#33 Part 1: Who is the DHW Recirculation Detective of Denver? (spoiler alert, it is Mark Eatherton)

DHW recirculation systems can cause a lot of headaches, if not operating properly.  Quick troubleshooting is essential, especially in the multi-family sector.  How do you know what needs to be fixed?  What questions do you need to ask occupants and building managers?  Are all shower valves the same? Do you need x-ray vision?  

In this two-part episode, the guys interview Mark Eatheton.  Mark is a licensed Master Plumber in Colorado and an ICC licensed Master Mechanical Contractor.  He has worked on a variety of troublesome, multi-family DHW recirculation projects over the years and offers his advice to avoid pulling your hair out.  Mark and the team at Advanced Hydronics have worked with Energy Outreach Colorado to reduce energy usage and water waste in many projects across the state.  Starting with occupant surveys, they determine what bothers the residents.  After that, Mark describes the symptoms to look for throughout the building.  To finish, he describes the best path forward with specific control components.  

Thanks for joining us today.

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Transcript

0:04
welcome to ask caleffi  the podcast that
0:07
dives into real life problems that
0:09
plumbing and hvac technicians face in
0:12
the field we're your hosts from the
0:13
Caleffi  tech support team i'm greg tubbs
0:16
and i'm dan ferkus welcome we look
0:18
forward to sharing some stories from our
0:20
tech calls and using our background and
0:22
expertise to make your days a little
0:24
easier
0:25
[Music]
0:29
hey there welcome back to the ask caleffi
0:31
podcast greg tubbs coming at you from
0:33
beautiful milwaukee wisconsin how we
0:34
doing dan i'm doing great today greg
0:37
doing great i'm excited because we have
0:39
a great guest today we do have a great
0:40
guest today we have mark etherton
0:46
yeah mark has been well we've been lucky
0:49
enough to have mark help us with i think
0:51
believe three coffee with caleffis  now
0:54
um he's got a ton of knowledge
0:56
on troubleshooting domestic research
0:59
systems and i think at one point he did
1:00
uh you know shared a live example of of
1:03
us a system that he helped service and
1:06
correct yeah so welcome mark
1:09
greetings from denver colorado how are
1:11
you guys thank you wonderful
1:14
how's the weather out there
1:16
fantastic yeah um i i'm not a a big
1:19
believer in climate change because
1:21
there's never been a time when climate
1:23
has helped still
1:24
but uh this trump this winter has been
1:26
extremely dry and warm so it's conducive
1:28
to me doing construction work which is
1:30
fine yeah we'll come back right yeah
1:32
certainly will
1:34
so today we're going to talk about
1:36
domestic hot water research systems in
1:38
particular troubleshooting trouble
1:40
systems yeah that's a wonderful program
1:44
that i have been involved with quite
1:46
heavily and it was not really by choice
1:48
we do a lot of commercial boiler
1:50
retrofits for an organization here in
1:52
colorado called energy outreach colorado
1:55
who is responsible for distributing
1:57
department of
1:59
energy funds for upgrades in subsidized
2:02
housing
2:03
and when we're done going in and
2:05
retrofitting boilers and providing them
2:07
with new domestic hot water generators
2:10
we inherit whatever problems
2:12
were in that building to begin with and
2:14
most of these buildings are fraught with
2:16
problems
2:17
and it's been that way from day one so
2:20
management just basically has a tendency
2:22
to blow it off and discount it to
2:25
disgruntled residents and
2:27
in reality there are real issues in the
2:29
field and once we get involved they
2:32
realize that we have solutions so they
2:34
ask us to come in and do evaluations on
2:36
the system and fortunately we have had
2:38
access to the wonderful caleffi series
2:40
116
2:42
thermal setters that have
2:44
changed our world and their world and
2:46
has resulted in complaints going away
2:49
energy bills going down water and sewage
2:51
bills going down and a whole lot of
2:53
happy people that's that's awesome i
2:55
mean that's that's kind of a common
2:58
theme whenever you're talking
3:00
plumbing or heating
3:02
is to be able to listen to
3:04
the customer or the residents of the
3:07
facility as to what's going on you know
3:09
