Wayward Girls by Susan Wiggs

In this episode of Historical Happy Hour, bestselling author Jane Healey sits down with Susan Wiggs to discuss her moving and deeply researched novel, Wayward Girls. Inspired by the shocking true history of the Good Shepherd Institute in Buffalo, New York, the book sheds light on the hidden network of U.S. Magdalene laundries and the young women whose lives were upended there. Wiggs shares her personal connection to the story, her extensive research—including survivor accounts and archival documents—and how she crafted a fictional sisterhood of resilient characters navigating systemic repression, secrecy, and hope. The conversation also explores the creative process, challenges of writing historical fiction, and the enduring relevance of these untold histories.

Transcript

Jane: 0:02

Welcome to Historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting historical fiction novels. I'm your host Jane Healey, and in today's episode, we welcome bestselling author Susan Wigs to discuss her latest novel. Wayward Girls, which Library Journal called a powerful and Unforgettable novel that is a poignant and enlightening look into a sad chapter of recent history. It releases July 15th. Welcome, Susan. Thanks for doing this.

Susan: 0:29

Oh, thank you so much to, I guess you're a fellow lefty based on what I've read from you. No. No. What?

Jane: 0:38

Oh, is that that? I think that's the

Susan: 0:40

other Jane. Isn't that a different Jane Healey? There's three of us. Oh my God. Now I read that thinking you wrote it. Yeah. No, I, I guess I should look at the author picture, shouldn't I? No, that's, we get

Jane: 0:52

confused on that as well. Oh my God. There's a Scottish fiction writer, Jane Healey, and then there's a, um. There's a nonfiction writer who's also Jane Healey who has a PhD. Oh, okay. No, it was totally nonfiction and I thought, well, you're branching out, girl. Not that much when you get your PhD. There you go. Um, alright, I'm gonna do a brief intro on you and all your accomplishments and then we will jo dive into questions.

Susan: 1:19

Okay,

Jane: 1:20

awesome. Susan Wigs is the author of more than 50 novels, amazing, including the Beloved Lakeshore Chronicle series and the recent New York Times bestsellers, the Lost and Found Bookshop, the Oyster Mill, sewing Circle, and Family Tree. Her award-winning books have been translated into two dozen languages. She lives with her husband on an island in Washington State's. Puget Sound again, welcome. Thank

Susan: 1:45

you. It's lovely to be here. We're we're.

Jane: 1:49

Yes, exactly. So Wayward girls talk about the premise of this. Novel, which is, it's a beautiful story, beautiful book. It's based on fairly recent and frankly, shocking history. I didn't know of this place and, um, it kind of blew me away. So the, the good, it's based on the shocking history of the Good Shepherd Institute in Buffalo, New York. Talk about the premise and why you decided to write this. Yeah.

