In this installment of our Sub-show The Eastside Theatre Guild, we unravel the tapestry of the cult classic "Reign of Fire."
We dissect Matthew McConaughey's oft-overlooked role, peeling back layers to reveal a character as complex as the dragon-riddled world he navigates. As the dragon's fiery reign draws to a close and survivors face the daunting task of rebuilding, we ponder the legacy of their struggle. With each beat of draconian wings, we invite listeners to join us in a realm where every burst of flame illuminates the resilience of the human spirit.
In this installment of our Sub-show The Eastside Theatre Guild, we unravel the tapestry of the cult classic "Reign of Fire."
We dissect Matthew McConaughey's oft-overlooked role, peeling back layers to reveal a character as complex as the dragon-riddled world he navigates. As the dragon's fiery reign draws to a close and survivors face the daunting task of rebuilding, we ponder the legacy of their struggle. With each beat of draconian wings, we invite listeners to join us in a realm where every burst of flame illuminates the resilience of the human spirit.
BBC 4 or.
Speaker 2:Big Black Cock 4.
Speaker 1:It's the fourth one.
Speaker 2:In a series of 47, it's the fourth one.
Speaker 1:The Great BBC Train.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a difference. The East Side Theater Guild the flowers are still standing.
Speaker 1:All right, welcome back to Dispatch Ajax. This is Jake.
Speaker 2:I'm Skip and we're firing up all cylinders.
Speaker 1:All of the cylinders are firing. But before we get into today's topic, we have a special announcement from our latest advertiser oh, we got another sponsor.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:We have another sponsor. Finally, this episode is presented by our new favorite partners at Mine and Yours. Oh, the cold pit of space can be a pretty lonely place. Sometimes. Clones get tiresome and those synthetic people are likely to kill you in milk-blood-covered corporate craze, as they are to maintain full functionality as standard pleasure models. No, what you need is someone to love, settle down with and start a family. Well, don't you worry, because there is someone who wants the same thing as you and they're just waiting to hear from you. Don't wait until the core miner on the other pad beats you to it.
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Speaker 2:So was it Blade Runner, alien or enemy mind that we're doing here? Yes, okay good, and I do appreciate your Shatner esque delivery as well. I think that'll that'll play well and tonight on rescue 9-1-1. There's some drac on the wing a man falls, stunned by a monster is the commercial now?
Speaker 1:well, is it now. When will it be?
Speaker 2:I don't know why no one has ever brought this up, but I find it ironic that he hosted Rescue 911 when he delayed calling 911 when his wife was drowning in their pool and she died.
Speaker 1:Oh, shit, alright, skip. So today we're gonna have a dragon-rific pod, as we will be talking about drag queens. Drag queens. Where are they? How do you find them?
Speaker 2:There are single ones in your area.
Speaker 1:Are they indeed magic?
Speaker 2:Will you be enchanted and turned to their lifestyle by gazing upon them?
Speaker 1:Is it true they have access to alien technology?
Speaker 2:Were they the second shooter of the Grassy Gnall Collectively?
Speaker 1:That case and many others tonight on Unsolved Mysteries.
Speaker 2:Was the Loch Ness Monster, jack the Ripper.
Speaker 1:Can dragon queens fly?
Speaker 2:Bobby, we're not going to be talking about clunge today today we're talking about dragons, yes, dragons, dragon clunge have to be a certified union plumber to be able to deal with dragon clunge.
Speaker 1:There's lots of wide openings, lots of berths and tunnels to be filled.
Speaker 2:Bends Lots of drilling. Well, there is actually a lot of mining.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah. So today we're going to talk about something that was almost the Hollywood dream come true. Two writers from Wisconsin dream up an idea of a big blockbuster film almost so crazy it couldn't even happen. They write it on spec and it gets picked up, developed by an industry mogul, gets a fledgling director on the cusp of doing something more, attaches some of up and coming stars which wouldn't be able to be attached to it, you know, 10, 20 years later. And then it gets made, but to a lukewarm reception. It does get a second life as a cult flick, but it is a story of what could have been, or almost was, because it's a fine line between a reign with dragons and gaming the thrones with them. Today we're talking about Reign of Fire. Yes, fire, this was a movie, so you?
Speaker 1:say so some have said, so say we all. So you say so. Some have said, so say we all. So says Admiral Adama.
Speaker 2:What do you hear?
Speaker 1:Starbot, this dragon's calling the ball. So, kobe, this is a 2002 film about dragons being found in quote modern times, and then we get a post-apocalyptic, dragon-filled world where humans are trying to survive. Yeah, so how about we go into the film a little bit?
Speaker 2:Okay, I'd like to say off the bat that it is oddly structured for this kind of film, narrative-wise. Oddly structured for this kind of film, narrative wise. But having re-watched it last night it made more sense than I remembered it making, but it still got some weird, quirky, odd narrative things going on that don't normally happen in these guys please point them out when we get to them oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah let's run down the film a little bit so it opens. It sure does.
Speaker 1:Yep, and then it ends.
Speaker 2:And that's it. You saw the whole thing. We forgot to tell you more.
Speaker 1:The rising action. So there is an excavation happening the dock lands in London. A little boy is walking to see his mom who works on the excavation happening the dock lands in london. A little boy is walking to see his mom who works on the excavation crew. I'm assuming they're building some subway tunnels or maybe gutting underneath to build stuff for a new building.
Speaker 2:They don't really get into that a tunnel of some sort, yeah well, I've been in the channel when, when we were kids, it didn't exist.
Speaker 1:All we had was the Berlin Wall, huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was really hard to get through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, corby, pull down this wall.
Speaker 2:Mommy, where am I? It's time to change me Was Nancy the. It was Nancy, yes.
Speaker 1:Nancy. Nancy Reagan had the fillet shoe skills. I thought it was Barbara Bush.
Speaker 2:No God, no, no one would touch her with a 10-inch pole.
Speaker 1:Anyway, this is about dragons.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:All right, the kid comes to meet the mom and they're having a bit of dialogue, blah, blah, blah. Just a little exposition about those characters and the relationship. But then another guy comes in. He's on the work team. They've hit this cavernous void, Little banter between the child and the worker and he sends the child in to go explore.
Speaker 2:Always smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good call.
Speaker 2:They stopped using canaries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, osha approved child labor. They don't have that in england, so the little boy goes in. He's seeing some, some weird stuff in this cavern some scaly walls turns out it's jimmy savile no run it's okay, everyone's gonna turn their head for another 20 years at least.
Speaker 1:But no, what? It's? A dragon has been roused. There's a dragon that's been roused. There's a dragon underground. It spits some type of gasoline-esque mixture into his face and he runs out. He gets to his mom. He's like Mom, I saw something. The other workers hear some rumbling. They go to check it out and then fireball explodes from that cavern where they were. The mom takes the boy we got to get the F out of here. They get in the elevator thing to lead them up the lift. Well, it's Britain, I know yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, honestly, this is one of the coolest parts of the movie for me watching it. It's odd that she immediately is like, oh shit, it's a dragon, let's go, Instead of being like what the fuck is happening.
Speaker 1:Well no, she just sees the fire. She doesn't know what it is. She's like. I have to get him to safety, no matter what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's probably true.
Speaker 1:We gotta get him up. What I liked about that scene is when they're in the elevator lift and he looks down and sees the dragon's face for the first time, right as it's crawling up, because as they're going up, the dragon makes its way out of its hole that it was in and then starts climbing up the same shaft that they are traveling up.
Speaker 2:Well, it was like one shot, but I really enjoyed it. You saw the fire. So he's looking down at the bottom of the shaft and the other miners with an E are running out of the, because you know the other excavators. We're talking about a child. This is a distinction that needs to be made. And then they're running out and then they run into the wall on the other side of the shaft and they have nowhere to go and they look back and then fire just shoots out of the tunnel and he's looking down watching all these people get fried. And then you see, for a very brief moment, the dragon's head come out and the child is the only one that sees it and it's this surreal. This is already a horribly tragic, traumatic event. And then it's a fucking dragon split second and you're like holy fuck, you know that moment frozen, he will never forget it. And the rest is probably just like adrenaline fueled, like he barely remembers it.
Speaker 1:Well, and then, as it's coming up, it almost stops to make eye contact with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a little too feet from him. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fine yeah.
