278. Voice for the Voiceless: Why Inclusive Leadership Matters with Kelli Lester

The backlash against DEI has left many leaders unsure of how to champion inclusion in a politically charged environment. Kelli Lester, co-founder of Onyx Rising and seasoned diversity practitioner, brings clarity with a grounded, practical approach to creating workplaces where everyone truly belongs. Her journey began with a recruitment project that opened her eyes to deeper issues in workplace culture, revealing that representation without intentional inclusion often leads to high turnover among diverse talent.

Kelli’s philosophy evolved from advocating solely for underrepresented voices to engaging those in positions of power to drive lasting change. “Being a voice for the voiceless was my early mantra,” she shares, “but I realized that for real change to happen, I needed to spend more time with those in the majority.” Her seven behaviors of inclusive leadership—ranging from self-awareness and psychological safety to managing inclusively—offer a concrete framework for leaders seeking to move beyond performative gestures toward real cultural transformation.

In our conversation, Kelli also highlights the importance of understanding generational diversity in today’s multigenerational workforce. She encourages leaders to ask human-centered questions like, “What does a good day look like for you?”—underscoring that inclusive leadership means seeing the whole person, not just their demographics. With practical tools and powerful insights, this dialogue is a must for anyone ready to build teams where diverse talent can thrive and lead.

🌐 Connect with Kelli:
• Website: https://www.onyx2rise.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-lester-2302b9/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/onyx2rise/

Chapters

• 0:27 How DEI Became a Dirty Word
• 2:44 Kelly's Journey to Inclusive Leadership
• 6:14 Seven Steps of Intentional Inclusion
• 17:49 Where DEI Went Wrong and How to Fix It
• 28:11 Generational Diversity in the Workplace
• 45:07 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

How did DEI become a dirty word in some circles? What's really going on in the backlash against diversity, equity and inclusion, and how did we drift so far from what it was always meant to be? And more importantly, how do we get back to the basics, creating workplaces where everyone feels like they truly belong. Today, we are joined by KelliLester, co founder of onyx rising and a fierce advocate for inclusive leadership. Kellishares her journey from the media world into the heart of cultural transformation, and walks us through the difference between representation and true inclusion, we explore the current turbulence surrounding DEI, especially in US politics and why now more than ever, leaders must step forward with clarity, compassion and courage. If you're a leader who wants to cut through the noise, reconnect with the true purpose of dei and create environments where everyone can thrive. This conversation is for you. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Kelli Lester. Kelli, is co founder of an organization called Onyx rising, who specialize in transforming individual, team and organizational behavior, and she specializes in inclusive leadership, and that's what we're going to talk about today. What does inclusion mean, and how do we make sure that we're creating inclusive spaces where people can do their very best work? We'll also talk about what's happening in the world of DEI, and it is a bit crazy right now. I think we all have to admit that there are some very unusual opinions going around, and I'm going to say misinformation about DEI. So we'll explore that a little bit, and we'll talk about specifically generational inclusion and generational diversity and what that means in your business. So without any further ado, I really want to get into this content. Kelli, I'd love to hear from you. Tell us say hello to the audience. Tell us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to do the work that you do today?

Kelli Lester: 2:18

Yeah. Thank you so much. First of all, for having me, it's really been an interesting journey. I actually came out of college thinking I was going to be the next Oprah, and it didn't work out, and so I spent about 10 years in media and communications, and I will say that it was a very helpful tool, especially when you think about influencing change, which is really what dei inclusion is all about. And I would even say leadership. So I came out of that PR marketing background public relations, and I was given a project while I was at a media company, and it was an internship program, and the internship program was focused on recruiting people in people of color, into the industry of communication. So I was like, Absolutely, this is great to brag about, you know, the industry and that little pet project turned out to be the door that opened for me to really understand what workplace culture is and the power that leadership really has in creating that. And so we had a great, very successful program. After the program, I went from no one knowing about it to a waiting list. And so it got the attention of human resources, and they ultimately promoted me to really build the at the time, we called it staffing, so I'm showing my age, but I built the staffing function, and I started to notice a revolving door, and I realized, obviously this is way bigger than just recruiting and staffing. It became as I got more curious about the leadership as well as the person and people that we were recruiting, where we were recruiting them from, because you can look different, but maybe have the same degree or the same style. And ultimately, the organization I was working for at the time had some favorites in terms of what schools they like to recruit talent from. And as I really got into it, that's when I learned about Diversity Equity and Inclusion. And that one, it could be a career, and that there was so much more to it, both human resources and people processes, but even marketplace growth. And, you know, I'm a bit of a nerd, so I really got into it. And then later I ended up leading Diversity Equity and Inclusion at Sarah Lee Corporation, at a global company, and then spent over 10 years in consulting all over the world, doing this work, and then went off on my own. And when I went off on my own, I have both this now called inclusive leadership and innovation. So even we rebranded as well. As the other side of our business, which is financial wellness, which we see as an employee benefit. So those are the two areas in the business. And it really, I think, was the curiosity of, how can I be a voice for the voiceless, as then my career grew in this space.