Susan: 2:15

Yeah. Thank you. And I, I felt the same way you did when when I heard about this, because many of us are maybe a bit familiar with the Magdalene laundries of Ireland. They're kind of notorious and they mm-hmm. They have recently been in the news. They're the mother and baby homes, the workhouses, it was mostly laundry work. Um, there was a Joni Mitchell song about it and, you know, all kinds of. Things came through from Ireland. Um, a big movie called Phil Philomena. I didn't really feel that connected to the stories, although I love them. And then something happened. I had, I guess, what you would call a recorded or, or a, a recovered memory. And I, I went to this little small town near Buffalo, New York where my brother and I, we kind of did a nostalgia tour there to the town where we grew up. We didn't really grow up. We moved away when I was about 10 and he was 12. We moved overseas, but we came, went back in 2021, I think for the first time and kind of revisited our old house. And, and one of the things we revisited was the Catholic church where we, where we went. And um, there's something about. And I think everybody can relate to this. When you step into a space, especially like a big grand church or something, the smells and the echoes and the sounds take you back to a place. And that happened to me. And I had a memory. I, I must have been really little, maybe eight years old, nine years old. And I said. John, you were an altar boy, and he said, yeah, you know, I got to be an altar boy for about five minutes. It was very exciting. And he was the one who swung the sensor with that puts the incense in during high mass and there's always singing and, and, you know, liturgical music and, um. And there's coals in it because they burn the incense and his sleeve caught on fire. And I never thought of that or remembered it until that moment. I, I don't know, I got a whiff of incense or something and I said, did that really happen? And he said, yeah, I think it did. And so for some reason we got into this discussion about the impact of the, of the Catholic church, you know, on kids, especially kids of the sixties. And then I did the thing that a lot of historical. Authors and readers and, and, you know, interested parties did I did the deep dive, you know, I started going down a rabbit hole at the library on the internet and I discovered that, in the United States, there were at least 38 Magdalene laundries where they sent the wayward girls. And probably the worst one that I heard about the actual building complex is still there, was in Buffalo at 4 85 Best Street. Um, if people wanna have a look at it, um, it's pinned, I think to the top of my Instagram feed my Susan Wigs Instagram feed. There's a quick overview that a, that a friend of mine shot for me. And it was, I was like, yeah, I was very shocked and blown away that this is what we did to girls. And then we started talking. John and I, I am, I'm a lot older than most of you, but we had, we, we had a babysitter who went away and when a girl went away, there was usually one reason for that. She had an unplanned pregnancy. And you know, they, they. Came back much changed. Um, very common that the baby was placed for adoption often against the girls' wishes. And so it, it was a pretty I don't know. It was, it was a. Really emotionally, um, and personal journey for me to see how these women were treated. And I discovered that it wasn't just for pregnant girls, it was for girls who didn't fit in. Maybe they, the social system failed them, the foster care. System failed them. Um, sometimes the parents who placed them there didn't understand that the nuns, were so harsh and they were forced labor. And so all of those stories started bubbling up. And I actually did find a couple of survivors. I read court documents because they are, some people are taking action under the clergy abuse laws. Um, so. Off I went, but I didn't want it to be like this really totally dark, depressing story. There. There, there are shocking aspects to things that happen, but I think ultimately it's a story of survival and sisterhood and, um, the stories of women that the world tried to silence and they would be silent no more.

Jane: 6:47

Yes I completely agree with your, you know, synopsis and it ends on an up note of resilience. I think, you know, and I'm not gonna share the ending of course but yeah, I, there's, there's a hopefulness to the story and to the resilience of these young women and the bonds that they. Shared all in this, sharing this collective trauma, basically. Mm-hmm. Um, so talk, I love talking about research. Of course. You said that, um, you posted a photo in a Buffalo, Facebook post group I read and, and all these stories kept, started pouring in. So talk about your research process. What some of your sources and any, was there anything that surprised you in your re that changed? Yeah, there was the,

Susan: 7:28

yes. Thank you. That's a, I enjoy the research process sometimes too much because it's very entertaining to me and, you know, then I've gotta go actually write the story. But, um, the research for this was really, interesting and gratifying. And I started, like I start all of my books, whether they're historical or contemporary at the library. And then this time I found a specialist librarian. She's the librarian of the Buffalo History Museum. And, um, she was really helpful in laying out what the neighborhood would've looked like in 1968 and, you know, some of the things that were going on, you know, where you went. You know, where the draft board met and you know, just little details like that, the bus station. One of the surprising things that I found out actually made it into the book and that is that, um, Niagara Falls dried up and. Yeah, in the summer of 1969 and it, I go into it in the book because the nuns who were in charge of these poor girls that were, you know, in the Good Shepherd of course deemed it a miracle. And it wasn't a miracle, you know, later gets explained. But that was kind of a little. Surprising fact. I learned that, for example girls were not allowed to listen to male voices singing. And so of course in my research all I wanted to do when I was a teenager was listen to music. And so, mm-hmm. It was really fun compiling, like a playlist to write to. So, part of my research was that, but then I did go online because, um, the, the internet is a big quagmire, but it also can target, um, you know, something very specific. So I found, uh, like a Buffalo nostalgia Facebook group, and they just sort of would swap stories where they went for ice cream, where they went to the amusement park, you know, things like that. And I, I posted just a simple question. I think I said something like is anyone familiar with, 4 85 Best Street and what it was like in the sixties and seventies. And, um, within a matter of hours, I think I got like 500 responses. And locals to the area were all saying things like, oh my gosh, my mother used to threaten to send me to the nuns. Or I knew somebody who had to go there. Or, you know, we had to cross the street when we went there. And, and people remember the razor wire at the top of the wall and how grim it all seemed. And so. I heard some personal stories and then eventually I found a survivor group online that were that consisting of women who had, who had survived it, and it's been closed for decades, but these women are still here and there's actually some court cases in progress. And so I was able to access those documents as well to try to put this story together.

