309. From Bottleneck to Catalyst: Unlocking Leadership Potential with Tracy Clark

Ever feel like your team has more to give—and you can’t quite unlock it? We dig into the uncomfortable truth that many leaders become bottlenecks without meaning to, then map a path to becoming a catalyst who unlocks energy, ownership, and momentum. With award-winning leadership and high performance coach Tracy Clark, we examine why strategy and skills (the “trunk”) only go so far, and how deeper work in mindset, self-awareness, and identity (the “roots”) drives real, sustained results.

Tracy shows how to close the gap between intention and impact by starting in the mirror. We get tactical about identity—moving from “think differently” to “be differently”—through immersive play, a one-line identity anchor like “I am a determined catalyst,” and a simple pre-meeting reset that shifts your state on demand. We also unpack her three-part definition of play as intense curiosity, radical open-mindedness, and proactive experimentation. Expect practical moves: rule-flipping core assumptions, designing low-risk tests, and letting silence do the work so your team steps up.

The conversation goes beyond personal change to collective momentum. We explore how to create a “team of catalysts” with shared behaviors that make independent thinking normal: surfacing tensions early, challenging assumptions weekly, shipping small experiments fast, and measuring learning alongside results. Along the way we connect empathy and deep listening to performance, drawing on ideas popularized by Chris Voss and the enduring truth that people remember how you make them feel.

If you’re ready to trade control for trust, certainty for curiosity, and busyness for leverage, this one’s for you. Listen, choose your one-word identity for the week, and try the catalyst experiment in your next meeting. If it sparks an insight, share the episode with a leader who needs it, subscribe on your favorite podcast app or YouTube, and leave a review to help others find the show.

🌐 Connect with Tracy Clark:
• Website: https://tracyclark.london/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracyclarkcoach/

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever achieved something impressive and still felt like you were leaving potential on the table? Have you ever looked at your team and wondered, why aren't we getting more out of this, more energy, more ownership, more momentum? And have you ever stopped to ask the harder question, what if the biggest limiter isn't them, but how I'm showing up as a leader. Today's conversation is all about leadership of self, because you don't unlock the full potential of others until you're willing to look honestly in the mirror. I'm joined by Tracy Clark, an award winning leadership and high performance coach and author of the upcoming book, let's play. In this episode, we explore the gap between intention and impact, why leaders unknowingly become bottlenecks instead of catalysts, and how curiosity, identity and play can radically change how you lead. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Tracy Clark. Tracy is an award winning leadership and high performance coach who helps founders and leaders to challenge the status quo of their industries and to create high performance teams. She's also the author of an upcoming book called let's play, and that will be one of the threads that we unpack today. What does that mean? What does it mean to incorporate an element of play and experimentation into your leadership? And what could it mean? There's many things to unpack today, so without any further ado. Tracy, I would love it if you would say hello to the audience and give us a little flavor of your quite accomplished background. 25 years in industry, what led you to do the work that you do today with leaders?

Tracy Clark: 1:58

Oh. Mick, thank you. Thank you for the kind introduction, and it's an honor to be here. And yes, welcome to all of the guests. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you. And yeah, that's a great starting question. So my brother and I built an international oil and gas events business. It grew the profit. We grew the profits by 450% over a period of four years, we won two international awards for for two queens, awards for international trade, which is very exciting. We got to go to Buckingham Palace to pick them up, and we worked with governments and ministers and heads of oil companies all over the world and in on paper, and then we sold the business for for an eight figure sum on paper, Mick, it looked like we had it all sorted out. High performance, you know, international recognition, success. But as you can imagine, it wasn't all plain sailing. We had oil price crashes, recessions, and we went through real some periods of real stress. We had a team of 150 people, and there were times of difficult conversations, and, yeah, real, real challenges. And in the in the sort of as we approach the exit, we knew that we were, we were might be missing something there was. We needed someone to help us take the business to the next level. So we hired in a consultant who was well recognized, and he started to it's a little bit nerve wracking, because you never know what people are going to find under the hood. But what we started to see with him was that our product was very, very strong, but where we might be missing and leaving potential on the on the table was around the people, and specifically understanding the psychology. So I got really, really fascinated by, well, what is this potential that we're living on the table, and if we could unlock it, what impact might we be able to have? And so I went on this sort of treasure hunt to really, really discover what is at the source of creating results. What is it that really, really moves the needle? And in that period, I trained to become a coach, and I've been through all sorts of qualifications, read loads of books that have really, really inspired me. And I started to realize that it was about getting to the source of understanding ourselves, understanding that we could unlock a better version of ourselves, and that that version of us as a leader could then have a ripple effect through the organization. And I realized that if we were leading potential on the table, there would be other founders out there and business leaders. Who might also not know what we didn't know. And so that's what I now do. I work with especially business owners, to really help them see how they can unlock their leadership potential and become a catalyst, which you and I have talked about, and really ignite and expand the potential of their team, so they are going further faster.