Mick Spiers: 5:17

So I love that. And that was a beautiful crescendo, actually, the voice for the voiceless. Because what I was hearing listening to you, Kelli, is that you had a certain skill set, which was Media and Communications, which you're clearly very good at. But then what I'm hearing is you needed to find a need for that skill set to meet, and that need is DEI and what we do see in the world, where there are a big gaps in where we need to be, or the aspiration of where we'd like to be compared to where we are today. So using that skill set to meet a need in the world, not not just to be a talented person with a great brand and, you know, getting yourself out there, but to do something that has an impact, and the voice for the voiceless is very powerful.

Kelli Lester: 6:05

Yeah, I just was going to add, it's real interesting the earlier part of my career, that was really my mantra, right? The voice for the voiceless be there when they're not in the room. Sometimes, I don't think we recognize our privilege. We often see as human beings, what what don't have, or what's wrong, but we often don't see, oh, I'm in rooms many people aren't in. And when you are in those rooms, how do you advocate for, you know, those that don't have a voice? But as I matured, I started to realize in my career that I was spending almost too much time. It's funny to say that, but with those that are underrepresented, so for real change to happen, I had to really understand I may need to spend time with those that are in the majority, that really have power and that can really create change and spending more conversations. And I think people that are practitioners, I think struggle many times, not getting the impact they want because they spend time in the wrong places. And so that was a big lesson. Spending time coaching leaders as I really grew, was paramount.

Mick Spiers: 7:13

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think there's three dimensions there. Kelli is to be a voice for the voiceless. Firstly, to be an ally, you need to have heard the voices to be able to understood, you know, what is going on in their world and where the challenge is, why are they not getting through? But then you need to pivot, and then spend the time with the people that need to hear the message, which is the leaders. So that's, I'm going to say that's for any person that wants to be a better ally. The first thing it starts with is listening at one end, and the second it's to then find the platform that helps you bring that message, or whatever that case may be, to the people that need to hear it. Really interesting. Kelli, now you've spoken about inclusive leadership a lot there. Tell us what inclusive leadership looks like to you?

Kelli Lester: 8:02

Yeah, I'll say In short, inclusive leadership is our ability to one, be self aware and then lead with everyone else in mind. And it also means that we're then leading without any or at least minimal biases. So we have to be aware of our own in order to be able to navigate them effectively. And we have to be very aware of others, and how we show up in the room, how we land on others, so we can be a great technician. I always say that many clients I work with, you are tapped on the shoulder for doing a great job, and then you become a leader, and they don't often teach you the leadership skills. So we may be good at that thing, and we may be good at understanding the way we like to do things, but when you're a leader of people, you have to go beyond self. You really do need to understand self, but then you have to really say, How does my style then show up in the mix with someone else's? And am I really doing my due diligence to I love how you put it. We have to listen to those voices. So if I'm only hanging out with the same type of people, I'm likely not learning or growing much. So we have to be real intentional. So I guess if I were to ever rebrand from where I'm at now, I would add the word intentional. There's a real intentionality with inclusive leadership that you wouldn't see if you were just more on autopilot.

Mick Spiers: 9:37

So, I'm going to hear three things there again. So I'm hearing the awareness of self, including our own biases, and checking in with ourselves as to how our our biases and we all have them to be clear, how are our biases showing up in the way that we lead? Then the second sphere of awareness is awareness of my environment, awareness of everyone around me, and what are they bringing to the. Table, and do they feel included, and that then inclusion is an intentional action. It's not something you just leave to chance. It's an intentional action. So for people listening to this and they want to be more inclusive, what do those intentional actions look like, Kelli?

