First-Century Youth Ministry
This podcast was created to help youth ministry leaders become better disciple-makers in the 21st century by educating them on the first-century context, culture and way of life of Jesus and the Jewish people. You'll hear great conversations from scholars in first-century judaism as well as seasoned youth ministry giants to help you bridge the gap between the world of the first century and your world in youth ministry today.
Hosted by Heather Quiroz, author and founder of First-Century Youth Ministry and Jonathan Brown, Messianic writer and teacher with Kehillat Yeshua Ministries, and Torah Apologetics. Heather and Jonathan are passionate about helping others understand Jesus from within His Jewish context.
Find us on social media on Facebook or Twitter or join us www.firstcenturyyouthministry.com Our podcast is part of the Youth Cartel podcast network- https://theyouthcartel.com/podcast-network/
First-Century Youth Ministry
144 1 TIMOTHY 3 IN CONTEXT WITH TYLER DAWN ROSENQUIST
What are the true qualifications for church leadership, and how can we interpret biblical texts to support women's roles within the church? Join us on this episode of the First Century Youth Ministry Podcast, where we sit down with the insightful Tyler Don Rosenquist. Tyler kicks things off by sharing her passion for Bavarian cream donuts, leading into a deeper discussion about 1 Timothy, Chapter 3. We reveal how the original Greek text employs gender-neutral language and explore the broader cultural and linguistic contexts that can bolster arguments for women in leadership roles.
Our conversation journeys through the ancient concepts of Episcopos and Diakonos, uncovering how elders in early communities were valued for their wisdom and experience rather than formal titles. Drawing from the expertise of Dr. Dwight Pryor, we compare these historical roles with modern church functions, emphasizing that true leadership is rooted in lived experience and the ability to guide others. . And, of course, we couldn't resist one last shout-out to the delicious Bavarian cream donuts that started our episode on such a sweet note.
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Welcome to the First Century Youth Ministry Podcast.
Speaker 2:A podcast looking back into the Jewish roots of our faith.
Speaker 1:For the way forward in youth ministry discipleship. I'm Heather. And I'm Jonathan, and we are your co-hosts.
Speaker 2:This podcast is part of the Youth Cartel Podcast Network.
Speaker 1:Hey friends, welcome back to the show. It's Heather here with Jonathan and our special guest, tyler Don Rosenquist. If you missed last week's episode, I'd encourage you to go check that out, as we dissected First Timothy, chapter two, and this week we're going to be looking at First Timothy, chapter three. And but before we hop into that, I was curious to know Tyler, jonathan and I, a few episodes ago, talked about what we would like to eat at the marriage supper of the lamb. My choice was Indian food and Jonathan wanted some tacos, like real Mexican street tacos. And then his daughter magically showed up and gave him a hug and I thought she came only because she heard the word tacos and so but maybe she loves her dad. I don't know.
Speaker 3:It could be that too, but I'm just curious to know what would you like to eat at the marriage supper of the lamb Donuts? Donuts, I stay away from sugar. I love, oh gosh, I love donuts.
Speaker 1:Yes, what kind of donuts? Cake donuts, yeast donuts?
Speaker 3:I'm sorry are there kinds Just donuts?
Speaker 1:Any donuts?
Speaker 3:Okay, I don't like the maple glaze. That's disgusting.
Speaker 1:No see when.
Speaker 3:I eat donuts, but I like Bismarck's.
Speaker 1:Oh, do you Like with the jelly filling in the middle? No, no with the Bavarian cream oh yeah. Yeah, so would your life like be complete if you could sit down and have a Bavarian cream donut with Han Solo. Would that like make your life complete?
Speaker 3:Wait, is this Han Solo or is this Harrison Ford talking about politics? Because they're not the same. And is this young Han Solo or is this? Well, no, it's just kidding yeah, I mean well, I mean it's like I mean, it's like Empire Han Solo.
Speaker 2:How about Empire Han?