Speaker 1:But in the process his Borg mother is killed.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm glad you brought up Alice Creek. Yes, yeah. The Borg Queen also in Chariots of Fire and the Silent Hill movie, I believe is the villain in that Famous Borg Queen.
Speaker 1:Famous Borg Queen.
Speaker 2:As opposed to those ones we don't talk about.
Speaker 1:The less well-known Borg Queens.
Speaker 2:Well, actually there are two other actresses that have played. I don't give a shit about it.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying. So the dragon climbs up as he's stuck in the lift, as it gets crushed. His mother is crushed as the dragon pushes through, and then the dragon's out and you see him, see his dead mother, and then it fades. Then the movie fades into a Mad Max exposition, straight from Road Warrior, where he's talking about essentially the end of humanity he talks about in 2008,. The dragons are released. No one knows exactly where they came from or what's going on with them. They spread like locusts.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest problem with this whole sequence is that not only do you do a hack thing like a montage to explain it, but you do it then on top of that with a voiceover.
Speaker 1:What did? All right, here's a question what would you want to happen?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I feel like, honestly, if you're going to make a really serious movie like this because they're trying to be serious, they really are, yeah, they really seem to try to take this really seriously I feel like you should just jump ahead and then, through action and dialogue, let these things come out naturally, instead of sort of like talking down to your audience in that respect.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean I think I'm going to push back on this one, okay. I think it helps to know what the fuck happened in these 15 years, from, like when a dragon emerges, to the end of a humanity yeah, but I don't think you need to do it all at once.
Speaker 2:I think you could subtly release that in the first act without having well, they have.
Speaker 1:They have kind of two bits they have this where they talk about that they spread humanity fell, that they realized that they're the ones who killed the dinosaurs. You learn that they burn things to ash and that they apparently feed on the ash. This is, I think, some exposition.
Speaker 2:That's kind of necessary I agree, but why dump it all at once? You could have just restructured the first act to make that more organic to me, I don't know. It just seems like one of these things where they're like well, all of this happened not seen here, let's just skip ahead.
Speaker 1:One, I don't think they have the budget for that. Two to show it. Two, I think that you're already being dropped in a world where dragons are real and you need to get to this post-apocalyptic lifestyle that they're at to put all of that on hold. I think the audience needs a little guidance, know where we stand in relation to this world.
Speaker 2:Okay, I will push back on your pushback only a little, because think about A Quiet Place. They do not do that. They don't have the voiceover, they don't have the montage. You get what happened based on sparse flashbacks and newspaper clippings you see randomly around the room. They don't even highlight them, they're just around and you get the exact same type of exposition. That's what I wanted out of this movie. I know it's 1998 or whatever, but I'm just saying or whatever it was 2002.
Speaker 1:I don't think it is hampering the film. I think to let people understand the devastation that's happened. Plus, in that movie you don't even see essentially what they are for quite a while. That is true. That's a big mystery. You just know that you have to be quiet and then that mystery plays out throughout the film. This we've already seen a dragon. We know the dragon was out in London. We know that this little boy is now 25. We know that time has passed. I don't think that's a problem. Letting them know a little bit of the history of what's happened, Sure, but if you look more, like I think maybe you don't necessarily need to do it twice, because they do do it twice, they do.
Speaker 1:But I also think the second time they have a little exposition when he's kind of reminiscing, which we can get to later, but it's flashbacks of like old magazine features, of like mocked up disasters. We see pictures of dragons burning paris yep, you know bigger ones yeah you know stuff like that. I personally liked that. Um, I thought that was fun to see that part was cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's still air of mystery to it when you set up the first scene, uh, and he barely sees the dragon discovering a dragon.
Speaker 1:You think it's a dragon because you see its face, and then you see it like kind of crawl up and fly away.
Speaker 2:You don't really see much else I don't think you even need that. I think it would be cooler. Like you see the dragon spewing fire at the bottom of the pit, don't see it again. It's like this haze of action and horror and then you skip ahead and then you don't see the dragon again until some point in the first act.
Speaker 1:I think it's scarier because it's more of like this overwhelming force that was like took everybody by surprise instead of going hey, now there are dragons but this is a movie when you know it's on the poster, it's on the trailers, you, you know there are dragons, so to is a movie where you know it's on the poster, it's on the trailers, you know there are dragons, so to, like hide a dragon. What is the point?
Speaker 2:If this movie were made today, it wouldn't be like that.
Speaker 1:The dragons are the selling point of the film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:As opposed to the Quiet Place, where it's not the creatures, it's being quiet and being silent. That's the selling point of the film.
Speaker 2:I just feel like this movie had more potential to be a scarier, more serious movie than it is.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, we're still in the first scene, so let's just keep going. Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:So there is the Mad Mac exposition. We see that this is something that scientists have theorized that they've done. They killed the dinosaurs, leading to ash in the atmosphere, a big freeze. They hibernate. They come back out, eat and burn everything, rinse, repeat. That's what we're setting up as what is currently happening in modern day. Yeah, I'd like to push back on the science, but that's what I'm saying Again, later on I'll talk about the making of this. The director essentially says I want to make this serious, gritty film. You have to take this one big dose of crazy where it's like dragons are real and they exist and they're not dinosaurs.
Speaker 1:That's the thing yeah, I mean, I don't really understand how that works. I don't understand eating ash. None of that makes sense to me I don't.
Speaker 2:Well, you understand eating ass, but I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't get the whole fossil record I understand eating ash from pokemon I do get that I just don't understand the whole fossil record.
Speaker 2:I understand eating ass from Pokemon. I do get that. I just don't understand how this is justified in the fossil record. Yes, it is a giant leap in logic.
Speaker 1:Okay, the leap in logic to say that dinosaurs are real. So I'm not opposed to say oh, science got that wrong. It wasn't this asteroid, it was dinosaurs and we just never knew about it. Here's an explanation.
Speaker 2:Well, you keep saying dinosaurs instead of dragons, so you're leading me to believe. You do not believe dinosaurs are real.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying do your research.
Speaker 2:I'm just asking questions Just asking questions.
Speaker 1:No, that dragon is real. It kind of sets up. It also sets up like the devastation that we can expect. We see that dragons have wiped out an entire planet before.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah.
Speaker 1:Survived and are coming back.
Speaker 2:One of the more interesting debates of was that is it fantasy or is it science fiction?
Speaker 1:Something we will also get into. Another episode, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:Ok, because it's it's a literal child who has grown up. In this we see that society is completely broken down. They don't have movies.
Speaker 1:They don't really have books. They don't have anyone to explain any of this.
Speaker 2:But why is he explaining it?
Speaker 1:He's explained a little bit that he knows and remembers, the same way that the kid in Mad Max and the road warriors, like the great cities of pipe and steel, and then two great warrior tribes set off a blaze that engulfed them all. He doesn't understand what oil refineries, he doesn't understand politics, he doesn't understand the global conflicts, he doesn't understand what nuclear war is. He's just explaining in the way that he can, as a child who didn't really have any firsthand knowledge of this.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's Christian Bale's character at all, because he understands how tanks work and bullets and guns and no, no, what I'm saying is as what an eight-year-old.
Speaker 1:He's not going to be able to explain well, you see the fossil records, as he's like trying to survive for the next 50 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he explains the science of how the fire works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, they figure out some things as you do on the run, but you're not going to have a whole laid out history. But they have a history. You're not going to have old man scientists who knew everything.
Speaker 2:They have magazines and newspapers explaining the science of it.
Speaker 1:Magazine newspapers are like we don't really know where they came from. We think this is what happened to the dinosaurs. The article literally says like it's all full of question marks and so like we don't really know what's going on here, as society is fucking collapsing and humanity is dying off. I just think they're reaching for answers in these magazine articles of the New York Times.
Speaker 2:That would be different if it was like two generations later. But this kid grew up in modern London.
Speaker 1:He did but this is modern London After he gets out of that hole, or is it within a year? Yeah, but it's a year. The dragons have taken over everything and are destroying everything. He is on the run, yes, but he's just trying to survive during that period.
Speaker 2:It's not like a nuclear blast went off and then everything was dead, like there was but it's a nuclear blast.
