335. The Best Ideas Don’t Always Win: Why Clarity and Connection Matter with Antoinette Roze

The clearest idea usually wins, even when it isn’t the smartest one and that reality quietly shapes careers, meetings, and entire strategies. I’m joined by Antoniette Roze, founder and CEO of WPC Speakers Global and host of the Speak Pact Podcast, to get practical about how leaders communicate complex ideas so people actually understand them, remember them, and act on them.

We dig into why executive communication is not about delivering more information, but creating understanding. Antoniette shares how to design for “one micro transformation” so your audience leaves with a single meaningful insight and a clear next step, instead of 36 steps they’ll forget by lunch. We talk about speaking at a “fifth grade level” without dumbing anything down, how to reverse engineer a big project into base-camp actions, and why repeating the message and having people reflect it back can prevent costly misalignment.

Then we go beyond presentations and into real-time leadership moments: brainstorming sessions, town halls, and high-stakes meetings where ideas compete. Antoniette explains why positioning comes before clarity, how connection is built through truly listening, and how leaders create buy-in by building on others’ ideas rather than broadcasting their own. We also unpack why brilliant experts sometimes stay hidden, how to create safe spaces for imperfect thinking, and how humility and visibility can coexist when you stay human and relatable.

If you want better leadership communication, stronger stakeholder buy-in, and clearer public speaking skills, hit play, then subscribe, share the episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more leaders can find the show.

🌐 Connect with Antoniette:
• Website: https://www.speakerbooker.com/
https://speakpact.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/1antoniette/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/1antoniette/

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever had a great idea but struggled to get people to see what you could see? Have you ever tried to explain something important only to realize that your audience was overwhelmed, confused, or simply not ready for the full picture? And have you ever noticed that in meetings, presentations, or even conferences-the best idea does not always win. The idea communicated with the most clarity often does. Today, I'm joined by Antoinette Roze. Antoinette is the founder and CEO of WPC Speakers Global and the host of the Speak Packed podcast, she works with speakers, experts, and leaders to help them position their message, communicate with impact, and turn powerful ideas into something people can understand, remember, and act on. And this conversation is not just for keynote speakers, it is for every leader who has ever had to communicate a complex idea. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. Have an interesting one for you today. We're joined by Antoinette Roze, who's the founder and CEO of WPC Speakers Global, and the host of a podcast called Speak to Pact. And what Antoinette does, is she helps leaders that have got fantastic ideas to be able to cut through and get gigs, get speaking gigs, get booked by booking agents. The ability to capture someone's attention to the point where they want to book them to speak as a keynote speaker at a conference. Now you're probably scratching head, going, "Well, that's not what we normally talk about at The Leadership Project." But there's a skill here that we want to unpack, and what I want to share with you is that the best ideas in the workplace aren't always the ideas that win. It's the ideas that are communicated with clarity are the ones that win through. So, what we're going to be talking about today is how do you do that if you're in a brainstorming session, if you're in a team meeting, if you're if you're asked to do a presentation on behalf of your company, either internally or externally? How do you convert what might be a complex message into something that you can communicate with clarity? So, without any further ado, Antoinette, I would love it if you would say hello to the audience, give us a little flavor of your own background, but most importantly, what inspires you to do the work that you do today?

Antoinette Roze: 2:41

Thank you, Mick, for having me. I have enjoyed The Leadership Project myself, and I'm thrilled to be a guest today. So, what inspired me? It actually started pretty young. I won't go all the way deep into the story because it would take take a good portion of this show. But I do go deep into it on Speak Pact. If anybody wanted the deeper story, and it essentially happened when I was diagnosed with stage four very young, and was thrown into a situation where we didn't know what the solutions were, we didn't really have the information. It was before AI. It was way before AI. Way way before even the internet. But still, even the bits and pieces we were getting of possible solutions were so fragmented. So when I emerged from that at a very young age, I decided I was going to help people find solutions, make them more accessible. I didn't know how I was going to do it. I certainly did not foresee the internet coming around, but even today, in the age of digital knowledge and automated intelligence, all of that, the human has to be the one to discern, and you get that eventually through multiple companies. I've gotten to enjoy great success in the industry for about 30 years. I started off as a producer, and then as a typical agent, and now we have a completely different model at WPC Speakers Global, and it's all took leadership because it took the ability to evolve with all the big changes that were going on, so that it could still be effective in that initial drive, which was to make sure that people had tangible solutions when they needed them, where they were looking for them. So, what better way than to be a podcaster or a speaker? Right, the people who are there in the audience are looking for answers. Same thing in the workplace, whether it's corporate or nonprofit and association. People are there because hopefully they believe in the company that they work for. They certainly want to do a good job, and you, as their leader, need to be able to give them the solutions that they. Need in order to do the best job that they can do.

Mick Spiers: 5:04

Yeah, this is really interesting. There's a few things that are already emerging for me, Antoinette. And first of all, really sorry that you went through that at such a young age, but so glad that you're with us, fit and strong and healthy today. It must have been a hell of experience to go through, and and certainly it helps you channel yourself and find some purpose. The things that captured my attention is that yeah, in in you you and I and our life lifetime and probably the majority of the audience, our communication mediums and our communication platforms have evolved dramatically. There's things that exist today that none of us dreamt of, but two things didn't change. You said that humans are the ones that are going to be making decisions here. The humans didn't change. We're still talking to humans regardless of the communication medium. And the what are humans looking for? They're looking for solutions. Those the two things didn't change, regardless of the change in medium. So what does this mean? That like when we're, let's say that we're preparing for any form of communication, written, oral, podcast, keynote speaker at a conference. What does that mean in terms of how I need to approach this-that I'm talking to human beings that are going to be discernible, and those human beings are looking for solutions, or they're looking for answers.

