Dispatch Ajax! Podcast
A Geek Culture Podcast - Two life-long Geeks explain, critique and poke fun at the major pillars of Geek Culture for your listening pleasure.
Dispatch Ajax! Podcast
Lost Episode: Jesus in Comics
A lost holiday episode from a year ago has been found!
What if Jesus Christ was more than just a historical figure, and instead, a modern-day superhero navigating the colorful pages of Marvel and DC Comics? We unravel this intriguing concept by examining how the iconic figure has been portrayed across major comic book universes. From the classic biblical narratives in DC's "Picture Stories from the Bible" to Marvel's bold 1990s adaptations, we speculate whether these portrayals were reactions to cultural waves like the Satanic Panic or simply creative retellings aimed at specific audiences. With a playful spirit, we reimagine biblical figures donning capes and tights, transforming age-old stories into superhero sagas.
Oh, bit of the f*** of the Irish, huh.
Speaker 2:The pipes, the pipes.
Speaker 1:Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds.
Speaker 2:Are they in the proper approach pattern for today? Negative.
Speaker 1:All weapons Now Charge the lightning field. Welcome back to Dispatch Ajax. I'm Jake.
Speaker 2:I'm Skip. That's the show.
Speaker 1:That is the show that you're listening to right now, because we're recording it and it's coming over the airwaves into your brain cells.
Speaker 2:That's not really how it works that's how the pad cast works it is odd, because this is neither radio, uh, nor is pad cast a thing listen to the good pad cast we shall consult. The good pad cast, we shall consult the good pad, I'll hail the pad.
Speaker 1:Okay, so on our recent journeys, we followed Jesus on his many adventures. He went to Asia, he went to India, but on this podcast he's going to go somewhere a little more, both esoteric and tangible.
Speaker 2:Disney World.
Speaker 1:He went down to the tunnels and never escaped. Well, but they found him three days later and threw him out. He has risen. No, today we're following Jesus on the pages of comic books. That's right. We're following Jesus on the pages of comic books that's right. The times that Jesus Christ was both in Marvel and DC, and what he means to both of them.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's really interesting. I can literally, and maybe we'll come to this at the end. I have um currently on my bookshelf, right next to me, a bunch of um Christian comic books from the seventies and eighties, 60s, sevents and 80s, 70s, 80s and today, and today.
Speaker 1:Obviously there hasn't been a ton of Jesus in comic books. Most of the times Jesus has shown up have been in retelling of biblical stories in graphic form, Stuff like the picture stories from the Bible New Testament. It was from DC. That was back from 1944 and 45. They were originally published DC and then the third and final issues were actually published in EC Comics when the publisher MC Gaines left DC to found his own company. I don't think they're still in print much.
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't imagine so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there have been quite a few different religious comic books that Marvel has done, the ones that are fairly specific just to the life of Jesus Christ. You will find the Life of Christ that Marvel did in 92 and 93. And they also did the Easter Story, which was also done in 93. 93 was a big year for Jesus and Marvel.
Speaker 2:Big, big time for Bob.
Speaker 1:Harris Jim.
Speaker 2:Shooter and Jesus Big winners that year, weirdly.
Speaker 1:Louise Simonson was the writer on both of those.
Speaker 2:What Really?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, maybe they just had a thing for Jesus. Okay, I don't really find those of much value for this discussion because, yeah, you're just telling out-of-canon stories about Jesus and the Bible.
Speaker 2:Okay, here's a question.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Do you think it's coincidental and maybe so, do you think it's coincidental that Marvel put out that at that particular time, just as Todd McFarlane, who just left marvel was putting out spawn? You know?
Speaker 1:what I mean as spawn being a jesus analog no, as spawn being a, an apocryphal christian adjacent anti-hero who's you know from hell.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like, like, as a response during the latter part of the Satanic Panic era, right.
Speaker 1:It's the Mountain Dew Extreme version of biblical tales.
Speaker 2:Right but.
