018 - Know All Your Exits - Will and Estate Planning with Joshua Keleske, JD, MBA

Planning or thinking about end-of-life decision-making can be daunting. In this episode, Coach JPMD has the honor of interviewing Joshua Keleske, JD, MBA on the importance of Estate Planning and Living Wills. Joshua, following in the footsteps of his grandfather, committed himself to provide exceptionally skilled legal counsel. Born in Racine, Wisconsin, Joshua is a member of The Florida Bar and The State Bar of Wisconsin. He is certified in Wills, Trusts, and Estates by the Florida Bar. Joshua helps us to define what we often tell our patients to do. Coach JPMD uses real-life scenarios to dissect a difficult subject for many. If you’re a physician or healthcare provider without an estate plan, you will not want to miss this episode.  Planning your exit is just as important as building a successful medical practice and will help you to Practice Impossible.

Schedule your FREE consultation with Joshua to get your plan started by following this link here https://trustedcounselors.com/

Show Notes

 Discover how medical graduates, junior doctors, and young physicians can navigate residency training programs, surgical residency, and locum tenens to increase income, enjoy independent practice, decrease stress, achieve financial freedom, and retire early, while maintaining patient satisfaction and exploring physician side gigs to tackle medical school loans. 

Transcript

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Intro  0:00  
Welcome to the Practice Impossible Podcast where your host, Jude A Pierre MD, also known as Coach JPMD discusses medical practice topics that will guide you through the maze that is the business of medicine, and teach you how to increase profits and help populations live long. Your mission, should you choose to accept, is to listen and be transformed. Now, here's your host, Coach JPMD.

Coach JPMD  0:25  
So today, we're joined by Josh Keleske. He's an attorney. He's actually my attorney licensed in Florida, as well as Wisconsin. And we're going to talk about wills, trusts, estates and financial planning that he does in his practices and his practice in Florida. And he counsels his clients through the estate planning and corporate transactions. And he's got over 20 years of experience, real world experience, and he knows how to bring money saving solutions to his clients and planning solutions as well. And he's helped me tremendously as well as some family friends. So welcome, Josh, to the Practice Impossible Podcast.

Josh Keleske  1:03  
Yeah, I appreciate you having me, Jude. Thank you.

Coach JPMD  1:05  
So, you know, should I call you Deacon Keleske, or?

Josh Keleske  1:11  
No, so, so glad you brought that up. So so as we talked about earlier, I'm involved through the formation of the permanent diaconate in the Catholic Church, that's a four year formation, I am approximately one month into it, okay. And basically, the way it works is we've got four years of academic study, spiritual formation, it's a ton of, it's a ton of work, I'm super excited about it, my wife and I went through a formal discernment through the diocese, which took about six months, six months application process, I mean, I'm, I guess I'm more than a year into it, really, but formation is new. And the way it works basically, is the church through the bishop through our Bishop will decide which men are called to the diaconate on behalf of the entire church. And, you know, we're basically told that we are presenting ourselves for the possibility of the diaconate all the way up until the day before the ordination. So the church will decide, and my only goal is to say yes to our Lord. So we're, we're going with it. And as you know, you know, I'm pretty much a type A, and I like to be in control. So for the first time in many years, I'm letting God take complete control. And I'm basically just saying yes, and going with the flow. It's it's not my nature, but we're doing what we can. So I'm very excited. It's a great journey.

Coach JPMD  2:31  
That's cool. I know you were pretty excited about it. When I when I first learned about it. And I have to be honest, I was a little confused, because I went to my fiancée, and I said, You know what Josh is? Actually, I think he’s gonna be a priest. I'm like, he's got like, she's like, you, you're.. he's married! What are you talking about that’s not how that works!