Antoinette Roze: 6:30

To mingle. Whether you're in front of your teams or you are in front of an audience, a lot of CEOs, CFOs, a lot of C-suite leadership have to present on behalf of their company in different different formats. Whoever it is that you are in front of, you are not an information giver. We can get information all day long, very easily anymore, especially in our world. What you're looking for is one micro transformation. One one micro aha moment for them that they can then hang their hat on, go do the thing, and then they're ready for the next thing. It's kind of like I don't want to mix my metaphors here. It's kind of like a chain, right? If there's one link missing in that chain, the chain isn't very useful if you want the whole length of the chain, right? So if you want the full strength, it's not going to happen if there's a link missing. So I think what a lot of leaders do without knowing it, they think they're doing the right thing, is they talk way above their people. Number one, and they try to give all the chinks of the chain. Really, it just needs to be the next one, maximum next three. Let's get that down, and then we can go on to the next. If you really want those other leaders, right, those emerging leaders within your organization, to be able to really get it. Master the next piece. They're better for you. They're better for those who are working around them, and they are happier with themselves because they don't feel like a complete failure. They feel like, aha, I've mastered this. I'm ready for the next thing. Versus, oh my gosh, you told me to do 15 different things, and I'm not doing any of them well.

Mick Spiers: 8:22

Yeah. Okay. Really interesting. So there's a couple of key messages there that we're not there to communicate information. I think we need to unpack that a little bit more in a second. The second one, when you said about mingling, I tell you what jumped into my mind was we say this as a throwaway line, but we need to convert into something that's actionable and meaningful, and that's know your audience, right? So when I when I heard you say mingle, I'm thinking know my audience, and and what I'm taking away from that is where is my audience now, and what is the next step that they need to take, and then the third one, I'm going to use the word connection, but I'm also going to say, like when I think about your links in the chain, that if I've got 36 things in my mind, and this is something I've been working on for months or years, and I'm about to communicate it to an audience that is about to hear it for the first time, they're not ready to hear the 36 things. They might need a vision of where is this going, but what they really need is what's the first step or the first two steps. How does that sit with you?

Antoinette Roze: 9:33

That's exactly right. And not only that, I'm going to go a step further, which may feel insulting, but it's not. You always present at a fifth grade level, even if it's a presentation to your board or to possible investors. Fifth grade level, not because they're not highly intelligent people, but they are distracted. A lot of the. Information you're going to be bringing to bringing to them, just like you just now said, Mick is brand new. So they're trying to connect all the links to catch up to what's common daily languaging and concepts to you because you live it every single day. They don't live your world, so you speak at a fifth grade level, because your number one goal is that they get that next link in the chink, right? They get that next piece that they need, and they can go on. So I think if you're if you're highly intelligent, it gets a little harder, right? Who was it that wrote? If I had more time, I would write a shorter letter. I think that it could very well parallel. If I was a little more aware, I would dumb it down. It's not because they're not smart; it's because you care enough that they get the foundation that you can build on. Because then they're with you. If you lose them, you lose them.

Mick Spiers: 10:59

They're really good. You've blown your wages there. Only for a funny thing, I used that quote in the workplace yesterday with a with someone that was trying to, and this was in literally was emails. They've been sending people emails that are six pages long and just losing losing everyone. And yeah, the quote when I researched it, it's yeah most people think it's Mark Twain, and there's a there's actually debate as to whether it was Mark Twain or Pascal, and and whether Mark Twain stole it. But yeah, I didn't have time to write you a short letter. So here's a long one type thing. This is at the heart of your message, and it is actually a combination that you've probably been working on this topic that you're now about to present to everyone. You've been working on it for months. Your audience is hearing it for the first time. So if you if you start at the end of the journey, they're lost before you even start. All right. So I want to unpack that thing you said before. That was really interesting, and I think we do get stuck on this. You're not there to communicate information.

Antoinette Roze: 12:00

If you're not there to communicate information, what are you there to communicate? Understanding. So if I understand, if it becomes tangible to me, if you have nourished me with an aha moment, you've nourished me with something that I needed to be able to perform at a higher level, to connect all the dots, I'm mixing all kinds of metaphors, but you've nourished me, so I am number one. Not going to forget you. People will forget what you tell them; they will never forget how you made them feel. So, if you connected some dots for me, and a light bulb went off, and I'm like "Ah, okay, I've got it. Good, I'm good. I can go do the thing now." That's what you're looking for. You can dump all kinds of information on them, and a confused mind does. I always say, confused mind doesn't buy, but also a confused mind does not retain. They go on overload. Okay, so I'm very Italian, and we love to cook. And I there was this time I was making raviolis with my grandfather Ignazio, and I was really really excited to eat these raviolis. So I get to the table. I'm a tiny little girl, and my you know my head barely goes over the table, and there's just this mountain of raviolis on my plate, and I'm like, holy goodness, how am I going to eat this? And so I would, you know, eat two or three minute raviolis. That was good. That was good for me. That's all I wanted. But on an Italian table, that's an insult. I was supposed to eat the whole thing, and I'm like, Rabbi, I love this. I love this, but it's too much, right? And that's the last way that you want to leave your people, or any audience, where they just have their hands up saying, "It's great, I love it, I love what you're saying, but it's too much. I just can't, right?" That's give them just enough, less than you think they need. Make sure they get it thoroughly. They feel triumphant when they leave that meeting or that one-to-one session, whatever the situation is, and let them digest, and then schedule a time for the next.

