Dispatch Ajax! Podcast
A Geek Culture Podcast - Two life-long Geeks explain, critique and poke fun at the major pillars of Geek Culture for your listening pleasure.
Dispatch Ajax! Podcast
RIP Jim Shooter
The passing of Jim Shooter marks the end of a contentious yet undeniably influential chapter in comic book history. From teenage prodigy to Marvel's commanding editor-in-chief, Shooter's nine-year reign from 1978 to 1987 fundamentally transformed how superhero stories are told and sold.
Gentlemen, let's broaden, our minds.
Speaker 2:Are they in the proper approach pattern for today? Negative.
Speaker 1:All weapons Now Charge the lightning field Hot off the wire. We have a recent passing in the world of comic books Jim Shooter.
Speaker 2:We are dealing with the passing away of a controversial icon in Jimim shooter pew pew. It's a weird thing to, because usually when you do that you're like you're celebrating. I don't know, it's just well, I mean some people are celebrating, I mean uh celebrating his life.
Speaker 1:Sure, this doesn't need to be a secret war. We can.
Speaker 2:We can celebrate the life in legion you know jim shooter for people who don't know was the editor-in-chief for marvel for a good long while actually it was a good long while and I think he'd said a nine years from 78 it was like 78 to like
Speaker 2:86, yeah, 87 he was there for a minute and also during one of the most tumultuous epic marvel stories and story arcs that have ever been, not even tackling the dc stuff that you wrote, which actually was pretty awesome. He wrote, for instance, secret wars, which I don't know like you and I are probably like oh great, he wrote secret wars the most commercial tie-in bullshit of all time. This is during the era in which Marvel was just doing commercial tie-ins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but he was the guy that introduced crossover event miniseries, yep, beginning with Contest of Champions, which he did, and then Secret Wars, which has kind of become the go-to since. Yeah, is that good, it was reinvented. Well, is Spielberg and Lucas making Jaws and Star Wars? Is that good, reinvented large? Well, is spielberg and lucas making jaws and star wars. Is that good for cinema?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, that's a good debate too, because like they defined it in the modern sense but then also commodified it trademarked you, packaged, you, slapped under plastic lunchbox. That, that is those two guys. Is that good for movies?
Speaker 1:I don't I I mean they want, but I mean, would movies still be around?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, 100 movies would still be around, but I mean they it definitely would look the same.
Speaker 1:The same way, I don't know if you'd have the proliferation of multiplexes if you didn't have blockbuster culture. I mean that drove business. I mean it's driven business to the same with, you know, big crossover events and comic books. Yeah, I mean that that drove business. I mean it's driven business to this day, same with, you know, big crossover events and comic books. Yeah, I mean that is what brings people.
Speaker 2:Jaws was the first big summer blockbuster and then Star Wars was the big repeat viewing blockbuster, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was over in theaters over a year. Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2:My parents went to see it. My dad likes to say 77, 77 times my mother's like oh no, it was way more than that, because we went with friends, we did group dates and all that thing. She says it was over 120 in 1977 alone, but it created the culture we have now, where it's dying.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it's it's. It's like saying the internet is a bad thing. It's like has the internet is a bad thing? It's like has the internet led to a lot of awful things for humanity? Yes, 100%. But has it also offered a multitude of great things that could never been accomplished before?
Speaker 2:Also yes, that's a different debate and a different topic We've referenced Das Kapital more than we have so far, jim Shooter. But the reason we did so is because jim shooter yeah, you're right is the originator, the goddamn paterfamilias, of the big company crossover, the big event crossover, which is kind of important if you look at dc, for example and he did work at dc for a long time too we had talked about before, about how crisis on infinite earths is one of the most important company-wide multi-title event in comic book history, because it encompassed every title. It pared down the entire universe into one cohesive narrative, which was maybe the most epic undertaking of all time. Because back then, you know, you had old dc writers, writers writing Superman stories that they had written since the fucking 50s, and then new DC writers were writing different Superman stories that were kind of independent from that and were more modern and they were incongruous and they kind of clashed with each other constantly, and so you needed something to sort of pare it down. So that event led to the idea of because, quite frankly, it was extremely successful. It was like the us mobilizing for world war ii. Somehow we made this mess and it fucking worked and we nailed it, you know, and then for everything after that it was oh, that's our model now. Now we have to do this.
Speaker 2:Then you get marvel's secret wars, which was sort of based on that financial model but at the same time wasn't necessary for their continuity. Marvel didn't need that. They had their shifting 15-year Age of Heroes thing. Instead, they had been going on these ventures with Hasbro. They helped create GI Joe and Transformer in 83 and 84. And so they do Secret Wars Wars. But the entire premise is their same model from those other commercial tie-ins. Dc was like we got a clean house and figure our shit out. They were like no, we have to figure this out because none of it makes sense and nobody's going to read it anymore. Marvel was like hey, that worked for them, let's do our thing.
