Spiritual Self-reflection with Jackie and Lane

The fall season has arrived, so grab your favorite cozy beverage and catch up with Lane and Jackie. This week, we’re sharing a conversation that responds some big spiritual questions. Lane and Jackie ponder the role of religion in their lives, the relevance of religion as the world evolves, and beliefs about the concept of fate. 

Follow The Outerknown on Instagram and Threads at @outerknownpod or visit us on the web at outerknownpod.com.

Transcript

Jackie 0:08

Welcome to the Outer Known, a podcast that shines a light on the outer edges of inner knowing.

Lane 0:29

It's fall - can you believe it? Truly, like every time I look out the window, I'm just thinking a lot about, you know, the summer and how it went this year, what all the decisions I've made in my life this year already. It's been an eventful year for me and I keep thinking about I don't remember who said this, but the saying that there are some years that ask questions and some years that answer, and I feel like this has been a little bit of a mix of both.

Jackie 0:55

Yeah, I think about that statement a lot, and I think this year has been a lot of answering questions for me really sort of interesting and, in a lot of ways, unsettling ways. Lane: Tell us more.

Jackie 1:10

I think there's just been a weird energy hanging over me this year because a lot of work stuff is in a weird place and I think just in life I'm in a weird place and I think as I'm getting further into my 40s, things are becoming in a lot of ways less clear and so therein sort of feels like a little bit of struggle.

Lane 1:32

I relate to that for sure. I've been through some big transitions this year. I quit two jobs this year.

Jackie 1:41

Loud quitting.

Lane 1:42

Yes, loud quitting, and I'm in a space of purposefully asking a lot of questions now and just trying to be open and allow myself to be a little bit bored, and it's challenging.

Jackie 1:57

Yeah, I definitely struggle with boredom. I struggle with, I think, like a lot of us, the sort of capitalist urge to constantly be doing something, and I've been really. I think part of my sort of line of inquiry for myself is like, yeah, how do I figure out some stillness? Because I think some of those answers come from that and that's kind of been really challenging for me.

Lane 2:26

Re latable. Well, we have a few questions that we prep today to kind of explore together, which I'm really excited about. So first up is: What role does spirituality play in your life?

Jackie 2:39

That's a good question.

Jackie 2:40

It's an evolving one, I think.

Jackie 2:43

As somebody who went to religious schools my literally my entire education I think it's something I just sort of took for granted that I went through the ritual of it and I just took it for granted that it's something I was supposed to do, without really questioning why or what it was doing.

Jackie 3:01

But I think of late it's really given me an opportunity to just sort of see the world differently, and not so much as a given but something that I can kind of lean on a little bit to sort of give me different kinds of answers. Not answer but maybe nudge some things that maybe I already knew. You know, sometimes you have those experiences where you know the answer and you know intuitively what's up, but you just need someone or something else to state it plainly for you to be like oh okay, that's, that's it. I've kind of been having a lot of those experiences lately where, either through tarot or through kind of other things, I've been putting things out and getting the answers back-- less answers, more confirmations of things that I already knew. So that's sort of been an interesting, an interesting thing that's been, I think, trending recently in my relationship to spirituality and the sort of universe of things unknown.

Lane 4:01

Yeah, what you're saying there for me is also important. I think before I came to Witchcraft and before I began doing this podcast with you, I had a lot of experiences that I had just dismissed, and getting that information and, in some ways, validation of like, oh, there are people who experience these kinds of things and they are subtle and they are subjective and a little different for everyone, but they are spiritual in nature and it's not, you know, just me being a unfortunately this is like some internalized misogyny right here but, like you know, a flaky woo woo girl. I think there was a lot of that that I held on to before my own kind of like journey in my 30s and yeah, really, really to that.

Jackie 4:53

Yeah, it feels good because I think I think I'm the kind of person who I think partially this is sort of Pisces energy for me, but like I tend to be someone who's very in her head about things and so this has allowed me to sort of be like, hey, out there, like am I just making this up or is this really a thing? And you know, maybe the responses don't always look like I expect them to, but it's like okay, yeah, that's a thing. Or oh, okay, cool, no, I was just making that up, or maybe being led in the wrong direction. So it's been sort of a nice check to my own-- insecurities is a too strong a word-- but like you know my own kind of doubts or my own questioning of what's what's what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, kind of what's going on energetically.