that was it was always a big thing to be
3:11
able to help
3:12
narrow down an issue and troubleshoot it
3:14
yeah you know you mentioned you
3:16
mentioned going in and doing a retrofit
3:18
and how you inherit the problems of that
3:20
building and boy isn't that the truth
3:22
greg and i both coming out of the
3:23
contractor's side we we know that very
3:26
extensively once you touch it it's yours
3:29
you own it yep yeah absolutely so i
3:32
think greg's right being able to get in
3:34
are you able to get in and talk to the
3:35
tenants or do you just working with we
3:38
are building
3:40
we're different uh most contractors
3:42
don't do what we do we do our due
3:44
diligence we want to know what kind of
3:46
problems we're inheriting in the first
3:47
place
3:48
and so when we go in to do our surveys
3:51
you know we have to go in and as an
3:52
example we do a baseboard survey and
3:55
then we do that cross comparison to see
3:57
how many btus per square foot per hour
3:58
we're going to deliver to the building
4:00
to make sure that that's within a
4:01
reasonable value
4:02
and if it's not we question it and start
4:05
asking questions of the residents about
4:06
comfort so is it comfortable in here
4:08
well yeah it's okay until it gets cold
4:10
outside and then you don't want to get
4:12
anywhere near the outside windows okay
4:13
well is it infiltration or is it like a
4:15
baseboard so we'll do our due diligence
4:18
and do the load calculations but as a
4:20
part of our survey we ask them about hot
4:22
water so how's your domestic hot water
4:26
well it's okay at times or
4:28
good god i haven't had hot water in this
4:30
apartment since i've lived here and
4:31
management has told me that's the way
4:32
it's always been so it's normal
4:35
so yeah we do ask questions
4:38
and
4:38
we don't discount what management says
4:41
because management
4:43
is in a position where
4:44
if it's proven that they have a problem
4:46
within their building that they didn't
4:47
address they can get trouble from hud
4:49
and from ownership and different things
4:51
so they usually mask those problems
4:54
they'll say yeah that woman always
4:55
complains well maybe it's a legitimate
4:58
complaint maybe it's not right in some
5:00
cases it's not i mean you've got to kind
5:02
of take it with a grain of salt
5:04
i was an apartment complex
5:06
one of the first ones that we applied
5:08
the kalashi products in that the
5:10
maintenance manager said
5:12
i'm going to have to let you go in there
5:13
because she's got a restraining order
5:15
against me
5:16
and i said do i need to tie a rope
5:17
around my waist in case i need to be
5:19
retrieved
5:20
no no i said she might kill you but she
5:23
won't eat you
5:24
[Laughter]
5:26
that's always scary oh yeah it's it's
5:29
always fun
5:31
so you have to take it into
5:32
consideration you know i mean is this
5:34
person being reasonable and
5:36
you ask open-ended questions and let
5:38
them answer and if all the answers keep
5:40
coming back into the same kind of point
5:42
of direction then there's obviously the
5:44
problem there it's and it also it's it's
5:47
education is a part to the management
5:49
people too because they've got a person
5:51
that's answering the phone at the front
5:52
desk that receives nothing but flack
5:55
yeah and so she's not going to pay a
5:57
whole lot of attention to what it is
5:58
that they're complaining about they're
5:59
just complaining
6:01
and she's going to turn it over to
6:02
maintenance and maintenance is going to
6:04
go up and waive the magic wand to do
6:05
whatever they have to to try to satisfy
6:07
the tenant
6:08
and in reality they could be helping
6:10
maintenance by saying what unit are you
6:13
in
6:14
when does this problem occur
6:15
is it always constant or does it only
6:18
occur between six and eight a.m or
6:20
between four and five pm and you at
6:22
least get the ability to be able to
6:23
establish a pattern
6:25
of complaints and where is this
6:27
complaint coming from is there a whole
6:29
stack of apartments that are making the
6:31
same complaint or is it random
6:33
throughout or is it only the top floor
6:35
and it basically helps us do our
6:37
troubleshooting and avoids us having to
6:39
go in and knock on people's doors and
6:41
try to simulate conditions
6:43
under non-load conditions which you know
6:46
that's that's the scenario
6:48