Speaker 1:I mean, like is Marvel going back and just doing straight up'd probably take a less cynical view and say that in every decade they would do some spiritual comic books, whether it's about a pope or an apostle or St Francis of Assisi or Jesus or Moses. That's just something they do every few years, but it's all just one shot. It's not like they did like a series of them.
Speaker 2:They also didn't do like the Life of Muhammad or the Adventures of Abraham or whatever.
Speaker 1:Oh, no you know what I mean, not at all, In fact almost just Christian, not even like Old Testament stuff. I would say it is marketing and demographics. And think of how many copies they could sell to churches.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, but I mean it's odd that it came out at that time instead of like 87 or something. You know what I mean. I'm just wondering. I have nothing to back that up, I'm just curious.
Speaker 1:No, it's a valid question to raise To rat.
Speaker 2:That's for sure To rat With two Ts.
Speaker 1:On'm just curious. It's a valid question to raise To rat With two Ts On your pad, cast With your ape gusts. But yeah, I mean periodically companies not just Marvel and DC, other companies also put out Christian based comic books. You know, it's just scratching an itch and I think that particular demographic is always looking for like new hip ways to tell the same story, and comic books are an easy pipeline for that.
Speaker 2:It's just weird putting out those stories when Superman is a very obvious religious, you know, like allegory. So it's like, do you have to get real literal about it too, you know?
Speaker 1:I mean like uh, yes, yeah, that's true. And plus I mean again, as you've said many times, superman isn't jesus, superman is moses. Yeah, all right, this son of son of g that we got jason of g, see, that's the image title that I could see coming out in 93. He's the lost summers brother, is what he is, no no, j, son of g, is called splatter fest.
Speaker 2:They do the uh passion but it's just a bunch of dudes and big shoulder pads with a ton of pockets trying to save jesus and then just mowing down roman guards yeah, and and like there's judas and he's like a trickster demon with fucking metal wings, and pontius pilate is like a cybernetic ape, that one.
Speaker 1:I can see the judas thing. I think he's just a trickster. I think that's how we started out, but then then, when he was taken by I don't know whatever Satan analog we want to come up with.
Speaker 2:No, Kilgore, the aliens that cured the Flash when he got shot in the heart by Vandal Savage and cybernetically enhanced. That's what happened to Judas. Yeah, they took him and created the ultimate secular archangel, I guess. And then this thing writes itself.
Speaker 1:Man. Yeah, money is going to flow in from this bad boy, just like Jesus would want. You know, jesus always said make money off of my image, and that's something that unfortunately, in my opinion, both DC and Marvel haven't done enough of.
Speaker 2:Making money off of Jesus's image.
Speaker 1:Making money off of Jesus's image. Making money off of Jesus' image Because he just doesn't really pop up that much. You can tell that it is a delicate subject matter that they don't want to dip too much into. Most of the appearances of Jesus in comics tends to be like in minuscule flashbacks or in pictures of Jesus or references to Jesus, but rarely do they actually come out and discuss Jesus, his religious power, his godliness, any of that. It's mostly an untouched resource. An untouched resource, you know. Look what happens when you talk about Superboy kissed a guy. The fervor that comes from that kind of thing. If you talk about Jesus, jesus wasn't the son of God, you know? Or you know what if Jesus had magic powers?
Speaker 2:Boy, they never read Preacher, then did they?
Speaker 1:Now, obviously I am not.
Speaker 2:I'm not taking image comics, I'm not taking account much of vertigo, some vertigo stuff, but even vertigo tends to like dance around other characters within the biblical framework kind of I mean I mean you have like lucifer, that's a big character for them but I do appreciate that they go to the way to say that Lucifer is not Satan and that there are three reigning kings of hell in the Sandman universe. During the Vertigo run.