Speaker 3:Solo yeah, there we go okay, oh yeah okay yeah, scruffy looking nerf herder looks good to me yeah there you go, he was, he was my total heartthrob when I was like Luke Skywalker. What, what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, forget that noise. Okay, so great, so, hey, so Bavarian cream donuts at the marriage supper of the Lamb, thank you, jesus. Well, so today we're talking about First Timothy three, and that's another passage that kind of trips up people when it comes to women and serving in the church and a ceiling that is created for many women when they start to serve and start to show themselves to be a person of wisdom and a leader, etc. They tend to hit a ceiling in many churches and so, with that being said, you know how do we understand 1 Timothy, chapter 3, in light of Paul's, or Paul's words to Timothy, when it comes to leadership in the church?
Speaker 3:Okay. Well, you've got the in chapter 3, you've got the two positions. You know, jobs mentioned. You've got episkopos, which is often translated as overseer. Is that the one that's translated bishop? I think so, even though it has nothing to do with bishops today yeah yeah, uh, thank you.
Speaker 3:I knew somebody would know it and I couldn't remember. The other one is diaconos deacons, and the reason for the oh and then you've got elders, but elders is all the way off in chapter five. So I could just kind of sum this up by just looking at the one, because they mostly say the same thing. It's close enough. If anyone aspires to be an overseer, an episcopal, he desires a noble work. An overseer, therefore, must be above repro. He desires a noble work. An overseer, therefore, must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, self-controlled, sensible, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not an excessive drinker, not a bully, but gentle, not quarrelsome, but not greedy. He must manage his own household competently and have his children under his control with all dignity. If anyone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of God's church? He must not be a new convert. Boy, wouldn't that be nice if we could bar those people from teaching on YouTube?
Speaker 1:Thank you, Lord.
Speaker 3:Okay, or he might become conceited and incur the same condemnation as the devil. Furthermore, he must have a good reputation among outsiders so he does not fall into disgrace and the devil's trap one. We've got hate, but you know, every culture does that. Where you've got gender neutral language under the auspices of he, it's like what's a fireman? Is a fireman always a man? No, my mother was a fireman. She hated the phrase fire purse or firefighters. Okay, but you know, back in the 90s, when people were like playing with the terminology, it's like fire purse and it's like, well, what the heck is that?
Speaker 1:Right sure.
Speaker 3:Sounds like something in a horror movie, right, and there are Greek terms that are exclusively male, and then there's this one that is not exclusively male.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you mean the as it starts out, if, if any man is the one you're talking about yeah, some of them do, man uh.
Speaker 3:Mine christian standard bible says if anyone, yeah, yeah, because it's not so.
Speaker 2:Normally you'd have um, uh, anthropos, right, like anthropomorphic is, you know, human-like, and generally that'd be translated as man or a could be man or husband, um, but yeah, in this case you actually have the um. The word that you use is tis, which is an indefinite pronoun, and that's why it is technically it is uh, one. You could say if any one or if any person. So in any, any of these cases throughout here you say you know, if any one aspires, then you know one desires a fine work, right, and then instead of he, it's the one who does this with one's own household. It gets weird to read in english because we we read better to make things kind of binary, but you really have to have to strip that out of the, the greek, to really understand that he's not specifically saying male exclusive. In fact, the way it's written you could even say even if this did say man and male, you could say well, but in biblical languages, generally speaking, as far as I know, just about any language the general case is always masculine, like bene?
Speaker 2:Israel is the sons of israel, literally the sons of israel. We translate as children, because we know it includes women too. It's like speak to the sons of israel and tell them when you give birth Well, obviously that only applies to women, because men don't give birth, right. Yeah, so, so it's inclusive of both. We understand that, like no real linguist or biblical scholars going to argue against that. So you could even make the point of if he said, you know, if you know a man does this and he does that, and you can say, well, that could be general too. Just like the Psalms say blessed is the man. Well, that doesn't mean women can't be blessed, right, but it actually goes beyond that. This isn't even just a general case that would use kind of the preferred general masculine term. This is specifically intentionally not using those terms. It's like it's intentionally ambiguous.