Mick Spiers: 14:14

Yeah, really good. I I love the metaphor, and so

the key message here is: 14:17

if you try to communicate 36 things, they're gonna they're gonna remember exactly zero of them, and they're and they're just gonna freeze. They're gonna freeze in spot. They they don't know what they need to do next. And coming to your point, they're not there for information. They're there for solutions, and the solution is what gets them unstuck from wherever they are today. You're there to meet a need. And now I'm going to come back to you mingling. When you know where they are today, you can help them find the next step. That's all they need. They don't need the 36 steps. They need them. They need the next step, and that's what's going to inspire them into action. So, yeah, this is this is a hard one for a lot of us. You. If you're listening to this and you work in a very complex environment and you're the expert in your field, got to remember that you're you're talking to people that are months or years behind you. And remember what it was like when you were first learning your craft. You didn't run at 100 miles an hour on day one. You needed the first step. So this is what you're trying to do. You're trying to give people solutions on how to get unstuck from where they are today, to get into movement, get into action, get build some inertia. How does that sit with you, Antoinette?

Antoinette Roze: 15:35

You said something, Mick, that was just so spot on, and that is, when you're the leader, you there's just this fine space for you to be, and this is how, this is exactly how you remember where you once were. This is the this is the formula right here. So number one, you should not be the overlord. Obviously, nobody really respects that, and you should not be the buddy. You definitely don't want to be the buddy. You have no clout at that point, but you should always be the partner. So when someone comes to you with a question, instead of just rattling off the answer, help partner with them. Help them come up with the solution, give them a little a little guidance, but have the solution come to them. Then they're invested. Number one, but when you figure something out on your own, it really sticks. When somebody tells you information versus you figure it out, that's the beginning of an emerging leader. What you want? You want leaders, not sheep, right? In your organization, troubleshooters, solution finders. So that's my answer to that.

Mick Spiers: 16:51

Yeah, I really like this, and what I'm hearing here is something that would build agency, would build empowerment, and would build ownership. So now, what we're pivoting from, not, and this is at the heart of leadership, by the way. In your presentation, you're not trying to tell people what to do. You're trying to spark something in them, trying to spark an element of curiosity that gets them to ask themselves the right question, so that they find their own answer, and when they find their own answer, they take that ownership that I'm talking about. Because now, not oh, Antoinette told me what to do, and I'm following step three of her 36-step process. I feel like, oh, this is me. This is my journey. Now, how does that is that what I'm hearing?

Antoinette Roze: 17:43

It is, and as you're watching this unfold, you're remembering it. Just it also shows you their thought process and where you were at one point, maybe many years ago. So you're connecting, not being a buddy, not being an overlord, but being somebody who links arms with their teams.

Mick Spiers: 18:05

All right, let's build this into something practical. I want to, I want to do two here. I want to go internal and I want to go external. Let's go internal first. So if someone's listening to this, Antoinette, and they are an expert, right? So they're they're an expert in the company. They're expert in topic X, and they have been called upon to do an internal presentation. It might be at the next town hall meeting or a functional team meeting or whatever, and they've been called on, and they have been working on something for months, and now they've been tapped on the shoulder by the boss and said, "Okay, you know, you're really getting there now. It's time to communicate this to the rest of the business. How do they start to codify what might be months of work to bring it back to something that will be more impactful in the way that we're talking here?

Antoinette Roze: 19:00

Yes. So you always reverse engineer, right? You've got this this big project or this big thing that needs to be done. You reverse engineer to the smallest common denominator, and once you figure out what that next thing that has to be done within the organization or that position that that person holds, you go all in on that next part, so you and you let them know. You help them understand. Yes, the bigger picture, but you know the macro. But now you've got to get micro. So you tell them what needs to happen. What you tell them the kind of the bigger picture and what their role is in that, and then you let them know their clear objectives within that role, and then you tell them what you just told them again, and then you have them repeat it back to you. So it's kind of a four-step process because somewhere in there we all think differently. So somewhere in there they're going to catch things that you have no way of pre-judging.

Mick Spiers: 20:01

Yeah, really good. Okay, so there's a few ingredients here. So it's a mapping exercise, mapping the journey, but you're not going to present the entire journey, is what I'm hearing. So mapping the journey is where are they today? So that's a bit of a know your audience. My audience is is stuck at point A of a 26 step process, painting a vision of where we want to get to is up here, and that's got to be somewhat inspiring and relatable. That okay, this is where we want to get to, but then immediately bringing back. But the only way we're going to get there is if we take the first two or three steps, and doing it in a very much a less is more situation of only telling them the first two or three steps, even though they might be inspired by the top of the mountain. Now you're going to talk to them about base camp and how we get started. Yeah, cool.

Antoinette Roze: 20:53

Yep, that's exactly it. So let's say you want to build a grand house, and you have this vision for a grand house, but you know there are some things you need to do way right now before you can even get there. So you have the big vision. I love the way that you said that. That's exactly right. But let's not. You can get overwhelmed by what it's going to actually take to achieve that. Let's not worry about as a leader. You know, you let them know. Let's not worry about all of that. I just want you to see the bigger vision right now, all we really need to worry about is this.