Speaker 1:I'm rereading and reading. Finally, because I have, like these big annotated versions of Sandman that I'm going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, like, it starts out with Lucifer being the king of hell, obviously, and then he leaves, he splits. That's when you get Mike Carey's wonderful Lucifer run, which then they made another Lucifer book from and they made a TV show. That is nothing like either of those no, and it sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had no desire to watch it. When you take here's lucifer, who was the ruler of hell, he leaves and find a way to get back at god and find his place in the universe, but you decide to turn that into a story of just hanging out in la and solving murders with detectives. What? Uh, I'm sorry what I, I, I will never understand that this is how you get a keanu Reeves Constantine. Which is, from what I've seen, still much better than that Lucifer show.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%. That is an accidentally pretty good movie.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's not great.
Speaker 2:There's some really cool stuff in that film, yeah and it's not Constantine, it's like his American cousin, steve Constantine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's Johnny Johnny from the coast. American cousin Steve Constantine yeah, it's Johnny Johnny from the coast.
Speaker 2:I do appreciate the casting. The guy that they did in Lucifer and was he in Lucifer? I know he was in. He had his own series, but he originally was in one of those other WB shows. The guy that they had play John Constantine in that, Finally, the only guy that looks like John Constantine oh yeah, no, that was like John Constantine. Oh yeah, no, that was actually a good casting, it was. He kind of looks like Sting. That's what he's supposed to be. Do they call it Constantine or do they call it Hellblazer? No, they call it Constantine.
Speaker 1:They call it Constantine.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1:And that ran like a season and then they canceled it. They canceled it.
Speaker 2:And, and then he came back in the DC stuff, the WBDC, he came back in the Doctor Who-ish one, legends of Tomorrow, oh right, where they're hopping around, yeah, where it's like the exiles, but Doctor who. It's so, doctor who, that they actually get one of the old Doctor who companions to come in and then his ship is called Wave Rider, instead of Wave Rider being a character. I don't know what it's supposed to be actually, because it has nothing to do with anything that ever happened in the comics that show is so weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that fell by the wayside for me because it started to become the glut of fairly routine Arrowverse. Dc shows that it's like I just don't have time for Greg Berlanti. Yeah, I'm sure if I was 14, I would have been like, oh, I'm just coming home from school and watching these and I'll absorb all of them, but I just didn't have the time or the effort.
Speaker 2:Honestly, but I understand what they were trying to do. I mean, they even brought Brandon Routh back as the Atom, but then also brought Brandon Routh back as Superman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. So for Jesus Christ in the DC universe, obviously you have to talk about different eras. Okay, you have the modern mainstream DC universe from 1930 to 2011. In that there is a Jesus Christ also known as the Nazarene. It's the Jesus, you know, when you look at his it's better than Jesus.
Speaker 2:You don't know.
Speaker 1:DC has his own database and they will describe certain characters. So Jesus has powers, he has healing Nice, he has molecular reconstruction, awesome Resurrection, cool Weather, manipulation, flash villain.
Speaker 2:And exorcismurrection, cool Weather, manipulation, flash villain and exorcism.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, he also has abilities such as carpentry, theology and storytelling.
Speaker 2:Oh man, Is this a collectible card game that I'm missing out on?
Speaker 1:If you're making a bard deck, I think Jesus will really work for you. This is a commander deck. I think Jesus will really work for you.
Speaker 2:This is a commander deck. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1:I haven't, I haven't. I'm so far out of the who loop.
Speaker 2:No no, no Magic the. Gathering's Doctor who, what I'm not making it up. You can go to Target and get it.
Speaker 1:Wait. So they did a Lord of the Rings one and then a Doctor who one.
Speaker 2:What yes Huh?
Speaker 1:Does it play with other magic cards? Yes, wow.
Speaker 2:You can buy a magic card with a Dalek. Huh, I had no idea If you're into magic at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, magic's like a. I respect it. I have friends who play a lot of it, spend a lot of money with Magic cards. I can just see that being a whole rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:I just I avoid it, the only reason I don't own them is because the only time I see them is at Target and I'm not spending $70 for a Commander and Deckham doctor who I'm just not. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:They probably have them at card shops or whatnot.
Speaker 2:Well, I know, but that's the thing. It's like. I'll buy it from a comic book store but I'm not going to buy it from Target.