Lane 5:42

Yeah, I think for me, even in the very structured studies that I do, I'm always approaching it without certainty, with a sense of skepticism or questioning, because I think I'm just kind of seeking and like looking for you know what I think and feel and into it.

Lane 6:01

And so I recently completed, in August, my fourth year of Mystery School Studies of the Temple of Witchcraft. Jackie: Woo, congratulations! LANE: Thanks.

Lane 6:11

This year I felt so much more emotional and a little bit at sea after completing it and that really struck me because at the start of this year I was like, oh, this is all really cool, but it's like very heady material, it's all you know. It was all around the cabala and ceremonial magic and it wasn't necessarily something that I fully resonated with in terms of what I think my everyday practice will overall kind of evolve into. But at the same time there was a lot of inherent value and and like really interesting mystery and and it did really sit with me in this like way that I felt made me grow and I don't know, I think after that year I'm just kind of looking ahead and maybe it's just where I am in life. As you know, we were saying as well on this transition period, but it feels like a transition in my spiritual practice too, and the more that I learn, the more I want to know, the more I want to explore, and I can't stop buying occult books. It's kind of a problem.

Lane 7:14

Jackie: I can't stop buying books in general, which is a problem. Lane: Fair but you know, I think this winter for me will be kind of a. I think I'm just kind of feeling this like I want to kind of go back and with what I know now, almost like redesign my, my rituals and the ways that I think about things, and then, I don't know, wanting to make it my own a little bit more, based on what I've learned.

Jackie 7:38

Yeah, that's a really neat kind of way to reflect, I think, also on how far you've come and what things are still resonating and valuable for you versus what things don't speak to you anymore, and build a practice around that, which I always think is pretty cool.

Lane 7:53

Yeah, and for me, I think I've never been good at routine. I don't know what it is about me, maybe it's a Pisces thing, but I've always really liked every day to be a little bit different, you know, or it's just kind of flow with how I'm feeling or what the day is and what I have planned. But I do want to develop a little bit more of a daily practice, something I can do a little bit more consistently, even if it's for just set periods, you know, like 30 days or something, and just kind of explore that a little for myself and see how it feels. We'll see how I develop that.

Jackie 8:26

Yeah, I think my sort of task for myself, I think, is to figure out what my blocks are around that, because I struggle a lot with consistency and I have tried lots of different things. It's like, ok, I'm going to do this thing every day and, like you know, I might be able to commit to it for like a week or two and then something happens and then I get distracted and then I never go back to it. So I think that's my, my task this fall is to figure that out for myself.

Lane 8:55

Look at us. Yeah trying routine.

Jackie 9:00

Definitely so, speaking of not being in routines and sort of letting things happen as they may, do you believe in fate?

Lane 9:09

I really love this question. It's so juicy because I think through my life it's really changed. When I was young, growing up, I always really deeply believed in fate and it kind of took a difficult emotional situation and kind of a spiritual awakening, starting in my 20s, moving into my 30s, to kind of like I don't know, I just flipped it on its head and I no longer did. And then now, the more I've studied astrology, the longer we've done this podcast and the more people from all different backgrounds that we've talked to, I think I believe in, or starting to believe in, and I wouldn't say I feel certain and I don't think I ever necessarily will of anything.

Lane 9:50

However, it's like a different version of fate, this concept that we keep coming across of our souls agreeing to incarnate on this earth in this physical plane. That's the first Sephora and Kabbalah, as well as called Malkut. It's all about the physical plane. It's the bottom of the tree and it's that experiential physical thing and it leads up into the others and I just find that interesting and I've just been ruminating on it for a while now and I really think that it's like okay, there's a degree to which some people believe our souls even agree to the time and place and way that they will pass on and that kind of stuff and.

Lane 10:30

I don't know what I think about that, but I do feel if I'm to believe in an incarnation of sorts, then we choose how we will develop in this lifetime. I don't know to what specifics, and so I think that's maybe the version of fate that I have started to believe in. How about you?