Mick Spiers: 21:24

Yeah. Okay. Really good. Okay. Now let's let's go external. Now, let's say that the same expert is now getting called upon to communicate this amazing idea, this new innovation, whatever the case may be, and they're going to talk at an industry conference. Does the process change, or is it more of the same?

Antoinette Roze: 21:45

That's very much more. It's the same. So you know your audience, know your people, do your homework, and there's multiple ways that you can do that. If you can attend one of those events, if there happens to be an ability to do that, or watch a replay-that's brilliant. That's amazing. But understand who you're going to be speaking with, because you're going to speak very differently to a room full of doctors than you are to a room full of trucker leaders. So it was very, very, very different languaging. But really, all that ever changes are the stories and anecdotes that go along to help connect the dots for your people. You still never present more than three keys in any given talk, whether it's 45 minutes, 60 minutes, or a whole half day. It's just the same. It's just how deep you get to go in each one of them is what changes. But you still don't want to do, don't want to present more than three new ideas. One is, I feel even more powerful than three. But you know, based on what you've been hired to achieve, and then within that one idea, you don't want to present really more than three ways to understand that new concept or idea or idea. Again, I need to be able to get that before you move me on to the next one, or I'm still over here trying to figure out the last one, and you're going ahead of me, and you're losing my attention. So, so very much the same.

Mick Spiers: 23:26

Really good. All right. So we're aiming for one big idea, if we can, one impactful idea. I'll change the word big. Where one impactful idea is what we're aiming for. No more than three. And what I'm hearing is then. So that rule is not going to change. But what's going to change might be the way I frame the idea and the storytelling I use needs to be relatable to the people that I'm talking to. Where are they today? Okay, really good. All right, now let's transition this into the workplace in real time, and this might get a little bit more difficult here, Antoinette, in terms of doing it right there on the spot. One of the things that you and I spoke about before we hit record, and I teased it a little bit in the intro, is that the best ideas do not always win. So I'm going to put us now. I'm going to transform us away from speaking, and just into a team meeting or a brainstorming session. The best idea does not always win. The best communicated idea is the one that often wins, which can mean that in that brainstorming session, that there might be a, and call it how I see it, a gifted genius in the room, who's got an incredible idea that could transform the business, but everyone has gravitated to the one with. Sometimes it's it can be just charisma. By the way, people have gravitated to the person with charisma, but they've certainly gravitated to the idea that was communicated with more clarity. How do we do this in real time? If we are one of those gifted geniuses that's got the idea that we think is going to change the the future of the company, but we're in these brainstorming sessions with people that are communicating with more clarity than we do, what do we do?

Antoinette Roze: 25:16

Clarity is a big part of it, but actually, what comes before clarity is position. So you talked about somebody with charisma. People with charisma. This is the only thing they figured out. This is the one thing they figured out, and they do well. Making you feel like you are the only person that exists. When someone can make you feel like you are, you're special, you're heard, you're understood, then. Then you lean in. I mean, it's just a natural human response. So this is what I tell my speakers all the time: buyers don't buy talks. They don't even buy presentations. What they buy is the positioning for the solution that they're looking for? So what that means is, yes, your message needs to be clear, but more than that, why are you any different than all the other leadership, CEOs, CFOs, whatever out there? Why are you any different? What do you bring to the table? That is, what is your position, your point of view, your approach that makes me want to gravitate towards maybe hiring you or being hired by you. Why would I want to work with you over all the other people that could possibly fill your role? And that has everything to do with the way that you position the solutions that you bring, did I communicate that well? Speaking of clarity.

Mick Spiers: 26:48

Yeah, quite well. But I want to unpack something and see if I'm understanding it well. And so, positioning or the position of way that you're looking at it, and I'm and I'm not hearing position as oh, it's the CEO talking, so I have to listen. I'm hearing connection and relationships, and me feeling like "Oh, that, that Antoinette, she gets me, she understands me, she's got my back." And as soon as I feel like I know, like, and trust you, and the trust comes from this. Well, it has to have a certain credibility with it, but it's a connection that I trust you, that you've got my back, that your idea is in my interest because you care about me. So I feel like we're in Teddy Roosevelt territory here. One of his famous quotes is, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." So if you're the one that knows everything, but people don't feel like you care about them, they shut down as soon as your mouth opens. Is that where we're at?

Antoinette Roze: 27:54

Yeah, flip. I mean, flip the script. When you're in a big meeting and someone, maybe you had a casual conversation with the person who's in front of the room, and they actually requote it back to the room. You're like, "Wow, that person actually heard my idea. They actually soaked it in. I'm leaning in, and I'm going to listen to the rest of what they have to say." Versus someone who brushes you off. We've all had it happen on both sides, right? If they brush you off, you just feel like, I mean, I'll listen if I have to. I'll be here. I'm not really here. So, do you want to be the leader that each person in the room believes that you do care, that you want to understand, that you want to hear all the different aspects, elements of what it is that needs to be accomplished, or someone who's just going to get out up there, going back to you know spilling out the information. I'm king, you're not right. So there's just a very different atmosphere and very different outcomes on how you position yourself, how you communicate, how you connect. I love that word, and I'm glad you brought that in, Mick. All those links in the chinks.