is you're going to be showing up there
6:50
and you're going to be looking for a
6:51
problem that only occurs during a period
6:53
certain period of time
6:55
so when you're standing there at 10
6:56
o'clock in the morning you've got plenty
6:58
of hot water it's not an issue but if
7:00
you were there between 6 and 8 a.m
7:02
during peak loading right then you may
7:04
see a completely different scenario so
7:06
it helps to ask questions you've got to
7:08
go in with an open mind a bright
7:10
flashlight
7:11
and basically see what you can see
7:15
and a lot of the stuff is invisible you
7:17
know how is the system piped was it
7:19
piped parallel reverse return parallel
7:21
direct return
7:23
is it paramedic return
7:24
is the return on the top floor is the
7:26
return on the bottom floor
7:28
um you know it's there's a whole lot of
7:30
variables and
7:32
nobody to my knowledge has x-ray vision
7:35
and uh infrared comes pretty close to
7:37
that but still you don't know when
7:39
you're looking at a hot spot behind the
7:40
wall is that a supply pipe or a return
7:43
it requires a little bit of
7:44
investigation in the field to get
7:46
yourself familiarized always try to find
7:48
some blueprints first
7:49
and there's no guarantee that the
7:51
blueprints that you get are as built
7:53
right contractor may not have installed
7:55
what was designed in the first place but
7:57
that's the contractor's job to go in and
8:00
look at the systems see how it's set up
8:01
see how it's laid out
8:03
start asking questions getting answers
8:05
and determining what the nature of these
8:07
complaints are
8:09
that's a very that's a very important
8:11
step up front with any project
8:14
especially if you're a contractor going
8:15
in to take over a project or to take on
8:18
a building or or quote a replacement
8:20
project i mean it's easy to go in there
8:22
and look at what they have and
8:24
quote light for like but boy to take
8:26
that
8:27
step up front and do your due diligence
8:30
to talk to the tenants and
8:32
and kind of learn how that building's
8:34
performing before you get into it i mean
8:37
that that's a really critical first step
8:40
it is and you know it's a matter of
8:42
being
8:43
complete in your job and you know we get
8:46
done with our survey
8:48
and we start talking to the folks at
8:50
eeoc then we say you know what there's
8:51
other problems within this building that
8:53
you're not addressing and here is what
8:55
they are they may not have even
8:57
discovered them they may not even even
9:00
discover them yet or be aware that
9:02
they're there
9:03
now they're being masked by management
9:05
management doesn't want to admit that
9:06
they have any kind of issues well it's
9:08
going to cost the money i think that
9:10
they're yeah that it's perfect and
9:12
that's the thing is it's not costing
9:14
them any money it's it's this is money
9:16
that's coming from the federal
9:17
government to help
9:18
these subsidized properties increase
9:20
their efficiency but they still don't
9:21
want to admit that they have an
9:23
imperfect world
9:25
so they're always you know oh
9:26
there's no problems in this building and
9:28
then when you go talk to the residents
9:29
they're like oh god yeah there's all
9:31
kinds of problems in this building right
9:33
and if you ask maintenance maintenance
9:35
is more likely to give you a true answer
9:37
because they really don't care they just
9:38
want to get these problems solved so
9:40
their phone quits ring
9:42
right they're the ones that have to take
9:43
that tenant call so they want to get the
9:45
problem solved they're more apt to
9:46
probably share the issues
9:49
with you where ownership doesn't may not
9:51
necessarily always want to hear that
9:53
yeah
9:54
right
9:55
i was going to say to do that up front
9:56
so that when you are done with the
9:58
replacement you're not dealing with the
10:00
issues on the back side and because then
10:03
they can be presumed from ownership that
10:05
you create at this
10:07
sure yeah and you know you just we
10:10
mentioned you touched it last you own it
10:12
and we don't want our phone to ring
10:13
either so we want to make sure that we
10:15
do as much due diligence as we possibly
10:17
can and it's it's amazing what we're
10:19
seeing in the field as it pertains to
10:21
these domestic hot water supply and
10:23
circulation return systems i was called