Kelli Lester: 10:21

Yeah, well, and so I gave one of them away, right? Self awareness. It's interesting doing this work for over 25 years. I always will hear people come into sessions or workshops or learning experiences and they're like, right there, I'm ready to learn about difference, or either there they don't want to learn about difference, and they come kicking and screaming, right? But they don't often think that the first step is self awareness. So what that means is beginning to reflect on and understand your values, your beliefs. So ultimately, when we break down behavior change, change is really about thoughts, beliefs and behaviors, and so we don't often understand. A facilitator, friend of mine said we're born with a cup and that people are often filling things in our cup, right, especially before we're 18, right? We don't have a lot of control, right? Or where we live, or where we go to school or whatnot, so people are just filling up that cup, our parents, the neighborhood, our school, news media, but we oftentimes don't challenge what's been put in that cup. And so self awareness is really that step in reflecting on our values and beliefs and understanding. You know, how did I get that? Where did that come from? Something really simple. I get up early in the morning, and as a young leader, I had, I didn't realize at the time, but I had this perception that other people that got up early were more productive. Now, I never said that outright, but it showed up in my behaviors. So I started to realize I was had the like me thing going on, like, like hiring, promoting or showing unintentional favoritism, almost to those that were also in the office in the morning, right? So self awareness is the number one inclusive behavior, I would say, beyond going to leadership. So whether you're a leader or not, self awareness is critical. We've probably all worked with someone that's not aware, and there's ways to get at that. You can ask for feedback, you know, etc. The next is valuing differences. So we don't really celebrate our value differences will stay in our natural you know, common areas with other folks that are just like us, think like us, look like us, right? So when you're looking at valuing differences, it's almost like you're celebrating uniqueness. You're celebrating success. I think we all grew up thinking, Oh, okay, different is bad. So so I don't know if that's the case, but it may be a natural tendency, right? Someone's wearing something different and teeth them on the playground, or they look different. So seeing difference as value and as a leader. How do you really create or get comfortable in what I call creative abrasion. So that means we're not going to agree all the time, but it's okay, right? Let's have the conversation. I'm interested in your opinion, and I like mine too, but what we can create together will make that bigger, and that only happens when we value differences. The third trait is it's really a big one. So it's feedback. So it's seeking, giving and receiving feedback. And I would say most leaders are pretty decent, especially at the giving and maybe even the receiving. But what I found when I first started learning these principles is I did not intentionally seek feedback. And if I did, I did it from people like my go to people. So I really had to get intentional about, Oh, wow. Fran thinks very different than me. Let me go see what she thinks, or so and so brings a more strategic perspective. I would love to get their feedback so, and it's not just on a project, but even on my behavior, or how I'm showing up or how I'm working more collaboratively. The fourth one is promoting psychological safety. And I would just say, simply put, if your team can give their opinion, even if it's not popular, or they can have conversations across all levels, then you likely are creating that. And when people do give you feedback, maybe it's not great, maybe it is a blow. You saying thank you. I really appreciate you bringing that to me, knowing this will help me XYZ. Versus if you flip out or react negatively, then they're like, Oh, I'm never bringing her anything again, right? And then the fifth one is amplifying others, and this is one of my most passionate ones, because I think it's not just amplifying others in general, but amplifying unpopular perspectives, new perspectives, advocating for underrepresented talent, especially when they're not in the room. But amplifying diverse voices is really huge. And then the sixth one, which is a lot of what I'm hearing. You talk about it ironically, and I call it, it's both emotional and cultural intelligence. So we there's so many books about emotional IQ, EQ or EC, whatever you call it. But when it's really around that navigating others emotions and also understanding your own so I look at this on a practical level, is I may have came into this conversation or a meeting with you, and you just weren't having a good day, my ability to say, Okay, I know we were planning this podcast interview, but right now, I think I need to check in and just see where you are, and the way my friends would say it is, it's not my turn. It's your turn right now. So my ability to know that and be connected is really about my emotional IQ and then culturally. I think when it comes to cultural intelligence, it's not okay to not know about any other culture. I'm not saying you'll know everything, but to not understand within the Asian culture, there's multiple cultures, or with the Asian country, or within the Spanish speaking population, even just in the United States, we're Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Mexicans, right? There's so many. So it's not okay to not know that at this stage, to me. So I think it's a combination of the two, and then the last one, the seventh one, is managing inclusively. And to me, it's a bit of a culmination, but you'll see it in your outcomes. Do you hire diverse team? Do you build trust in relationships? Do you know how to build a trusted culture or even a team dynamic? So it's really about how you coach and how you mentor as well. And my favorite thing around managing inclusively is, you know, you're leading, mentoring and coaching inclusively if you're thinking about the person you're mentoring in a way where you're preparing them for the future. Because if I prepared you for what it was like when I was coming up in my career. You will fail. If I'm preparing you that's not aligned with your aspirations, then I'm really trying to create a mini me potentially, right? So I really think managing inclusively almost prioritizes the company. So I'm hiring for the company, not for me, and it prioritizes the person, but will see it in your outcomes.