Jane: 10:19

Amazing. Amazing. I think that's so true about the internet too. Like you can, it's such a dumpster fire, but then you can find such amazing like little facts and details too. I love that. I love that. It's a dumpster

Susan: 10:30

fire. Yes. That's a good word.

Jane: 10:33

So I wanna talk about the cast of characters.'cause it's a you cover, like there's a lot, a fairly large group of, of women who are in, in there together. I am the good Shepherd industry together. It's told from the pers perspective of Marin who was sent there to, to be protected actually from her stepfather, um, who was abusive. So the characters I know are all fictional. This is a work of fiction, but how did you develop them? Or any of them inspired directly from survivors or they composite. I'm always curious about that. Definitely they're,

Susan: 11:03

they're composites, but there was definitely one survivor who said her mom had a boyfriend who wasn't very nice. And so that w that was kind of marin's backstory. And then I tried to make it be sort of a little microcosm of each type of girl who might. Be there. Mm-hmm. There was one, uh, Chinese American girl whose parents were detained in communist China, and you know, she was supposed to be there for a couple of weeks and it just stretched out because they never came back. There was a real racial incident that I found out in my. Research in 1967 in Buffalo, and it was so intense that they had to, um, they, they brought in Jackie Robinson, the baseball star, to try to quell the race riots. And so I included a girl who was kind of swept up in that. There was another one who, and she was one of my favorite characters to write about. Her name is Odessa, and she, I, I think I loved her because she became a writer in la. Later in life we get to. Figure out, you know, find what the future holds for each of these girls. And then Angela is a girl who was really, really troubled because she had feelings for girls and did not understand them. And she was actually saved by a librarian who, who helped her sort out, you know, what was going on. And to find, and this is why I'm so passionate about the freedom to read. Any books because, um, we need books in libraries that are diverse enough so that we can see ourselves in books. And when Angela finally figured out what was going on with her obviously her very, very strict Irish Catholic grandmother, you know, sent her there to be reformed. And we all know how that sort of thing turns out. So it's kind of a, it, I kind of tried to pick. People from different areas who might typically find themselves in a place like this. And then I just, I love a sisterhood. I love when they team up. Um, and then the other thing that I found in my research that, um, surprised me and I was able to make use of is that. The library Bookmobile would visit this place once a month and um, I assumed that they were very strict about what books they let in and out of the Good Shepherd. You know, the nuns would go over it, but that figure is highly in the plot and carrying the girls forward into their future.

Jane: 13:25

Excellent. So the book, I, I love this quote I read from an interview with you and I wanna talk about it. The book highlights a time when women had limited access, access to contraception, sex education, and reproductive care. Yet it celebrates the grace and humanity of girls who, whose irrepressible spirit shines through. I love that quote, and I think that really sums up the tone that you set in the book and some of the themes. Talk about that, about how this is ultimately a book about resilience and grace, I think. Yeah.

Susan: 13:58

Thank you. Um, I think that I was really moved by the stories of girls at the time who. Really struggled with their their sexuality because it was so repressed. It really, really was, I think until Betty, free Friedan, Betty Friedan she wrote The Feminine Mystique and so I think that I was really, um, I was really. Moved by how they kept girls in the dark, in ignorance. Everything was up to the, every, everything was up to the girl. The boy was never held responsible. And so I was, I just found myself really fiercely passionate about that. I, you know, I've got a daughter, I've got a granddaughter, and so I'm always really preoccupied with, you know, how we treat women.