Speaker 1:Ooh, I like that, so that we're not saying okay maybe we're looking at it from the wrong way of saying it's actually not using those terms on purpose to include women or to not exclude women. Maybe I should say I like that yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, the beef people usually have with this is the husband of one wife.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:That's the one where people but people don't understand that. That was idiomatic and there's also a female version of that is the wife of one husband, but it's an idiom that refers to someone who has only been married to one person. So a widow who is a univara, she didn't remarry, and you'll find this on tombstones. And so a man would also. If he was a widower and he did not remarry, he is the husband of one wife widower and he did not remarry. He is the husband of one wife. Woman who lost her husband, who did not remarry, is the wife of one husband. It was as though it was like a virtue, it was like a devotion thing. You're not out looking for another squeeze. Okay. It also contributes to the stability of the home because you're not introducing more mothers or more fathers with. Now we've got children with that person, which doesn't really lend toward the stability of a home, because we see all the stuff that goes on with the patriarchs and David's family and everything. When you've got multiple mothers and children, you know, just a mess.
Speaker 3:That's just me saying that. And so it's a person who is driven by devotion and not lust, and their life is going to be somewhat stable. Okay, to be able to devote themselves to the church. Now, obviously, a woman with young children who doesn't have a husband, you know that might not be possible, and a man who has little children now his wife's dead might not have that option. But as far as if you're looking at church leadership early church leadership, as far as if you're looking at church leadership, early church leadership there are people who make sacrifices to take on these roles.
Speaker 3:But then it talks about how you run your household. Well, women ran households. As a matter of fact, a woman could outrank her husband if a woman's father was of a higher caste, or is it caste? I think it's caste. Okay, thank you, I always get it wrong the first time. So if a woman's husband or if a woman's father is a higher caste than her husband, she is under her father and she ranks over her husband and it can be her household because she's considered to be her father's.
Speaker 1:Was that in the Jewish world or the Greco-Roman world?
Speaker 3:Greco-Roman which would be Ephesus.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:And we wouldn't really envisage Paul needing to lecture Jews on the structure of a God-fearing congregation. Sure, they already know.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, if you notice, paul's letters are always addressing a Gentile congregation who doesn't know how to properly structure and order their worship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they don't know where their right hand from their left Right, exactly. So, yeah, a woman could be the householder. Also, if a woman's a widow, she would be running the household. She would be in charge of the slaves, male and female.
Speaker 2:You see this with lydia right sure lydia is mentioned in act 16 as the, the seller of purple right from thyatira um, and it says that you know she had listened to the things that paul was saying and that god opened her heart.
Speaker 2:And then she and her household right, there's a possessive term, her household were baptized, right, and then she invited them into her house, not, you know, her, in the household of her husband or the household of her father, um, you know she made the name for herself and there's there's also the um, the way that priscilla is typically mentioned before Aquila, which does buck convention, if you think, even like today, we would say Mr and Mrs Before we say Mrs and Mr just because of social convention, and they would do the same thing except, as you mentioned, if she were considered the prime one, right. So whether she be the more prominent teacher or, again, if she were from a higher class family and him lesser like it, it, it inherently says something about her status for her to be intentionally mentioned first when the normal convention is to mention her last, so that by itself conveys something of import.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Now we'd look at um, and it makes sense. You know that. All this is that they do use male language, because it's rare for a woman in childbearing years then or now, to be able to devote themselves full-time to ministry. I didn't start until my kids were in their early teens studying, and then I started teaching a few years later, but I just didn't have time because you're in the war zone when your kids are young.
Speaker 1:Amen, sister, amen to that.