Mick Spiers: 17:26

Oh, that was wonderful, Kelli. I'm going to encourage the audience, if you want to a real recipe of what it takes to be an intentionally inclusive leader, play back that last I'm going to say five minutes of Kelli talking. She gave the real steps that you can do, and you don't have to do them all at once, that might seem a little bit daunting, but pick one of the seven things that Kelli has just shared with us, it might be the self awareness to check in with your own thoughts and feelings and values, to understand Well, where did that come From to challenge your values and your biases is this, is this good? Bad, indifferent? How is it impacting to challenge yourself to are you really embracing diverse views or not, if you're walking away from every conversation with the same beliefs that you had before the conversation? Well, no, that's that's not inclusive. So to value other people's opinions, not just to explore them, to but to realize the co creation of what Kelli's talking about, that your opinion plus their opinion, or your experience plus their experience, is the sum of those two things is greater than, than, than the sum of the parts. So are you really creating that environment? Are you creating that speak up culture and we talk about Kelli, we talk about we get the behavior that we celebrate, reward and tolerate. We can talk about tolerate another time, but the celebrate and reward. I heard from you, Kelli, that every time someone speaks up, thank you so much for sharing that they're the key moments. If someone brings up an interesting idea and you react violently to it. Do you think they're ever going to speak up again? Not at all, even if you don't agree with what they've said. Thank you so much for sharing. Tell me more. And then there's the curiosity and the curiosity to listen more that also applies to the emotional intelligence and the cultural intelligence. The only way you can become culturally intelligent is to be more curious and ask interesting questions. And then there's the feedback loops, or everything you shared was just gold there, Kelli.

Kelli Lester: 19:29

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think that the biggest challenge with leaders embracing this whole thing it, I think you teed it up in the beginning, right? It's a misunderstanding or misinformation around what this even is first off. But no doubt, a leader has to see, and I'll say a learner has to see the value, either personally, organizationally or both, what's the wisdom? What's in it for me, and I would say. Say that you won't unlock innovation, right? It's, you know, I remember, you remember blockbuster. Blockbuster was like a video store. When we use that VHS is right? So there are no blockbusters, and blockbuster is an organization that I'd love to talk about, because it's almost like they didn't see what was next, right? Sometimes we don't even listen to our own employees. They can give us the answers to really break into new markets or to innovate our solutions. A lot of organizations are really experiencing some tough times right now in the US, and I don't know if they're tapping into the one, I don't want to say free, but they're one resource, right? The validated resource, so listening to your colleagues and creating that next idea that innovative or to create more productivity, because we're literally spending more time, obviously, with people either at work or in a work virtual environment. So I think we have to unlock why, and that, to me, is like a head and a heart component. A lot of my practitioners, over the years, I've seen them push the numbers, push the numbers, and what happens many times is true. It is a business case. I personally am a business woman. I think the business imperative excites me more, but you have to know who you're talking to. Some people, they'll feel like it's the right thing to do. Some will say it's the business value. But if you can't articulate the value, or they don't have that aha moment, then their heart doesn't connect with the head, which is the numbers, and so we don't see then any action which is the hands, right? So it's a head, heart and hands connection. And I do think it is a personal journey for each leader.

Mick Spiers: 21:52

I like this. I love it. It's head, heart and hands. And it really sums this up beautifully, that there is a human element to DEI, and then there's a business case for DEI, the human element, for me Kelli, is that people don't deserve to work in a workplace where they feel excluded. It feels horrible. Everyone deserves to work in a place where they feel welcome and feel included, then when they feel included, they're going to do their very best work. A employee that doesn't feel like they belong is never going to bring their their best, which is that I'm going to say the hands part and then the head part is the business case of how many ideas are you leaving on the table if you're not truly listening and creating these inclusive environments? The Block pastor, one's really interesting that that's a case of someone from outside the company came into Blockbuster and presented Netflix, and no one listened to them. I'll give you another one, Kodak. There was an employee inside Kodak who was the first person to think of what is now digital photography. And they were, they were employee of Kodak, and they weren't listened to. And now, now the the world is, you know, advanced beyond them. So head, heart, hands, absolutely beautifully summing up the human element and the business case for DEI. Now that leads me to the question, this is going to be a tough one. Kelli, where have we gone wrong in the last few years. How did DEI become a dirty word where, even sorry to say, president of your company an aircraft accident, and the first words out of his mouth are, I was a DEI hire. How did that happen? And how do we correct it?