Jackie 10:48

I really appreciate that perspective. That's certainly a much deeper level than the way I've ever thought about it and wow, that's given me actually something to think about. But for myself, I would say I've always believed in fate, but maybe, yeah, again, not necessarily, maybe slightly in the more kind of traditional interpretation of it. But I was actually thinking about this the other day and I've always felt just energetically that and maybe I'm kind of conflating two different things, but I've always felt that I've been this is going to sound silly, but I always had this sort of like charmed life, if you will that I feel like I've been very lucky that I've been. I've had resources most of my life. I've grown up mostly middle class, I've had access to food and education and you know sort of those basic things. But you know, when I think about sort of certain moments throughout my life, there's always I've always had a feeling that there's been some intervention on my behalf in a way that either has prevented me from something bad or catastrophic happening or, you know, door has been opened, the if you think about a railroad track, you know the train is diverted to a different track in the nick of time, like that kind of thing I've always had a sense of.

Jackie 12:09

But I think as I've gotten older I've definitely seen things kind of show up on my doorstep but it's still on me to kind of follow through it's.

Jackie 12:19

It's more of an active kind of participation where you know the the sort of terrible cliche of, y ou know, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The horse has to make that decision. And so I'm now feeling more like a horse these days where you know I can sort of the thing can be brought to me or I can be brought to the thing, but it's still ultimately my decision to act on it or to do with what I will, the information that I'm given. So I definitely still believe it's. It plays a very active role in my life. But I think the more conscious I become about things beyond me and those you know obviously not knowing all of the answers I never will but just being more aware of that has certainly led me to be a more active participant. You know I always think about the sort of fate versus free will debate, which I don't think is a debate at all. It's. It's for me it's always been at both end.

Jackie 13:13

But I feel like, definitely more like on the active free will side when fate shows up at my door. I'm conscious that I have a choice to make and I'm also just being more conscious about what the outcomes of those choices could be, and maybe not beating myself up as much if I make the wrong choice, or even you know the idea that there really aren't wrong choices. There are, some choices are better than others, and it's just what kind of outcome do I want?

Lane 13:42

Yes, I so agree with that. Like I used to struggle with decisions on almost like a deathly scale, where it was like I had this deep fear that I would just end up in a gutter somewhere if I made the wrong choice. Like it was just, you know, almost life or death, and it really paralyzed me for a lot of my life. And it's something that I, you know, have consciously become better at through a lot of therapy. But I think, for me, what I have realized is, you know, it's important to have your sense of what matters to you, not just in an earthly way, but in a sort of like soul journey or almost like values sort of way. Like what do you want to experience in this lifetime, in this short time that we have? And I think back to even the decision to adopt rabbit, my dog.

Lane 14:29

I was making all these excuses not to do it, like, oh, like I might end up traveling again and you know, then I'll have to, like pay to board her and blah, blah, blah.

Lane 14:37

And like I'm in a small apartment and blah, blah, blah, like there's all these reasons not to do it right, and then I realized that the reason to do it, all of them, were much bigger. You know. They were having more love and joy and giving an animal a home, things that meant so much more to me than like worrying about who was going to take care of everyone I was gone Right. That's all stuff you figure out, and when you realize that you can tip the scales and I've had to practice that so much but I'm right there with you. Like you know, quitting quitting my first job and then my second job, or again those were really values based and I feel like it ultimately I could look back and regret it was the wrong decision to take that other job. I should have just figured out a different path. But I think I needed that experience to tell me I was done, and so I'm not going to regret it For sure.

Jackie 15:24

I think that sometimes we think, oh my God, I maybe should not have gone in this direction. But I think, like you said, and I've experienced this too, where it's like I needed that thing, even if it was not ideal to teach me this. Nope, you were, you were right and that you went this direction. But I'm glad now this experience has shown me like, absolutely without question, my gut is guiding me the right way.

Lane 15:52

Yeah, and it comes down to as well like the more I study astrology. Going back to the interview we had with Adam Ellen Boss, who then was known as Acyuta bhava Das, you go back to that episode. We talk about the question of fate, and free will highly recommend that discussion. He's brilliant, but I've just come to think of astrology as like almost a cosmic clock or cosmic weather.

Lane 16:13

It just, you know, I don't believe that the planets like rule us in that way, but I do believe like there is some correlation and it's just total all for me of like seeing it in action over and over how it plays out, almost sometimes to like an annoyingly on the nose degree, and I feel like that is also a piece of my spiritual practice of like just watching that play out and seeing what I learned from that and how I can reflect on how these things tie together.