Mick Spiers: 5:25

They're really interesting, Tracy, there's three things I'm picking up already. I'll just play them back to you a little bit. Just a interesting observation that I haven't always thought about. A lot of people look at big industries and you're talking oil and gas, but it could be resources, finances. You know, we're talking, we're technology, big technology companies that, you know we're talking mega billion dollar valuation type entities, or even trillion dollars. And a lot of times, people look at it and go, Well, ah, it's okay for them. They're so big they're too big to fail. I think was a Enron kind of thing at one point. But when, when the market does change, when there's an something that happens could be a seasonal thing, could be a climate thing, something that happens that impacts the business. The magnitude of the impact is, is also bigger. So yeah, so with scale, the probability of a cyclical nature of that business becomes magnified, and then there's a there's a bunch of industries that are supporting that megalith that are at the end of that that are also being impacted. So everyone, the lesson here is everyone has to deal with disruption. There's no company in the world that is immune to that. The second thing was around this potential and unlocking the full potential. And what I see Tracy in a lot of circumstances, is a lot of people hiring all the time, like they're going, Okay, well, we just need more people. And what I'm saying to myself as I listen to you is, or pause for a second, are you getting the full potential out of the people you've got? Shouldn't you? Shouldn't you work with what you have before you just add more problems into the company potentially, like you're adding more weight doesn't necessarily make you more productive and unlock that full potential. Then the third one, which is really interesting to me is when you said that, is that it started with your own leadership potential. You didn't start with the people. You looked inwards, and you started with self. So what does it mean for a leader listening to this right now. That goes, Yeah, I do want to unlock the full potential of my team, but I'm hearing you ask them to look in the mirror first and start with self?

Tracy Clark: 7:52

Indeed, indeed. Because I think, as you've just said, when we think of leadership, we often think about, what do we have to do to the people around us, but you're right. We need to look in the mirror, because we need to understand the impact that we are having. Let's face it, we all have blind spots. And as I work with leaders, that's what I help them uncover. What is the impact that you might be having. And above all, what we look at is, What's your intention, and is there a gap between your intention and your impact? Because how many times have you maybe as a as a listener, really thought I've gone in I know what I want to the impact I want to create, and you think you've prepared, but then you're not getting the people having doing the work that you want them to do. Something is off. And what I found is that's why it's important to look at self understand, how am I showing up when I'm talking what is the impact I'm having? What impact am I? Am I unlocking and inspiring, or am I diminishing? Am I shutting down the people's potential? And then I take people a level deeper. So we want to look at not just what we do, but how we show up. So I like Mick to use the metaphor of a tree, and I look at the trunk, which is the visible part. To me, the trunk represents the strategy, the actions and the skills. That's where I think most people focus. What do I need to do? What do I need to learn to create this change. Yes, that's important, but what influences it more? Think of a tree, the the extent to which a tree is going to grow is dependent on the the depth and the strength of the roots and the roots for leadership. Mind and leadership of self represent mindset. What is our thought? What is our thinking? And when I went on this treasure hunt that I described after this, this consultant came in, I saw mindset, and I thought, oh, that's the Holy Grail. Just shift your thinking, and it's all going to work. But let's face it, that doesn't that doesn't always work. So I realized there was something else deeper. Then I started to realize it was understanding ourselves. What impact were we having that we weren't aware of self awareness, and then under that at the source is our identity. It's the story that we tell ourselves about who we are, and this is a phrase that I anchor with all of my clients, who and what you are conscious of being shapes your reality. So think about that for a moment. How much time do you spend being intentional about how you're showing up. Let me ask your listeners, have you thought about the version of you who will have achieved the impact and the goal you want if you have how much detail Have you gone into? Because that is the source. That is the first principle, and that is where we start, and that's why leadership of self is so so important.