Speaker 2:They do secret wars where they had action figures and the action figures featured ash can comics. Sometimes it was kind of crazy. Those action figures were so fucking ubiquitous. I remember seeing those action figures in stores like 10 years later. I remember seeing like a kang the conqueror, secret wars action figure on the shelf like 10 years after it happened. I think they overreached but it was definitely successful. So that was Jim Shooter's idea and you're right, he had come from another previous or sort of cross company crossover before that. But I think before we had talked about the a couple of times, the DC Marvel crossovers, shooter wrote several of those Mm-hmm. He wrote the Superman-Spider-Man crossover.
Speaker 1:He did one of the Superman-Spider-Man ones.
Speaker 2:yeah, In 81. So I guess he was kind of primed for that right. He was the 2006 JJ Abrams of Marvel comic books, right.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if JJ was making films at age 13, but books, right. Well, I don't know if JJ was making films at age 13, but I mean Jim Shooter was writing and drawing stories that he sent to DC and then got picked up and was hired. That's true, he was hired at 14 years old. Yeah, I mean he created Karate Kid and Farrow Lad and Princess Projecta and a lot of Legion of Superhero stuff which are all great Along with great characters Parasite and he wrote A lot of Legion of Superheroes stuff which are all great Along with great characters. He wrote the first race between Superman and Flash. That's cool.
Speaker 2:He was a fanboy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as many of the best comic writers are. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2:Karate Kid.
Speaker 1:I don't know. This is a larger Legion thing, that.
Speaker 2:I. What year did Karate Kid come out as a character? Because it's either like a reference to the movie Karate Kid or it's a response to Shang-Chi, or, at the time, shang-chi Right, 1966. Oh, wow, so before that. Okay, way before, wow. So that's like right as Bruce Lee is coming to fame. That was actually ahead of the game.
Speaker 1:Shang-Chi, December 1973.
Speaker 2:Well after that was in the main. If he created karate kid in what? 66?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that would have been before bruce lee was big and that his movies didn't come out to the 70s.
Speaker 2:It's true karate wasn't even like in the cultural zeitgeist at that point no, I mean really, if you think about it, it might be you might have really one of the broken that open well, no, that can't, then he couldn't have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it says 66, so interesting, that is an interesting possible domino. But again, how many people one were reading adventure comics, number 346 or legion of superheroes, I don't know how much of that led to enough people. Enough to what?
Speaker 2:kept rising up the ranks and people enough people thought his stuff was great that he ascended from dc to marvel, where he eventually became editor in chief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he was very influential. He was one of the guys who insisted gene gray died during the dark phoenix saga. That was a big one. It's a big time. He also had a lot of a lot of negatives during his tenure.
Speaker 2:Oh, boy, did he? So I actually met Jim Shooter when I was a kid and I went to a panel at Kansas City Comic Con where he did a whole like treatise on his philosophy of comic books and some of it I was like you know what? I totally agree with you. But then some of the stuff that he started presenting was like basically, like artists are dirty, they were like second class citizens to him and I think that is his kind of enduring legacy.
Speaker 2:When we talk about how Jack Kirby got screwed, initially it was by Stan Lee. Of course we all kind of know that now Buscema and Kirby and Bill Finger and guys like that all got fucked. A lot of those guys got fucked by Stan Lee, not Jim Lee. It was continued. The abuse and treatment was continued by Jim Shooter and even in the little talk that I watched him do, he thought that they were lazy and didn't pull their weight and some people could be like, oh well, you know, that's justified, they didn't pull their weight and some people could be like, oh well, you know, that's justified, they didn't put in so much effort or whatever. Also, if you're going by the Marvel method, you gave them nothing and then they have to come up with everything, and then they get paid minimum wage and if you don't like it, they're just going to outsource it to Mexico. What good are the things that he writes if those artists don't prop him up right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it wasn't the only people he was contemptuous to. I mean he was the biggest proponent of the no-gays in the Marvel Universe policy.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right. Northstar must have driven him fucking crazy, Well he wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1:It forced John Byrne to conceal Northstar's sexuality initially. Oh wow.
Speaker 2:You know what? I do not blame John Byrne, because John Byrne also is an asshole, but not that kind of asshole.
Speaker 1:He's just a guy that's hard to work with, or whatever, and not in a frank.
Speaker 2:More of a dick, less than an asshole.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, exactly yes, but like you know, he's just one of those guys that's kind of a diva shooter left marvel and he went on to help create different independent companies like valiant, defiant and broadway comics that's funny because, like when I went to see the panel I'm talking about, I went to go see jim shooter.