Speaker 3:So it's not like it's going to be the rare woman who is any of these things, and so it's going to be men, but it doesn't exclude them. It just means they're probably going to be older when they do this. And if we're going to look, you know, when it talks about the diakonos, the deacons, well, that also says the husband of one wife, and who, in Romans, 16. Yes, she is the first one mentioned and she is Diakonos.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:She was the first reader and interpreter of Romans to the Romans. You know, mm-hmm, you know. So we've talked about Diakonos, deacons, overseers. There is not one named overseer in the Bible, but you were asking before about elders. And let's see, because I got what Gupta says here I have him. And so that's in 1 Timothy 5. And that's Presbyteros. And that's Presbyteros, and he says this is one of the most important categories of early Christian leadership. But we don't really know. It's not. He says it's not functionary, so it's not a job description. The way that Episcopos and Diakonos are Traditionally. He says the elders of the clan or village were the wise, older figured who shared their wisdom and took responsibility for the well-being of the community. So the basic meaning of the term is old person.
Speaker 1:This is the basic meaning of the term is old person.
Speaker 3:But elders are just people who are kind of they're a leadership collective. You know, they're the people who have the wisdom, who have the age, who have the respect. He mentions that in 4th Maccabees there's a faithful Jewish woman hailed as a soldier of God in the cause of religion, elder and woman. If we look at that, yeah, we've got a woman referred to as an elder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like what Dr Dwight Pryor says about this. Yeah, I like what Dr Dwight Pryor says about this. He says you know, we in our church world essentially make this a role where back then it was more of a function. People served a function If there was a need in the community and you had the ability and the giftings and the time for it. Whether you were male or female, you would serve that function for that purpose, for the community. And now we give people roles that last like forever in a day right and now we exclude women based upon scriptures you know, such as these I'm a teacher, I'm called to teach.
Speaker 3:I have the anointing. I remember when I couldn't teach and then the next day I could. So you know it was obviously a gift from.
Speaker 3:God. That's a job. Okay, that's a job. That's where my gifts and function, but I also function as an elder. People come to me when they have problems. People come to me when they have this or that concern. It's not anything I ever advertised or sought out, but they recognize me as an older woman in the faith and they come to me with stuff that you just can't ask about openly on Facebook because it would be very dangerous. So, yeah, I mean and in those terms I am betting everyone who's listening can think of an older woman who is an elder to them.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:Because when you put it in those kind of terms, it's like oh yeah, it's not a job, it's just this person gives good advice. Sometimes, you know, or hopefully more often than not, but know, if I have this need, yeah, that's the person I go to and that's why. And okay, elder, yeah, I get it. Yeah, elder seems more like a family role sure that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I like that, yeah, and elder itself goes back to kind of tribal terms right, elders, were the elders right? I mean, you go back into, even far back into the Torah and then you continue into the prophets. You know why did Absalom sit outside the city gate? To intercept people on their way to David? Because that's where the elders sat. And why would you go see the elders? Because they were the mediators, because they've already lived through life.
Speaker 2:And you say, hey, I've got this situation going on and me and Bob over here we disagree. Would you judge our case and tell us which one of us is in the right here and which one of us is wrong? That's what judges were. They were the elders. That's why Boaz right, why did he go outside of the gate? Same thing, right. And you couldn't be, you know, 14 years old and go sit outside the gate and be like, okay, everybody's gonna ask me for advice now because you haven't earned the right to give advice, because you haven't done it yet. You haven't, you don't have the lived experience yet right.
Speaker 3:yeah, you don't know what happened 20 years ago the last time we didn't get good rains, and what are we supposed to do and how should we handle this. But the guy who's 60 was 40 when it happened, he wasn't you know, he wasn't even 10, you know? Yeah, it's important. You need those people who have been there and seen it and done it and survived it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, that's good. Well, this has been another fun conversation and, friends, if you want to keep the conversation going, definitely ask some questions on our Facebook page. We'd love to dialogue with you more about this. Tyler, thanks for two really great conversations the last couple of weeks. We really appreciate you and your teaching abilities and your wisdom. So, friends, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:It's an honor. Thanks so much. Love you guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you too, and thanks for joining us for the first century youth ministry podcast. Go donuts, bavarian cream, donuts in jesus name. All right, have a great day, everybody. Bye.