Mick Spiers: 11:29

Yeah, really powerful. Tracy, so a few chapters there, I'm going to say, start with self awareness of the impact that you are having on others. And here's a sobering truth for the audience, you as the leader, are usually the difference between whether someone has a very good day at work or a very bad day at work, right? So that's that's a deep responsibility that you need to take. The second is this gap between intention and impact. Because I'm also going to tell you, Tracy, that I don't know any leader that wakes up in the morning and rubs their hands together and goes right, what can I do today to be a real jerk? You don't do it on purpose, but there's a gap between your intention and the impact that you're having, and you need to understand that gap, or you'll never get there. And then this metaphor of the tree that it's not just strategy and action that's going to get there, it's going to be about the deeper roots of how you think and how you show up, and what is your identity, what is the persona that you're projecting on the world, and is that under control, or is that just autopilot? And the word intention comes back now to go, who is it? Who are you? Who are you, and how are you going to show up to match the person that can achieve the thing that you're trying to achieve? And this word identity now comes in. Let's unpack it more around, what does this word identity mean to you? Tracy, and how can our audience embody this so that they know what to do with it.

Tracy Clark: 13:04

Yes, so identity isn't just thinking about who you want to be, it's about getting the clarity on how this version of you shows up. Who are you being when you are with your team. Who are you being when you're with your clients? So there's a real, real depth here. And when I transitioned from our company to being a coach on this while I while we were selling, I was building my coaching business, and I have clients, I thought I was doing well, well, I was doing well. And then when we sold, I realized something really curious. People would say to me, what do you do? And I'd go to introduce myself, and I promise you, it was like I had this noose around my neck. I was like, I'm a coach. And I thought, God, I've been doing this identity work. Why is it not working? And what I realized here Mick, was that I was thinking about it, but I wasn't immersing myself in being that version of me. So I had to take myself to this is part of the play, immersive play. I started to write about this version of myself, who I was, what I felt, what I what was the impact I was doing, all of this element in detail, and then I would take myself into being in the movie the future, in inverted commas, movie of myself. But remember, all there is is now. So I was, I was embodying this version of me in the moment. I was closing my eyes and seeing the impact I was having, and that is what created the shift. So don't just think about it be that. Version, immerse yourself in the movie of yourself, write about that version of yourself as though you are that person now, and that is the key difference. That's what really moves the needle.

Mick Spiers: 15:15

Okay, let me play with this for a while. I use the word play for a moment, but let me play with this for a while and see if I'm getting it, and if I'm getting it, we can pass it to the audience and get them to do the same. So what I'm what I'm hearing, is to really think about the story I'm telling myself, about myself, about who I am and who I aspire to be. That's a catalyst for my own change. And we'll come back to that word catalyst again later, but first starting with who would I be proud to be, and who do I need to be to be able to achieve this vision that I'm trying to achieve? And I might tell myself things like and I have this thing called a leadership credo, and it always starts with the words, I'm the kind of leader who and I finish it with sentences like this, like I'm the kind of leader who remains calm in a crisis. I'm the kind of leader who deeply listens to my team. I'm the kind of leader who would never embarrass someone in front of their so there's also some negative statements of things that I would never do some boundaries. So I'm setting myself some behavioral values that say I'm the kind of leader who would do this, but I'm also the kind of leader who would never do this, right? And by the way, they're all They're all from lessons learned of leaders I've had in the past, of things that I liked and didn't like. And then build my own model of leadership. Then what I do is I trans that translate that into an intention of how I'm going to show up. So if I'm the if I'm telling myself that I'm the kind of leader who remains calm in a crisis, and I'm about to go into a pretty tense meeting, I better remind myself of that before I go into the meeting, so that I do show up as the leader who remains calm in a crisis, is that what I'm hearing?

Tracy Clark: 17:05

Yes, and I'm going to add a little bit more of a nuance there. So yes, there's the doing. How am I behaving? One of the things that people sometimes ask me is, but is this authentic? And what I you create this version of you, so don't just look at what you're doing. Think about who am I, what do I stand for? What are my values? What feels congruent and aligned? So that is absolutely essential. So there's a depth to this version. Who am I? What do I stand for? How do I want people to experience me, what's the impact I really want to have that is one element and then, yes, we can absolutely have more detail, but what I encourage people to do is to come up with one line that helps them reset and re anchor into this identity. So I play with the word catalyst. I love the concept of a catalyst. So a catalyst really sparks the reaction, accelerates the reaction without consuming themselves. So when I say the word catalyst often to my clients, they're like, they feel this ripple. And few of them go, that's who I want to be. I want to be catalyst in my organization, for my people and for my results. And then this is where the nuance comes in. And I was thinking about a gentleman that I was coaching the other week. I was like, let's define this version of catalyst, and he's going through a huge transformation at the moment. And so I was like, what is one adjective that might support you to really step into this version of you who knows he's going to get through and thrive in this transformation. And he came up with the word determined. I am a determined catalyst and and what I want people to feel, it's to feel, it to be visceral in your body, so that there's a it's a motive, and then before you walk in to a high stakes meeting, or maybe when you get out of bed in the morning, you intentionally set that, set that desire to be, this is who I am. I am a determined Catalyst, and that will have the ripple effect of putting you into this state. Often, there's some energy in there, there's focus, that there's intentionality, and sums up all of that document that we would have written.