Josh Keleske  2:50  
Yeah, the church. So the diaconates been in the church, and since the Acts of the Apostles, really, but it became transition Deacon, really, for probably 1000 years. So the first 1000 years, there were permanent Deacons in our church, and the, for a variety of reasons, the, it became transition. So from man going into the seminary studying to become a priest, he's ordained a deacon, typically, you know, six months to a year, he's a deacon, and then he's ordained a priest. And then with the Second Vatican Council, the church decided to restore the permanent diaconate, understanding the need for man that are living in the world to be a bridge, essentially, between the church and the world, where the hope would be that deacons can be a servant to the church, showing the congregation, what we're all called to do, which is diakonia, which is service for each other as Christ was. And then at the same time, you know, to be able to be that the bridge from the laity to the church, so that the bishop and the priests understand the needs of the congregation, so they can be served as served properly. So it's a it's an awesome role. You know, it's one that can't be done by a man it needs to be done by the Holy Spirit. And man just says, yes. So we're, we're in the middle of that. I've got a lot of my brothers that are in the formation with me that, you know, I think we're probably all just sort of wondering, like, what are we doing, and we realize it's not about us, it's what's God's asking of us. So we just need to accept that and know that we're not alone on our journey. So it's, it's super exciting. I know, I had a client when I told them about it. They said, This is me, I need to find a new attorney. And I sort of laughed and I said, it doesn't really work that way. So the way our service to the church is, is we're getting a we give it to the church, but we don't necessarily work in the church in an employment setting. So we'll continue to do what I'm called to do as an attorney, which I love serving families, which is fantastic, you know, 22 years now into it. And then if God willing, the ordained in four or more years or whatever it might be by the bishops call and then and then have a dual role, which is, which is really cool. I'm excited about it.

Coach JPMD  4:59  
Cool. So this episode, we're going to do something different. We haven't done this before with our guests, but because you're an attorney, because you have the experience, and because of the way physicians learn these days, we, we learn by by scenarios by cases and things that we come up against. And so I'd like to kind of do an episode where we discuss case scenarios. And, you know, what would you do in certain situations, and I think we kind of discussed which ones that we would do this, I'm not sure which ones you're going to bring. But let's say you're a young doctor starting off, and you've got no assets, no family or kids and joining a hospital group with a fairly good salary. What would you tell that doctor he needs?

Josh Keleske  5:42  
I mean, I'd say that baseline it's, I think one of the challenges I run into with probably young physicians, but it's probably a statement that applies to young professionals is that there's kind of a misperception that they don't need to worry about certain things like estate planning, or even just you know, how they want to organize their finances until they're further along. And I find that that's a bit of a challenge, because if they go down the road, and it's the wrong road, it's it's costly and time consuming to back up and start over. So I would prefer to have my young physician clients assemble a team of advisors as a starting point that they would want to rely on, an attorney or financial planner, accountant, the needs that they'll have in the beginning may be modest, but they'll likely grow with time. So if they can develop a relationship based on trust, they'll, they'll be able to make the right steps. And then specifically to estate planning, usually, my physician clients, maybe not so much newer physicians, but certainly my established physicians will not only want to think about estate planning, which we'll talk about in greater detail later, though, they want to talk about asset protection, and how do they make sure that what they have or what they'll accumulate is protected. In the event that there's a malpractice claim, or just generally, you know, I find that a lot of physician clients are concerned that, that they're a physician. And if they get an auto accident, they're just going to get sued, just because of what they do for a living in the perception that they have big income or lots of assets. So if a young doctor starting out, even with modest assets, understands that they can build from ground zero, a proper asset protection plan, built inside of their estate plan, you know, it's it's highly functional. It's not necessarily complicated, but it's protecting themselves from the beginning. So, you know, I will typically go through relatively easy asset protection strategies, and then build it typically around an estate plan. And just really from an the concept of an estate planner, that term is somewhat misunderstood. I've got a lot of clients, young doctors really in particular, though, so I don't really have an estate, so I don't really need a plan. They just and they'll say, Well, I just need a will. And in reality, a will is an estate plan. It's a it's a type of an estate plan. So you know, even as a relatively simple will, it says who's going to get someone's assets when they pass away, but also power of attorney to govern management of financial decisions. And then I'm never surprised with any physician client that I represent, or anyone in the medical field really, when I asked the question, you know, do you have a Medical Directive? It's almost always no. And I think sometimes it's the old expression that the cobblers kids don't have great shoes. And so just to think about having even a very simple health care directive, or or there may be a few. So that decisions are managed by the people you decide. And so it's it doesn't have to be complicated. What I do figure out is you build what might be a simple estate plan, and then as someone's life changes, perhaps they get married, start a family, accumulate assets, then they just build on it, it's really no different than like having a starter house when you graduate from school. It's not necessarily the one that you're going to finish in, but it's functional, it's when you like, and then you can grow into something bigger.