10:26
out on an emergency
10:27
active leak in a mechanical room this
10:29
week on a job that we had just done a
10:31
total retrofit of
10:33
and got in there and saw that it was the
10:35
circulation return
10:36
and had a pen hold a couple of inches
10:39
after a fitting
10:41
and i asked the maintenance man i said
10:42
do you have pinhole leaks springing up
10:43
in your building and he said everywhere
10:46
he said only on the smaller lines and i
10:49
said only under domestic hot water he
10:50
said correct
10:51
and i said that's hydraulic erosion
10:53
corrosion
10:54
and i said the best example of hydraulic
10:56
erosion corrosion is the grand canyon
10:59
and i said you do not want the grand
11:00
canyon your piping distribution system
11:02
no way he goes you got a solution and i
11:04
said absolutely we do
11:06
i said give me the solution i will go to
11:08
management i will get the money we'll
11:10
get it taken care of in 2022. and you
11:12
know these maintenance men
11:14
and as i took this fitting and the pipe
11:16
out and i handed it to them i said they
11:17
don't make them like they used to
11:19
and he laughed and he goes that's what
11:21
my plumber said and i said yeah i know i
11:23
said they actually make them better than
11:24
they used to
11:28
yeah so this is an issue of hydraulic
11:30
erosion it's you know a pump running
11:31
constantly
11:33
uh hot water has a tendency to be
11:34
erosive anyway because it's
11:36
that's its job right and uh basically
11:39
you start spinning little pinhole leaks
11:42
a couple of inches after elbows and we
11:45
know it's hydraulic erosion we cut the
11:47
pipe apart we split it in half you see a
11:49
v-shaped track
11:51
and you remember that horses always walk
11:52
upstream so you know what direction of
11:54
water was flowing through there the
11:56
other thing that we're seeing is flux
11:58
corrosion
11:59
the old
12:00
non-water soluble fluxes that were
12:02
petroleum-based
12:04
are starting to raise their ugly head
12:06
and that they're causing some holes in
12:08
some of the copper tubing um
12:11
you know it's just an issue that you
12:12
have to address it's been addressed and
12:14
then that we were using water soluble
12:16
fluxes now
12:17
that theoretically wash out and won't
12:19
stay there forever to eat the pipe
12:21
but uh you know it's it's the nature of
12:24
the beast a lot of older systems out
12:26
there that are in dire need of help
12:28
uh they were not piped
12:30
in a manner that is conducive to flow i
12:32
think i've seen one system
12:34
that was actually piped parallel reverse
12:36
return that didn't require any balancing
12:38
at all
12:39
and it was still running excess velocity
12:41
most of them are pipe parallel direct
12:43
return
12:44
as we all know water is like my
12:46
ex-brother-in-law wet lazy and stupid
12:52
why he's my ex brother-in-law right
12:54
and you basically have to tell it what
12:56
you wanted to do and when you wanted to
12:58
do it sure so by putting these thermal
13:00
balancing valves in here then you
13:01
basically straighten the system out
13:03
completely
13:04
it eliminates excess flow rates and
13:07
erosion it won't reverse the damage it's
13:09
already been done but it will stop any
13:11
more damage going forward
13:13
and uh gets rid of all those complaints
13:15
of people complaining but
13:16
the nature of the beast is such that
13:19
it's it's you've got to look at it as a
13:21
package as a whole
13:23
and most plumbers know what they need to
13:24
know they just don't know how to apply
13:26
it sure and hydraulics in a domestic hot
13:30
water circulation return are just
13:32
exactly like the hydraulics and the
13:34
closed loop heating system
13:35
but they don't look at it that way
13:38
so the first thing that happens when
13:39
somebody complains about a problem is
13:40
they put in a bigger pump
13:42
right the little pump did a little good
13:44
a lot of pump will do a lot of more
13:46
cowbell compounds yeah it compounds the
13:49
erosion problem you start springing more
13:51
leaks and more of the returns right and
13:54
yeah the complaints subsided a little
13:55
bit but it's still an issue so you've
13:57
got to look at the system as a whole
13:59
you've got to record the nature of the
14:01
complaint
14:02
and the complaints that you hear in the
14:04
field
14:05
are going to vary all over the place and