Mick Spiers: 19:50

Yeah, really good, Tracy, I feel like I'm getting a free coaching session here. I'll explain why in a moment. So couple of two key things I'm hearing there, I'm going to come back to the author. Authenticity part. So when we tell ourselves this story, I'm going to play something with you and see, let's start one at a time, so we don't confuse the topics. Want to play something back to you and make sure that my extrapolation makes sense. So when I heard you talking about that, the story we tell ourselves about in ourselves, in our head, it could be either externally driven, where we think about what others are expecting of us or or what leaders did before us or, and it's the external expectation, I think, if you show up just based on that, it runs the risk of inauthenticity, whereas what I heard from you is it needs to be rooted in your values. So you're you're not saying that. You know, I am the kind of leader who, and I'm going to come back to your sentence in a moment. I'm the kind of leader who, when you finish the sentence, it needs to be something from you, something that you would be proud of, not something of, oh, well, I'm the boss, I guess I should. If you're using words, I should, it's not authentic. If it's coming from you, it's I am, not I should, and I should is an external expectation. I am is an internally driven value. How does that sit with you?

Tracy Clark: 21:21

It sits perfectly with me and exactly that. It's internal and it's understanding and where, where I so we work. I work with people on this, but I work also deeply on the self awareness as well. I use the Enneagram. Do you know the Enneagram? Yes, and really looking at motivations. And what I love about the Enneagram is it doesn't just box you and say, This is who you are.

Mick Spiers: 21:45

You're two. Oh yeah.

Tracy Clark: 21:46

Yeah, you're two, or you're an eight. And it's very much around this is what you resonate and then I always focus on we're charting paths of growth. So as we're looking at this future version of yourself, we're going, this is what might feel more natural. Now, how can we make you even more impactful that still feels congruent? So sometimes we can have people that are a lot of the leaders I work with, a really strong minded their founders who are challenging the status quo. They've got big dreams, and they can come in sometimes a bit I want to make this happen. It's all the weights on my shoulders. So sometimes can be a bit too aggressive, and I show them that a line of growth is, let's keep the assertiveness on the go from the eight to the two, and let's put in a little bit of care. And let's look at how we can be loving firmness. How can we really create that impact? So I'm stretching them to think what that next level of impact is greater than what they know now.

Mick Spiers: 22:56

Yeah, really good.

Tracy Clark: 22:57

Authentic. It means 100% be authentic.

Mick Spiers: 23:02

Really good. All right, so let me come back to the free coaching part that I was talking about that was probably an odd comment to make, but I'm playing all these things out in my head about how I show up Tracy as we as we talk, right? So, so, and my homework that I'll go and do the deep work in in the coming days will be to try to convert it into one word or one phrase. Because when I do this kind of talk to myself about, you know, who I am, I talk about a leader who does deeply care for their team, that that empowers and trusts them, that creates the environment where they can do their very best work, that deeply listens to them, that makes that makes them feel seen, makes them feel heard, makes them feel valued. And then what I do is with my intentional showing up based on the situation, so a bit of adaptive and situational leadership for each meeting, I go okay today or okay for this meeting, I need to show up as curious for this meeting. I need to show up as inspirational for this meeting. I need to, you know, depending on going to be on this one, I'm going to going to be the the, almost like the the person that sits in the room and says nothing until the very end and summarizes so, so, so I do do a lot of intention, but I think what I can take from your work is I need to refine it more. Because at the moment, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of an amalgam of multiple ideas, and I need to refine it a bit more, so that's what I'll be doing. And I encourage the the audience to do the same.

Tracy Clark: 24:29

Absolutely and Mick, all of those qualities, everything that you were describing there, I love. And to me, that's what the word catalyst, almost bodies. It's like you are it. You have that feeling of you're going to have that ripple effect by doing all of those elements that you're doing. That's why I particularly love the word catalyst. And what I find with people is I often say some often when they come to me, they're saying, oh, you know. I'm working more than ever. I've got I've got this team, but I've got the weight of the business on my shoulders. Why is this? It can be because in inadvertently, they're being the bottleneck. Everything is having to go through them. So in the book that I'm writing, I really talk about, how do we play with the leadership shift from bottleneck to catalyst? And that is, I think, can be quite a simple way of looking, looking at it. Go, where might I be being a bottleneck. Can feel uncomfortable to go there, but just be curious. Be vulnerable, sit in that space, then think about, what would a catalyst? How would a catalyst? A leader? That's a catalyst? How would they approach this same situation? And that's why I like the word catalyst, and you're hearing me will use the word play, and I know we'll unpack that surely.