Coach JPMD  9:01  
Yeah, so you mentioned power of attorney because I know the importance of a power of attorney, especially in my elderly population that, you know, maybe widowed, or or not married. What does it mean? What is a power of attorney? For those that don't really know. And they think that that's more of a legal term that they they give someone to sign documents for them. So what does that mean to a physician who has no no no family, or no one to.. no spouse?

Josh Keleske  9:26  
So it's, it's I mean, it's probably a good starting point is to differentiate types of powers of attorney at just a high level, the first of which would be a financial power of attorney. The second is that as a healthcare power of attorney, the adjective helps us so the financial power of attorney is oftentimes very broadly written, giving someone the broad authority to manage financial decisions that could be to take control of assets. It could be making investment change, you know, really, it could also maybe be to deal with a health insurance company. So you know, If I'm acting on my wife's behalf to manage a decision for that's going to cost money, I may have to contact the insurance company. So having a power of attorney for my wife, or from my wife, rather, would give me that authority. So we would usually recommend a very broad financial power of attorney or at least as a starting point. But I can tell you, there's many cases where we have a fairly limited power of attorney and a classic example, would be with a real estate transaction. So I actually did this with my wife, when we moved to Florida. 20 years ago, I was practicing in Wisconsin, I didn't really have the luxury of coming down to look for houses, was trying to transition down. And so I gave my wife a special power of attorney to manage a real estate transaction on my behalf. You know, back in 20 years ago, we didn't do things as digitally as we do now. But the idea was to give her a specific authority. And then once the authority was no longer needed, the power of attorney went away. We don't see that overly frequently. But it is a useful tool, we tend to recommend for clients to have a broad document. And typically the is broad. Also from the timing perspective, it's typically available right away for use, but then it almost never has an end date. And, and so in other words, I might give I do in fact, I did give my wife a power of attorney, very broad gives her the all the kind of financial authorities you can possibly imagine, to do things for me and really, for our family, and it doesn't have an end date, other than, you know, the end date is when I die. So it's a living document. On the healthcare side, that terms, obviously, you know, easier to get your arms around, but it's just to make sure we manage medical decisions. You know, here in Florida, we often call that a healthcare surrogate. But some states use the term health care power of attorney, some healthcare proxy, but the concepts are essentially the same, which is, if I'm not able to manage a medical decision, I can give the authority to someone else to do so. And then, in a little side note, which is something that all physicians learn about certainly is that I always include in a Medical Directive, a HIPPA release. HIPAA, as you as you know, Jude you’ve been in practice for a long time. It's been around since really 1986, although the part of the Privacy Rule came into being in 2005. And really, in the beginning, I don't think that was really enforced very well. So you know, I could go to the doctor talk about my wife's care, and they were fairly liberal and giving information. The game's changed a lot now. So there's some fairly stiff financial fines if there's HIPPA breaches, so. So we always think about the health care power of attorney coupled with a release under HIPAA. And it's, it's kind of intuitive, how can I expect my wife to manage a medical decision for me if she doesn't have access to information, so we're really just just marrying up those two. So you would see that in a in a typical healthcare directive to do both manage decision but also access information.

Coach JPMD  12:57  
So let's go back to the power attorney for the finances. I had a patient the other day say, Well, I have a child, I have some assets, I'm going to sell my house. And but that child has had some legal issues, drug issues or whatever, not trustworthy to manage her finances, should something happen to her she was a little older. So how is can you assign it to someone else? Or an entity or a bank? Or how does that work? If you don't have a person to assign a power of attorney to do?