Speaker 2:It was about his launch of defiant, which everybody remembers to this day. They have fond memories of warriors of plasm yes, I'm more of a charlemagne fan myself yeah, I dare anyone out there to name more than two titles from defiant comics and if you know them good on you.
Speaker 1:If you know them, it's because you've been, you've had to dig through back issues for years and you've had, to like, shuffle through dark dominion.
Speaker 2:Or you're just really helplessly antisocial and have nothing else, because you and I are enormous comic book geeks and have a vast wealth of knowledge off the dough, and if both works in comic book stores and still were like defiant, who gives a shit? I don't remember that and I own some defiant. I own warriors of plasm, issue one or whatever it was during that defiant era to use a pun, I guess where you know what. That's kind of ironic, though, because that entire era of third-party comic book companies finally coming into the mainstream image dark horse, shadow line things like that jim shooter was one of the reasons those guys left, and then, when he was fired, he decided to just join the fray and do the same thing. Like how ironic.
Speaker 2:I mean, he was one of those guys. That was like if an artist creates a character or property or idea, even it's owned by marvel period you don't see a dime from that, no matter how popular it gets, which is why jim lee, todd mcfarland, mark sylvestri, you know, eric larson all those guys left to create image so that it was creator owned, and then, when jim shooter gets fired, he goes and tries to do the same thing. Do you not understand what's happening here. Read the room, dude.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a reason he didn't say it valiant, very long, yeah, but he did start it.
Speaker 2:So there is that well, valiant was an interesting thing because their whole thing was old properties from gold key that had sort of lapsed.
Speaker 1:Bought them up uh, they bought those licenses and they used that as a foundation.
Speaker 2:Jim, sure, I'm sure, was a reader of those back when he was a kid. My dad did. I love gold key comics, they did star trek comics, they did magnus robot fighter and dr solar, and that's where you get to rock dinosaur hunter, which an enormous generation of people didn't even know was a comic book. They just thought it was a video game for the PS1 or whatever. And then, yeah, all Valiant did was just take up these old properties.
Speaker 1:Did you know that Valiant became a thing?
Speaker 2:because in 1988, Jim Shooter and Stephen J Masarkey oh, I was hoping you were going to say Cannell.
Speaker 1:And a group of investors attempted to buy Marvel. Oh, they submitted the second highest bid, so they didn't get it. So instead they formed a venture capital financing triumph capital and created Valiant instead.
Speaker 2:Is it still an imprint now I know?
Speaker 1:it was a few years ago. It got sold. I believe it's still Valiant. It's now part of Acclaim Entertainment. No, then acclaim went bankrupt and were purchased as part of valiant entertainment by entrepreneurs dinesh samad sani and jason kathari in 2005. In 2011, valiant received capital infusion from private investment company cuneo and company and a relaunch was announced. Blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. It was then sold to DMG Entertainment in 2018. And in 2023, valiant Comics announced a licensing partnership with Alien Books, which took over publishing Valiant characters. It's a whole line thing. I mean, obviously, money failure, money failure, money failure, money failure.
Speaker 2:That's the tech sector right now. Please tell me Scott Rosenberg wasn't involved in any point, right?
Speaker 1:Not that I initially see, but I can't be sure.
Speaker 2:You know, rosenberg was in there somewhere Rosenberg-ing it up. They were at least still salient, because Vin Diesel did that Deadshot movie.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, the comics are still coming out.
Speaker 2:It's Shane's hands a lot, A million times yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was never a Goliath.
Speaker 1:Anyway about Jim Shooter right.
Speaker 2:It's shocking that it still exists, mm-hmm, somehow it's still going.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's better than his other stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, def still going. I mean it's better than his other stuff. Yeah, defiant disappeared so fucking fast, even more than like what's. It's the one that marvel bought malibu. Speaking of rosenberg, somehow it stayed ninjack and all um.
Speaker 2:I think valiant kind of worked because it did have some good talent behind it. I think shooter did know how to recruit talent. He had bart sears, he had joe casada, he had barry wintersmith barry wintersmith exact real talent guys, same way that you know. I think he was kind of following the image template and that kind of like gave him enough cachet to keep that going. I mean, technically, valiant was before image. Yeah, that was shooters. Fuck you to marvel.
Speaker 2:I guess the thing that sticks out to me about makes this kind of tragic and sad and also, yeah, could have told you so is the idea that shooter got fired for being an asshole, left defiantly and then created valiant as a protested like his. He believed in his approach and Marvel decided they went in a different direction and then, immediately after that, the Image Comics guys like left Marvel for the exact reason the gym shooter. That was his philosophy, the Marvel method, and yet both still function today. All three still function today. Yeah, it's a weird, bizarre look at how the industry somehow survives despite all of these different philosophical offshoots, and almost all of it is because of Jim Shooter. When I saw him speak, I do agree with him he was the first person that ever said out loud to me there are only seven stories. It blew my mind, but I was like God, you're right, that's true. It's like what is the perfect Jake? What do you think is the perfect movie?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, scooby-doo.