Mick Spiers: 26:02

Yeah, we'll go to that in a minute. In fact, I think that's probably the next logical thing for us to go to. There's another thing I'm going to come back full circle here for a second, around catalyst versus bottleneck. I'm going to say that the people that have become a bottleneck over time. I'm going to say that they, they didn't intend to do that, right? So coming back to intent, intention and impact. Look at look at yourself in the mirror. This is another challenge to the audience right now. I'm sure you didn't intend to become a bottleneck, but have you become a bottleneck? So really think about Tracy's words and give yourself an honest scorecard. Could be in a meeting that you go into today. Just stop and ask yourself, hang on a second. My being the bottleneck here, or am I being the catalyst? And what would I need to subtly shift to be the catalyst instead of the bottleneck? Because I'm sure you didn't intend it, unless you're a complete narcissist, I'm sure you didn't intend it, but you could be the thing that's holding your team back. You might be suffocating them, and they're going home frustrated every day that they didn't have a chance to do more. You thought you were doing great, you thought you were being the custodian, the caretaker, etc, or, you know, giving them great love and care, but in reality, you suffocated them, and you were the bottleneck, not the catalyst, and then make some subtle shifts. How does that sit with you, Tracy?

Tracy Clark: 27:31

Oh, it just sits perfectly, because people do what I find with the leaders I work with. They do care, and when they realize they're being them bottleneck. It unnerves them, actually, and it almost saddens them. So actually, that's why leadership of self, with a lot of a big hug around yourself to go It's okay. This is a journey we all need to grow. Let's just look in the mirror and then realize we can all grow. And when we understand by going to the to the bottom of my tree, to the roots, that it starts with that concept of yourself, we can create that impact. And that's what I love about it. It's about taking radical ownership for who you're being and the stories you tell yourself. We can all change our stories and upgrade them.

Mick Spiers: 28:24

Absolutely. You hold the pen. It's not written for you. You hold the pen. Okay, brilliant. All right, so we've played with the word play for almost half an hour now, Tracy, we need to put the audience out of their misery. What does play mean to Tracy Clark?

Tracy Clark: 28:38

Okay, so I'm going to tell you a little bit about how I how I discovered this. Because I discovered it by chance. I started to realize that there were two words I was starting to say when I was with business owners, high stakes environment. They were coming to me. They were challenged, challenge often. You know that that feeling when you've got a real crisis, and you come to talk to someone, and your jaws clenched and your shoulders are hunched and and I'd, I'd say to them, let's play a minute. And I started to notice I was saying these two words, and I see the impact, the jaw would unclench, the shoulders would would relax and a bit of sparkle in the eyes, and then I'd start to ask them lots of questions, and I'd find that their best thinking started to come because they were more relaxed. So I think of play, not as a frivolous activity, the state of being that has three powerful threads. The first one, intense curiosity, radical open mindedness and proactive experimentation. So I get what I say, let's play. I'm encouraging people to. Not to be curious. Let's really look at this. And just as you asked your your listeners a minute ago, just go think about if you're being the bottleneck. Just be open minded, no judgment. Be completely open. Because if you're open, and you find that, what if I am the bottleneck that shift, that changes everything. And then from there we go into, let's experiment. And that's what I'd encourage your listeners to do, is to some people are can be a bit skeptical. Oh, it's all about this identity, and it's a bit of thinking, playing with it, be curious, be open minded and experiment. Because when you enter something with that spirit, you will see you look to your own experience. You will see that it shifts. So that is my that's how I define play.

Mick Spiers: 31:01

Yeah, really interesting. Okay, so we're we're stepping into curiosity with radical open mindness And and then we're going to experiment with what. What does it mean if the answer is yes, if the answer is no, it's almost like mental experimentation of, Oh yeah, okay. That's an interesting way of looking at it. When I hear you, there were a few things that jumped into my mind, Tracy about the curiosity and the radical open mindedness. And that is another challenge for the audience here. And I think if you're honest with yourself, you fall into this trap more often than you think, to make sure that when you're listening, that you're not just listening to hear things that confirm what you already believe. You're actually purposely trying to seed some contradiction in there to test your assumptions. So if you've always believed X, what if it was Y? Purposely, purposely challenge your assumption to make sure that you are listening with radical open mindedness, not just hearing what you want to hear, or hearing what confirms what you already believe. And if you go into any conversation only hearing the things that you already believe, you walk away from the conversation no wiser, and the other person doesn't feel seen, heard and valued, coming back to some of the things that we're talking about before. So this this curiosity and this open mindedness. I think it's, it's the radical open mindedness has got my attention. Tracy, that's, this is where I'm going with this is you're not just listening with an open mind. You're listening with a challenging mind, almost like a black hat, thinking of, well, what if i What if I am the bad guy here?