Jane: 14:47

I have two daughters and yes, I, I, I feel the exact same way. And I, it, when I was reading this, I was thinking the Magdalene Laund stories'cause my. Husband had a, a nanny growing up and she was the product of a girl who was in one of the Magdalene laundries in Ireland.

Susan: 15:04

And she, yeah. So, well, that's another thing that I discovered as this book was being written and now being published. Everybody knows somebody Yes. You know, you know, a girl, it was your babysitter, it was your sister's, you know, friend or something like that. Um, it's almost all too common. And then another thing that I learned is that there were a lot of. Irregular adoptions, meaning you know, they were either under the table or just, you know, somehow not right. And so, and they were sealed. And so, the very first thing that happens in the book is, um, a result of the final unsealing of New York State, um, adoption records. And so that's kind of what kicks things off.

Jane: 15:48

Yeah. I, I, I know in your author's note you said, I mean, I was shocked at the number of adoptions that were not above board, like in the millions, like during the sixties and seventies. It's unbelievable. I had no idea. So that, that was my question too. Like, so this is making its way out in the world. It's out on July 15th, but are like, do people. Yeah. Have a lot of people been like, I have no idea this existed in America. Or a lot of people, like you were saying, say, oh, I, I know of someone. I have a, a relative friend, you know, whatever. I, what's been the reaction to the story, to the history?

Susan: 16:25

Most people are really, they're, they're shocked and also intrigued. It's like, really? We did that to girls. And and then one of the earliest readers of the, of a draft of the manuscript was a, um, one of my favorite authors in the world, Jodi Olt. And she said, it's not just a moment in time. This is a cautionary tale because, um, there's a lot of concern about. How we're treating girls in today's world, and you know mm-hmm. Are we really doing a better job and we need to be doing a better job? And so, people who hear about this, they think that's not fiction. You know, that really happened. There was one in Seattle, there was one in Philadelphia. I mean, they were all over the place and, um, I'm not sure why they weren't more widely known.

Jane: 17:15

Yeah. Catholic Church is pretty good at keeping secrets, unfortunately. Definite. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Susan: 17:20

That is a quote. The Catholic Church is good at keeping its secrets. They do, yeah.

Jane: 17:25

Yeah. I have a bunch of writing questions that I ask every author who comes on, you have this massive and impressive back list. I'm like, oh my God. I.

Susan: 17:35

62. I I, when last I counted, I think Wayward Girls is 62. Unbelievable. Like I am not

Jane: 17:42

worthy. That's crazy. I've been busy. No kidding. I need to catch up like a long way to go. So is this your first foray into historical fiction? I was like trying to look it up, but it pretty much. I,

Susan: 17:56

I would say so, you know, I've written historical romance, um, you know, the sort of Bridgeton style, um mm-hmm. Sexy romance. Those are well researched historical books. But as far as like historical fiction, I would, I would count this probably as my first, and I definitely treated it differently as I was, you know, going through the revision process and making sure that it really felt authentic and brought the time. Life and it's kind of weird to think about something in my lifetime being historical, but there we are.

Jane: 18:31

Yeah, no, you, so was it, so in terms of like write writing in this genre compared to contemporary stories, like what I mean attention to like the details of the era, which you captured. There was a few of them that I was like, oh, like, like all the little, like television and music and like all these things. It was fun to see. Yeah. So was it, did you enjoy it like it was since this was really like your first historical fiction? I mean, no shade on historical romance.'cause I know all, all of you out there do a ton of research for those as well, so,

Susan: 19:00

correct. Um, I, I just wanted it to feel like you feel like you were there, you know? Yeah. And

Jane: 19:08

so,

Susan: 19:08

um, early on in the book, you know, she sneaks away to, to go on a movie date and they go see the graduate. Mm-hmm. And so I, you know, listened to that soundtrack and rewatch the graduate with Dustin Hoffman. And some things just really, encapsulate a moment in time. And so I tried to make it feel like that's what it's like, you know, that's what the wind off Lake Erie sounded like and smelled like. And that's what, this is a teenage job. And um, I was surprised when I read that, they used to go, they used to get on their bikes in Buffalo and ride across the Peach Peace Bridge to Canada and go to an amusement park there. Wow. And guys at the, or the, the people at the Kio, the, the immigration kiosks were just, um, teachers on their summer break and they just kind of wave'em through. Um, it was quite different back then, but I enjoyed learning about that as well. Very cool.