14:07
you've got to stop and think about what
14:08
it is that they're saying when it
14:10
occurred where it occurred
14:12
and were there any similar occurrences
14:14
within that same particular riser stack
14:16
and if there is and you start at the top
14:18
and start working your way down
14:20
until you get to the floor that doesn't
14:21
have the problem
14:23
and believe it or not you've discovered
14:24
the problem that's where the problem is
14:26
you've got a cross-connected shower
14:28
valve there's certain types
14:30
of cartridge shower valves
14:32
that will cross connect between the hot
14:34
and cold water line
14:35
so as people are trying to draw hot
14:37
water upstream or above that particular
14:40
cross connection the cold cross connects
14:42
into the hot and dilutes the hot water
14:44
that's going up into that riser so you
14:46
could have 130 degree fahrenheit water
14:49
on the first floor and when you get to
14:51
the second floor you've still got 130
14:53
degrees but when you get to the third
14:54
floor you can't get more than 90.
14:57
that's because it's mixing on the second
14:59
floor right and once you determine how
15:02
to look at this stuff and how to test
15:03
for it then you can eliminate it and
15:05
there's
15:06
probably
15:07
two or three different types of
15:08
cartridge valves that are on the market
15:11
that have an issue moen is one and moen
15:13
has admitted to it openly they were
15:15
giving away cartridges for a long time
15:17
trying to take care of this issue okay
15:20
i can't remember the names of the other
15:21
ones but they're older most of the new
15:24
systems that are installed have check
15:25
valves on both this the cold and then
15:27
hot supply going into the valve so it
15:29
eliminates any possibility of cross
15:31
connection the cross connection could
15:33
still occur
15:34
but it's not going to allow any back
15:36
flow or cross feeding from cold into the
15:38
hot water mains themselves so the
15:40
problem has pretty well been negated in
15:43
any newer systems but in some of the
15:44
older systems you'll have a
15:46
cross-connected valve and you find this
15:49
by
15:50
recording where it is the people are
15:51
complaining
15:52
and then look at the map of the property
15:54
and go oh yeah these are all in the same
15:56
riser so you know that that problem is
15:58
coming from down below
16:00
but you may get people on the top floor
16:02
that are spread out horizontally through
16:04
the whole thing that are complaining of
16:06
never being able to get any hot water
16:09
and the engineering department or the
16:11
maintenance people are like well let's
16:12
turn it up so they turn the water supply
16:15
temperature up trying to compensate for
16:16
this when in reality
16:18
there's a failed check valve
16:21
on the circulation return which is
16:23
allowing cold water to run backwards
16:26
through that circulation return
16:27
and at the top floor of the mixing hot
16:29
and cold water in an effort to try to
16:31
give them a constant common temperature
16:33
relating to the nature of the complaint
16:35
and where the complaints coming from
16:37
is going to give you some guidance in
16:39
where you need to look and that's one of
16:40
the very first things that i check
16:43
when i go into a mechanic room i like to
16:44
be there during design conditions
16:47
so that i can use my hands and my eyes
16:49
and my ears to listen to the system and
16:50
feel and see what's going on
16:52
and the first thing i will do is grab
16:53
the circulation return and if the
16:55
circulation return is ice cold i know
16:58
i've got cold water charging backwards
17:00
through that circuit turn and going to
17:01
the top floor
17:02
and at the top floor they've got hot and
17:04
cold water coming from two different
17:06
positions
17:07
and it will also result in a water
17:09
shower temperature that's like a roller
17:11
coaster ride starts out hot goes cold
17:14
goes hot goes cold and a poor consumer
17:16
is standing there the whole time
17:18
making adjustments to their shower valve
17:20
well that one's a dead giveaway there's
17:22
a circulation return it's back charging
17:24
and people will say well but the pump is
17:27
running it shouldn't be able to do that
17:28
well yeah it shouldn't but it is we've
17:31
actually got absolutely capable we've
17:33
actually gotten calls similar to that