Tracy Clark: 32:40

Yes, absolutely. So you've hit it on the head. It starts with the listening. You need to really listen, to really be open, to really hear different ideas. And then it's sitting with, well, what if? What if some of these elements or thoughts insights that I'm hearing that contradict my way of thinking? What if they are true? And I think this is part of modern leadership. It's being really, really open and really bringing in our our team. I believe that the next, this generation that are coming into the workforce, they want to be stretched. I always think of Dan Pink's work that on drive what? What motivates people? Purpose, mastery and autonomy. Stretch them. Stretch them, challenge them, let them feel that you're open to their thinking, rather than them having the experience of he's asked the question or she's asked the question, but she doesn't really care. Go in and be open. That's the what first part. The second part is coming into the radical open mindedness. It's, it's one of my favorite parts is challenge assumptions. So I think of a bit about rule flipping, flipping some of the rules that you have hold held to be true. And I would encourage all of your listeners to take some time. You can do it with your team, or you can do it by yourself. To start with, think about the assumptions that you hold to be true, for example, about your market, about your client, about your team, about yourself. Write down some of these elements that you believe are pretty firm truths, and then go in and play and be curious, what if that isn't right? What shifts, if there's the opposite to that, and it's about loosening and opening up. And what I find when I do this with clients, they start to get light bulbs of things that they can do with their product. With. Clients new approaches that they hadn't thought of before. So don't accept the SAS status quo. Challenge it, but challenge it by being conscious of going in with this playful state of mind. And it's not about some might be good, some might not be good. That's okay. Play an experiment and then go out and test some of them, test and see, do they work? Because that's how we're going to create seismic change in this new world that we're living in.

Mick Spiers: 35:32

Yeah, this, this is taking things to a new level, Tracy, and I'll explain why as I summarize that back to you. So the challenging assumptions. The first thing is, if we're honest with ourselves, we make hundreds of assumptions every day, every meeting we go into every conversation we have. If you find yourself saying something like, oh, that that person only did that because and you're finishing the sentence, you've made an assumption, whether it's a client, a team member, your loving partner, whoever, if you're if you're saying those kind of things in your head, you just made an assumption. First level, which is something that I've practiced in the past, Tracy, is to go, do I know that to be true? Do I know that to be true? So that's how I challenge assumptions today. But what I'm hearing from you now, which is next level is you're then asking the question, well, what if it's not true? What if it's not true? And what? What does the opposite look like? Or something tangential, it might not be 180 degree opposite, but it might be that you miss the mark completely, and it's actually over here somewhere. And if we do that, what if analysis, with the radical open mindedness, we're going to unlock something new. That's what I'm hearing. How does that sit with you?

Tracy Clark: 36:49

It sits perfectly and go back to being the catalyst. When you find something that a new true, a new way of looking at things, that's when you can have a ripple effect. So do this to your by yourself, but do it with your team as well, because that's inspiring them to think differently. And I always say to leaders, one of your responsibilities is to help develop the thinking, the thinking muscle of your team, so that when you're not there, but you, they can't be dependent on you. They're going, Oh, Tracy, or Mick, Mick. This is how we did it. Train them to think, give them what if. And that's what I love about, if you talk about something like, you know, rule flipping again, oh yeah. What else could we do? It's playful, it's light, but it's something they're going to remember and be inspired by and be stretched and go, yeah, let me have a go.

Mick Spiers: 37:49

What I love here. Tracy, coming back to our word catalyst again. Now if we coach our teams to do this when we're not even in the room, well, now we're a catalyst that hasn't him a lasting and long, lasting impact. Long after we left the room, maybe even after we left the business, you've left people behind that that can have that playful experimentation, the radical open mindedness, the curiosity to get out there and go, oh yeah, what if? What if, and you're not even in the room anymore, absolutely.

Tracy Clark: 38:23

And actually, as you were talking, I just remembered last week I was working, so I work with CEOs and their leadership team, and I work on this identity with the individuals, but then also with the leadership team, so that they have an identity of the versions of them who are going to create the results that they want. And last week, we talked about them being a team of catalysts. And you could feel the energy in the room. They were all starting to think, with the curiosity, with the open mindedness, with the experimentation. And you could see that they were getting excited by Oh, wow, if we show up like that. Look at the impact we have on our clients. Wow. Look at how we could develop this product. So get the team to have an identity that is meaningful as well.