Kelli Lester: 23:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, that is a big question. So let's first talk about how it happened. My perspective around how it happened is we consistently for years, and I would say, at least the last two decades, and I'm saying that nicely. It's probably much longer, I think, leaned over as organizations on the nice to have we kept pushing the budget to sure we'll put it in HR. It's a people thing, but if it's never really connected to the business value, I think that the lack of positioning is why it's the first thing to cut. We used to talk about this connected to marketing. So every we know we need marketing when we but we really need sales so, but when the budget cuts come, marketing is oftentimes the first off the table, right? So if that is familiar to some of your listeners, so I would say that we did not, as practitioners, do a great job of connecting it in a specific and unique way to the business. So by the time I came along into the space of DEI, they weren't even we were using different words, but once we started calling it DEI, which to me, is the last 20 years, I believe that most organizations did not take the time and say, what is our unique business case. So. So as we look at where we are right now, you may be revisiting how to rebrand this because of all the noise. And I actually am a big supporter of I don't care what you call it, you actually haven't done the job of branding it in a detailed way in your company if you even need to rebrand. And no offense to anyone, but I think that's where we went wrong. So what does it look like to do it right? Would be to talk with the leadership, not just HR, not just the choir, right, not just the people that are like us, but the people within the business, so that it gets embedded throughout and lead them through a conversation around defining it uniquely shaping the business case with their voice. And it's ironic, because my days in communications and politics, that's where I learned that it's coalition building. So if the practitioners are trying to do it on their own, I may go after I'm a woman, so I may say, Oh, I'll make it all about women or all about people of color, all about remote workers, or all about us based employees. But if we actually speak to the community at large and leadership, then we bake in an alignment to our business strategy or our mission. And so what might that look like. And fast forwarding to today, maybe you've made DEI everything, but what matters most to your organization is talent, and so your business case should be more clearly articulated. Everyone should know it, and it should be connected not only to a people strategy, but it's something that's going to drive the business. So you're not just focused on a people strategy, because everybody's doing that. Why are you focused on it? You're focused on a people strategy because if we don't figure out who the next generation of leaders here in this company in 10 more years, everyone's retiring, we have no knowledge exchange, we have no interest. We don't have a great pipeline, right? So you have to explain it in a way that's still connected to the business, even as a it's a even if it's a people factor. So I believe which is really your first part of the question, like, what went wrong? How do we get here? We need to take this opportunity now to fix it and actually make that if it's your for profit business, what is the business case? Who are you talking to to shape the actual business case, or case for change, and then maybe less is more. So you've been everything, maybe the focus is talent, and you can get you know deeper here and there, but you really need to communicate it in a way where everyone, the average person, will understand it, and you need to engage leaders talking about it, not just the HR people or not just the under represented people. Because I think another mistake is we've tapped people of color or LGBTQ, IA, you know, folks, or, you know, whatever, that more visible or acceptable difference is leading it. I'm not sure that that always needs to be the case, right? It needs to be the right person for the job. And also, you need a coalition of people, a council so people that look like you should be talking about it. The business should be talking about it, not just HR. It has to be owned by everyone. Everyone plays a role in creating inclusion. So I think I answered the first part of the question and a little bit of the second like, how do we fix it? But I will be honest, outside of corporations and non profits and the internal work, there's no doubt we will begin to see a lot more community work. And obviously in the United States, there's been a lot of government employees impacted. So I think enough people might be upset that we had we see more people joining the fight. And when I say the fight, fight to me is not always dramatic. Fighting may look like speaking up. Fighting may look like not standing for the status quo. Fighting may look like asking the question everyone's afraid to ask in the organization, but we absolutely need to ask it so it's having courage. It doesn't necessarily mean you're carrying a banner and protesting, although those fights are necessary as well. I don't personally think that the workplace, unless you have a business reason and you are a government organization, or you do business with the government, the focus needs to be on what makes sense to run our organization, because those are the things that will stay at core, I think. After the beginning of the year, I did a three part series to help practitioners. The first part was called rebranding, which we talked a little bit about. And again, my. Perspective is, change the name, don't change the work, right? The work still needs to be meaningful, refine the work. The second one was really about how this business case and sticking to the core. And so what goes away, you may kind of trim the fact the core, in my example, was talent, but maybe with your organization, it's something else, like generational diversity, or maybe it's both. Maybe it's about a global a true global workforce. We have a lot of organizations that are based in one country and say they're international and global, and they really aren't. So you really have to figure out what's the core. And then the third session was all about working on practitioner burnout, and I would say even leadership burnout at this point, because many organizations, they don't have someone leading DEI anymore. They put it in HR. They'll put it on a leader. So I think we all need to be somewhat equipped at how do you manage your own capacity in this leading and chaos environment that I think we are all leading.