Jane: 20:03

Um, so what, in terms of your writing process I always ask are you a plotter? Are you a pantser? Do you write by the see your pants? Do you plot everything out? Like what's your process?

Susan: 20:13

Yeah, I, you know what I do all of the above. I kind of, I'm kind of like, a quilter. If you picture, you know, putting a quilt together, you pick these bright, colorful scraps that, you know, you put all in a basket and try to make sense of. And so initially I think, oh, what about a girl who does this? And what about that? You know, and, and so I kind of. Piece them all together. And then I do write a storyline and a synopsis. And this is something because you know, when you work with a, a, a publisher, but if I was not published, I would still do it. You write a synopsis, you write the beginning, middle, and end. Mm-hmm. And some people do that with a ton of detail. I do it with maybe medium detail. It's not my favorite because it's kind of like, you know, listening to your 7-year-old repeat the. The plot of Ice Age, you know, not, but it sort of, plots out a timeline. And so based on that, um, I try to get started and I do many, many drafts because uh, I, I don't trust myself to get it right the first time. And my first draft is always written in longhand in a notebook. And I think I do that to minimize distractions. And I've always done it that way. It's not super convenient. You know, I don't end up with this nice, neat. Type script in the end, but my story's there and I think it makes me commit a little more to the page that I've handwritten it out. I know you're you, most of this is auditory, but here's a. Here's a example. It's, it's kind of awful.

Jane: 21:50

Oh, amazing.

Susan: 21:51

You know, I know it's kind of awful but it feels very crafty to me, kinda. I

Jane: 21:56

understand that. And you're not the only writer to still to do that. And I also like the idea of having no, like, social media distractions or internet distractions to just get it all, like kind of get it all down without, of anything interrupting you. I, I kind of like that idea.

Susan: 22:11

And without a delete button, you know, I'm happy to cross things out, but the delete button makes me question myself more, I think. Mm-hmm. And, and so the first time around I like to have an actual store on actual paper and, you know, before. Phone cameras and things like that. I used to worry that my handwritten draft, it was the only copy in the world, and I would worry that, ooh, something's gonna happen to us. So if I was gonna leave the house for a while, I would, I would put it in the freezer, because I figure if the house burned down, that's great. It might survive in the freezer. But nowadays I just, you know, I snap a picture of each page if I haven't typed it up yet.

Jane: 22:50

Oh, that's smart. Yeah, that makes sense. I know, I would be sweating that too. So that's Yeah,

Susan: 22:55

that's right. My precious words. Yeah. Remember the, the scene the worst scene in little women was when the little sister, Amy, she burned Joe's manuscript, and I was like. Oh my God. I think I cried to watch more than that than I cried over Beth.

Jane: 23:12

I know it hurts to watch that. Oh yeah. So what part of the writing process do you really love and what part do you find the most challenging?

Susan: 23:22

Uh, the part that I really, really love is actually composing the book. And then there's a moment when I get to the end of the draft and I think, i've got something here. This is it, you know, and it's not the final draft, but and with Wayward Girls, I did a thing that was, that I'd never tried before because my husband and I decided to take a road trip to Texas from Bainbridge Island in Washington, where I lived to Texas, to see the eclipse. Last April, there was a, a full eclipse in, um. And we had family there. So we decided to take a road trip. And when we were on the road, I read the whole first draft aloud to him, it was kind of illuminating and it's an exercise that it's a little bit painful, but I would recommend read it to. Somebody where you can watch them.'cause he was driving and I would see his posture change or he would lean forward or he would yawn, you know? And so it was an interesting exercise for me to do. So that was actually a fun moment. But you need to have a really patient. Listener.