Speaker 2:There was two go off trying to yeah later. But I mean, like they were. Obviously you just tune into bbc and they're trying to explain to to people why this is real and this is the history and this is what people think happened. It's not like he's. He's not the Mad Max character, because that kid grew up in a world that didn't. That has no no touch to the other past world, this one. He's actually there. He was there watching tv he was.
Speaker 1:But okay, here let's okay.
Speaker 1:I'll jump. I'll jump a little ahead so that you see them. One of the big famous moments in this film that I think has resonated past this is that now Christian Bale is the kid who's grown up castle and he's trying to put on a performance with his best friend, gerard Butler, of things he remembers Only a little bit, but he remembers as much as he can from them, one of them being a scene in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is fighting Darth Vader and finds out about his patronage. Right, you also hear them yell out the kids want more. They don't want to go to bed once the scene ends the scene that isn't word to bed once the scene ends the scene that isn't word for word, the scene that that they're doing their best, making up from what they remember a bit when they were kids.
Speaker 1:They also, like the kids, shout out for shark, which one assumes would be them doing some telling of jaws and lion king. This is just stuff that he remembered as a small kid, before society completely collapsed, and he's doing his best to make sense of these stories and pass them on, these movies that are now folk tales to be told to kids. What do you want him to have. It's like oh, here's the great big book of all the dragon stuff that we know and how it all happened, and let me pass it down he understands, literally understands, the science of how the fucking chemicals work in their mouths to create the fire.
Speaker 1:He says I think this is how it works. They say I think this is how it works. And another character and a pilot character say yeah, we have examined some after the fact and we found out this is how it works. He's like this is our working theory.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no that it's reversed to that, because the americans show up and they're like uh, what do you know about this and we know about this, and did you know that this? And he goes yes, yes, we know, we already know that the two things combine and they create the fire, but he's like really technical about it. It's the opposite. He literally is just like yes, we know, because he's really upset that they're condescending to him. And if, like, if it were a character where he didn't understand the science, and then the people who are still actively fighting, who still have connections to the past, show up and give you a technical reason, that would be more interesting. But Christian Bale seems to have a complete grasp on modern technology and science, at least you know, tertiary Just because they know one or two things doesn't mean they should know everything, which is what you want.
Speaker 1:You want to have like an encyclopedic knowledge of everything that's happened, everything.
Speaker 2:No, I don't believe that at all. Well, you could have done better with nailing down what this character actually is.
Speaker 1:I think we have to agree to disagree on this. I don't.
Speaker 2:Interesting. I think we should sit down together and even it I don't even understand where you're coming from.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, there was nuclear war in 2010, and then we're in 2020. They're in Northumberland, which is on the edge of England and Scotland, in this old castle, the remnants of a community that has gathered that he's watching over and trying to take care of. They are on the verge of starvation. Their crops are failing. They don't have hardly anything to eat.
Speaker 2:So what happens when there's no sunlight?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. I think one good thing they do is that the color palette of this film is all dark blues, dark grays. You get the oppressive nature of not only this apocalyptic world they're living in, but also pairing that with Northern England, Scotland Pairing it with David Fincher's vision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see that he's rigging up water pipes so that if there is some type of big flaming dragon stuff, ideally these water pipes will be able to save some of them and save their compound. It's funny that he would later go on to be John Connor in a Terminator film, because in this he is John Connor.
Speaker 2:I was literally thinking that yes, 100%. He's the last of the resistance of humanity, and not only that, but because you're completely, I absolutely agree. But also another parallel though it's going back a little bit is the very beginning with Alice Creek, his mother and everything. Is that not just the essentially the opening scene to Gareth Edwards' Godzilla?
Speaker 1:Remember Were there weather and everything. Is that not just the essentially the opening?
Speaker 2:scene to gareth edwards godzilla remember where they're in the nuclear? I do not remember the opening scene to gareth edwards godzilla. No, we're cranston, they're in japan and then, like they're working with a nuclear plant and they have a quote, earthquake and his wife gets trapped and he has to like seal it off and his wife dies. It's almost the exact same beat for beat scene. I mean, at least existentially it's the same opening early on fridging a mother or or wife characters.
Speaker 1:Is not that no?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, don't, don't oversimplify it. I'm saying like this is very specific. This is we're talking about a monster that nobody knows exists, coming out of nowhere. In this situation, where these two related people are trying to figure out how to deal with the situation and then one of them dies trying to save the other one. Essentially, I mean, it's almost the exact thing.
Speaker 1:I don't remember that opening. Well, very well, it's actually one of the only good parts of the movie.
Speaker 2:to be perfectly honest, Well see, I don't. Yeah, it's. It's not a film I've ever felt the need to go back. I've gone back and re-watched it many times, because every time I'm like if he had just done this it would have been so much better.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's still in my mind. It's the best of all of those recent kong and godzilla films by far.
Speaker 2:That's not even that's sad, but it also it hasn't reached out to me to see it again.
Speaker 1:So at this point, then, we meet Bale talking to the kids, doing their performance of a story that he made up to the kids, and before they go to bed they have to say their prayer, which I think is another thing that stands out from this film.
Speaker 2:It's not a religious prayer really.
Speaker 1:No, it's more of a mantra yeah, yeah To like survive.
Speaker 2:It's more like stop, drop and roll than it is anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because what do we do when we wake? We keep both eyes on the sky. What do we do when we sleep? Keep one eye on the sky. What do we do when we see them? Dig deep, dig hard, run for shelter, never look back?
Speaker 2:Never give up, never surrender Right. The funny thing about that one is If you were hearing this.
Speaker 1:you are the last of the resistance, but they go off to their Spartan bunk existences. We've seen one gentleman who tried to take one of the vehicles and go harvest the tomato crop before it was ready. Bale's character wouldn't allow it to happen. If they don't mature, they're not going to have anything to plant.
Speaker 2:See, I found this compelling.
Speaker 1:It is. Yeah, he's like like, well, we're going to die before that happens. We're all going to starve to death before. But bale's like.
Speaker 2:You know, you have to think about the whole community, not just your family or yourself yeah, I feel like they could have done a lot more with, like, if this were a series, this would be like an arc of several episodes it could have been.
Speaker 1:I think that would have been stretching it a bit well, but at least an episode.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Instead of yeah, instead of a two or three minute sequence, this would have been a whole, because if this was the walking dead, that would be an arc right, right, and the walking dead was way too dragged out. So well, yeah, I'm not literally saying walking dead, just that kind of scenario I know.
Speaker 1:I think it's a great streamlined setup for their situation. They're in, yeah, a little bit of pushback with his leadership and what is at stake, because then in the middle of night that guy he takes the keys back and goes out with his kids to the field to try to pick some of this vegetables. Of course I do like that. They have. They've trained hawks or where they've trained, or they've just hawks instinctively know the dragons around and are the canary in the coal mine, as it were, for their presence this is just my adhd and stupid, crazy shit in my brain.
Speaker 2:but I was so conflicted watching it whether or not it was a hawk or a falcon, because technically the wrangler would have been a falconer and so I wonder if it was actually a hawk or a falcon. And I didn't look it up because also ADHD, but it really bothered me for a long time. And then I went down a rabbit hole about that actor who is the falconer, who is also in Toast of London, and then a bunch of other sci-fi stuff in the past. That's a sad, pathetic look at my life.
Speaker 1:But it warns us that a dragon's in the area. We see that this dragon has found the guys who snuck out to reap the crop. The dragon smartly burns some of the crop and also burns their vehicle so they can't get away. Which makes me question like how smart are these dragons? Right right, how much they know human behavior, culture and abilities? I who knows? I think keeping that a mystery is also good I guess.
Speaker 2:But I feel like that should come into play, but then it doesn't really. I mean it kind of does, but not really. I mean it doesn't pay off. The, the intelligence of them, doesn't really pay off. I mean it kind of does at the end kind of, but yeah, you don't get enough time with the dragons to know.
Speaker 1:I think that's also probably budgetary. They couldn't show the dragons nearly as much as they wanted.
Speaker 2:Well, and also time-related, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a pretty tight. I mean it's an hour 41. They are moving along.
Speaker 2:Today, this would be a four-hour movie, yeah.
Speaker 1:Killers of Flower Dragon.
Speaker 2:Or the Irishman or the Scotsman.
Speaker 1:The Irish Dragon.