Mick Spiers: 39:15

Yeah, we are a team that and once again, have have a phrase or a statement for the team that's not just the leader's identity. That's really powerful. All right, Tracy, there's going to be people that, without any doubt, are listening to this, and their mind is expanded, but they may be sitting here going, sounds really powerful. I want to do this, but they don't know how to take the first step. What would the first step look like?

Tracy Clark: 39:42

The first step in becoming the catalyst. Is that the question.

Mick Spiers: 39:46

the first step in play? Let's call it the first step in play. Yeah.

Tracy Clark: 39:50

Oh, in play. Okay, so one of the things actually, I am aware you did it actually, just before our session, I have a leadership school card. It, which is where that's what I'd encourage people to do, is go on to it, or they have really created this scorecard that enables them to understand how to be curious and open minded at each level of the roots, and how they can then use play to unlock other indicators of success. So how can you use play to gain more clarity, clarity in your vision, clarity in the version of you who is going to achieve that vision. That's why we want to start. So play in clarity. Play in really be curious then about the level of conviction you have. So be curious and open minded. What is my belief, the belief that I have in myself? What is the belief that my team has? What is the belief that they're picking up from me? And then, what is the belief that we have in our product? In this scorecard, I guide you through it. It's free, it's a few questions, and then, as you've seen, you get a report. So I would say, stop there, and that will give you some as you've seen from the report, there are a lot of questions and a lot of questions, a lot of experiments that you can actually do. I'm big about giving, and so I want people to not just take a take a report, but actually to come away with something that they can implement. But my goal, too would be play to drive, be curious on clarity. How can I get more clarity? How can I get more How can I be even more courageous? How can I be more just to challenge those stop chance I go through.

Mick Spiers: 41:44

So I'm going to say, with that, challenge your fears as well. Challenge the things that have been stopped. If you've always wanted to do it, but you've always pulled yourself back, well, what? Why? What was the assumption or the fear that that stopped you from taking those actions? It's really good. Tracy, so I did do the the questionnaire, and I've got the report, and it was enlightening for me. I answered it very honestly, and it gave me a lot to take away. So I encourage the audience. We'll put the link in the show notes. I encourage you to look at Tracy's questionnaire here and then deeply read the report. Read the report with radical open mindedness,

Tracy Clark: 42:22

Yes, and experiment. There are all sorts of part of in my book, I talk about play also, part of the way we're going to create shifts is by making play immersive, really going to that future version of yourself. In the report, I will guide you through how to do that, because it's when we immerse ourselves in it, that's when we shift our state, and we really shift that concept of who we're being.

Mick Spiers: 42:49

Really good. Tracy, okay, well, thank you. We've covered lots of ground here. I'm going to summarize a few key points, and then we're going to go to our final round. The same questions we ask all of I guess. So if you're listening to the show, what are we talking about here? We're talking about unlocking the full potential of your team. But that starts with self that you as a leader, you have a great responsibility. You have a huge impact on all of those that you deal with every day, and that's a responsibility that you need to take seriously. There's a good chance that you're the impact that you're having doesn't match your intention, so you're not a bad person, but you need to be honest that despite good intentions, the impact that you're having might not match what you intended, and to be able to shift that, you need to get to your identity, start with self, look at yourself in the mirror and think about rewriting the story that you tell yourself about yourself, and to create that narrative into the to create the person of who you would be proud to be and who would achieve the things that you're trying to achieve. Then from understanding who that person is, then we can come back to intentionally showing up in the way that that person would show up. And this is when you can start being a real catalyst in your business. That then starts with the honest question today, are you the catalyst or are you the bottleneck? And what do you need to do differently to become the catalyst instead of the bottleneck? And that's something really huge, a toolkit that you can use to do there is to open up with this play concept that that Tracy has this Let's Play, to start with curiosity, to have the radical open mindedness and the experimentation the radical open mindedness, not to just ask yourself questions, do I know this to be true. Ask yourself, What if the opposite was true? Really challenge your thinking and stop just being on autopilot of thinking that you know all the answers. And once you do that, you can start rule flipping and state shifting and really, really starting to be the catalyst in your business and the meta. Better level is then to coach your team to do it as well, and then they start doing it even when you're not in the room. And then you're an everlasting catalyst. If you're able to get to that level.

Tracy Clark: 45:12

Can I just add one more? Can I just add one more thing? So also, when all of that was 100% perfect, and then what I'd also encourage is to take these three threads of Let's Play curiosity, open mindedness and experimentation, and really apply that to self awareness, because putting the mirror up can feel a little bit vulnerable, but this is where we use play to step into courage and to look at ourselves. And when we look in the mirror, we can really start to learn what we can do and how we can shift. So use play to uncover the blind spots. Use play to become that best version of yourself.