Josh Keleske  13:25  
Yeah, I mean, that's a challenge. So the Florida Statutes in particular states are similar contemplate the possibility of a an institutional agent on a power of attorney, I have not worked with any in Florida. In fact, they all shy away from it. So we tend to look for people. I'm I'm a big believer in thinking about who's close to you, like who's in the inner circle? First. So and because power of attorneys really predicated on trust, I'm giving someone broad authority to manage a financial decision. That's a big deal, you know, someone could take advantage of it. So we want to make sure we're smart about who we designate. But to your point, you know, what do you do if your inner circle isn't as great as we would like it to be? There are certainly options beyond that. The one that I use frequently in the recent past is to have professional fiduciaries engaged. So individuals who hold themselves out to act professionally on a power of attorney, they can do that also on a healthcare directive, but they're, they're paid, they're paid to perform a service and you know, they're held to a standard because they're a fiduciary. And if they blow it, you know, we have to we have recourse because I, I don't see that used frequently, because when I bring up the concept, most of my clients will say, well, wow, that's a stranger. I don't know if I want a stranger having access to my assets. And so then they end up digging deeper and looking for someone that they trust. It could be a an advisor they work with, I have some clients that will name their accountant, some will name an attorney. I certainly don't volunteer that role. I don't wish to be in that position unless it's for a family member. But on occasion well you know, we just have to dig deep we look at who's around us that we trust. My aunt having a loved one. That's that's not trustworthy. That's unfortunate. But we have to then just search. Okay, who else can we find that we would trust to have access to our financial information? But then also on the on the medical side? Because it's a, it's a two part question. Really?

Coach JPMD  15:25  
Sure. Sure. So let's go to the second case, this case has probably would mirror me 15 years of practice, I had no will, I had no power of attorney, I had none of this. But what, seven, eight years ago, when, when we first met, and you know, for kids? What should a physician have in place? And I think your answer to that, you know, you have to have the power of attorney, but in the healthcare surrogates, but what are some of the horror stories you've seen in a doc or in anyone who's had that life where they have kids? And they didn't have a plan? Can you share any any stories?

Josh Keleske  16:00  
Yeah, I think the well, I mean, kind of big picture. But I can we can talk about a couple of cases I've worked on. But I mean, big picture is in the absence of any planning, we're relying on state law to decide what happens. And that's really in the context of someone passing away but and really an example that comes to mind, although it's not with a physician client, it's kind of it's kind of it's a very sad story. I handled a probate matter did not gentleman passed away, very tragically, he was married, he had three minor children. And he had a home, and it was in his name only, as well as some financial assets. So when his widow, widowed wife, contacted me, you know, we went ahead and helped her transition assets from her deceased husband to her family. And she was shocked to learn that in the state of Florida, when that situation presents itself, that she was not going to become the sole owner of her home. And that's because it was just in her husband's name. So Florida Statutes dictated a very difficult result, which was she she ended up becoming a co owner of her home with her three children. So at some point in the future, when she chooses to sell it, they have, they're all going to participate, and they're all going to be involved in the in the sale, I would be willing to bet her husband had no idea that would happen. Had he known that he may have done something different, you know, could have been, the house would have been jointly owned, or I don't know what they would have done differently, but they would have done something differently. So it's essentially the statutes creating a result that's inconsistent with what a family member would want. And so…

Coach JPMD  17:35  
So the judge, so in that situation, the judge in the probate courts could not override that law.

Josh Keleske  17:41  
Right.

Coach JPMD  17:41  
Or that…

Josh Keleske  17:41  
Yeah…

Coach JPMD  17:41  
I mean, is that a law that’s written in Florida?