Jane: 24:25

Right, oh

Susan: 24:26

yeah, that's, yeah. So I loved it. That's, I

Jane: 24:28

could, I could see why that would be really helpful. I've, I've read it out loud to myself, but reading it out loud to someone else is a whole different ball game, so, yeah.

Susan: 24:35

Yeah. Very, very interesting. And then the part that I find super challenging is, um, the commercial part of it the marketing aspects. Um, you get inundated with. Cover art and marketing notes and catalog copy. And I have zero expertise in any of those areas. And so sometimes I feel very outta my depth when I'm trying to work with my publisher on how best to publish a book. Mm-hmm. And so, for example, for Wayward Girls, this cover. Gosh, I don't know how many iterations they went through and how many ideas they came up with. And they all look good to me. I'm not a designer. And so, um. It's such a process. The, the publisher has the creative art department try some different looks and then people weigh in and, you know, sometimes it's a, it's, you know, a fail and other times and you never know actually until the book hits the stands. And then you see it sitting there in the store and it's next to that book and that book. Is it gonna jump into the reader's hands or, you know, malinger on the shelf. And so that's, um, never my favorite to wait around for that. And my other favorite thing moment, and I hope every writer gets this chance, is to listen to your audio book performance.'cause that I, I rarely read my whole book. Do you do that when you're done with your book? You don't really read it back or? No, no. Oh, not when it's out in the world. I have no, I know the train has left the station, but we'll listen to the audio book.'cause a, a really good voice talent can add such a dimension to it. And for Wayward Girls, they actually had two voices because it spans, you know, 50 years. So they had two different women. And I'm such a fan of both of them. Cynthia Ferrell and Jane Oppenheimer read it. And then this one was. Special to me because they invited me to read the author's note at the end and the acknowledgements. And then there's a, a interview between my editor Rachel at Harper Collins and myself. And so we were, we were talking at the very end of that. So the audio book is pretty special. And so I do love when I can listen to my audiobook. So that's another high point for the writer.

Jane: 26:56

That is, I love, I love a good audio book. I love, I'm so impressed with the talent of narrators. I, you know, my next one is the woman of Arlington Hall and Gail Shalen is, her name is the audio book narrator's name and Oh, nice. She's just I, I am just like, how do they do it? How do they do all the voices? It's amazing to me, like listening to these audio books, you know? Well, and

Susan: 27:17

yeah, and after re I think I only read like, 500 or a thousand words or something at the end of the book. And it's a process, you know, it takes enormous concentration and focus. And when you're casually reading aloud, you don't notice it. But when you're reading aloud for a recording, it definitely takes on, you know, a, A feels weighty and I. See, I mean, I wish it burned more calories'cause I was sweating bullets, man.

Jane: 27:45

I'm sure. Yes. It's stressful. Yeah, I know. And and imagine having to do it for like 12 hours. That's, I always think about that. Yeah. Crazy. What, when you're on deadline, what is your writing routine like?

Susan: 27:59

My writing routine is pretty set and I've done it whether I had, you know, when I was first getting started, I was a teacher, I had a straight job, you know, because I didn't have a patron in the arts. And when I became a full-time writer, I just did more of it. I always try to produce a set number of pages per day, when. Composing it anywhere from three to five, which doesn't sound like a lot, and some days you accomplish it in a couple of hours and other days it takes the entire day. And so I, and when my, you know, when I was raising my daughter and, you know, had a busier life like that, I would actually take out a calendar and. Mark the days that were available to me to write where I didn't have other obligations, and I tried to stick to that because you know, I would go to it like a job.

Jane: 28:49

Mm-hmm.