Mick Spiers: 45:55

What I like there, Tracy, I'm just going to build on that one and bounce off it is using the word, let's play with that. It avoids the risk of just becoming self critical and and bashing yourself up as No, that's not what this is about. Self awareness, yes, becoming better, yes, but not bad, not bashing yourself up. Just play with it. How does that sit with you?

Tracy Clark: 46:19

It sits perfectly. And that's what I love about this state of being, of play. There's a lightness to it, and that lightness when we look at our brain, when our brain feels threatened, it shuts down, fight, flight, freeze, play, oh, it just opens you. It opens you up to possibility. And isn't that what we want in a world that's changing, where you're in a business, where you might have a lot of stress, we want to take you to that state so that you are you're unlocking your best thinking.

Mick Spiers: 46:50

Yeah, really powerful. All right, excellent. So let's go to our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests. What's the one thing that you know now? Tracy Clark, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Tracy Clark: 47:03

That who on what we are conscious of being shapes our reality. If I had known that, that would have changed everything massively. And when I'm working with clients, I keep coming back to anchoring this. It's about radical responsibility. So that's what I would have loved to have known.

Mick Spiers: 47:23

And that's perfectly congruent with who you are today. Tracy and and the work that you do and the conversation we've had today were really beautiful. What's your favorite book?

Tracy Clark: 47:32

Do you know I struggled with this one? Mick, I'm an avid reader, and I read a lot, and I landed on Chris boss's never split the difference. Because for me, what that shows is that negotiation and business isn't just around having lots of tactics. It's really around human connection. And what he shows is the power of empathy and deep listening. So that's what I love. That's why I love that book. It's one I get back to

Mick Spiers: 48:03

Very powerful. What's your favorite quote?

Tracy Clark: 48:06

It is from Maya Angelou. People will forget what you did. People will forget what you said, maybe not in this order, but people will never forget how you made them feel. And I think this applies to leaders so much. When we go back to the impact, the the intention and the impact, we often focus on what we're saying, but focus on how we're making people feel, and that's gonna that's part of what helps you be the catalyst.

Mick Spiers: 48:38

Yeah, really good. Tracy, very, very powerful. And finally, people are going to be inspired by this. We will be putting the link in the show notes to the questionnaire. But if people want to connect with you personally, how do people find you and your work?

Tracy Clark: 48:51

Yeah, best way is through LinkedIn. So I'm Tracy Clark coach. Tracy Clark, as you can see, with no ease, Tracy Clark coach is probably the best place, and you can DM me there. Also my website, Tracy Clark, dot London, those are good places to be.

Mick Spiers: 49:08

All right, brilliant, Tracy, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I feel richer for having this conversation, and you've given me actions that I will go and exercise in the coming weeks, particularly around this radical open mindedness, and getting back to my identity and maybe refining it with more clarity, and taking the questionnaire that I filled in and challenging myself to step in with more clarity and more courage. Thank you so much, and I know the audience is going to do the same.

Tracy Clark: 49:41

Thank you. Mick, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Mick Spiers: 49:44

What a powerful conversation with Tracy Clark, there's one message to take away from this conversation. It's this, you don't lead through strategy alone. You lead through who you are being and who you are becoming. Tracy. Reminded us that leadership starts with self awareness. The gap between intention and impact matters more than we think, and that when leaders become bottlenecks, it's rarely intentional, but it is consequential. So here are a few questions for you to sit with after this episode, where might I be unintentionally limiting my team's potential? Am I showing up as a catalyst or a bottleneck, and what would shift if I led with more curiosity, openness and experimentation? Your action this week is simple but powerful. Pick, one moment, one meeting, one conversation, and consciously choose to lead as a catalyst, not as a controller. Pause, get curious, lower the threat and notice the ripple effect. In our next episode, we're going to move from leadership of self to leadership through empathy. We're joined by Melinda McCormack, the author of the book pulse, where empathy becomes your edge, and we explore what happens when leaders ignore the emotional reality of change you've been listening to the leadership project. If today sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work editing every episode, and to my amazing wife, Sei, who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible. None of this happens without them around here. We believe leadership is a practice, not a position, that people should feel seen, heard, valued and that they matter, that the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity and control for trust. If that resonates with you, please subscribe on YouTube and on your favorite podcast app, and if you want more, follow me on LinkedIn and explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing until next time. Lead with curiosity, courage and care.