Mick Spiers: 31:06

You're really good, Kelli, so there was a lot there. You've given us a lot to think about. The key messages I took away there was, it doesn't matter what you call it. In fact, you might have to rebrand it because of some of the stigma that has happened in recent times, getting back to the basics of what is the business case, of what we're trying to achieve here. But then the coalition, that was a word that rang in my head as you're talking about it. And funnily enough, you're actually by building that coalition and listening to people and bringing them in, you're actually already practicing inclusion by doing that. But then he say, what I'm what I was hearing there is, if they are involved, if they're co architecting the new program, whatever it's going to be called, right? If they're co architecting that program, they're going to support it. Whereas maybe in previous attempts where you've tried to do something, it has been a corporate program or something from HR, and people just have to, ah, everyone's going through compulsory training on topic. X, well, no, let's co create it together. And if they co create it, if their fingerprints are on it, they will support it.

Kelli Lester: 32:12

They'll own it. And I think embedding is the other component of the future too. So embedding, embedding. And I think people use buzz words, but they don't say what that really means, integrating and embedding it. So for example, with many of my clients where, you know, they had to change the names and all the, you know, a lot of a lot of different name changing. Actually, I didn't gotten complaints from practitioners. Let's say they're spending too much time, you know, changing names and not doing the real work. But I focus with those clients on, how do we embed so you have leadership development training, how do we just embed inclusive leadership? How do we embed these, you know, speaking engagements or moments? How do we get leaders connected to a resource group? So involvement and embedding is going to be the wave of, I think the future where we make it sustainable, you know, and we, you know, it sticks because it becomes how we actually work or lead.

Mick Spiers: 33:10

Yeah, brilliant. I love it, Kelli. Now another thing you've touched on as we've gone through there is that diversity is far more than just a gender, race or sexual orientation topic, diversity has comes in all kinds of flavors. And one of the ones that you touched on is the generational shift and, and what is happening with, I'm going to say, the the older generation that are leaving the workforce or about to leave the workforce, and and the younger ones coming through. And we're at the point now where we have more generations in the workforce than than ever before. Tell us what this generational diversity and generational inclusion looks like, and why it's important?

Kelli Lester: 33:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll try my best not to go too crazy on this, but I absolutely love talking about this topic because it's so relevant, and it's also relative personally, right? Most people either have children or nieces and nephews, right, and parents, right? So it's it's relatable, right? So I think, when I think about the generational diversity, or I like to speak about it in either a knowledge exchange or an action word like agility or synergies, so that we're thinking about this and not just that we have the difference, but what are we going to do about it? And I would say that there is a connection point with many of the generations in the workplace, but they have to find it through a dialog. And sometimes we almost stay away from people that are different from us. It's like unnatural almost. So you have to have programs in your organization that intentionally put people together. One of my favorite types of programs would be. Mentoring program, reverse mentoring program, or a lot of organizations focus in on a technology knowledge exchange. So it could be that the younger generation is making a connection with the older generation and sharing what they know of around how to do something faster, and then the person in the older generation is also sharing what information they know about industry history, industry trends or career development, but with this intent to come together around what would development look like best for our organization? So I always try to go a little level deeper, so at a high level. Of course, though we do have four generations minimum, in the in the workforce right now, and in the US, with the retiree age and people being concerned and financial challenges, you're seeing baby boomers stay longer in the workforce. One they're living longer as well. So that's a whole nother factor. So there's a lot bubbling up, and some of the typical things that I hear and or see, I am seeing cultures change around, how you dress and tattoos and but a lot of frustration between, I wouldn't say Gen X as much, but some Gen X, and then also baby boomers, with millennials and Gen Zs that just really can't connect on the way that they work, or their expectations at work, what we're seeing, and there's a lot of studies out there is that. And my son is actually in that millennial generation, and it's funny, because earlier today, he called me about his job, and what was so interesting is he said they didn't train me and they don't give me enough feedback, and I'm literally, like, quietly listening but laughing, because that's been a data point I've been sharing with managers forever. This younger millennial generation really, really wants more feedback, more training, what almost is perceived by Gen X as hand holding right and a perception that the boomers are older generation. We had to do it very independently. Safety is something when I do sessions with generations, I have them talk about what they remember about their generations. And what I was so fascinating in the sessions I've done with the court system is they started talking about the ability to play outside. The older generation talked about that, and then how safety became an issue, and then we started to see more younger generations inside. So the lens of which people are seeing the world and what they expect. It's very different for each of these generations. So how can a leader actually lead all of these different groups successfully? And the answer is still inclusive leadership, it really is, and there's a level of trying to understand what was important to them. So even that simple exercise could help with your team if you have multiple generations. I also see a dynamic that's challenging. When a Gen X is reporting to a millennial, which that start, that's happening a lot more as well. And Gen Z, I can't say I don't know as much about them. I don't have personalized contact in a lot of my clients, because I'm working more with leaders, but I read a lot about them, and I learn by making sure I always put younger people on my team, because it just makes everything faster better. I think help me see what I don't see or what I miss, and I think that's really the power of living an inclusive leadership lifestyle. I don't have to know all the answers. I was brought up in an era where I was expected to and the one good thing I think about today's leadership is I don't have to know all the answers, and the more I empower my team, regardless of their background, you know, then I'm actually a more powerful and a better leader, a more sought after leader as well. I think the last thing I'll say about all this is that we also can't pigeonhole people, right? I cannot say, oh, because you're a millennial open that really ticks people off, and so you really have to listen as you mentioned, and go on lived experience, right? Maybe you were the oldest, maybe you took care of your brother and sister. Maybe you were raised by your grandparents, or they were very influential, and you really identify with Gen X and not millennial, and that happens a lot. So I do think that this is a conversation that would be worth exploring at home. End up with better relationships within your family, as well as at work, for better relationships with your teams, with the intent and the outcome to not only have great relationships, but to have a more powerful business or organization.