17:35
where
17:36
they think it's the mixing valve that's
17:38
doing that
17:39
so you know we go through everything
17:41
checking making sure they have
17:44
the right temperature coming into it
17:46
is is it you know is it leaving at the
17:48
temperature you know it's supposed to be
17:50
set to
17:52
if you've got a huge building minimum
17:54
flow yeah are you meeting minimum flow
17:56
requirements that's another one that
17:57
causes a roller coaster ride like that
18:00
but a failed check valve that's another
18:02
another indicator that
18:04
you know that that's the problem
18:07
and this is where some of the tools that
18:09
i use come in very handy i mean an
18:11
infrared camera is invaluable in my
18:13
position
18:14
however you have to also understand that
18:17
you need to understand what you're
18:18
looking at if you're looking at a shiny
18:20
copper pipe with an infrared camera and
18:22
you're using a little crosshairs in the
18:24
middle to see what the temperature is
18:25
it's going to give you a falsely low
18:27
reading so if you put a
18:30
piece of blue tape just painters tape
18:32
onto that pipe
18:33
and then put your crosshairs on that
18:35
then you'll see a true surface
18:36
temperature because it's the emissivity
18:38
of that pipe that's affecting what the
18:40
infrared camera reads but one thing that
18:43
i use that is very handy is a data
18:45
logger
18:46
and i've got data loggers that vary
18:48
between i think i've got four station
18:50
and up to a 16 station unit that i could
18:53
use that i could basically strap these
18:55
sensors all over the system and let it
18:58
run
18:58
let it go through its normal daily cycle
19:01
and then pull it up on the computer and
19:02
take a look at it and see what goes on
19:04
with the trends so if the supply hot
19:06
water temperature coming from the comp
19:08
the tempering valve is a constant
19:10
it's not a mixing valve issue and when
19:12
i'm looking at the circulation return if
19:14
the temperature is going up and down
19:16
and those downs correlate to a peak load
19:19
period then i know i've got water
19:21
charging backwards the circulation
19:22
return going to the point of use
19:25
so a data logger is an invaluable tool
19:28
and it's something that once the
19:29
consumer looks at the spreadsheet that
19:31
you set up and and turns it out
19:34
they go oh wow holy cow i had no idea
19:37
that was occurring
19:38
now the same thing with the infrared
19:39
camera
19:41
when we use the infrared camera
19:43
we'll go into a radiant floor heating
19:44
project that was not insulated from blow
19:47
that the consumer is complaining about
19:50
a problem with the uh space heating
19:53
system not working correctly on the main
19:55
floor and causing overheating in the
19:56
basement when you show them the floor
19:58
joist bays that are glowing like hot
20:00
rods they go all right well my
20:03
contractor told me heat rises okay well
20:06
tell your contractor to go back and fire
20:08
his fifth grade teacher who told him the
20:10
heat rises because radiant energy
20:12
travels omnidirectionally including
20:14
downward through the path of leaks
20:15
resistance you need insulation if you
20:18
put insulation in there your basement
20:20
will cool down and your main floor will
20:22
heat up like you want it to so these are
20:24
tools that when you show them to the
20:26
consumer they go i had no idea that
20:28
there was even the ability to be able to
20:30
see this and yes i can see it and yeah
20:31
you're right there is a problem we do
20:33
need to address it so it lessens the
20:35
chances of them blowing you off going
20:37
yeah you're just trying to get into my
20:38
pocket and waste my money right sure
20:40
yeah it builds credibility with the
20:42
customer i mean it shows that you know
20:44
you're doing your due diligence and
20:46
and gathering your information and the
20:48
solutions you provide
20:49
it gives you something to go back on
20:52
later to to show
20:54
you know
20:54
definite improvement in their in their
20:56
system performance
20:58
yeah
20:59
yeah building credibility with the
21:00
customer is is a big deal it's going to
21:03
ensure that it is you know you're you're
21:05
going to come back there and have their
21:07
repeat business hopefully you don't have
21:08
to come back there too often but they're
21:10
going to tell a lot of other people