Mick Spiers: 29:06

Yeah, really good. Let me play back something to you because I'll tell you what's jumping through my brain when I hear you talk about this, Antoinette. I'm immediately thinking about the art of generative listening, in the words of Otto Scharmer and his work around Theory U. And bear with me, he talks about four levels of listening, right? And level one listening is where a lot of us get stuck. And level one listening is only listening to things that confirm what we already believe. We're not actually hearing anything new. It gets even worse. I'm going to say level zero listening, which Otto doesn't talk about, but I'm going to add this one in there. They're only listening to wait for their turn to talk. That's not going to have a connection, and that's not going to have cut through. When and when I go through Otto's levels, so you know, level two listening with an open mind, level three listening with an open heart. So you're picking up the emotion that's happening in the room. Level four, listening with an open will to imagine a new reality. So what I'm hearing now is the one that's going to have the connection and the cut through, the the one that says, you know, go, oh, that Antoinette, she gets me, she understands me, she cares about me, is going to come from in that brainstorming session instead of just broadcasting your idea, you're going to build your idea on someone else's idea, which is where the generative listening comes in. And you might not have been the first one to speak at all. You might have gone, okay, Antoinette says X Y Z, and now when you present your idea, you go, Antoinette, I'm hearing X Y Z. I'm hearing it's really important to you, and and that you're you've got this challenge, that leads me to think. And now you present your idea, but now you've connected. You're not just going and going to be crass here for a second and go. The opposite of this would be okay, Antoinette. Your idea is not important, and whether you say those words out loud, the way you present yourself, the way you position, is going to send a message as to whether you care about Antoinette's idea or not. You're going to okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, or whatever. That's your idea. My idea is X. Now I don't. I'm not listening to that because you ignored my idea. Is this making sense? The generative listening.

Antoinette Roze: 31:20

It really does. It brings back a kind of an allegory that I I utilize with not really allegory, but an illustration I utilize with my speakers, and that it has everything to do with connection. So, early in your dating years, right? I know we might be thinking back in some time where you you know it feels it felt like perpetual interviews. So you're dating, dating, dating. It was I don't envy those days. You could be across the table from someone. You could even be engaged in a conversation. Yet you have this feeling that they're always looking past you, either over your head or to your side, because you're more interested in well, what else can I gain? Versus that person who's looking at you when you're speaking right into the eye, into your eye, they repeat back, like you said, some of what you said to connect their next thought on. We've been on those dates. We've also been on dates where you can talk. It doesn't matter what you say. You could say frog is purple, and they do not have. They don't hear you, right? They already have their next thought formulated in their head, so they're letting you talk just because it's you're supposed to. But they're really not hearing you, and they really just have their own agenda. As a leader, there are those kinds of leaders, and the ineffectual ones are the ones who look past their people because they've got a lot on their plate. So, what good is any one person in the bigger scheme of things? Or they honestly don't hear them; they just have an agenda, and they need to get their agenda out. And okay, if you need to talk, talk, and I'm going to get my agenda out. The real leader is the one who understands the value of each individual, no matter where they are at in that organization. There's great stories about CEOs, right, talking to the janitor and getting a revolutionary idea just from something that the janitor had seen in their perspective, you know, they're what they're seeing on the ground level that that CEO would never see because they're just far removed from that. So if you really understand the value of each person and truly listen to them, not just prepend, pretend, not just flatter, so you can repeat some of what they say to make them feel like you're listening. But honestly, listen. People will always respect that authenticity. They will be devoted to you. They will be your raving fan. And when people are your raving fans, they're going to do the best. They're going to put out their best for you and that company.

Mick Spiers: 34:02

Really good. So the two words there: are you truly listening? That's the two words I took away. Truly listening. Are you truly listening, or are you walking into meetings where you went into the meeting with your own three ideas, and you walked out of the meeting with the same three ideas? And if you're doing that, you you weren't truly listening, or if you go into this generative listening, you you'll end up in the situation where you're building on each other. You could even you know put this to Judith Glaser's work around conversational intelligence that you're moving to a yes and oh, that's interesting. And and and and now you're building on each other, and you end up with a richer idea, a co-created idea, that people are going to take coming back to our bit about ownership, a co-created idea, people are going to take ownership of, and they're going to walk away with a warm fuzzy feeling of, oh, that that Antoinette, she really listened to me, and I feel like my fingerprints are on this solution now. Like and if it goes the other way, and the boss just comes in and goes, "Yep, really good meeting team." The three things are 123, and they're the same things that they started at the start of the meeting with. And there's no buy-in. There's no buy-in to that, and people don't feel heard. They don't feel valued. They don't feel like they matter anymore because the boss just gave the answer at the end. All of that brainstorming was sorry. I'm going to call it out. Is that was BS? We did brainstorming for the sake of brainstorming, and the boss then just told everyone what to do. So, are you truly listening? Okay, really interesting. Right, another challenge for you, Antoinette. Why do brilliant expert sometimes just stay hidden, right? So they're they're sitting in that room. They've got their ideas, but they're not finding their voice at all. They they might be sitting there scribbling, and they are listening, but they're scribbling and they're not finding their voice.