Jackie 16:46

Yeah, I would certainly say my powers of observation are heightening. I've always been an observant person but kind of having this other layer of the world or this other lens to see things through has been very interesting in terms of exercising and flexing that muscle, which has been really cool to witness.

Religion's Role, Power of Questioning

Lane 17:06

Yes, I love that, While we came across this question and we both loved it it's just such an interesting one. Will religion ever become obsolete?

Jackie 17:15

This is, weirdly, something I think a lot about as, again, somebody who was raised and educated in the Catholic faith. I think it depends on how you define religion. I don't know that organized religion as we know it will ever become obsolete per se, but I do think that it is a fundamental part of our nature as human beings to think about, observe, question whether or not there is an existence of something beyond ourselves, whatever name you want to put to that, whether that is a singular, god, multiple deities, whether it is extraterrestrials, star people, as they are often called.

Jackie 18:00

I think that that is just a fundamental part of our nature as human beings, because we have an earth and there is a physical manifestation of existence that we can know. But there's so much about the world and the universe that we don't know. I think to question that is just an inherent part of who we are. I think that for some people, organized religion serves as a structure through which they can start to maybe answer some of those questions. I think that's appealing to a lot of people. I think it's becoming less appealing in its organized religions, current incarnations.

Jackie 18:37

I think obsolescence will depend on whether or not those structures can adjust and adapt and essentially accept that human thought is evolving, human relationships are evolving, humans as terrestrial beings are evolving. I think if structured kinds of religions can embrace that rather than run away from it or denounce it or deny it, I think that will work to their benefit. But I think, yeah, religion in a looser term, I think, will never be obsolete, just simply because it's a human structure and human beings are just. We have an inherent curiosity and a questioning and so long as we have that trait, I think religion in its various shapes and forms, I think, will always exist.

Lane 19:30

Yeah, I'm on the same side as you have this debate. I think obsolete is just taking a little too far. I think they might evolve, but I think ultimately and it's sort of the very subtext of this podcast that there is just so much that is unseen even in our physical world, and just the fact that there's atoms around us all the time doing their thing. I think that, to some degree, all religions whether you consider it a god, whether you consider it a divine mind, a hermetic philosophy or witchcraft there's so many ways to look at it but ultimately, we're all trying to understand the order of things, why things are the way they are, how they work and I think science is exploring that too and whether you believe in any of those things. Ultimately, it's a questioning and a seeking of an answer, whether or not you can ever be certain of that answer. I think that's why they call it faith, right. I think there will always be some questioning, some seeking some faith, exactly.

Jackie 20:31

Yeah, it's interesting reading some of the I read a couple of months ago I think it's probably the New York Times, but some news outlets is always tracking things like what faith people ascribe to and tracking the numbers over time and the numbers bear it out that most organized faiths are losing people. And I think again, religion is just like anything else. Unless you can adapt or change or flow with who your congregations are and who they are becoming, people are going to find something else. So I'm curious to see how those numbers continue to ebb and flow. I think the tenor of our times is also a testament to. I think my guess is that a lot of people turn to various spiritualities and religions. During the pandemic, when hard things and challenging things happen, I think people tend to look outside of our what tools and resources that exist to find something else to help explain things. But I think as we move into a lot more crises as humans, I'm curious to see where people will turn to for answers or explanations or inspiration. I agree.

Lane 21:50

Yeah, I've definitely noticed there's a flow into witchcraft and nature-based religion, at least in my sphere, and I think it's really interesting. On one hand, our generation and younger have been through so many just unprecedented events and we're watching our planet burn. Of course there's going to be some attraction to something that gives you a little bit more of a sense of personal empowerment and that aligns with nature.

Lane 22:20

I think that you know, from my perspective it makes a lot of sense. But that's not to say that other religions can't offer that. But I do feel, coming from a Christian background, I felt a little bit more boxed in in a lot of ways and that it was all up to God and it wasn't so much up to me. You know, I just had to be a good girl, right?

Jackie 22:41

Yeah, I think the personal empowerment part is really key, because I do think and I think at least this was my own experience that was like if you do all these things, you are totally good in God's eyes. God has got you. Just follow these rules and you'll be cool, life will go great for you. And you know it's like okay, but I'm following the rules. I'm like there's a couple of shitty things that happened to me. So like, bro, what was that? Where were you, you know? And no one had an answer and it was like okay, well, I think we're done here.