Speaker 2:The one with Matthew Lillard specifically. Is that the one?
Speaker 1:I don't know the perfect.
Speaker 2:What is the most impeccable narrative In our storytelling? I'm not talking about French New Wave or Italian neorealism or anything. I'm talking about American cinema. What is the most impeccable story ever put out? We've talked about it on the show before man.
Speaker 1:now there's pressure.
Speaker 2:It's Rocky.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Rocky. Oh, it's the hero's journey in a tight, compact way that ends in the underdog wins. It's the ultimate American story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the quintessential American tale.
Speaker 2:It really is and look back at our Rocky episodes for figuring out how complex and weird that is. We did five episodes of that shit.
Speaker 1:Sorry when you say like what is like the American fictional tale. It's like I mean, are we F Scott Fitzgerald? Are we talking Mark Twain? Are we talking Orson Welles? Are we, you know?
Speaker 2:No, those are actually.
Speaker 2:There's a lot going through my head, so I mean those are great candidates, citizen Kane no, those are actually. There's a lot, there's a lot going through my head so obviously that's a great candidate, citizen kane. Great gatsby is in there too. Uh, ne'er-do-well rich asshole gets away with murder, essentially, yeah, okay, yeah, that sounds like an american tale, for sure. An american oligarch dies and then wishes that he had more substance to him. Yeah, that sounds like a great american tale. But rocky is the, I think, ultimate and and that's what jim shooter was talking about the only seven stories and the three-act structure he talked about. You can't get more of a perfect, crowd-pleasing american story than rocky. And that was sort of his approach to comic books. That made a lot of sense to me and it made a lot of sense. It kind of like informed the way I watched movies and stories and then also critiqued movies and stories. You know it's also kind of a limited view on it, but it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this isn't something other people haven't said. Oh no, a million people. This is jim shooter saying it to you anecdotally and as a young child, kind of really formative in your thought process he might have just been stealing from roger ebert, I don't fucking know.
Speaker 2:But you know what jim shooter did write a lot of good comics, so it didn't come from nothing. I think he just wanted to make the circuit to make money, since he had gotten fired from his high-paying job at marvel. Yeah, so I guess I guess the conclusion is that jim shooter complicated person, rebel, well, establishment, well, no, okay worked his way up from nothing at the age of fucking 14, was considered a sort of a rebellious, sort of non-conventional writer, then worked his way into marvel editor-in-chief and then I think the industry outgrew his view on things and his methods and he found himself outside the box all of a sudden. And yet when he reinvented himself, it worked somehow, but then also found himself outside the box on that one, and then when he reinvented himself for a third time, it fell flat like a lead balloon.
Speaker 1:So would you agree that he's like not villain nor hero, he's just kind of a sad character, or not sad, but like a complex character he's a complicated fixture in the history of american comics, but he's had a long lasting, wide-ranging impact that can still be felt to this day, both for positive and negative doesn't it sound like the perfect succedent to stanley?
Speaker 2:in that sense, yeah, and in a lot of ways yeah like in a literal way, but also in metaphorically and culturally deal to it.
Speaker 1:Stanley's next step does the industry always need a stanley to be lording over it in some way?
Speaker 2:uh, but his influence while great and I think jim shooter kind of has the same thing he just wasn't as famous as stanley. Jim shooter didn't know how to market himself like stanley did.
Speaker 1:Stanley knew how to make. It's also different time. Yeah, it's true, you know, I mean one guy who's on the ground floor of the true revolution of comic books. I mean the first great one, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that really put them on the map, the real one, that made it really into pop culture was yes, yeah, which he grew up on, and then when shooter, you know, got fired, comic books had a comeback. I don't think those are related, but I think he was a perfect stanley secedent in a time of decline. He was like the herbert hoover of comic books, but also the industry was dying. So what a complicated legacy. Very, very strange indeed. And also he just kind of looks like robert dobby.
Speaker 2:I kind of want to think of him as a villain all the time there's a lot of dobby there I can see him like in a helicopter talking about how he shot people with vno just saying I was nine assholes he used to have a ponytail too, by the by the way.
Speaker 1:Well, it was the time.
Speaker 2:It was the 90s when Steven Seagal somehow was cool, it's a different time.
Speaker 1:Well to Jim Shooter. For all the good, the bad, you made your presence felt in history. Take some shooters, everybody.
Speaker 2:For people that call them shooters instead of shots. I'm talking to you, canada.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's your problem, canada? Why are you doing that? What is your problem Just in general? Yeah, cut it out. Canada, get your shit sorted, alright. Eh, please go away.