Speaker 1:I feel that Some interesting things about the Jesus from that DC universe. There was a vampire named Azarine that drank Christ's blood while he was on the cross.
Speaker 2:That fucking rules.
Speaker 1:That's pretty damn cool. That was in Doctor Fate number five. Fuck, yes, yeah yeah, pretty damn cool, that was in Dr.
Speaker 2:Fate number five Fuck, yes, yeah, yeah. Why are these not movies? I know so much better.
Speaker 1:There's the famous story of Swamp Thing, volume two, number 88. That is the unpublished Rick Veitch story, Rick Veitch.
Speaker 2:however you say his name, it's Veitch. I'm pretty sure Veitch.
Speaker 1:We'll see. It's none of the above.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in this story it probably featured Jesus, referred to in the story only as the magician or the Nazarene, and the story had Etrigan, the demon directly responsible for the crucifixion, which has cosmic significance on par with crisis on infant Earths.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would have been awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's a lot of guilt for Jason Blood man. Whoa, hey, whoa, you never mentioned this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the issue was never published because DC backtracked on the controversial imagery and published a replacement by Doug Wheeler instead. Pussies, yeah, that's how that goes. One kind of interesting thing they did so in an Azrael you know book that nobody read. I didn't read this, but I did look into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're referring to Azrael, who used to be Batman for a second.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, the guy who was Batman, jean-paul Jean-Baptiste.
Speaker 2:Jean-Paul Vallee. Jean-paul Vall Valley. Yeah, who's part of like a super strict religious cult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it kind of like he kind of came across as like a I don't know like a knight Templar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, he thought himself that yeah.
Speaker 1:He had a. I think his claim to fame, especially early on, was he had a flaming sword.
Speaker 2:Oh, when he was Asriel. Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I mean you know as a kid due to the flaming sword. That's awesome, like how does that work?
Speaker 2:He became Batman and then he slowly changed the costume, including, like, these razor claws, and he beat the shit out of Bane and then started murdering people. And so that's when Bruce rehabbed himself and came back like quite literally pulled a Bruce Lee and rehabbed his broken back and then came back to defeat John Pau Valley, to reclaim the cowl. And then John Pau Valley like went into a spiral of mental illness and then settled into the Asriel persona with the same claws but also with a fucking flaming sword.
Speaker 1:Conceptually, that's all right, Actual story-wise. There just wasn't much meat on that bone no, not really, so it kind of fell off for me. But there is a story in the 2010s called the Killer of Saints Not the Saint of Killers, no, not the Saint of Killers. And this one's all about, I don't know, blah, blah, blah, you know, saints running out of order, purity and suit of sorrows and all the stuff I don't really give a shit about. But it tells the story of. One of the Vatican's best-kept secrets is that it scientifically disproves the resurrection of Jesus Christ through the Shroud of Turin.
Speaker 2:Well okay, I mean it's interesting because the Shroud of Turin has been disproven to be authentic. It came from like the 13th century. But Turin has been disproven to be authentic. It came from like the 13th century. But yeah, that is interesting, you and your naysaying, well, but that's kind of the point is they're going to scientifically disprove something that has been scientifically disproven.
Speaker 1:You're like, well, okay, Well, yes and no, because in that same story one of the guys, gris, privately tells Azrael that the Shroud's real secret, that its DNA sample will reveal the descendants of Jesus Christ. Ah okay, who the suit of sorrows was originally made for? Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:The real grail, as it were. Yeah, there's a great Antonio Banderas movie about this, called the Body. It's called the Body Body. Yeah, he's a priest from the Vatican body. Yeah, he's a priest from the Vatican. Supposedly in Jerusalem there is an archaeological discovery of the tomb of Jesus that actually has the corpse of Jesus in it, and he's come to verify or debunk at the same time, not knowing which, and then there's a whole debate on whether it is or isn't. But they keep getting attacked by underground sects of all religions who think that if this is true, then the entire world will collapse. So they're trying to kill them so that nothing ever gets out. It's actually not a bad movie.
