Under Two Flags by Janis Robinson Daly

Bestselling historical fiction author Janis Robinson Daley joins Jane Healey to discuss her latest novel, Under Two Flags, inspired by a little-known 1918 memoir ghostwritten by Daley’s grandfather. The novel follows Josephine, a young American Jewish opera student who travels to Berlin during World War I to pursue her musical dreams amid growing political tension and hardship. Janice shares the remarkable true story behind the book, her research into wartime Berlin and opera training, and how she brought Josephine’s voice and resilience to life for modern readers. She also discusses writing found family dynamics, balancing historical fact with fiction, and why World War I remains such a compelling and underexplored era for historical fiction readers. 

Transcript

Jane 0:05

Welcome to the newly branded Jane Healy. Happy Hour, formerly historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting novels of all genres. I'm your host, bestselling historical fiction author Jane Healey, and in today's episode, we welcome Janice Dailey to discuss her latest novel between Two Flags, which has been called A Gripping Tale of Courage and Resilience. Welcome, Janice. Oh yeah. Yeah, I have it on. Thank you so

Janis 0:29

much Jane. Wonderful. Be to be here.

Jane 0:32

Yeah, thank you. I'm so, thank you for doing this. I know it just came out last week, so you've been very busy. So thanks for taking the time. I'm gonna do a quick bio and then we will dive in with questions. Great. A resident of great, a resident of Cape Cod, Janice Robinson. Daley is the award-winning author of historical novels that bring overlooked women's stories into the light. Inspired by the discovery that an ancestor founded the Women's Medical College of Pennsylvania in 1850. Daley's first two books, celebrate Pioneering Women in Medicine, and She Flags Honors another woman whose extraordinary Life unfolded in the shadows of history. She's also the founder of the Annual Literary Citizenship Initiative, 31 Titles. Titles, women in History, widely recognized by authors and readers as an innovative way to celebrate women's history Month each March again, welcome.

Janis 1:21

Great. Thank you. I, I feel like I should have a wine glass in my hand for happy hour,

Jane 1:25

but I know, I know it's a little early for that, for this recording. I've got my large extra large Dunking Donuts iced coffee with me.

Janis 1:31

There we go. There you go. Bloody Mary might work, but

Jane 1:34

That's right. That's right. Um, okay, so I was this is an extraordinary backstory about this novel. So it was based, it's based on a memoir ghost written by your grandfather. Yes. Talk about the premise. And why you decided to write it.

Janis 1:50

You know, I had two other books out. The Unlocked Path was my first book about the Women's Medical College, and then the second was a, a sequel, the Path Beneath Her Feet. This one had just, um, gone into production. In spring of 2024, I had a bits summer release and I was diving into research for next book and, uh, well into the idea, the time setting, you know, the historical event that I wanted to tie it to, and my brother showed up on my doorstep one day. Which was not unusual. He was my first editor. He was always dropping by with books on craft or books he thought I should read to get a better understanding of writing styles. But that day he had a different book in his hand, and it was actually a very old book, and it was off of his bookshelf called With Old Glory in Berlin. And we knew obviously, that our grandfather was a novelist in Boston in the 1910s and twenties, but we also knew he had worked on a memoir that he had ghost written actually for a Flying A from World War I that was from Newton, Massachusetts. When I opened this book, he said, you know, take a look at this one. I know you're into the women's history thing and this one might be interesting to you just to take a look at. And she's from Boston, where we grew up in the area. So I opened it up and the first thing I noticed was that the byline, the author name was Josephine Torres. It's like, okay, but when you open the inside of the book, you see that it has a foreword from the editor, and that was signed Elliot h Robinson, our grandfather. The more I started to get into the pages of the book, I was like, this is yes Josephine's story, but totally ghostwritten by our grandfather.'cause it was the exact same style we had seen in his other books. But the more I'm reading it or laboring through, read it'cause it was in 1918 prose, um, very dense, difficult to read. I'm still being gripped by the story of this young woman from Boston, 18 years old, who decides in the fall of 1916 to go to Berlin to study opera. There's a World War raging and she's going to the, aggressor nation, Germany. And I am feeling like, wow, her story of resilience and determination and passion needs to be brought forward, out of the shadows. No one's going to pick up this book published in 1918. Yeah, and, uh, no. So I decided that my next book would be a retelling of Josephine's story and recast into historical fiction. Thinking and hoping that more people would be apt to pick it up and read it. Right. Yeah.

Jane 4:52

Excellent. Um, so interesting. I love a good like, backstory about how you come up with a new idea for a novel. So the main character Josephine is she's an American Jew in Berlin. She's an opera student and of course the memoir must have been a huge source in terms of finding her voice.

Janis 5:13

Right.

Jane 5:13

But what was your character development process like for her?