21:12
about you that you do good work and
21:14
maybe you come at a cost but good work
21:16
does come at a cost just like good
21:18
products
21:19
it comes back to pay you in space um as
21:22
an example our first problem case down
21:24
in denver that we had to deal with the
21:26
health department was involved and i
21:29
mean they were standing there breathing
21:30
down our necks going
21:32
this has got to be fixed today or we're
21:34
going to shut this building down and
21:36
you're going to have to walk all the
21:36
residents to a hotel wow i look at
21:38
management's attention in a hurry yes
21:41
and so we got involved with them and we
21:43
said okay let me drag you through the
21:44
system and show you what's going on here
21:46
i said it's not a source of supply issue
21:48
it's a distribution issue and it's not
21:50
easy to fix but we we will address it
21:53
so drag them through and show them what
21:55
was going on at the end of this little
21:57
tour he says would you guys be
21:59
interested in teaching our inspectors
22:01
what heck yes absolutely so we brought
22:04
them into our classroom here we trained
22:06
them we showed them what hot water
22:07
heating systems consist of supply
22:09
distribution repair mixing all that
22:12
stuff
22:13
and said you know you guys can't fix it
22:15
but you need to understand that these
22:16
are the issues that these people are
22:17
dealing with and uh resulted in a whole
22:20
bunch more work
22:21
from the city of denver anytime their
22:23
health inspectors get into a problem
22:24
they send us yeah yeah you're their
22:26
go-to guy and that's fantastic so
22:29
that works great plus also the consumer
22:31
you've got two different commercial
22:32
customers that are nationwide they
22:35
manage properties coast to coast border
22:37
border and they have problems and guess
22:40
who they call to get those problems
22:41
solved i mean they're willing to pay us
22:43
an exorbitant amount of money per hour
22:45
you go up and take a look at it they'll
22:47
pay our expenses etc and we go and look
22:50
at the system as a whole figure out what
22:52
the problems are make recommendations
22:54
meet with their plumbing contractors
22:56
tell them what they need to do explain
22:57
it to them make sure that everybody
22:59
understands what's going on
23:01
and they apply the fix and the problems
23:03
go away we have a happy customer and a
23:06
happy consumers your technicians in the
23:09
field i'm sure really appreciate the
23:12
amount of upfront work that you do in
23:14
investigating the projects before you're
23:16
sending them in you know i can they do i
23:18
can imagine being you know a service
23:20
being one of your service tax and going
23:22
into a a problem job and
23:25
you know being looked at like you know
23:27
it's a problem you created because not
23:29
enough due diligence and preparation
23:31
went in on the front end
23:33
to make the corrections so that your
23:35
project is successful yeah they they uh
23:38
they stop you and they go nobody else
23:40
has ever asked you these questions
23:41
before well number one they probably
23:44
didn't know that they were supposed to
23:45
be asking that questions because they're
23:46
looking for a quote-unquote problem sure
23:49
and you know there's their quick easy
23:51
fix as well let's put in a bigger pump
23:54
you know that's that's not always the
23:56
solution
23:57
seems to always seems to always be their
23:59
first attempt but not always the
24:01
solution first attempt in the first and
24:03
the the first thing to cause a problem
24:05
down the road with erosion sure that's
24:07
what they know how to do yeah you know
24:09
that's that's the easy fix in their eyes
24:11
as well let's put a rigger pump on there
24:12
and see what happens
24:14
and that's the problem is they can't
24:15
quote unquote see what's happening right
24:18
and uh you know the complaints may
24:20
subside a little bit but the problems
24:21
are still there and the only way to
24:23
address it correctly is to go through
24:24
and thoroughly balance the system out
24:26
eliminate any cross connections
24:28
eliminating any backflow occurring
24:30
within a system and
24:33
basically set it up so that it's going
24:34
to work like it's supposed to yeah yeah
24:36
i know there's a lot of systems that
24:38
aren't balanced at all or definitely not