Speaker 1:I see, oddly, that apparently it was in development hell for 15 years, with Universal intending to distribute and produce it with Liam Neeson as the star.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:In the end the product was dropped after Universal became nervous about the religious themes Interesting. So again pussed out, they did so. There's also the Jesus of the current time, like 2011 to present. It's kind of the new 52 and on Jesus, I'm glad that's a thing Slightly different His powers and abilities, divine Empowerment, which gives him healing and empathy. That's a power he has. He has super empathy. His abilities also are leadership and charisma. He's got a plus 12.
Speaker 2:All of those make sense, though, like empathy. Okay, yes, that's necessary.
Speaker 1:Leadership charisma yeah, Empathy's a power, not an ability, so he has like super empathy. Okay, good, Indeed Also trivia his birth is celebrated every year on Christmas. Have you heard about this? What?
Speaker 1:a coincidence, hey, hey, have you heard about this? I'd say maybe one of the most interesting things in the DC universe relating to Jesus is the story of the Phantom Stranger. Now, the Phantom Stranger has, unfortunately, a multitude, a plethora of possible origin stories. He is indeed an enigma. One of them is that he might have been Judas Iscariot. Okay, it is his divine retribution to then walk the earth as the Phantom Stranger for his transgressions against Christ.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, I think it would help if we could define what the Phantom Stranger's purpose is in the DC universe, because what does he do exactly, I mean? So it's not like Ghost Rider, where you kind of get it right off the bat right from DC's own database.
Speaker 1:The Phantom Stranger is a mysterious mystic who has walked the earth for centuries. That's it nailed it. I would think if I was to relate to someone who's never read the Phantom Stranger, he's kind of like a noir spirit, like the spirit eisner's, a spirit looking uh cloaked figure who has magic abilities, kind of like dr strange, and just kind of pops in and out to help with big spiritual magic stuffs from time to time.
Speaker 2:He's kind of similar to like a Marvel cosmic character who just like nobody knows he exists until he pops in to like make sure that nothing goes terribly wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean there's other stories that he was like a fallen angel or that he was a guy that Jesus knew and Jesus didn't stop Cart from running over a child. Then he came along and when Jesus was being whipped he paid Roman soldiers to then whip him and then was cosmically taken after death to become the Phantom Stranger. After that there's a lot of different stories over the years of the origin and purpose of the Phantom Stranger, and possibly he was Judas Iscariot.
Speaker 2:Oh, like it's Dracula, 2000?.
Speaker 1:Yes, very much like that. Yeah, but like you know he's Judas, you know he portrays Jesus.
Speaker 2:if you haven't heard the story, yeah, let's recap the Bible right now.
Speaker 1:Then Afwell. One part that's not in the Bible is after Judas kills himself. He has to go in front of the Council of Wizards.
Speaker 2:Are you talking about the actual, like Shazam Wizards?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, he goes to the Council of Wizards. Yeah, the Wizard, shazam, solomon, pandora's there, the Mighty Adam, the, the Presence which is kind of like God, big G God.
Speaker 2:But kind of. It's kind of like some of those Marvel Celestial characters where it's kind of Difficult to explain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the difference between having gods and the god. That's why they just put it as the present, so they can kind of get away with that kind of thing. Yeah, that's true, he kind of has the god powers and he's kind of not. They don't have to name him. Uh, that's the thing they do a lot in sandman and lucifer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have the presence which stands in for that, and they reference it just like it would be god, but they don't actually come out and say it, even though he has heaven and a flock of angels and et cetera, et cetera. Again, they don't ever want to like push that button too much because they're afraid of a backlash. But there's one thing that Marvel did fairly recently that had a little bit of a backlash Maybe not as much as one might expect, but I just don't know if people took it to heart as much. So in the immortal x-men number one, which was from 2022 yeah, 2022, so again recent they're really coming down from a very extreme high point in x-men storytelling as of late, they had their own island. They were able to resurrect other mutants.
Speaker 2:Is this where Cyclops kills Magneto?