Jackie 23:11

And then, which isn't to say that there aren't like principles or ideas from Catholicism that I don't. I didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are certainly things that I still carry with me and then things that I feel that are very valid. But I think, yeah, that sort of idea that, like you as a human being, it's this weird dichotomy between quote like you have free will, you can still make your choices, and then this idea that like, okay, god's still controlling everything. So it's like which is it? Pick a struggle? And I think that that many other forms of spirituality offer that kind of like yes, you can, like you are actually in control of a lot of things, if not all things, depending on what flavor appeals to you. But yeah, I can certainly see that as being kind of a sort of key attraction to different kinds of spiritual practices.

Jackie 23:58

I think particularly for people who identify as queer. You know folks that have been historically maligned by Christianity, especially your Judeo-Christian faiths. I can definitely see that being appealing as well. Absolutely yeah.

Lane 24:14

Well, let's move along to our last one. Do you ask enough questions or do you settle for what you know?

Jackie 24:21

I really love this question because it's a reminder to me that, as a highly intuitive being, I don't lean on my intuition enough. That's the one part, right, but then there's also the historian side of me, who just is a total research rabbit hole nerd, that I am constantly looking for information, and I think my personal struggle is finding the balance. Finding the balance of figuring out what are the right questions to ask and then relying on my own intuitive knowledge about myself and my experiences.

Lane 25:00

Yeah, I think it's funny. I have to look at this question from different facets of life. I think in my every day, as both a coach and interview-based podcaster, I ask a lot of questions.

Lane 25:14

However however, I think, even in this period of transition that I've been in, I think this question is really helpful for me, in that I know that I have a few things that I want to develop and potentially have some offerings more coaching offerings, more astrology offerings and kind of moving into that but I'm also, at the same time, might not be asking you enough questions there of what else there could be. I've started to become sort of attracted to herbalism a little bit more and, particularly as it relates to planetary correspondences and that sort of thing, starting to think a lot about that and how I might incorporate it somehow. Yeah, there's a lot of questions I could be asking there, so I don't know, it's a good guiding question.

Jackie 25:59

Mm-hmm.

Jackie 25:59

Yeah, and that's sort of the whole point of this podcast is to ask people questions about things that we want to know more about, don't know enough about.

Jackie 26:10

But this is also part of what I alluded to before, which is I have this tendency to be in my head and sometimes I need to ask those questions to make sure that I'm staying grounded and that I'm not I'm not just seeing things entirely through my own experience, and I sometimes need to ask those questions to get confirmation or just to get more information to either confirm or deny, or what have you about my own perception of my experience. So sometimes that's a really important way for me to kind of get out of myself a little bit. But I think, yeah, finding that balance for me of like when do I not need to search the internet for something I already know? And like why is that kind of my weird tendency? And like I think it's just part of it is that my intuitive muscles are underdeveloped, and I think it's part of that is an extension of figuring out how to get that muscle in better shape, and we'll see what happens.

Lane 27:16

That's really interesting, that idea of like how much can you trust what you know?

Jackie 27:20

Mmm hmm. I mean I can say that I've ever that intuition has ever really led me astray, but I think there's so much of our experience living in the United States at this particular point in time, under these various systems, that forces us to deny what our own spirits and bodies are telling us. So, yeah, I'm really, as the season's starting to shape up, I'm really liking the way that it's sort of responding to some of these things that we talked about today and I just love again, one of the things I just I love about our podcast is just the different perspectives and life experiences that we get to witness and hear about and share with you all, and that continues to evolve and I'm excited, as always, for the people that we get to bring into your ear holes.

Lane 28:13

Yes, I'm honored by every conversation that we get to have, and including this one with you. So thank you, Jackie. And thank you to all the listeners out there, hope you're having a delightful fall and you'll be hearing more episodes from us shortly. That's it for our show today. Lane: Listeners, as always, thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed what you heard today. You can find and follow the Outer Known on any platform where you get podcasts. Keep the conversation going by joining us on social media. We are at Outer Known Pod on Instagram and Twitter. Our home for all things Outer Known is our website, outerknownpod. com. Today's episode was edited by Lane Collins and produced by Lane Collins and Jackie Peterson. Our theme music is by the ever-talented Smoke Bonito and our cover artwork is by Eric Centeno. Until next time, blessed it be.