Josh Keleske  17:44  
Yeah, that's, that's constitutional and in our and supplemented by our statute. So we have, and I've actually have three of those cases, one of which was difficult, because the person who passed away had two children, one of whom was not the child of the widowed spouse, and they were estranged. So it created an unbelievably difficult dynamic, the legal work is not difficult, frankly, we can help them retitle it. But then they have to live with that reality, which is really difficult. So that could have been avoided with proper planning. And frankly, it's not very complicated planning. It's a matter of educating a client. And what I've discovered when those types of things happen, it's frankly, either because someone wasn't interested in doing planning, they procrastinated, they didn't know they needed planning. Or sometimes people go on the internet and do their own will. And you know, they don't know these nuances. And so the DYI version of estate planning can create a big disaster. So staying away from all of that is really critical, the other, the other one that's that's not uncommon, really from a lack of planning. And I'm certain that kind of pick on you Jude, per se, but just to think of someone kind of in your situation, you know, an unmarried physician client passing away with minor children, and no estate planning. The result is that the minors would receive assets through a court appointed guardian. And when they turn 18, the miners will get their did will receive their deceased father's assets. They're all under age still. So that's not an issue. But the challenges, especially with physician clients who have a high income potential, they often have other things like life insurance, and so on, that you run into a situation where an 18 year old is receive $1,000,000.00 or two million dollars, whatever it might be. And that's a recipe for disaster. I haven't met too many 18 year old's that are capable of managing assets. So that situation is avoided by having an estate plan. So it's whether it's a last will and testament or a revocable trust, just outlining what we want, you know, it's not unusual to write a plan. And I'll take myself, my wife and I have two children who are minors. If we have a plan that says when we're both gone, everything for our children is held in trust until they reach a certain age. I've overridden the Florida Statutes. I've decided what I wanted instead of letting the court decide, and it's that's not rocket science, but it's just being thoughtful, and what you want for your children, and then putting it in a legally appropriate document. And it's, you know, it's, I don't want to dumb down per se what I do, but it's, I think it's probably not it's analogous to the work you have, I'm sure you've got patients that will go on the internet to self diagnose, and when they come in, and they've got articles and stuff of what their problems are you sort of chuckle and realize you've got a hangnail, ma'am, it's okay. You're not dying. So we see that too. But it's it's just a matter of understanding the simplicity of planning and then building it to make it work for your family.

Coach JPMD  20:57  
Yeah, I think you opened my eyes to certain things that I needed to do also with, with the kids, because I've seen families, you know, in as families get older, and things happen, and husbands and wives pass away. And then the kids come and swarm from different states and fight for assets. And one of the questions you asked me was, Jude, you're almost done with this. What happens to your assets, your watch, or your tables and all that? How do you want that distributed? I'm like, What do you mean? Because yeah, you have to distribute it, because we got four kids. So I don't even know if my kids know this, but I put in the will. And with your help. If there's any dispute at the end of my life, then it needs to be donated. So nothing gets the kids get nothing if they don't if there's any dispute. And I thought that was that was brilliant to add, because then, you know, hopefully, they won't dispute any of the assets remaining. But But what it speaks to your point, having a plan for what happens so that there is no, there's less friction is great. It's great planning. So case number three, older physician wants to sell their practice and exit. Kids are older, they're doing well. Last plan was done 20 years ago in another state, what would be your advice to that physician?

Josh Keleske  22:13  
So I mean, probably an established physician without much experience probably accumulated some meaningful assets. So I'm sure a conversation would would include in a state tax discussion, which we can talk about, as well. But as it relates to this, now, you know, ignoring the tax for a moment, you know, I would treat this at least at a basic level the same as any other client. And I would just, I would ask the really basic question like, What do you want to do when you're gone and learn about at that point, you have adult children, so you can figure out where they're headed. But it could very well be, believe it or not a simple estate plan, if there's no tax planning, you know, we think about where we are in our lives with young children, it's, it's not appropriate to give them assets outright, because they're younger, and they can't legally own anything. But as our clients get older, it's kind of an interesting curve that can take place, where an older client might say, you know, I've got 30 year old children who are well equipped and established, and they're in a great place. So I want them to get assets outright. So that's a, it's an interesting starting point, I will pick it that, in fact, as an example, I work for husband and wife, physicians, they've done extremely well, they're very, very successful. And the apples did not fall far from the tree because their two children are likewise physicians, who are quite successful. In fact, they're, they're more successful than their parents financially. So parents are probably in their mid 60s, their children are in their mid mid to late 30s. And so as a part of their planning, the question I asked was, why were kids? What are they doing financially? And they said, our kids are very wealthy. So the conversations changed a little bit, it was a two part one was Do they really need your assets? So we wanted to really study that. And they concluded that they didn't need them, but they wanted to leave assets to their children. So I instantly thought, well, what if what if your children got sued? Or what if your children were there currently unhappy marriages, but they were to get divorced in the future? What would that look like for your assets? And I asked them a question that didn't, they couldn't answer. So I gave them an answer, which was that their assets could be lost. So mom and dad die, they give their wealth to their children, and if their children get sued, it could could be lost. And again, because they're both both their children are surgeons, we were concerned Well, there could be an asset protection issue. So they're planning actually says there's two components the first for their children is that assets that they leave for their children will be held in lifetime trust, so that a child benefits but a child is not going to lose it if there's a lawsuit or something of that nature. But then the other part was, they said, you know, we really don't think our kids need everything because of their success. So we're gonna skip down and give some money to our grandchildren. They're not and I frankly need it because of their parents, but we want them to know that we love them. And they're important. So they ended up incorporating their grandchildren to their planning. So we we tend to see that as clients accumulate more wealth as they get older, their families expand, and they start to really think about and assess where they want things to go, and who's kind of most mostly benefit. What you added a little twist to the question, and it was the out of state comment. It's worth noting that all states will recognize documents from other jurisdictions. One possible caveat would be Louisiana, which is governed by civil law. So that's kind of the outlier, since it was, it was owned by France forever, it seems like so you could have some nuances there. But other than that, if if a client brings a Georgia will or trust document to Florida, the Florida Statutes are clear, we'll honor that document. But I usually recommend that the that my clients from out of state update at least parts of their documents, so that they're governed by Florida law. And to me, that's kind of a common sense thought it's why would you want a Medical Directive, let's say that's from where I'm from Wisconsin, when you're in Florida, because the statutes are different is kind of a disconnect. So we would incorporate the statutory change, but then really get to the heart of it, what do you really want to do for your children? Where are they at in their lives and build a plan that does that it may be that someone comes from another jurisdiction, and their planning is is accomplished, it's doing what they want? Well, then my goal is to make it Florida based and get out of the way, so we don't have to overdo it.