Speaker 1:No. Current X-Men has been really interesting. Once Hickman kind of restarted, it laid out a bunch of interesting storylines, cool ideas. I would highly recommend House of X, powers of X, hox, pox, as we call it in the biz. Go check it out and all of the stuff, almost everything flowing out of that, like the past I don't know, maybe four years has been mostly really cool and well done. There's a switch. Very good, yeah, I mean you only get good X-Men stuff. What I say like once every decade or so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's probably true this has been the primo x-men stuff again. I am a hickman apologist. I love everything he does, oh yeah. So I think even people who aren't as uh hickman dick sucking as me will also like it. So have at it. But one thing they do in this is that they are discussing hope and Exodus. Exodus is kind of a he was a bad guy and in this current version all mutants are together, so bad guys and good guys are all on the same island, coexisting.
Speaker 2:Wasn't Exodus an acolyte? Exodus was an acolyte, yes.
Speaker 1:I think he was like a French nobleman, maybe for the Crusades, and then he realized he had mutant powers and kind of lived since then, et cetera, et cetera. But he's an extremely religious figure and he sees hope again, like the first mutant born after M-Day, which was when there were no more mutants she was the first one, scarlet. Witch and all that, she has special powers and he sees her as like the mutant messiah, and so he's always kind of like following her around like a puppy.
Speaker 2:Like we all are with Floretspew yeah.
Speaker 1:And they have a conversation. So I'll just read a little bit of this dialogue here. So they're walking around, they're talking on the island. Hope says please don't call me that. And he's like. Whatever you wish, he's like uh, I can hear that gap at the end of the sentence You're still calling me Messiah.
Speaker 1:Internally he says I'm a mutant of faith. I have that faith in you and you cannot prevent that. Your coming rekindled the fecundity of mutants. The Holy Spirit came upon you and she cuts him off. The phoenix, the burning space bird, came upon me. Yeah, there's no need to get religious. And then Exodus says the Nazarene mutant, inspired a church among the humans by raising a couple from the dead. I just watched you best that in the last five minutes. Wow, are they saying that Jesus is a mutant? They are implying heavily that Jesus was in fact a mutant. I don't know if they're implying. Now one can read into things, because Exodus didn't come around until the 1400s, I believe so he wasn't around during Jesus' time. The what? 1400s? I believe so. He wasn't around during Jesus's time. But there is a strong implication, explicit or implicit, that Jesus was in fact a mutant, which gave him these powers that are thought to be of God. Now, that is a recent interpretation of Jesus within the Marvel Universe. There have been others though.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because, like you would think if you were someone who believed in mutants. As holy Namor predates Jesus by a long shot, so does Apocalypse Exactly Like. Wouldn't you like worship them before? Or is that like the difference between Jews and Christians in the mutant faiths?
Speaker 1:The way I read into it is that he recognizes him as a mutant, but he doesn't recognize his divinity necessarily. Oh, so he's Muslim. You know, I think Exodus kind of sees more power in hope, and I mean he is distinctly Christianian before this, before like then putting right now he's just a cult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, 100 yeah, that's his whole deal, which is made for an interesting back and forth and facet to their relationship and the way he proselytizes how faith in hope and religion within mutantdom is kind of a hot spot. They mention it in multiple comics because part of the fact that there is resurrection puts them on a more godlier space and then they have to deal with what that resurrection means. That's something like there's a long story of what that means to Nightcrawler, being another one of like the more religious characters within mutandom.
Speaker 1:So they do touch upon this a lot and it's fascinating. Again, there's a lot of different aspects of society as a whole and within mutandom and how they interact with each other and what all of these changes mean for them. There's also the revelation that there are kind of a whole mutant under society from thousands of years ago that kind of got separated off and there's a lot.
Speaker 2:There's a lot going on. Was that also run by Callisto?
Speaker 1:or it's Apocalypse's wife and his kids? Okay, and you know the island of Krakoa, of course. Okay, and you know the island of Krakoa, of course. Okay, so there was one larger island, but they split into two Krakoa and Eric Araco.