Susan: 28:50

People have to go to jobs they don't like every day, and if I didn't feel like going to work, I would still go to work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I tried to, you know, train myself and I've had really good, um, writing mentors in the past. And one of'em is romance writer Debbie Macomber. Oh. She's one of the most disciplined writers I've ever met. Another one is Nora Roberts. Um, oh, wow. Those two are such role models to me. I just, I thought they were. Um, like goddesses for how, how productive they could be and every single one had the same thing. They would call it, bum glue, put the seat of your pants and the seat of your chair.

Jane: 29:27

Yep, yep. And

Susan: 29:28

yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I wish, you know, every writer thinks, all other writers have the secret and they're just not telling, you know, but it, it really is just time on task. It takes time.

Jane: 29:41

I know, I, I was like, you must have the secret. You've done the 60, over 60 novels. That's amazing.

Susan: 29:46

It makes me feel old when I, I look back and, but you know what, every time you start a book, no matter where you are in your career, you feel like a beginner. Yes. And it, it's probably good to start with a beginner's mind, but when I get frustrated, I, I have to do the self talk and say. You've done this before, you know? Mm-hmm. You didn't ruin your career. You know, this is gonna work. And I did feel, um. Extra tense about Wayward girls because it is a bit of a switch in tone. I used to write the beach books and mm-hmm. You know, the fun books and, and this one is, I hope it's a, a good read, but I wouldn't term it as a lighthearted beach read, like, welcome to Beach Town, or something like that.

Jane: 30:30

Right. So you've just already given a lot of good writing advice over the, over these last two questions, but, um, one of my questions I always ask is, what. Advice you have for aspiring authors about writing and also about getting published. So it's a two part question. As we know, those are two very different things. So,

Susan: 30:49

um, one thing that I like to do, I, I don't teach very much at. Anymore. I used to, I used to work with, with emerging writers. I call'em emerging instead of aspiring'cause they should be already writing. But I tell them, try writing your acknowledgement page first before you even write your book. And it kind, it might focus you on your motivation on the people who. Are going to help you get where you go. It's quite an illuminating exercise. So if you're an emerging writer and you feel like you want to try something, write your acknowledgement page, pretend that the book is done, and look back at the, your journey to write that book and then write your acknowledgement page. So that's just kind of a fun bit. And you might learn something about yourself as a writer.

Jane: 31:39

I love that. That's really cool. Yeah, I love,'cause I think a lot of times writing is just like a lot of mental tricks you have to play with yourself to like, get, like you said, get your butt in the chair and get being productive, yeah. Um, so yeah. Are you ready to talk about what you're working on next?

Susan: 31:54

Yes and no. Yes, I am working. Um, but I don't have enough detail to tell you anything Interesting. And, um, I, writers probably you, every writer I know gets asked, you know, which one is your favorite book? Yeah. And my answer is always the same. I always. Say I always say the next book, the book that I haven't spoiled for myself by writing.

Jane: 32:18

Right, that's

Susan: 32:18

excellent.

Jane: 32:19

Um, and how can readers best stay in touch with you?

Susan: 32:23

I'm pretty active on Instagram. I get some help with my Instagram, my website, susan wigs.com. I think when you first go there, there's a popup that says, um, that you can subscribe and I don't inundate people with newsletters, but if there's something coming up, you know, a new book or something like that, um, I encourage them to subscribe to my newsletter.

Jane: 32:45

Excellent. I think that is a wrap. I'm so glad we made this work with the time change. Yay. Everything. Thank you, Susan. I appreciate it. Congratulations on Wayward Girls. It's out July 15th, um, and it's poignant and beautiful and I'm sure that it's gonna be so, so well risk. Remember to follow the podcast or subscribe to YouTube for the latest episodes. Um, I'm recording a bunch, including with Susan ahead of time so I can focus on the launch of the Women of Arlington Hall, which comes out August 1st, thank you again, Susan. Thank

Susan: 33:17

you again. And I'm, I can't wait for Arlington Hall because I started, I, I learned about. The women of Arlington Hall during World War ii, and it was fascinating to me.

Jane: 33:28

Oh, thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed it. I hope, I hope you're not the only one that enjoys it. I can't wait to read it. Thanks so much.