and that I'm getting aggravated. Can we talk about what's in the way here? Because there's a lot of friction, or you might in visualizing your highest and best self, you might say, oh, I need to be curious with that person. Hey, I'm noticing we're not clicking right now there seems to be a lot of aggravation. Am I doing or saying something that is ticking you off? Have I forgotten something? Is there something I said, or did that made you feel less than respected by me? I mean, it's it's getting curious. I there's not one thing I can say, what I could what the recipe I have and I coach to and in the the free ebook on turning friction to flow or moving friction to flow. It's getting in your highest and best self and asking yourself, what's the next right move? What action would give me? Alignment with my highest and best self, alignment with our noble cause, alignment with my values, alignment with our company values, and then you'll come up with all sorts of different actions, but you've got to, and you've talked a lot about it, and I have, you've got to take responsibility for where you are now. Embody those emotions, process, where did they come from? What's going on? Blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah, and then what do I want? And then what's the next right thing to do? Being what I want, who I want, what I'm committed to. But most of us don't take those 90 seconds. We just you pissed me off. Boom, I'm gonna fight you. You did this. You did that. And then we have, you know, a replay of our relationship with one of our siblings in the workplace or with one of our parents.

Mick Spiers: 45:24

Yeah, and adding fuel to the fire. So really powerful technique that I'm hearing there, Margie is a fly on the wall or a balcony view of the conversation, but doing it through the eyes of your highest and best self. So the person that you would be most proud to become the person that you're trying to become. What would they do? That's a great that's a great example.

Margaret Graziano: 45:48

Yeah. And my coach once told me, you know, in coaching school, they do a lot about the future self, who you're becoming, and Michelle Obama becoming. I have a coach who's really powerful in ontology, the study of being human. She says, I'm tired of hearing about your future self. Your future self is who you are now, who you declare you are now. It's the highest and best version of you, moment by moment by moment, we could pick to be that highest and best version and the highest version of ourself. We're not blaming, we're not shaming. We are generating, we are giving, we are contributing, we are living in alignment. So what would that person do now, here and now, and that coach is cookie Boudreau, and she's made such a difference for me in my life, so I always want to give her the kudos cookie deserves.

Mick Spiers: 46:39

Yeah, I love it. All right, brilliant, Margie, you've given us so much to think about today, a lot of personal reflection, and the Inside Out philosophy is the one that I'm taking away, for sure, and I know that the audience, like, if you're listening to this right now, the things that Margie is talking about, you can start today. You can start with little steps today, to take some time, to take a beat to take a few deep breaths, to process, to start getting into response, not reaction. You can start taking these things today and stop and this external view of it's always them. That's where we started this conversation is Margie was pointing her fingers, going, it was them, it was them. What role did you play? What role did you play. What did you do here? Yeah, the finger exercise. So on the video podcast, Margie is holding up her fingers, and when you point with one finger, three fingers are pointed back to you. So what role did you play to contribute or perpetuate this situation? I think if we start with that, then you got the building blocks on how you can move forward. All right, Margie, I want to take us now to our our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests. So what's the one thing that you know now? Margie graziono, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Margaret Graziano: 47:53

That I will always be a work in progress, that there is no end game. There is no I got to the mountain. I'm done, and that whenever there is friction, I have a role in that. I didn't I didn't get that until I was 36.

Mick Spiers: 48:12

They're both very powerful and very aligned with our conversation today as well. Margie, thank you. What's your favorite book?

Margaret Graziano: 48:19

Right now? I do a lot of reading, and I have different favorites at different times, but right now, giving the time we're living in, reclaim higher ground by Lance secreten. Secreten Creating organizations that inspire the Soul. And this is a very influential book in how I got started, how I got into culture, I realized that just placing people in jobs, while it is noble, getting people work is noble. It wasn't my soul's calling. My soul's calling was once they're together. How do we have them equipped to thrive? And I love this book. Love it, love it. Love it, love it.

Mick Spiers: 49:00

All right, brilliant. We haven't had that one on the show, so it's a good one to add to our list. Well done. Thank you. What's your favorite quote?

Margaret Graziano: 49:06

My favorite quote is by Ram Dass, and this is for this is for now, for the times we are in right now. Let's trade in all our judging for appreciating. Let's lay down our righteousness and just be together, Ram Das.

Mick Spiers: 49:24

I love it. It's so powerful. I hadn't heard that one either until now, but I love that quote. And finally, Margie, how do people find you? If people are inspired by this work and they want to do this inside out work and they want to ignite culture in their organizations. How do people get in contact with you?

Margaret Graziano: 49:43

Well, Ignite culture, if what you want is for teams and organizations, really get the book. It's on Audible. It's hard copy, it's soft copy, and I think it's under $24 The other way is through YouTube. I have two channels. One is ignite culture. The other is responsibility. So if you're if you're more about leadership, when you might be because you're on Mick podcast or listening, then that would be responsibility. If you're about culture, then go to the Ignite culture. My company website is keenalignment.com and my personal website is margaretgraziano.com

Mick Spiers: 50:24

All right, so thank you so much, Margie. This has been a wonderful conversation. There's nuggets of gold throughout. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us today.

Margaret Graziano: 50:35

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Mick Spiers: 50:38

Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation with Margie Graziano, I hope it left you thinking deeply about the culture you're creating, whether by design or by default. If today's episode sparks something in you, I encourage you to pick up a copy of Ignite culture and explore Margie frameworks further and remember this, the culture you lead is a reflection of the clarity, courage and care you bring to the table each day. In the next episode, I'll be diving into my own reflections on the conversation with Margie and my own experience about how to create a culture that you'd be proud to lead. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.