Speaker 2:His name's. Eric, he's just a guy named Eric.
Speaker 1:It kind of like went in another space and so like that is in a different kind of dimension, that is, a separate plane of reality from the one that the Marvel Universe is on.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting, I don't remember that part of the Pacific Ocean. I'm very confused by that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this isn't even talking about them colonizing Mars, or Of course not. There's a lot of stuff that happens.
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 1:Within the story and again they completely redefine Moira McTaggart. They kind of go into the far future of the end of mutants and the rise of machines and what that means for the Terminator. I mean Terminator, times a million, I don't know. It's well worth your time and there's a lot of stuff going on, but there isn't as much about Jesus, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of stuff going on, but there isn't as much about Jesus, unfortunately. Well, that's interesting, because one of the biggest and most important X-Men arcs is. God Love man Kills, which deals with a hyper-Christian cult on an island that is William Stryker. So how does that fit into the whole? I mean, like, where does he rank among the religious?
Speaker 1:They don't deal with him. I don't think Stryker's alive anymore. I believe his children are.
Speaker 2:Well, if you ask Bryan Singer, he's all over the place.
Speaker 1:So they're like a multifaceted human resistance against what mutants do currently. There's like a scientific side, a somewhat somewhat religious side, a transhumanist side the warren ellis corner, which one does brandon, or uh, what is it?
Speaker 2:uh, braden creed belong to, oh, graydon creed, graydon creed there you go.
Speaker 1:Thank you yeah I I don't that's. That's all kind of like fallen by the wayside. Um, there's so many characters that I maybe he's popped up in X-Core or something.
Speaker 2:It would be kind of cool if he fought Wolverine's son. That would be pretty awesome. Dokken, the Christian band Dokken.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was just trying to yes, graydon Creed versus Dokken. Oh, I see, oh, you're Creed there, you go.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see, oh, you're Creed. There you go, come on.
Speaker 1:Come on, Sorry, I'm deep in my X brain right now and you're bringing other things. Connection's not being made.
Speaker 2:Oh no, look at me, I'm the Nathaniel Gray. They spring a Sonic-con over here.
Speaker 1:Bring a Saudi scone over here I'm just trying to like vaguely explain like half a decade's worth of X-Men stuff.
Speaker 2:We've all we, you know, you and I have many times expressed the idea that that's not.
Speaker 1:Oh no, Again, I'm just doing like this small little sliver of what the X-Men brings. I will not interrupt. Continue. Oh no, it's fine. I'm kind of like I just thought that was interesting A recent Christ in comics controversy, although it didn't really garner that much excitement. I didn't really see a whole lot of articles on pushback for that and not anymore. Yeah, but I mean there are consistent things like that that get people's hackles riled.
Speaker 2:So do you at all addressed fables perchance I do not, because again, that's vertigo right, I understand outside of that and it's its own.
Speaker 1:It was its own separate thing up until I think there have been kind of crossovers between fables and dc at this point.
Speaker 2:But well, but also, fables never addresses jesus. They go out of their way to not address jesus. But bill willingham has gone out of his way to say that jesus does exist in that universe. But there's a reason. They never said that in the books.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and again, I think they do that quite a bit. Even Vertigo does it. I think the same thing happens in Unwritten, if I remember right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, but it's like I forgot about that book. God, it's been forever since I read that book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one's completely fallen by the wayside. A really cool book. Yeah, it's a great book.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's in print anymore. I don't think I've thought about that book in 15 years or more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's too bad. So you know again, you don't get much jesus in marvel. He pops up very sporadically, but I'm talking like. Actually like interacting with the jesus christ happens. You know, less than a handful of times. One of the main times that I could find was in the 2002 Max volume of Howard the Duck.