Mick Spiers: 39:50

Yeah, see, Kelli, I think you're only saying that because you're a Gen Xer. I'm kidding. But that happens. That happens, right? So, yeah, don't pigeonhole people. That's really in. On, all right, very good. There's a lot there leaning in, I think is an interesting one there about embracing the differences, again, exactly what we're talking about, before embracing the different perspectives that are being brought to the table, and also avoid making sure that we're checking in self awareness, again, around biases you mentioned about tattoos and things like this. Yes, are you having some kind of biases? If someone turns up with lots of tattoos, that's a different thing in a new generation compared to what I'm going to say. I feel old right now, Kelli.

Kelli Lester: 40:35

You're not alone.

Mick Spiers: 40:36

Tattoos meant something different when I was younger than what it means to the younger generation now and just just embrace that and accept it and check your own biases at the door. But then, then this kind of it comes back to this co creation of young people realizing that there's so much they can learn from people that are industry experts. But for the industry experts to realize that if a young person comes into the workplace and ask a question of like, why do you do that? They might have some interesting ideas as to how to do it differently and different. Different is not wrong. Different could be better if we keep an open mind. I bet you they've got some interesting ideas on how we can use chat GPT that we haven't thought of, right?

Kelli Lester: 41:19

Absolutely, and I'm loving chatGPT now, but I really was an early resistor, right? And I had to be proven, like, well, you know, wait a minute, can my voice be in it? You know, I really wanted to know that, and I was able to through being open and curious, like you said, you know, learning.

Mick Spiers: 41:38

And the other one I picked up there is the other one I think we have to be careful with is assumptions, right? So when we jump to an assumption or a conclusion, and you spoke about your son wanting feedback, and I'm going to draw a conclusion that the reason why he wants the feedback is because he wants to do a good job and he wants to be impactful. But some people would take that need for feedback. Oh, why does he always need validation? You know, he's so needy. He's so needy. So check those biases at the door. Get curious about about what the person's really looking for, and keep keep an open mind. So be careful with assumptions about the other generation. How does that sit with you, Kelli?

Kelli Lester: 42:21

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it helps you lead uniquely in a way that will help that person feel valued. So for example, like I would love more money versus days off, but I've learned when I actually just asked my team, what would it look like to you? What does a good day look like to you? Like do it proactively before there's a problem, right? Ideally, I'm really getting at understanding them and their motivations, and then I would motivate them different than I would the other, another person. So I have two children. I have a son and a daughter, right? And they one's an introvert and one's an extrovert. Needless to say, My son is the extrovert. He is totally me, and my daughter is an introvert, right? And so I had to learn to not put her on the spot. And thank goodness I learned that, because it helped me at work, right? I'm an extrovert. I'm comfortable thinking on the spot, but I had to start checking in with every team member. Anytime I get a new team member, I want to have this deeper conversation around you know, what's a good day look like for you? What are you know, they may not even know their motivations directly, so you may have to ask some more sophisticated questions, but when I know that, then you'll take a bullet from me, not literally, but Right. You'll do anything for me as a team member, because I'm building this trust I'm seeing you, and I think people devalue that in the workplace a lot.