Antoinette Roze: 35:59

A lot of times, brilliant people are overthinkers, and they want to get it perfect. They're also over over performers. So if they can't do those things, then they're just not going to do it at all. They're going to stay hidden till they feel like they can do it perfect, right? And be and be the one really scrappy as the new perfect in any at any level of corporate life at any level in the speaking industry. People don't want perfection; they really want authenticity, relatability, and to feel heard and understood. So I really believe that that's it. That if somebody is too brilliant, they skip over the the basics because they want to, you know, they want to get to those bigger ideas. And if they can't do it perfect, then they're just not going to do it.

Mick Spiers: 36:53

Oh, that's interesting. I've never thought of it that way. I'm going to play it back to me to you from the other scale, the other side of it. So, my personal preference here would be I'd much prefer to blurt out an imperfect idea and say, "Hey, team, help me, help me improve this idea, than to wait until I've got it perfect." So, you're saying that for some people, no, that's uncomfortable, and they they want to be, they want to have the perfect idea even before they say the first word. Interesting. So how can we encourage those people to let go a little bit and go? No, it's okay to it's okay to blurt out a half baked idea so that we can work on it.

Antoinette Roze: 37:36

Create safe spaces, and really you, you outlined that a moment ago. So, if I already know you're coming in with your three ideas, you really don't want to hear, you know, you want you don't want those ideas shooken up too much. You want to walk out with those three ideas. I'm not really going to put myself out there.

Mick Spiers: 37:54

Why would I? Yeah.

Antoinette Roze: 37:56

Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 37:57

Fair enough.

Antoinette Roze: 37:59

And be shot down. Give me a safe space, and actually, even if it seems pretty far removed from our usual mo, our usual method of operation, let's play around with it a little bit because that can that can become another idea, become another idea. That's a safe space, and I will loosen up, and I'll say the things that are not perfect, because we're going to play around with it, right?

Mick Spiers: 38:29

Yeah, really good. Okay, all right, excellent. I want to throw another one that's at the expert level here as well, and I'm going to call this the the curse of expertise. And we covered this a little bit when we were talking about the expert that's got 36 things to share because they've been working on this for months, but it's the same thing in a meeting situation. If you've got the curse of expertise, sorry, that sounds awful, but if you know every single nook and cranny of the topic that everyone's talking about, and you're in a room with people that are not at the same level as you, you might get frustrated, either in two ways, where you go, "Well, wow, this conversation is so basic, and why am I in this room?" Through to you're trying to articulate yourself, but your level of knowledge on this topic is way beyond other people's current comprehension because they haven't been on the same journey as you. When you've got that deep, deep, deep, deep, deep knowledge, much more than anyone in the room, how do you act?

Antoinette Roze: 39:34

Okay, so the remedy for that is just really simple. Think like a kid, right? Think about an experience. Make it an experience. Make it interactive. Make it a little bit playful, because in there you get to drop your bigger ideas, your bigger areas of understanding, amidst some really interactive, either role playing or. Other exercises that the room is doing together. Number one, when you get a little bit playful, you your guards come down. You're you're more open to receiving, and it's probably known that your knowledge base is far above where they are at right then. So if you're just going to try to convey to them what they're supposed to understand when they know that there's that huge gap between where they're at and where you are, it's going to be a hard bridge to bring them over. But once you start playing, once it becomes an experience and an interactive back and forth, that bridge closes really quickly. I will share a quick story. I took my son to Israel for seven weeks when he was four, four or five. He turned five when we were there, and he we were staying in this old neat place where the kids in that little complex did not speak English, and my son did not speak their language. But when they started playing soccer, they were best of friends. When they were trying to convey ideas through words, there was it was awkward, and there there was really nothing was happening. But once they really started interacting, then that language barrier did not exist. So same thing when you have your languaging is up here, and you're trying to speak to a room that their languages isn't in a very different place. Play.

Mick Spiers: 41:33

Yeah, cool. So I'm hearing two things there, common ground, finding some common ground, and then be a bit playful with it, and that can be fun. Yeah, really good. Okay, all right. I've got a couple more things to test with you. I like to do this when we have experts like yourself. I get the opportunity to ask curious things. The next one I want to talk to you about is humility. That I'm going to say it's ingrained in us from such a young age that we need to be humble, putting ourselves up on the stage and projecting an image of who we are, and all of this kind of stuff, it can kind of counter be counterintuitive to that humility. That you know, if we want to have a visible profile, that we want to be a keynote speaker and all this kind of stuff doesn't always come across so humble. So where's the connection between visibility and humility?

Antoinette Roze: 42:30

This is a great question, Mick. So humility is a very misunderstood word, very much like pride. So you can have confidence, you can have knowing, but it doesn't mean that you can't have confidence and be humble. And you can't have knowing without being prideful. You can, you can have knowing, and you can. Okay, so here's an example: when you are, let's say, learning from one of your somebody you just really, really admire, maybe it's a politician or maybe it's a Olympian. You know, they've just accomplished far above what most of us are probably going to accomplish. The ones who are not making that so obvious, making that gap so obvious, are the ones that actually command even more respect. So the further removed you are, the harder you need to work at creating a bridge between you and the people that you're speaking with. You know that interactive sort of experiential tip that I just gave, playing that's one, but also sharing some of the things that happened along the way where you flat out failed. You actually did just like them. You just you understand where you know where they are because you were there once. So really, sharing your stories that aren't so prettyed up, that aren't so polished, so that they understand. Really, you know, we all use a bathroom. We all brush our teeth in the morning. We all have to wash our dogs. Hopefully, you know, I don't know. Some people take them to the groomer, but what fun is that? We're all human. I have accomplished these maybe what seem to be bigger things, but at the end of the day, I love my children. I enjoy my community. I'm just a person, and you need to be able to communicate those kinds of things. Where you need to be careful is that it's not about levels. I think that in leadership we think in terms of levels. I need to come down to their level, or they need to rise to my level. That's horrible. That I don't love that at all.