Coach JPMD  26:34  
Yeah, and so one of the things that happened to me was that someone involved in my will, I can't remember what which part of the will or trust, or, or power of attorney was, he was out of the state. And you said something about the person has to be in state in order to be the executor or what

Josh Keleske  26:52  
Yeah, Florida. So this is not the law in every state before it has got a little nuance. And a last will and testament, we have person who's called the personal representative, or sometimes the terms executor, but it's the person that would carry out a will wishes in a will, in the Florida Statutes have this little nuance that essentially says you can name any family member doesn't matter where they live, and they'll be qualified by statute, or you have to name a Florida resident. So in other words, you know, your best friend, I don't recall where he resides. But you know, he's, if he's not here in Florida, he can't serve. Now, with that being said, Without obviously revealing confidences of what you've done. Leaving money in trust for a child, let's say, which is, you know, it's not a it's not a will, it's a trust. So it's an ongoing tool to hold assets, and you pay those off over time, there isn't a statutory limitation. So we'll have some cases where clients come in and say, I've got this, you know, I practice medicine in Kansas City, and I've got a 30 year, buddy, I trust with my life, you know, I want him to do everything for me, we will have to put the brakes on it with one role, which is the executive role, but he may be wonderful, on a healthcare directive on a power of attorney to manage daily or during life decisions and even manage a trust for a child after someone passes. But we would have that that interesting limitation. I know, that's not the law in other states, I just I think it's kind of an interesting nuance that we have here in Florida.

Coach JPMD  28:26  
So so I know, we've mentioned the word trust a lot. And without even defining, I think you've defined it through how you've discussed it. But what is the importance of having a trust? I guess, what's the difference between that trust and a will, some people may or may not know that difference? And I know I didn't when when we first started so.

Josh Keleske  28:44  
So I mean, it's interesting to know, both of those have been around for for centuries. But will wills are really a starting point and estate planning. Wills, last wills, let's clarify last will last will and testament is designed to create the legal roadmap for a disposition of a person's assets. It really only covers assets that are in that are individually owned, that have no beneficiary designation. And, and the point of a will or how wills would work rather, is that after I die, let's say if I have a bank account in my name, we have to figure out how to get it out of my name and give it get it to my beneficiary. And so the will explains how that's done. But in all states, wills are governed by a probate process, which is essentially a judge overseeing the executor or personal representative, who will have legal authority through probate to collect an account that's in my name, and then follow the wishes inside of the will.