Janis 5:17

So I, I definitely used the memoir as a guideline and as a, you know, as a skeleton to build out upon. But she didn't reveal, you know, too much about her own backstory. And more importantly for me, I'm thinking what drove that passion to the extent that she wanted to go to Berlin to study, because that's where the finest Music conservatory was. So I, I did some more research. The first thing I actually had to do was find out what was her last name because it was not revealed, oh. In the book, when it published in 1918, she was concerned about her identity that German sympathizers. Might not take kindly to all that she was revealing about life in, in Berlin during the war because of the German propaganda machine. So the very first thing I had to do was find out what her full name was.

Jane 6:13

Yeah.

Janis 6:14

Which I, I, I did with the help of, actually an archive is at the Boston Public Library, we found, uh, Mariinski and then from there I was able to learn more. Learn about her father's death, um, when she was a teenager and she was the oldest of the family. And how might that have shaped her? That she did study singing in Boston with a very fine, uh, voice instructor at the time, um, that she was Jewish. She didn't reveal that anywhere in the memoir. And I don't know if that was, again, fear of antisemitism at the time, but, um, I found that on, you know, some of her documents. So tho those were some of the key, character development pieces I wanted to nurture further and build her out and build her c character arc out as well.

Jane 7:05

Yeah. And you know, I read in your author's notes that she didn't mention that she was Jewish in the memoir, um, which I thought was so interesting. I think it, it was, it really enriched the story to incorporate her Jewishness when into her character and to her experience when she goes to Berlin. I mean, I can't, yeah.

Janis 7:23

Yeah. And I, I think, you know, pretty much anyone of any faith when you're in serious life threatening situations are going to draw upon your faith in some manner. Mm-hmm. Um, to, to support you and to uplift you. And so that, so that's what I brought in, into the retelling as well.

Jane 7:44

Yeah, absolutely. And so music is obviously a big part of Josephine's life gifted opera singer. Are you musical and did you find, like, how'd you get, how'd you like research and, and kind of get in her head in that way?

Janis 7:58

Yeah, not, not a musical bone in my body, even though my grandfather, the novelist, actually wrote music and performed in a church choir in Boston. That gene did not get passed on. I, I was the one who, um, studied ballet for 10 years and I still had to count the beat of the music. Everybody else was just flowing with the music. So I, um, I. I, uh, decided well, I, I need to learn more about music. I need to learn about the study of music, particularly the training of an opera student. Very fortunate. I connected with, um, a woman at the New England Conservatory right in Boston, who is a voice instructor, Jessica Block, and she was fabulous. She invited me to come down and interview her so I could understand what was her passion, what made her. Switch courses from starting out as a pre-med student and going on, um, into voice. So I, I interviewed her and then she also interview invited me to come back and sit in on one of her classes with one of her students. And that was amazing to watch, you know, the warmup exercises and then Jessica's critique of the young woman's performance, um, that she was working toward.

Jane 9:16

Oh, very cool. I wanna ask more about your research'cause this takes place, you know, Berlin, Don of World War I, and I think, you know, there's been some historical fiction written about that era, but not as much as say, world War ii. So, talk about your research to, about, you know, for the whole story about the time and the place and was there anything that surprised you?

Janis 9:37

Yeah. So, um, you know, there, there is, good material in the original book. Um mm-hmm. Josephine's almost diary like entries about living through rations and how it affected the populace how it affected. The people, you know, that conscription age for the German, uh, men was down to the age of 17 at that point. You know, so watching sons and, and brothers, you know, marching off, you know, in the streets off off to France. So a little bit of that was in the book, but I, I definitely dove into more research to understand that. I found another memoir actually about a English woman who was married to Prussian nobility. Um, and she was living in Berlin at the same time, so that was also rich material, and, and I borrowed a couple of her experiences and, and ascribed them to Josephine as well because of the fiction part of the story.

Jane 10:34

Oh, yeah, I, yeah. You mentioned that book in your, uh, in your research notes as well. So I wanna talk about like, you structured this because she's musical in kind of acts and overture and intermission, and so was that something that you in, like planned on from the very beginning or is that something you added later on in the process?

Janis 10:55

Uh, definitely I added it. You know, I, I started out with literally going through chapter by chapter of the original memoir and rebuilding it a minute. Deleting a a lot. You know, she had so many extra extraneous people that she mentioned once and then disappeared. I was like, well, no, it's gonna bog down the story because it does bog down the story. And then the further I got into it, and as I was nearing the completion. I felt, you know, how and why did I come to write this? It was because the book by my grandfather was on my brother's shelf, and I thought, you know, I, I wanna include that as well.

Jane 11:33

Mm-hmm.

Janis 11:33

And, and how can I weave in her interaction with my grandfather? So that's when I, I came up with the idea of like, an opening. Of a performance is the overture, then there's an intermission and then there's a finale when you write, wrap everything up. So I decided I'd use that approach. And so I do have those three moments in the book where my grandfather and he is named as Mr. Robinson appears and has, you know, direct dialogue assumed, um, with Josephine as they're writing her story. Yeah.