Mick Spiers: 44:57

Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah.

Antoinette Roze: 44:59

It's not about levels it's about position. I'm going back to positioning. So I'm not going to become your buddy because I am your boss, or I'm not going to become your buddy because you have hired me to convey a solution, and I'm going. I'm going to take that seriously. However, I'm going to connect and bridge with you. There, it's a nuance, but it's a very, very important one.

Mick Spiers: 45:24

Yeah. Okay. What I'm picking up as the common thread is, is this. So, so my takeaway from what you just said was completely okay to be proud and confident in how far you've come and what you've achieved, but the way to connect to people is show you human like they are. That we're all put our pants on one leg at a time, and guess what? This journey that everyone else sees, where I've achieved this thing that I'm here to share with you. Guess what? That journey wasn't linear, and I made a 27 mistakes along the way, or probably even more. And that shows you're human, and that you've got human emotions and human needs, and now you're relatable to me. Like if if you just pretend, and it would be a pretend, by the way, because there's no such thing as you know linear success. If you pretend that yeah, this is easy, or so it's obvious, it's easier. You're not going to come across as relatable. Okay, interesting. Okay, I've got one more to test with you, and that's where identity comes in. There's going to be people listening to this, Antoinette, that maybe they would like to do public speaking one day. Although for many people, there's a lot of fear with that, but that's not what we're talking about today. The identity of people that say things like "Ah, just not good at public speaking, or I'm not a public speaker, or I'm not good at standing up in front of people." How do we reframe when we get stuck like that?

Antoinette Roze: 46:52

I love working with people who are not good public speakers, and I'll tell you why. Because then it becomes formulaic, formulaic, and rote, and to me, who I love working with, is someone who's passionate about helping the people in front of them, and that's really all you need to be as a speaker. When was the last time you got nervous or self-conscious when you were helping someone with a real problem see a solution and a new path that they can try out that could actually completely transform or revolutionize where they were headed. So when you think of, let's say you are going to be in in front of a room of 500 people, 5000 people doesn't the the number doesn't matter. The one remedy to you being too self focused is think of one person that you have truly helped, and see their face in that crowd, and stop thinking about you. They're not there because your hair is perfect. They're there because they need a solution, otherwise they wouldn't be there, giving them the solution. And if you're an expert at a solution, I love to, I love working with experts at solutions, especially when they aren't common. They're coming from a different angle, a different point of view, because that's the perfect speaker.

Mick Spiers: 48:22

Yeah, really good. Okay, all right. You've given us a lot to think about today, Antoinette. If I could play back some of it, so a lot of this is about positioning. It's a, It's really about the the positioning was something that really cut through with me today Antoinette, and understanding our audience and not try to bombard them with so much information, but to position it in a way where you show that you understand them, that you get them. That you've got their interest at heart, and then to communicate our idea in a way that might give them the the big vision of where what's achievable and what could be done. But empowers them into sparking curiosity, and with them that that allows them to take the first one, two, or three steps, nothing more. And that's when you're going to get to some cut through. And it applies to public speaking all the way through to in that team meeting to show other people that you care about them. The The Teddy Roosevelt one, I think, is good. You know, people don't care how much you know until you know how much you care. So make sure that you're truly listening, that you're truly understanding who you're talking to, so that you can then articulate your idea, or can even be posed as a question to then have them have some kind of generative experience from this, where they go, "Oh, okay, this Antoinette, she really gets me, and she's helping me. She's helping me here, and we're helping each other." And, and you end up with with being able to have much more clarity in your communication when you when you get that positioning right. Thank you so much. I'm going to take us now to our rapid round. These are the same four questions we ask all of, I guess. So, what's the one thing that you know now, Antoinette Roze, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Antoinette Roze: 50:14

So, I'm all usually my career obviously is all about the words we speak, and really the thing that I wish I would have known in my 20s was how powerful the words that I speak just to myself are. I'm not good enough. I'm just not going to get this right. Those kinds of things that you, you tell yourself in those early years, your body believes you. Whatever you tell it, it's going to protect you with your belief, and a lot of times that holds you back and makes the journey a little bit longer. You got to circle that mountain a few more times. So if I really understood when I faced a challenge, instead of said, "I don't think I'm good, I don't, I don't think I can do this. If I would have said to myself something along the lines of, you know, this might be challenging, but I'm, I'm all for it. I've got what it takes. If I would have understood the power of the spoken words, even if they're they're thought inwardly as much as I understood it from the get go, how powerful words are outwardly, I think that my my road. I mean, I don't begrudge any part of my road. It's been an amazing journey, but I think I would have had to, you know, stub my toe on fewer rocks and circle that mountain a few less times.

Mick Spiers: 51:36

Very good. That's very powerful, and you know, we all have an inner voice. We all have an inner monolog, and we get to choose what kind of language we use with ourselves. And I got to say, for for many of us, the inner critic talk we talk to ourselves in that inner monolog in a way we'd never talk to another human being. Sometimes it's crazy. Yeah. Okay. What's your favorite book?