Speaker 2:That's called Dragonheart. Oh no, he's Scottish, which will come up later in this episode. Oh, I was hoping so, because the parallels are fucking hilarious.
Speaker 1:But anyway, they are about to die. It does snatch one of them up and eats them, which also offers another question of what is the diet of these dragons? Sometimes they're eating people, sometimes they're not.
Speaker 2:What is the nutrient content of ash?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean again that's a big yeah. Okay, that that's a big yeah. Okay, that's what they do, moving along.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, okay. So if you think about it logistically, so okay, sometimes they eat people, okay, sure, but your main diet is ash. So are you eating people to make a point or is the making ash out of your prey the point? Because they're making a point, because you don't do both. You know that's not how that works out of your prey. The point? Because they're making a point because you don't do both. You know that's not how that works.
Speaker 1:One assumes not no, I mean.
Speaker 2:But no, like logistically, just as an animal, how an animal works. That doesn't make sense, because I think one of those two things leans into their intelligence that they hint at he's making a statement, or she I guess it's a. She is making a statement by raising the crops because it knows that's the food source and then eats one person well, okay, two things.
Speaker 1:One, we don't see it swallow, that's true. The person that is true. We never see it actually eat anybody. They kill multiple people with their mouths, but we don't actually see them eat anybody, it's true. Two, the family is saved because a water cannon truck and guys in volcano suits show up to save them. They're spraying water everywhere. They're able to get out. The dragon does not chase them, because Christian Bale says it wasn't for you, it was there for the crops to make ash and eat that crops to make ash and eat that?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a. It's one in a series of throwaway explanation lines that you know, because when people like you and I have questions like that, this movie, at almost every turn, just has one line that the bail is like. This is science. Shut up, here we go, let's move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah I think there are certain times when it depends, within the context of each film and story, of how much is needed to explain what is happening In this film. A lot of times it gets the benefit of the doubt In my mind. I don't think it does for you.
Speaker 2:Well, don't get me wrong, I love this movie. It's just there are things about it that don't make a lot of sense, that I feel like could have been corrected. That's all this movie's great. I absolutely thoroughly enjoy this film. I'm only arguing because I feel like it could have been such a bigger masterpiece and it's. I really don't understand this movie thing for most American audiences audiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it. Let's say I mean it did fail. This is coming essentially from the minds of two guys who had never done any films before. Yeah, it's coming from a director who mostly did television stuff before this oh, man, and I can't wait to go down that list so I mean that maybe there are there are a lot of things that just didn't quite work. Yeah, I I think, I think it probably had a bit of a ceiling and I I think it's fairly close to what it could have been.
Speaker 2:But also, I don't find, I don't know you don't think it's a flawless movie, oh no.
Speaker 1:No, but I also don't think it had, I don't think it had the wings to ascend too much higher than it is.
Speaker 2:You're really milking that metaphor, aren't you?
Speaker 1:I'm on fire, my friend.
Speaker 2:That's not a mixing metaphor. You can't do that.
Speaker 1:Am I burning your ears? After the family is mostly saved because there are some casualties, you get another flashback. The old magazine features and then Dr Bashir hears some voices on the radio.
Speaker 2:Those scenes are funny too, because he's my favorite Star Trek Doctor character and I always root for Alexander Sittig, you know. And then if you watch almost all of the scenes starring him, he doesn't have dialogue, he's just sitting and staring, listening to things.
Speaker 1:I mean at least what he'd just been on.
Speaker 2:It's funny because, like that's almost his entire career, he was in clash of the titans. The remake and almost all of his dialogue was cut out of the movie, and so there's a couple of scenes where he's just standing there I think siriana's probably his most talking other than like game of thrones, yeah, but I mean even that he's only in like two episodes. So you know, I just feel badly for him.
Speaker 1:He's in six episodes of Peaky Blinders. I didn't know that, but what he hears is a group of convoy of tanks. And well, I think there are two tanks. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:It's a series of tanks.
Speaker 1:A convoy? Sorry, Chris Christopherson, A train if you were. You're about one dragon cunt her way from hillbilly heaven. But no, some people are rolling up. An alarm is raised. We assume that it's another roving band who's trying to take over the castle and steal their goods and whatnot, but it turns out to be an American military unit led by Matthew McConaughey as Van Zant.
Speaker 2:Van Zant yeah.
Speaker 1:Actually. No, it's just Van Zant, denton Van Zant, there's no T.
Speaker 2:Gus, I thought it was just Gus Van Zant, oh it's.
Speaker 1:Gus Van Zant. Yeah, Denton Van Zant is going to talk to the leader of the thing. A. Quinn Abercrombie Forgot to mention that name.
Speaker 2:It's a bad lips name, which is Christian Bale's name.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, they're Choice, choice, uh, alex Jensen.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's another like random, Just roll the dice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you got Creedy and Eddie Stacks and Barlow.
Speaker 2:Are these not Scorsese characters?
Speaker 1:There's a character named Goosh. Oh yeah, that's right. Goosh, Right in the Goosh Right in the Goosh, but he has come. He's like. I know I'm not here, I'm just going to stay the night. Just need to get some rations and a place to cover ahead, because we are killing dragons and Bale's character is like it's bullshit. We've heard that fairy tale before. You can get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2:Where has he heard that before?
Speaker 1:I think it's one of those things that you know. People have made up stories to make themselves sound like badasses, that they kill dragons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, but I mean, if they have no outside contact with the rest of the world, where have they heard that before?
Speaker 1:Oh for me, the world. Where have they heard that before? Oh, I for me. I just assumed they had many encounters with many people over the years and by this point it's kind of dwindled off and that you don't really see many people anymore outside of your group, that you're huddled up with yeah but he doesn't believe him. Mcconaughey's van zandt goes on to explain about the trophy around his neck, which is a dragon tooth, and and has the first one he killed which, by the way, he's in coffeeville kansas it is which is very, very close to where my grandmother moved to.
Speaker 2:My grandparents moved to in the 90s. They were in a tyro um no, I'm sorry. Yeah, taylor taylor, taylor kansas, which is basically right outside of Coffeyville. So I have been to Coffeyville many times.
Speaker 1:My parents literally have a burial plot set aside in Coffeyville, Kansas. What? Why? That's where I believe my mother's side of the family is buried there.
Speaker 2:Fascinating. I didn't know we had that connection, because who the fuck else knows about Coffeyville, kansas? Yeah, I think I've only been there once or twice as a small child, but yeah, but I wonder if one of the writers was secretly from that area, because that is a weird random pull it is, or maybe it's to tell the story.
Speaker 1:He goes on to talk about killing coffeeville kansas. They talk about how he thinks he's figured out how to kill them. Is that their vision during the days is great and their vision at night is even better, but it's that the time in between, at dusk, the quote-unquote magic hour, where they can't quite focus as well which is the lighting of the entire movie, the entire time.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I also like the idea that he was about to die and then the dragon swoops down and can't quite focus on him, which is the only way he's able to kill that dragon oh yeah because in the story his crew's been decimated and it's coming right at him and he's about to die, but the it shoots its flames missing him because it can't see him good enough, and then he's able to get the kill shot to bring it down.
Speaker 1:And then they goes on to talk about the dalton boys oh god another thing in cofferville, kansas, yeah, where the townsfolk rose up as one to take down this marauding gang, which he's kind of like hey, this is just like you guys, we're gonna band together and we can take down these dragons with each other's help. Quinn is a little unsure, but he believes what he sees in van zandt's eyes and lets him in. It's weird, though, because how many times what he sees in Van Zant's eyes and lets him in?
Speaker 2:It's weird, though, because how many times has he done this? I mean, he's come from America to Britain and really north in Britain on the ground, so has he been giving this speech to everybody?
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess we don't really know exactly. I think if there had been more films, we would have seen a Van Zant prequel, you know, Dragon Hunt Van Zant.
Speaker 2:Where he's kind of a villain like half the time.
Speaker 1:That is. One thing I like about this is that he's set up as a possible hero, kind of takes a villainous turn as a kind of antagonist but they're both on the same path sees the error of his ways and and comes back to being on the protagonist's side, even taking a subservient role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right. I think McConaughey's character is way more complex than this movie gives him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, quite frankly, we always talk about the McConaissance when we were like, oh shit, McConaughey's actually a good actor. You know True Detective and Dallas Buyers Club, and if you really watch him in this movie he's killing it.