Coach JPMD  29:43  
So the Will you said is of assets that you own personally, does that include an insurance policy? Or so house a car and…

Josh Keleske  29:51  
Yeah, it's any individually owned asset that has no beneficiary. So if you have a certain you know, having a retirement account is an individual asset. But if you have a beneficiary designated on that account, that beneficiary designation is it rules the day, so it doesn't come into a will. So you know, the classic assets, you know, you said is a home your home, if it's just in your name, a bank account, it's just in your name and brokerage account just in your name. So if we have that type of asset, so an individually owned asset with no beneficiary designation, wills are very good tools to transition from a deceased person to that person's beneficiaries. The significant downside is that wills are governed by probate, that court process of retitling. And, you know, unfortunately, probate gets a has a bit of a bad reputation. But generally, I can tell you because we do a lot of probate work, it doesn't have to be overly complicated, but it is definitely a process, which means it definitely takes time and there's an there's a cost element. And so as clients accumulate more wealth, we will oftentimes talk about a revocable trust, or sometimes we call it a living trust, as an alternative to a will. And the basic premise behind a trust is that if a trust owns assets while we're living, and I'll have to define who's in a trust in a moment, but if a trust owns assets while we're living, at the time of death, the transition plan is outside of probate. So in a in a typical trust a revocable trust, there's there's three parties, there's the grantor who makes the trust, there's the trustee who manages the trust. And then there's also the beneficiary. So who gets the benefit in a typical revocable trust, by statute we’re allowed to be all three. So I could create a revocable trust while I'm living, where I'm the trustee and the beneficiary, and I could then take my individual bank account and put it into the trust while I'm living. And so at the moment of my death, I can sort of mythically pass the baton of control to my wife as a trustee, who is unsupervised by a court to play out the trust plan. So it essentially is an a substitute for a will, where we avoid a probate process to make things very efficient. When we think about what we started with, with a brand new doctor, who is just out of school, you know, I know medical schools unbelievably expensive, so they probably have a ton of debt. And their income potential is great, but they may not have a lot of assets. That type of a client in my mind doesn't need to spend money on a trust, they should just get a will. Let's cover the basics. And then as they accumulate assets that would be subject to probate, we can transition from the will estate plan to one that's that's centered on a revocable trust.

Coach JPMD  32:49  
Yeah, that's so good. Actually clears it up in my mind as well, maybe I didn't understand it as well, when I was doing it. So I appreciate that. And so you know, what you're telling everyone here is that we everyone needs a plan, regardless of whether you're a young doctor or an old doctor, or someone retiring. And I think it's a smart way to smart way to go. And so how do we find you.

Josh Keleske  33:13  
So I'm not sure how this will, how you how you put this out, but I mean, my websites trustedcounselors.com, I'm in Tampa, but I'm very blessed. I've got clients all over the state, thank God for that. COVIDs made things interesting, because we've we've discovered that we can serve extremely well, in a remote setting, I was a little concerned couple years ago, or a year and a half ago when COVID kicked in, that we would have a challenge because as you you know, face to face time that we've had, is highly productive is a wonderful way to serve. But it's not the only way to serve. So you could certainly go to our website, give us a call or phone numbers 813-254-0044. And I'm certainly happy to have a conversation at a minimum just to give some of your listeners ideas of what planning could look like, as you know, I like to be very free with my time I like to educate. I think that's really the secret to being a good attorney is to think about how we educate our clients one client at a time so that they can make good informed decisions.

Coach JPMD  34:17  
That's, that's great. And we'll have your information also in the show notes. And I so thank you for being part of the practice and possible podcast and we wish you great success in your journey.

Josh Keleske  34:27  
I appreciate that.

Coach JPMD  34:28  
And it's wonderful to have you on our team and my team. And and just also as a side note, Josh did include some of this information in our free course, online, the learnaboutMedicareadvantage.com. So we thank you for everything you've done for us and have a great weekend.

Josh Keleske  34:44  
And before we go, Jude.

Coach JPMD  34:45  
Yeah.

Josh Keleske  34:45  
As it relates to the course I would strongly encourage your physician clients to take a look at the asset protection piece. We live in an unbelievably litigious society and well I know that all doctors will be diligent in their efforts. Lawsuits happen and so I think a good smart asset protection start to estate planning strategy is critical. So hopefully they'll have that. I know that information is available. And I'm certainly happy to have a conversation specific to asset protection planning with any of your folks as well.

Coach JPMD  35:18  
But thank you again and enjoyed having you.

Josh Keleske  35:21  
Yeah, thank you so much.

Coach JPMD  35:22  
Alright, bye.