Antoinette Roze: 51:59

Oh, "Hands Down" Seth Godin's Purple Cow book. I don't know the whole title, but I've read it backwards and forwards digitally a million times, and it all has to do with positioning. Going back to positioning in a sea of white cows, how can you be easily identifiable as the solution to that problem? So, Seth Godin's Purple Cow book.

Mick Spiers: 52:24

Very good. What's your favorite quote?

Antoinette Roze: 52:27

That comes from okay. Gosh, I've got several. I'm gonna I'm gonna use Seth Godin's again. There's actually one from Steve Jobs that I like. Can I share two or just one?

Mick Spiers: 52:40

Ah, go. Go to, go for it.

Antoinette Roze: 52:43

Okay, so for Seth Godin, it's "There's no shortage of remarkable ideas. What's missing is the will to executes between a leader and a follower." So innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower, and of course that's Steve Jobs. Again, it's all about action. So "Are we going to innovate and actually follow through with that? That's a leader, right? That's a leader who has the courage to come up with an idea and act on it, versus following someone else's ideas all the time."

Mick Spiers: 53:18

Yeah, good. There's a connection between the two as well, which is nice as well. Okay, very good. And finally, Antoinette, there's going to be people listening to this, and I'm going to say in different ways. There's going to be some that are struggling. They're the expert in their field, and they're struggling to cut through with messaging. They don't feel understood. All of these things through to there's going to be a subset of our audience, that go yeah, I've always wanted to be a public speaker, but I don't know how to get booked on gigs and how to get seen and you know known for for my expertise. How do people find you if they'd like to know more about your work?

Antoinette Roze: 53:54

Thank you for that, Mick. And for both of those subsets, I've got two resources for them. For the first subset, it's my podcast. So, if you're a leader wanting to communicate better with your people, then speak packed, packed to make the greatest impact with the power of your voice as possible. So, speakpact.com. I have a top podcast which I'm very proud of. But what's neat about the podcast is I bring in other leaders from all different kinds of industries who talk about connection, communication, and yes, presenting because you're presenting whether it's in front of a boardroom or whether it's in front of a an audience, it's all presenting and positioning those ideas. So speakpact.com, and then if you are wanting to explore, where do you begin? Like how do you how do you get your position? How do you get your message? How would you even charge? All of those kinds of things. I host a three day revenue lab. It's speakerrevenuelab.com. Speakerewab.com very very inexpensively under $100. I'm not selling on this show, but it just shows you three days with me, you will get all of that, and then you can really determine at that point whether or not you want to go, you know, dive into speaking, or let's say you're already speaking, you really want to take it to the next level. I have very advanced speakers and just emerging speakers, all in the same room. It's just a neat experience. I do it three or four times a year, and it's just a very rich, amazing experience. So that would be a really great place to start.

Mick Spiers: 55:32

All right, wonderful. And we'll put the links in the in the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, Antoinette. I really appreciate your time today for the The gift of your time, your wisdom, and your experience-you've given us a lot to think about, but also things that we can action. We can take the first steps of improving the way that we position and the way that we cut through with that with our messaging. Thank you so much.

Antoinette Roze: 55:56

Thank you for having me, Mick. Keep doing this important work.

Mick Spiers: 56:01

What a practical and thought-provoking conversation within Antoinette Roze. The idea that really stayed with me is this, leadership communication is not about giving people more information; it's about creating understanding, and that distinction matters because many leaders, especially deep experts fall into the trap of trying to communicate every single thing that they know. They've been working on an idea for months. They can see the full complexity. They can see all 36 steps. They can see the risks, the trade-offs, the dependencies, and the destination. But the audience is often hearing it for the first time, and if we start at step 36, we lose them before they have even begun. Antoinette gave us a powerful reminder that people do not need the whole mountain on day one, they need to see the mountain, yes, they need to understand why it matters, but then they need to know where base camp is. They need the next link in the chain. They need the one insight, the one micro transformation, the one practical step that helps them move from confusion into movement, and that is such a powerful lesson for leadership, because a confused mind does not retain, a confused mind does not engage, a confused mind does not act, and that does not mean we dumb things down because people are not intelligent. That's not it at all. It means we care enough to make the message accessible. That was one of the strongest threads in this conversation with me. Clarity is an act of service. When we communicate with clarity, we are not showing off how much we know. We're helping others understand what they need to know next. So here is my invitation to you. Before your next presentation, meeting, or important conversation, pause and ask yourself five questions: Who am I speaking to? Where are they right now? What problem are they trying to solve? What is the one idea they most need to understand? And what is the next step that will help them move forward? If you can answer those questions clearly, your communication will become more useful, more human, and more impactful. Because leadership is not about proving how much we know, it is about helping people understand what matters, why it matters, and what they can do next. Thank you for joining me on this episode of The Leadership Project. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who has great ideas, but may need help turning those ideas into clarity, connection, and action. And join us next week when I speak with Dr. Ron Friedman, award-winning psychologist and best-selling author of "The Best Place to Work, Decoding Greatness, and Super Teams. You've been listening to The Leadership Project. If today sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work editing every episode, and to my amazing wife Sei who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible. None of this happens without them. Around here, we believe leadership is a practice, not a position that people should feel seen, heard, valued, and that they matter. That the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity, and control for trust. If that resonates with you, please subscribe on YouTube and on your favorite podcast app. And if you want more. Follow me on LinkedIn and explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing. Until next time, lead with curiosity, courage, and care.