Speaker 1:He's really good, oh it's. I'll have some stories about how much he again just dove headfirst into this character.
Speaker 2:He's great in this movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially since this was right around Wedding Planner how to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. I remember when this came out I didn't take it seriously because McConaughey was in it. It just felt weird and tacked on. But now, looking back on it, now that we've seen what he can do, he's out acting Bale by a mile. In fact, he's out acting everyone in the movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he steals the show both with his character, his brashness, his look.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He has these tattoos which I'll get into where those came from Okay, interesting, these tattoos which I'll get into, like where those came from, okay, interesting. That's from the mind of mcconaughey and his refinement of this character love it. He's jacked in the mcconaughey sense but kind of looks more like a tyler durden body frame, but he's fucking sex appeal.
Speaker 2:he's got the shaved head, this military scarf goatee no, god, not a goatee, he's got a giant beard oh yeah, the beard thing, yeah they put every sexy thing about men in a hat. They pulled out this character of Mads Mikada.
Speaker 1:But he convinces Bale to let him in. They talk about. Their plan is that they've been tracking the vague history of the spread of these dragons, and it seems to originate from London.
Speaker 2:They did real science, though Genetically they tracked it. No, I originate from london. They did real science, though genetically they tracked it. No, I'm serious. They talk about that. That's why that woman is there. She's the scientist that tracked down the lineage of the dragons I don't remember them saying anything about genetic well, I'm trying to remember. They realize that they're all female, except for they believe there's one male right, but they actually go out of their way to say that we traced. They trace it all the way back to London, specifically to London.
Speaker 1:It isn't just supposition or what See, I thought they traced back dragons spreading to London and so they think that's I'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll come back to that. But they talk about how they do it a little bit. And they have these bullemen, which isn't something I really had heard about, I think, before this, but they were in Greco-Roman games. The bullmen would throw nets on people. So they have these insane things. They also have this helicopter, which is very important that they have these bullmen hop out of. They coordinate.
Speaker 2:So many questions about the helicopters when?
Speaker 1:this dragon would be, and then they net it and then it crashes and they kill it. I don't understand how many people they would have gone through to figure this, but I mean it's cinematically interesting. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Wouldn't it be easier to like shoot nets from the ground if you were going to do that? So you see this helicopter come in these tanks. Who has gasoline and oil?
Speaker 2:or jet fuel. Yeah, where the fuck are they getting it? Where are they storing it, especially since they go all the way up there, right, and then they're going to go all the way down to London? They don't have giant barrels and canisters full of fuel. And how are they refining it if they did, because that shit goes bad? I mean, where are they getting any of this stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Not at all, and they're just shooting bullets constantly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like how? Who is manufacturing bullets at this point? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, other than Fury Road, which actually goes out as a way to explain that there is a place that makes bullets.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wasteland. They set up this plan. This is what they're going to do. You know, bale, will you come with us? You know I'll let you stay the night, but I don't really trust you. And good luck on your thing. I'm never going back there. I don't need to be in it, because they're like wait, do you know what we're talking about? Do you know about this male dragon? Do you know about any of this? And he's like I don't know. But then they have a mission. The dragon has come, so you see them do their thing. They're guys on motorcycles. They quickly are taken out to set up their triangulated position, and then the, the bull men. It's cool seeing them skydive out of this helicopter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was kind of cool. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:Oh, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Speaker 2:Especially a helicopter.
Speaker 1:Also, are they wearing parachutes? I don't know.
Speaker 2:And it's yeah, parachutes, I don't know, uh, and it's yeah. It's funny because they make a big deal about how, like, they lost those men and they're like, well, you're jumping out of helicopters of course you're gonna lose some dudes.
Speaker 1:Well, also, like they say they had, they lost like hundreds of guys on the way to, to where they're at yeah they had this whole huge force of hundreds of soldiers and they lost everybody 50 people but they lose one every time they fight.
Speaker 2:But then they blame these guys for losing the guys that they initiated the fight with. You know, I just doesn't. It doesn't really add up that is one thing.
Speaker 1:So they do end up taking down with the help of bail. They help take down this dragon. You cut to a party. There's actual music playing old time music. I don't know where they have tapes or CD player or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:They're listening to music, they're drinking their moonshine. They've made. They're really excited, the community is really excited. They killed a dragon. You know, that's something that they've never even thought was possible and it's happened. And then Van Zant and his American soldiers come in. Oh God, what is this line? Because he chastises them for celebrating. He's like we just lost these people who helped kill this thing. What are you celebrating for? There's nothing to be celebrating. You should be mourning the loss. So he's pissed and I did it.
Speaker 1:He's in the right, but he's also the antagonist, which leads to the next scene.
Speaker 2:First off, I think he's great in that scene. Tears welling in his eyes, you can see the anger, but he's still stoic and like internalizing it. You can tell you know. But then, yeah, because of what you were saying earlier, you've lost all these guys. You lose guys every time you do this. Why are you now? Are you upset that these people are celebrating the only good thing that's ever happened to them? Do you do this at every party? Stop inviting this guy to parties.
Speaker 1:Well, let's be honest, he's not a party guy.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know. He kind of reminds me of Michael Ironside from Starship Troopers, where every now and then he'll bring a keg of beer for the boys.
Speaker 1:Well, later on he pulls out a flask and takes a shot, right before the final battle, that is true. Then Bale takes a shot and he's like, oh, this is his water. He's like, well, yeah, he's not drinking, he's just out here to kill dragons, he's not a.
Speaker 2:That was a weird point that leads to a way bigger question about his character that they do not touch on at all.
Speaker 1:You don't get a whole lot. He's a mysterious figure that is there to drive the plot.
Speaker 2:But you give them so many teases of a really fascinating character that you probably want to see a whole series about. Yeah, but they don't do anything with it.
Speaker 1:I mean personally. For me, I like that. Having someone you want to see more of and you want to know more about but you don't get a chance to. It makes it intriguing. It makes for an interesting watch. The night goes on. In the morning it wakes up. You hear that Van Zant has rounded up a bunch of the guys he is now trying to take volunteers to replenish his army. One of them that is trying to go with Van Zant is the young boy that Bale's character had found and pseudo-adopted as his son, second command grooming to take over for him.
Speaker 2:Protégé.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a protégé, that's a perfect.
Speaker 2:And maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the reference to Empire Strikes is there, in that His son is not going to follow in his footsteps, I think is there. I think that's on purpose, because he doesn't follow in his footsteps, he rejects it and goes off with McConaughey.
Speaker 1:Right, or he's about McConaughey's like hey, we didn't have enough volunteers, so I'm rounding people up. You know, you, you and you take the ten strongest men and pack them up. They're coming with us. Bale tries to fight him, gives him a sucker punch. Van Zandt kind of roundly beats his ass before he's pulled off hard.
Speaker 2:He even fucking killed him too which is great.
Speaker 1:You see, like again, you have your protagonist. He is emasculated by this semi-antagonist who's on this mission and doesn't care about who to make friends with, he's just trying to get the job done I'd call him an anti-hero, yeah, yeah, because you still root for him, but he's also an asshole yeah, that's when the protege decides hey, I'm gonna go with this guy within the context of the film is the stronger, more driven guy. You're just trying to keep us alive, but he's trying to live, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:So the reason this scene comes up is because of this pivotal moment where you find out why they're actually there. Bail, the female scientist who is such a non-character that they don't even really I don't remember her name, which is I mean scientist, I think is being she's a helicopter pilot.
Speaker 1:I mean, I thought she was military helicopter pilot.
Speaker 2:Oh no, you're right, I think I'm projecting too much yeah she's just some, she's just on his side or whatever. So they get pulled aside with bale and they're like, but kind of, hey, it talks about the tooth, and he's like we're going to build a wall with these things. And and Bale's like, unfortunately it's going to be a very long wall. And then that's when he's like I'm out of resources, I'm out of men. That's when you find out they're all female because they discovered an egg that was being guarded by one of them. Once again, almost exactly like Gareth Edwards' Godzilla, the main villain is a female. You don't find out until later. And then the giant male shows up. It's exactly what happens in that movie. And then they hit 200 of them. They're all females.