Mick Spiers: 43:48

Really powerful, Kelli. I love the question, what does a good day look like for you? And interestingly, like now. Now talking about generalizations, your daughter and your son grew up in the same household with almost the same lived experience. Of course, they've got their little differences in idiosyncrasies, but if we pigeon hold them and go, Oh, they're they're Kelli's children, they must be extroverts. Well, we just made a mistake, didn't we, right? And I bet you they would answer that question completely differently, so that that's a, that's a call to action to everyone in the audience. When was the last time you asked that to any of your staff members. What does a good day look like for you? I think you're going to be if you listen deeply, you're going to end up with some interesting answers, and they won't be identical. If you've got seven team members, you're going to get seven different answers. And the more you know about that, the more you can work with it. All right, brilliant, Kelli, I've, I've absolutely loved this conversation. I'm going to draw us now to a conclusion with our rapid, round questions. So these are the same four questions we ask all of I guess, what's the one thing you know now? Kelli Lester, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Kelli Lester: 44:54

That is a tough one. I struggled even reading that. I was like, Well, I would say the one. Thing I wish I would have known now is about people pleasing, and that people pleasing I now understand to be. What's underneath that is some kind of fear. For me, it may have been a fear of being perfect, or, you know, I call myself a recovering perfectionist, so I think that how to say no would have been something I wish I would have picked up a little earlier in life.

Mick Spiers: 45:26

Guilty as charged on that one as well. Okay, very good. What's your favorite book?

Kelli Lester: 45:30

Oh, my favorite book? Well, I'm gonna say leading in chaos, which is my partner's book. Leading in chaos is really a book about her life. She used to be well, she used to be deputy mayor. And prior to that, she used to work under Marion Barry in Washington, DC, during a time where it was actually the crack epidemic was really bad. So we at the time, she was dealing with people that, you know, had addictions and so forth. So the book was written several years back, but it's taken a new resurgence in it, I'll be honest with you. Mick, it's like reading a soap opera, because the stories almost seem unreal, but they are all true, and what does a leader do in that type of chaos? So there's a great, very quick read, great tidbits that are practical and unfortunately, they're relevant again, with some of the things that we're seeing now.

Mick Spiers: 46:30

Yeah, unfortunately, the chaos meter is off the scale again so.

Kelli Lester: 46:34

Yeah, so I J Neil, I didn't say the author, so yeah, it is off the meter right now.

Mick Spiers: 46:40

Yeah. All right, brilliant. What's your favorite quote?

Kelli Lester: 46:44

My favorite quote life is 10% what happens to me, and 90% how I react to it. I think people don't know the level of agency that we have. We often will look at what we don't have or what we can't do. And that mindset, that quote, it really was a life changer for me.

Mick Spiers: 47:06

Yeah, I love it. Kelli, and finally, there's going to be people listening to this, and particularly your seven steps of include intentional inclusion before really were quite mind blowing. There's going to be people listening listening to this that want to know more and to to step into this further. How do people find you, Kelli?

Kelli Lester: 47:23

Yes, thank you for asking. www.onyx2rise.com, www.onyx2rise.com.

Mick Spiers: 47:36

All right, brilliant, Kelli, thank you so much for sharing your gift with us today, the gift of your knowledge and your wisdom, and most importantly, the actionable insights that you've given us that we can all take at least one thing from what you've shared with us today and start putting it into action. Thank you so much.

Kelli Lester: 47:54

Yeah, thank you so much. First of all for having me.

Mick Spiers: 47:58

I hope you enjoyed this powerful conversation with Kelli Lester. So some questions for you, where in your organization might people feel they don't belong, even if they're included on paper, what systems, behaviors or unconscious habits might be quietly telling people this isn't for you, and as a leader, how often do you truly pause to listen without defending, without fixing or without explaining? Kelli Lester gave us a lot to think about today, from challenging performative DEI to embracing generational inclusion to letting go of ego so we can lead with greater awareness and impact. This isn't just about leadership practices. It's about leadership presence, the kind of presence that sees people, hears people, and creates the space for them to thrive. In the next episode, it's going to be a solo cast where I reflect on all of the powerful conversations that we've had during this past month. I'll share with you my key takeaways and add a few of my own thoughts about the topics we've covered and discuss what's happening in the world of leadership at the moment. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project, mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo And my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.