Jane 12:12

Very cool. You know, I wanna talk about kind of the found family cast of characters around her. You said that in the original memoir there was a lot of different people you could have chosen from and you had to distill that down. How did you develop the characters, like the mus and the love interest, like, you know, how'd you come up with those?

Janis 12:32

Yeah, so certainly the, the family that she went to live with the, um, she called them the millers, I meant'em to make them more German. And they were the Mueller's with a U, you know, definitely they embraced her. They invited her to come and live with them as an American, even though at the time, the US was still neutral. So I really wanted to develop that family and have them become her family. In lieu of the family she had left behind she did have a, a cousin that was German. The original book was a little sketchy of what was his. Family connection. So I, I kind of made that a much more direct that it was her mother's, um, nephew and then, um, a few of her, the students around her becoming also her found family, a couple of them, not all of them. Um, you know, because those other people in our lives particularly who become our friends, also become family. Mm-hmm. So, I, I wanted to focus on that family connection. Because she had left her family completely behind in America, and so she, she needed that support to help her get through all that she was, and then the love interest, when I was writing my first book and I was so focused on women empowerment and, and his, the history and the events, and I had an editor say, you gotta throw a love and trust in just to make it a little bit more appealing. I was like, okay. You know, the, the love interest? Yes. The, um, German officer is in the original book, but I play it up a little bit more of, of what could have been their relationship.

Jane 14:11

I always like a good love interest. Yeah. I agree. Sure. Yeah. If two under two Flags became a movie, who would be your dream actor to play Josephine?

Janis 14:20

Oh, boy. You know, I was just thinking of this the other day because I had, um, I had been thinking of. Who I had cast for my first two books. And I don't know all the young actors and actress.

Jane 14:33

Me neither. I was like, trying to think myself and I'm like, oh, I dunno.

Janis 14:37

Natalie Portman. So let's go with and I won't pronounce her name correctly. Alicia. Alicia, then, oh.

Jane 14:49

Oh, I don't know. I wish I could help you out there.

Janis 14:52

I, I can only remember her because I remember at the Academy Awards a couple of years ago in a beautiful yellow Louis Vuitton dress, and my niece worked for Louis Vuitton, so I was always walking, watching. Oh, cool. Who was she dressing? Alicia Van. Something. Something.

Jane 15:09

Okay. Alright.

Janis 15:11

But she's, she's a very talented. Self-assured young woman that I, I think would do a, a good job with Josephine's character.

Jane 15:20

Cool. What is your writing? I always have some writing questions for the second half of the interview. What's your writing process like? Are you a plotter? Are you a pants, are you somewhere in between?

Janis 15:32

Somewhat in between. Start with a a, a rough plot outline. Then I always find, even though I've done a ton of research upfront, I always pause to do some more research and that, you know, takes you down those rabbit holes and then you're like, oh, that's interesting. I think I need to reshape this scene or this chapter and include that. And then how am I gonna. Do that as I look back and see how it'll naturally flow in. So, a little bit of both for sure. But I, I need to have a very rough outline first to, mm-hmm. To get me started.

Jane 16:12

And this novel, you know, you had the memoir as like a primary source material, right?

Janis 16:17

Yeah.

Jane 16:17

Um, what, how is that different from your first two novels? In terms of like having that base?

Janis 16:24

Yeah. So, uh, you know, my first two novels I did use some primary sources in the terms of, um, letters and correspondence that I found in the archives of the Women's Medical College, which is held now by Drexel University. Um, but this one, I, I really did rely deeply on, uh, josephine's information in the book that she revealed. And then, um, you know, other primary sources was what I found in my research where I plugged her name into ancestry.com. Mm-hmm. And, and what did I found, you know, including even the death certificate for her father.

Jane 17:02

Oh wow.

Janis 17:03

Which all she, you know, she had just mentioned that her father had passed, but not how or why or, or too much when, and he was a, a Polish immigrant. So, you know, how did that shape her and what values would he have perhaps instilled in her? Which she carried through, which primarily was her patriotism. Her connection to being a, an American where her father was an immigrant, and thinking that at the time, certainly, immigrants were eager to assimilate. Mm-hmm. And to be proud to say that their children born in America were American citizens. Yeah.

Jane 17:44

Excellent. What is the hardest part of the process or the part you find the most challenging and the part you enjoy the most in terms of writing?

Janis 17:53

Uh, the most challenging is the editing.

Jane 17:57

Really? That's interesting because I find the first draft the hardest thing. Yeah.