Speaker 2:And Bale's like I don't know what I'm running, I don't start to look at the plumbing. And then McConaughey goes well, we have Alex discovered about two years back how the fire in the OK. So that's what I'm saying. So Alex, the helicopter pilot this is what I guess I was thinking of Alex discovered the fireworks in their glands, or whatever, to which Bale says Alex discovered it about two years back, how the fire in the glands. That's McConaughey, and then Bale interrupts him and he goes two glands in the mouth. Secrete chemicals yes, that's right. Combine in exhalation nitro napalm. That's Christian Bale saying that? This is what I was saying, that this is an articulate scientific explanation for a guy who supposedly doesn't know anything about anything because he grew up in an apocalypse.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's probably other things they know about dragons, that they found Dead dragons and examining them In fairness. The next line is, yeah, the chemical engineer things they know about dragons that they found dead dragons and and examining that in fairness.
Speaker 2:The next line is yeah, the chemical engineer. That was his theory.
Speaker 1:He's dead now, but they had a chemical engineer right, that was his assumption based on the limited information. And they also have a guy who used to work in a blast furnace. So he's worked on the pipes and has a little bit of knowledge, but he's not going to know the history of dragons or everything about them. He know a little bit of knowledge, but he's not going to know the history of dragons or everything about them. He knows a little bit about. You needed someone to explain that. I mean both the director and the screenwriter. They talk about how they wanted it to be somewhat scientific based and pull it away from the fantasy.
Speaker 2:Sure, which in some ways I think is great.
Speaker 1:Bale, lets his protege go. If you're man enough to talk to me and stand up for yourself, then you're man enough to talk to me. You know, stand up for yourself and you're man enough to go with him, let's him go do his thing. Van Zant, they get what do you guess? Like a few miles out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, barely.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then they get attacked. We assume this is the male dragon, but I don't think we know. Well, do we know? It's not a male dragon, it's a male dragon Right?
Speaker 1:Well, bale goes to look at the dragon that died previously, that he helped take down the day before. Yeah, and that's when he finds the egg inside of it, you know what I'm saying, but you're talking about when they go out with their. So once Van Zandt has taken the people and he goes with his caravan, they're going to go to London. I don't think they get to London, no they don't. They get attacked before then.
Speaker 2:Yes, by a female.
Speaker 1:By a female right, they get decimated. He loses everybody essentially.
Speaker 2:Most.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he's able to barely escape. Bale is trying to get the last of the vegetation that we saw was attacked. The first 15 minutes of the film we see that his protege didn't end up going with Van Zant, so he was saved and he's there to help Bale. Then we see Van Zant coming back with his tail between his legs, saying you were right, I shouldn't have gone to do what I was doing. I need your help. Bale then decides to help them.
Speaker 2:Don't they get attacked, they get attacked. Right the castle gets attacked them, don't they get attacked? They get attacked, right the castle. Oh, right, right, right, sorry, yeah, okay, because that's why I think it's the male dragon. I don't know, I don't think you see it until london, because the male wouldn't have left his nest. Uh, aram thing, because you don't see it until they go over the. So they go, they get all the way to london and they look over the ridge. Then you get revealed the giant majestic male dragon.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so because Van Zant went out to go attack them, the dragon then traces back probably by smell, I guess where they came from and attacks the stronghold at the castle Bail, is able to get most of the kids and some people and hold them up in the basement where they've fortified the area with the water and doors.
Speaker 1:Chapter escape of thrones yep yep, before gerard butler, his best friend, can save himself and get inside. He kind of pseudo sacrifices himself to help close the door because the dragon lights that place up burns. It destroys everything they had. They survive. Van zant comes back. He's like sorry, I, it's because of me that the dragon then came back to attack you. That's when Bale's like all right, I have to go do something to try and save the last little bit of people we have. So the helicopter pilot and Van Zant go for a secret mission to go kill the male dragon. They go along the coastline. I mean, I guess it makes sense that dragons wouldn't want to hang out in the ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean again, your why go along? I guess maybe to the sound of the waves might block out the sound of the rotors or, you know, maybe you're out of the eyesight because you're off the coast, who knows, I don't know. Yeah, anyway knows, I don't know, yeah, anyway, they get to london. This is a weird part of the film where I don't know if this was just punch up, but all of a sudden christian bale gets a sense of humor and starts making these weird jokes yeah, it was weird, wasn't it yeah?
Speaker 1:it was like totally off. This is like a different film yes that the dialogue is coming from yes, 100 yeah, I don't really get that. But he's like I'm gonna take you in these, we'll go right to where it was, but there are all of these dragons. It's like a warning sign. We're out for the dragons. London is filled with these dragons. There's no way they're going to go through unseen. But the big male dragon who's much bigger than the female. I think it's like it's crazy disparity.
Speaker 1:I have it somewhere, but the female dragons were conceived at 160 feet long with a 240 foot wingspan. The bull male is instead 180 feet long with an enormous 320 foot wingspan.
Speaker 2:Jesus, how does it even fly?
Speaker 1:Dragons move along, and so we see that they appear to be starving, as the male dragon eats one of the females in an act of cannibalism and then goes back to his perch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're like, oh, they're starving, but that is another problem. If they eat ash, why do they have to eat live prey?
Speaker 1:and how do they survive if they're gonna all? How do they go like their hibernation thing if they've already eaten everything and they're eating themselves?
Speaker 2:evolutionarily. None of that makes any sense whatsoever.
Speaker 1:When does that start? Who knows, Again dragons, whatever.
Speaker 2:Then make it fantasy. Don't make it sci-fi. That's the heart of the issue. Don't make it sci-fi. When you get to the part where it's supposed to be sci-fi, go no.
Speaker 1:We're dancing a little bit in this box and a little bit in that box Schrodinger's plot. So they have this plan. They're going to sneak up on the male dragon. They have these three explosive tip arrows.
Speaker 2:Magnesium C4.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that they're going to shoot with crossbows right before. As he goes like take a breath before he blows fire on somebody, he heaves his chest up, leaves it exposed. That's the only time that his chest, which I guess is his weak spot, is exposed, and that's when they're going to hit it. They're going to try to hit him from three different angles or triangulate again. The plan isn't super laid out. They don't really have a chance for that because, as they do, the male dragon knows they're there and is toying with them, sets their plan awry, so they all get kind of split up. Van Zant decides to take the high ground to maybe try and shoot him from above.
Speaker 2:Don't forget, during this whole thing, like early on, when Van Zant wanted to take Bale's men, he does this line where he's like I lead, you follow. And then, when they're there, at this point, when Van Zant realized he fucked up and he ruined their chance and that whole thing, he turns to Bale and says you lead, I follow, which is a really important plot point.
Speaker 1:I think it's great for that character. You see that he's not some crazy Viking, is that? He's just driven to do this mission. He sees the error of his ways and again, a good thing about the film and the characterization at a very important moment. Yeah, so he's up there, he goes to to shoot the arrow at the dragon coming at him.
Speaker 2:The arrow misses, right or not, it explodes. So what he does is he shoots the arrow at him, but as the dragon is starting to spit fire, so it just blows up collide and it blows up in the dragon's face. It doesn't penetrate the dragon, it just creates this huge explosion that maybe I don't even know, for engine.
Speaker 1:I think it kind of gave him like oh whoa, these little humans, they have something going on.
Speaker 2:I should be a little more careful with them except for well, I mean, yeah, that's very possible, but except for ever everything that happens after that. The dragon can't fly right in his billowing black smoke the entire time, so I'm pretty sure it fucked him up pretty bad, but not in the way they wanted to right, yeah, and then we have, I think, the scene that is emblazoned in people's memories.
Speaker 1:In the trailer, van zant takes off his, his fatigue top and everything and he has this axe, this dragon killing huge ass axe, and he decides to like do the suicide dive with this axe from the top of the smokestack down on this dragon. It's going to be his hero moment. As it's coming, oh no, the dragon just snaps him up right from the air.
Speaker 2:Why would anyone do that? What are you doing? There was no point to that. He didn't give anybody an advantage. He didn't delay things so like a plan could be executed and he knew he was going to die, and he knew that an axe wasn't going to kill the dragon. Why the fuck did he do that?
Speaker 1:Rule of cool, I think.
Speaker 2:That's got to be it right. He wanted to go out like a badass. That's it right, I think, to go out like a badass.