Speaker 2:Okay, fine, if there's any time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where apparently, at the end of the thing, there's a heaven spawned super creature called Deuteronomy that merges with a talk show hosts and then jesus gets called in to help with it and he he's pretty angry and feels put upon by god. Then it feels like you just keep asking more of him. This is the book I I didn't read. It's a garth ennis yeah, that's garth ennis I figured it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because then he later on went on to do in I think it was Avatar Press. He did Wormwood, which deals with Christ and not the same way, but he also deals with that, of course, in Preacher, preacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a thing he comes back to.
Speaker 2:It isn't like a hang up. As much as he thinks it's fucking funny.
Speaker 1:Oh, as much as he thinks it's fucking funny. Oh yeah, he positioned himself to tell these stories but they're outside of continuity and they're their own thing and the publishers kind of let him play around and do his own thing. Christ's sandbox.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what we call heaven nowadays the Christ's sandbox.
Speaker 1:Come play.
Speaker 2:Come play with us, Danny.
Speaker 1:But they do have Jesus and you know the son of Yahweh, and blah, blah, blah. He does appear in Ghost Rider. Maybe there is a character called the Friend which looks a lot like Jesus and has some Jesus stuff, but they never say it's Jesus. Okay, yeah, there's a again editorial ixnayed that and appeared to make it ambiguous. Right, there are. The Magi who presented gifts to Jesus were in fact aliens who followed the Star of Bethlehem throughout the universe, as it appeared before important events. At least so says Marvel Comics Presents number 17. Cool, yeah, that's interesting. There's another couple things. Two immortal beings, the Sphinx and the first vampire, varney, apparently observed Jesus during the time when he was alive. What's up, jase? Yeah, it's like, hey, what's up, jay? Do you want to get some Pringles?
Speaker 2:They got some pork tenderloins down there. They got some pork tenderloins down there I got some dried fish and rice. I am craving a shrimp cocktail right now.
Speaker 1:Hey, First Vampire, throw another shrimp in the barbie.
Speaker 2:For me First Vampire was of course from Australia. It's Jim Varney Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but other than that you really just don't get a whole lot of Jesus. There is a bit in Miracle man where he creates a new biblical tale of Jesus, but that story is crazy and not part of the MCU or Marvel Universe or any of that. There's interesting stuff like Doctor Doom having splinters of the true cross in his armor just in case he'd run into Dracula.
Speaker 2:Just in case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's better safe than sorry. Yeah, well, I mean.
Speaker 2:I get that. You never know when you're going to run into a Dracula.
Speaker 1:You never know when Dracula's going to pop up. Just any Dracula.
Speaker 2:Draculas are walking around. I mean, it's a common place nowadays.
Speaker 1:And apparently Jesus is allegedly the only being more powerful among heaven's forces than the archangels Ruth and Esther, my favorite.
Speaker 2:Marvel characters Ruth and Esther. I know Shlemiel, shlemazel, haas and Paffer Incorporated.
Speaker 1:Hey, we've been around for thousands of years. What do you want to do in the 80s? I don't know. Let's work at a canning factory, not the 80s, that's the 70s, 70s, alright? Well, it wouldn't have been the 80s, right? I don't think so. Yeah, these were again Angels that Marvel made up In the Ghost Rider series that apparently are the most powerful angels Okay, I don't know. Marvel made up in the ghost rider series that apparently are the most powerful angels, okay, okay, I don't know. Again, that's something I came across in my jesus search. It's just like they're doing a golden girls sort of.
Speaker 1:I just love how, like you know, there's remiel and uh, belial and and Ruth, and then Esther and Sophia. And Rose, and there's Gladys Flo, barbie the angel.
Speaker 2:That's a horse of a different color.
Speaker 1:But yeah, other than that, the only other times Jesus pops up it's just in pictures of Jesus or flashbacks of Jesus. He just doesn't show up much. So him being a mutant, that's fascinating. At least they like actually put Jesus in Marvel continuity and do something interesting with him, if only in a one-off line. Sure, I'm giving them the smallest modicum of huh. That's something, that's a thing. Yeah, but that is your Jesus in comics. We hope you've enjoyed. Please do spread the word. If you are liking, come get us next pod, gentle listener, and until that time, skip what else should they do?
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