Janis 18:02

Yeah. Um, I mean certainly, yes. Getting started, but I, I think because the I'm so excited. To get the story done and onto some form, on my keyboard or on my screen. That's the exciting part. But then the editing of going back in and saying, all right, I know stuff needs to be cut. What's gonna be cut? I know scenes need to be developed further, but where and how. Mm-hmm. So for me, the, the editing part's the most challenging and taking, you know, feedback from my beta readers and from my editor and saying, do I agree with them or not?

Jane 18:41

Do you have a, um, a community of beta readers or like a writing group or something like that, that you work with?

Janis 18:47

Um, not a, a formal writing group where we do critique swaps or anything, but I do have now, since I've had three books out now a very reliable. Circle of beta readers. Um, I have two that have read all three of my books. They are writers, um, Ashley Sweeney, who's a historical fiction author. She's actually become my writing mentor. Nice. And then another gentleman. So I always get the male perspective, you know, is important when you're writing. Uh, women's historical fiction and there are male characters. And I met him at a writing retreat, uh, Dennis Blackman. And then just a, um, an avid reader who is a very critical reader as well that I've met through my online book club. Deb, Kylie. She has been, and she dives deep for me. She, uh. The questions about, you know, accuracy of the historical facts that I'm throwing in there. She's like, well, I researched it further and I don't know about that.

Jane 19:42

Oh, always good to have those people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Do you have a writing routine when you're on deadline for a project?

Janis 19:51

Um, I try to, um, I am, um, not no longer working full time in the corporate world at that end of a year and a half ago, but I'm never been a morning person. I applaud those people that can get up at four or five in the morning and write. No, never, ever. So I, I, when I'm focused on deadline and I know my goals of, you know, word count per day or per session I write at night. Like seven to nine.

Jane 20:21

Mm-hmm.

Janis 20:21

And I, I can't do a lot, I can't sit down in eight hours and write. I just can't. I have to get through one scene and fully immerse myself in that scene. And then I get up and the next morning, not early, and, and after I've had my first cup of coffee I'll reread. What I wrote the night before, just while it's still fresh to see if I need to tweak anything or do I need to do additional research right on the spot. Mm-hmm. And then get back to it. Yeah. So it's, it, yeah. It takes me a while.

Jane 20:49

No, I think that, you know, and I, I mean, I think that it's such a, like. It's such a mind, like so much thought and focus and concentration has to, especially with that first draft I find most writers I talk to, like, I can do four to five hours and then I'm toast. Like, I can't do more than that a day. It's because it's just too much brain work for me. Right. I need to go for a walk or like do something else. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I feel that. Yeah. What's the best advice you can give aspiring authors?

Janis 21:21

Don't give up. I mean, if you believe in the project that you're working on and you have that passion to tell that story, it will happen. And there are so many different ways we're fortunate today, you know, to get published.

Jane 21:37

Mm-hmm.

Janis 21:37

So I think, just hold tight to your confidence and your belief and don't let it go. Because if you feel that this story does need to be told and shared with others you can make it happen.

Jane 21:54

Excellent advice. Are you ready to share what you are working on next?

Janis 21:59

Not full details, but I'm going back to that original story idea that I had before my brother showed up his, my doorstep. So it, it will also be World War I based. Mm-hmm.

Jane 22:11

Um,

Janis 22:11

because I do, I do think that it is an underrepresented era. It is, um, focused on an event that occurred, so a singular event during the war. And, and there's a little Easter reg planted in under two Flags that talks about that event. So I guess you have to read that book to get more details and try to figure out which event I'm, I'm talking about. But it, it, it will be, um, very significant especially to people from Boston.

Jane 22:42

Oh, cool. That's great. I love anything that's connected to Boston.

Janis 22:45

Yes.

Jane 22:46

Obviously how can readers best stay in touch with you?

Janis 22:50

Yep. Um, I am on social media. Facebook and Instagram. Don't be looking for me anywhere else. Um, just on those two. That's all I can manage. So Facebook, it's just Janice Robinson daily author, and, uh, Instagram. It's Janice r daily under writer. And so I, those are my two public accounts. Uh, and then I, on my website, Janice, with an SR daily DALY dot com. I have a very robust website and a annoying little popup that encourages you to sign up for my newsletter that goes out just once a month. I tell people I'm not gonna inundate you in your inbox. So follow me. On, uh, social, but, or sign up for my newsletter to get more information on, on my updates and on my events that I'm doing.

Jane 23:36

Awesome. This is delightful. Js thank you so much. Congratulations on your great new novel. I your third under Two Flags released last week. So it's available wherever books are sold. Congratulations again. My latest novel from Lake Union Women of Arlington Hall is out. Now, don't forget to follow historical. I mean by keep doing that. Don't forget to follow happy hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts or subscribe to my YouTube channel. Thank you so much, Janice. Congratulations again, and, um, take care. Good luck with your launch.

Janis 24:08

Thank you so much for having me, Jane.