Speaker 1:I think he knew that once he missed with the arrow that it didn't do the job. He was just gonna try to just go out in a blaze of glory.
Speaker 2:Okay, but that makes him kind of an asshole, because if he were sacrificing himself to give the others opportunity to kill the dragon, that would make sense and make him a hero. This makes him kind of a douchebag.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2:I mean, it just doesn't make any sense otherwise.
Speaker 1:No again, it's just, you want something cool and something evocative and cinematic in the film.
Speaker 2:He drugged them all the way. There has this elaborate plan to save the universe and then, when his first attempt doesn't work, he's just like fuck it and jumps in its mouth. What a fucking asshole.
Speaker 1:That's a terrible plan, I mean uh, if I wonder if this is like an honorable way to die. He has lost everything. He's lost all of his soldiers, he's lost all of his resources. He has nothing else. And he, specifically, has been someone who's like I'm trying to live, not just survive. My purpose is to kill these things. If all that's been taken away from me, I don't want to let go with my tail between my legs back to this burned out castle to starve to death.
Speaker 2:Sure, let's look at it from a narrative perspective. If that were the case, then he should have had a scene where he looks at a collection of dog tags from all the men that have died under his command, or he realizes he's going to die. I might as well go out doing something that'll benefit them, trying to kill the dragon. He doesn't do any of that. He just goes oh fuck it. And jumps into the air with an axe, knowing that's not going to do anything. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:Oh no, no, it doesn't make sense. I'm just trying to provide the smallest modicum of explanation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're going devil's advocate there is it meant to make sense? But it could have. All you needed was a couple of lines and rearrange some scenes like a couple of scenes. It's not even very long. That's.
Speaker 1:The weird thing about this movie is that they make these odd choices that you don't have to I would say it would have been cooler if, instead of the axe, you know he had Bomb or something yeah, bomb. So one of maybe the most, maybe the best part of Kong Skull Island is when you have the character who knows he's going to die from this giant lizard creature that's going to eat him, and so he's decided to try to get eaten. But blow the creature up from inside with the grenades. He has right, and the creature is coming at him, you think it's about to eat him, but instead flips around, smashes him with his tail, he flies up into the side of a mountain and explodes fruitlessly, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it goes against archetype and stereotype, but it makes sense and his heart is in the right place and everything. Yeah, but McConaughey, there's none of that Like there's no plan, yeah, thing, yeah, but mcconaughey, there's none of that.
Speaker 2:Like there's no plan, yeah, again, not at all. No, no, there isn't. In fact, he kind of fucks everyone over by doing that, because he was another point of attack that could have at least distracted the dragon so that they could do something, but then nothing, he just dies on purpose yeah, again I can try to explain with berserker rage, where he has nothing left and he's just jumping no, but he thinks about it well, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know how much he really thinks about it. I mean, he takes off his jacket and dives off with an axe.
Speaker 2:It's not like this is a long-term plan look, you're trying really hard and I appreciate that this is just devil's advocate.
Speaker 1:It is not something that makes sense. You can't really make it make sense.
Speaker 2:It makes zero sense.
Speaker 1:It's just a rule of cool. Yeah, something fun to see.
Speaker 2:They wanted something in the trailer that made an American guy look cool. That's it.
Speaker 1:Which I mean it does, and it also makes them look really dumb and impotent like the American military.
Speaker 2:Exactly, which is what I always thought the commentary was.
Speaker 1:Maybe the american military, exactly which is what I always thought the commentary was maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what it's trying to say. Well, actually, and you know what? That's a good point, because a member, early on gerard bartlett, says something to christian bale about that making fun of americans, like when mcconaughey first pulls up in the ramparts. I mean, that is kind of a commentary going through out of it, but at the same time you know that this movie was american, made to be released in america, so they, I guess, try to I think they're having their cake and eating it too.
Speaker 1:I think they're making fun of americans, but they're also showing like oh, americans, the only one who can get it done. Just like in world wars, you needed us to come save the day, right or I'm gonna go out like a badass yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's essentially what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though it has nothing to do with the plot, it actually kind of detracts from the plot and it makes no sense.
Speaker 1:It's both exciting and idiotic.
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%, which are Americans. It makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that fits. So then you're just like you have two of them left. In doing so, the dragon has hit the smokestack which has debris fall upon the helicopter pilot. She is able to get out, but she is injured and can't move very well. She regroups with Christian's bail character. They're looking for the arrow that he dropped, trying to escape the dragon. She sees it. She goes one way to try and distract it. He goes and gets the arrow and he's trying to put it in. He's able to get.
Speaker 2:But he had a lot of whiskey with that before.
Speaker 1:It's not his fault. This thing with the arrow happens to a lot of guys.
Speaker 2:I keep thinking about my ex-girlfriend.
Speaker 1:Why did you have to say that thing earlier? Why did you look at that dragon that's all I can think about that thing earlier. Why did you look at that dragon? That's all I can think about. So he's kind of having to stare down with, uh, the male dragon who's like slowly ambering its way up to him, and then heaves back and is about to light him up and bale, fires the arrow. It goes right into the dragon's mouth as he's uh, exhaling his fire, blows his neck up, decapitates him which is what you should have done to begin with, and I don't know why that.
Speaker 2:This is why it was dumb to mcconaughey. You could have just done that. What are you doing? Yeah, I mean I always thought that was the plan I think part of it.
Speaker 1:Again, we see that he isn't the most tactically minded. Except for the entire movie, he had one plan they had to then scramble it and had, when they actually got to London, like, oh, this plan isn't going to work, how about we do this instead, which doesn't work at all? We see most of his plans don't work. His helicopter thing doesn't really work. His mobile assault team to go to London doesn't work.
Speaker 2:No, I doesn't work. No, I know, but the character they set up is like oh, the only reason I'm alive is because I'm good at this and all of his men follow him because they assume he's good at this. But yeah, you're right. Yeah, none of his plans work. You would have thought at some point, if none of his plans ever work, his men would have abandoned him or he would have been killed or something. But when he gets to, I don't know, near sc Scotland, I guess his powers fade or whatever, and nothing works.
Speaker 1:Maybe his bravado and cocksurety has worn thin and Now he can't get it out. Now he limply dies.
Speaker 2:He hit that flask of water too hard.
Speaker 1:That's it. The finish, I think, kind of really comes out of nowhere. There isn't as much buildup, I think, for the end of this film, because they killed the male dragon and then it fades to the final scene, which we see in voiceover. It's three months after the last dragon has been seen in these parts.
Speaker 2:Nobody's seen Bruce Lee in a long time.
Speaker 1:After you had that fight on the movie set with Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was thinking with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but yeah, we're on the same page.
Speaker 1:After you plucked Chuck Norris' hair off his chest.
Speaker 2:That was so fucking badass.
Speaker 1:So we see him and the helicopter pilot, jensen. They are working on, I guess, radio towers up in a high point in the nearby area. The now slightly more grown-up protege says that they have heard radio signs from someone else. It seems to be french people bail, doesn't know french bail doesn't know french. Um well, he says he's his french.
Speaker 2:Is is rubbish, I think right, which again goes against the weird thing about him being a kid.
Speaker 1:You know like if he knows some french, you're like I think as an an eight to ten year old in england, it probably knows a little bit of French.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean most places in Europe, especially know multiple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the last bit of French that he knew. So he knows a little bit of French, but his French is awful. So of course he's going to say that. But it's also a way to tell like, hey, they're looking for the leader and he's like, well, they found him, it. You go, keep him on the line, you know, make sure to get us some wine or whatever. And then he picks up the axe and walks down with Jensen, who it's hard to tell whether, like, is she pregnant? Is she cold? And just holding her stomach, jacket shut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't make that clear.
Speaker 1:They don't make it clear whether they're in a relationship or anything.
Speaker 2:Except they're holding hands.
Speaker 1:They're holding hands. I'm pretty sure they're together.
Speaker 2:They're probably together there aren't a whole lot of options in this place. So right exactly. I mean it's unclear whether or not she's pregnant, but they're definitely together, definitely fucking yeah, I mean, why not?
Speaker 1:it's christian bale they're holding hands it's uh that leads it's pretty cold next to Edinburgh. But that's how the film ends. We see that humanity is on the course for surviving and restarting society, and dragons seem to be dead or dying out.
Speaker 2:It's really bizarre. So the male dies, fine, but all those millions of female dragons are still around and yet they haven't seen one for three months. I get that they're starving or whatever.
Speaker 1:well, we don't know how long it's been. They just say it's been three months since we last saw a dragon. That's true, so it could have been two years later. Dragons have been eating each other and starving out. They've retreated to other places that have more vegetation, or we don't really know but at the same time?
Speaker 2:if's the case, then I'd like to know more about that. Are they fighting each other for territory and resources?
Speaker 1:Skip, we have to end the film. We don't have time for that.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's exactly what this episode is. We have to end it. There's no time to talk about this.
Speaker 1:Stop trying to explain things. Get to the end.
Speaker 2:Don't put science in it if you're not going to explain anything.
Speaker 1:I think we should split this into two episodes yeah, no, it has to it has to discussing the reign of fire, which I think was pretty maligned when it came out. Critics were not nice to this film. I don't think it needed that bad of reviews, uh I think it's a serviceable, if not fun, especially a fun play on, you know, medieval and fantasy meeting modern day, post-apocalyptic uh, it's blending some genres, it's, but barely touches on any of them.
Speaker 2:It's just kind of the problem.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of it's kind of taking the flavor of these different things and making its own little salad. Yeah, like a side salad, I guess, yeah whether it's filling or a full meal, that's quite debatable, but I think it was tasty enough. It's definitely popcorn fare.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, A heightened B movie. If you're hungover on a Sunday afternoon, there are way worse movies to watch. This is actually pretty solid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a bad movie.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not at all.
Speaker 1:It's light on explanation, world building, on plot. It's very Spartan, it's very sparse, it's stripped down. It's point A to point B to point C, you're done. Characters are minimal.
Speaker 2:Minimal. And their motivations and backgrounds are also minimal at best yeah, yeah, you don't get any of that.
Speaker 1:They're like no, we don't have time for that. We have to get to the next plot point, right, the next scene, so we can wrap this thing up. We don't want to spend any more money on these dragons.
Speaker 2:Stop showing them yeah, don't talk about them anymore yeah it's funny too, because I think my biggest takeaways last night from re-watch it, other than what I've already mentioned, was that I think it's funny that Gerard Butler is third build with these two dudes, because this is 100% today the kind of movie that Gerard Butler would be the star of.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I mean, I have a whole thing about. I don't want to get too much into this. This might be something to put a pin in for the next episode. Sure, but they had some big thoughts about who would actually be starring in this film.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting Okay, they are big names way that they set up Matthew McConaughey's character, because they set him up almost the entire time. He's in the movie as a deus ex machina, but he shows up in the first act and that's weird. I think that's one of the reasons that people didn't like the movie, as much as because it didn't fit a very tight, archetypical, you know American movie story. It has some odd quirks that, uh, while people like you and I don't really worry about it, doesn't really seem to fit with a lot of mainstream audiences I can kind of see a bit of that.
Speaker 1:I think deus ex machina is a little overstating his role in the film.
Speaker 2:But that's not what he plays, but it's how they introduce him like, and the things he does is like what a deus ex machina would do in the third act of a movie yeah, but that's again.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's what he was intended to do. I mean, he's a, he's a conquering hero.
Speaker 2:That's not really a hero at all, and I know, and I think that's why people don't understand the film very well is because they treat him that way. He seems that way to audiences, but he's not, and he's not even written that way. But it's weird because I mean, it feels like he should be, but he's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean there's a lot of.
Speaker 2:We could get into this for a long time. I'm very interested in this. We got to cut this short, though by short I mean not short at all. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if we're just wrapping this up in a little dragon bow, I would say that you know, it's again a bit of action, a bit of science fiction, fantasy adventure, post-apocalyptic Mad Max with dragons in England, with three actors who were not nearly as big of stars as they are now.
Speaker 2:It's a good little dad for noon, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, good hangover.
Speaker 2:oh, 100 for sure, yeah you could have debates like this with your friends later that afternoon. You've sort of sobered up. It's a solid watch for that kind of scenario yeah, yeah, yeah because it's not a b movie, it's not one of those like it's so bad, it's great, I'm gonna show my friends because it sucks. No, it's actually. It flaws and those flaws can spark so many debates. But it's actually a pretty fun, well-crafted flick. And, honestly, say what you will about Rob Bowman.
Speaker 1:But the director, Rob Bowman.
Speaker 2:Right and we're going to get to that next time. But the VFX in this film I thought wouldn't stand up, but they show them so sparsely and so from a distance that they totally work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a thing we'll get into next episode, but they distinctly went out of their way to make dragons not silly, to make them menacing, to ground them in some type of reality and to make them horror villains that hide in the shadows and only pop up occasionally but they do such a great job of being so subtle about it that even when you get a direct look at them, it doesn't feel dated, it doesn't feel like you don't have to scrutinize it.
Speaker 2:Scrutinize it.
Speaker 1:Scrutinize it as much as you can.
Speaker 2:Game of thrones you know, he does a really good job of obscuring the shortcomings of cgi at that point to where, watching it, it holds up. If I didn't know better, I would say this movie could be passed off as a modern film. Yeah, even though it was 20 plus years ago yeah, no, they do a good job.
Speaker 1:There are some bits that don't quite hold up that is is true.
Speaker 1:Yes, but I think I would say your quote unquote, hero shots, they tend to still work and do a good job and I think the film itself does a decent job, being what it is, whether that resonated with audiences to unfortunately different story. But it did gain a bit of a cult classic status after it went to the home video market and years later. But we will get into that, into how this movie came to be and some interesting details on all of that in the next episode.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, We've got a lot to say about the behind the scenes and making of stuff. It's great. I don't know how we managed to get two episodes out of this movie, but man, we did.
Speaker 1:That's not what we intended. Not at all. I literally thought us covering the film was going to be 15 minutes.
Speaker 2:I did too, and now we're like, oh, can we fit it into two? Oh man, all right, but that's okay. Well, thank you guys for listening. I think this is a really fascinating one and, for real hardcore geeks out there, I think you're gonna agree with this. In fact, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people, when they uh hear this, are gonna do a lot of air fist pumping because this is a movie that nobody really talks about, but it's actually secretly, yeah really interesting.
Speaker 1:Before fully go out is this the best dragon movie?
Speaker 2:I you know what. I still hold a candle for dragon slayer. Okay, I think that's a really great one, but those are the best two by far. I mean, I can't think of another one that's even close. And I'm not counting how to train your dragon oh no, I mean, which aren't bad films?
Speaker 1:I?
Speaker 2:sure, but those are kids movies and that's different. I mean, I don't know, yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna think about those.
Speaker 1:The best live action dragon how about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean it's got to be one or two by far. Dragonheart sucks. They made like four of those movies, I think poor dragonheart it sucks yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to bat for dragonheart, all right, but what you should go to bat for is dispatch hx podcast. Please like, share, subscribe, pass along to your friends, relatives, dudes or dragons.
Speaker 2:But only your friends' relatives. Only your mother's, cousin's, father's uncle who unfortunately, is like a big maga head and you can't stand listening to him, but he will like this.
Speaker 1:He's gonna love this dragon talk. I guarantee it.
Speaker 2:Next time on Dragon Talk.
Speaker 1:Can dragons love?
Speaker 2:Do dragons feel Slut dragon?
Speaker 1:If you wouldn't mind giving us dragon eggs on the podcast catcher app of your choice, ideally Apple Podcasts we'd greatly appreciate it. And again, follow us on social media for all the dragon talk that you won't get.
Speaker 2:Anywhere else.
Speaker 1:Anywhere else. Yeah Skip, take us to our dragon lair.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're going to go right back into that pile of gold coins. Please, ladies and gentlemen, make sure you have paid your tabs, make sure you've cleaned up after yourselves to some sort of reasonable degree. Make sure you're not trying to steal from Smaug.
Speaker 1:Smaug.
Speaker 2:I still don't. I get it, but I mean smog just sounds better Make sure. Too much smog in here oh, it's just cock smoke. It's a big, big list. Don't forget to support your local comic shops and retailers. And from Dispatch HX we would like to say Godspeed.
Speaker 1:Fair wizards, yoga flame.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm very confused by Please go away.