24:40
balanced properly
24:43
but i also believe there's probably a
24:45
lot of cross connections out there that
24:47
aren't discovered
24:49
well there is and some of them were
24:51
inadvertently set up i had a call this
24:53
last week from one of our manufacturer
24:55
reps
24:56
and he says i've got a prison
24:58
that they are unable to get
25:00
hot water to their showers he said all
25:02
the showers in one place
25:04
and he said but i think i may have
25:06
discovered what it is because he had
25:07
attended one of the cluffy seminars that
25:10
i had uh spoken at okay and he said
25:12
they've got all of these
25:14
mop sinks
25:16
that have a chemical mixing station on
25:18
them there it is where the hot and the
25:19
cold water come together to a common
25:21
point mixed down goes through picks up
25:23
soap goes into the bucket
25:25
and i said are there check valves on the
25:26
cold hot water supply and he said i
25:28
don't think so and i said you just
25:29
discovered your cross connection i said
25:32
have them close at least the hot or the
25:33
cold water valve on every one of those
25:35
valves and see if hot water's restored
25:36
up to showers
25:38
and i have not heard from him so my
25:40
assumption is yep that's where it was
25:41
and that took care of it because it
25:43
hadn't it had been calling back going
25:45
well no that didn't work right yeah
25:47
what's the next step there yeah we had
25:49
we had an interesting tech call come in
25:51
um from a local project to us here in
25:54
wisconsin and it was a hotel
25:56
and they have one of our legio mix
25:58
electronic mixing valves on site and
26:01
it's been in it's been working perfectly
26:03
they've had you know no hot water
26:05
complaints or issues and suddenly the
26:07
contractor got a call of
26:10
you know no hot water or low temperature
26:13
hot water and then the next day he got a
26:15
call again
26:16
and
26:18
they were determining what we were able
26:19
to do because our legio mix has
26:22
data logging yeah it it stores the
26:25
temperature histories you know we're
26:27
able to walk him through that and what
26:28
we determined is every
26:30
it was occurring at six pm and it would
26:33
occur for two hours two hours spread
26:36
around 6 a.m or sorry 6 p.m every day
26:40
and they were determining they
26:41
determined that's when the maintenance
26:43
crews were in there or the cleaning
26:44
crews were in there and they found a
26:46
crop were able to find a cross
26:47
connection because of that but the data
26:49
logging feature in our eligio mix
26:51
electronic mixing valve help discover
26:53
that yeah
26:55
yeah exactly and that's that's where
26:58
data loggers are indispensable and you
27:01
can't be there every minute of every day
27:04
but if you leave a data logger there
27:06
that takes a snapshot every minute then
27:08
you get a really good idea what's going
27:10
on what the trends are and then you know
27:13
as you said listen talk you know what
27:15
happens at six o'clock oh the floor
27:17
maintenance cruise go ahead and start
27:18
working in the hallways
27:21
that's what they related to that yeah
27:22
it's fantastic
27:26
but yeah it's you know there's not too
27:28
much information that you can gather and
27:30
the more information you have
27:32
the more accurate you're going to be in
27:34
going and making recommendations i mean
27:35
we don't only recommend the use of the
27:37
series 116 we also use the the quick
27:40
flow setters
27:41
you know if you've got a split in the
27:43
branch of the hot power supply main then
27:44
you're going to have a split in the
27:45
branches coming back and you want to
27:47
make sure that you keep the water
27:48
velocity within that pipe below an
27:50
erosive velocity and the only way that
27:52
you can do that is to see
27:54
literally what the gallons per minute
27:56
movement is sure well that's going to do
27:59
it for the first part of this episode
28:01
join us again february 8th where we
28:04
continue talking with mark etherton and
28:07
discuss more on issues with domestic hot
28:11
water research systems
28:12
thank you for tuning in if you ever need
28:15
help please feel free to contact our
28:17
tech support team anytime at
28:19
techsupport.us
28:22
calefi.com
28:23
or call us during our business hours at
28:26
7 30 a.m to 4 30 pm
28:29
central time
28:31
at 414-238-2360
28:39
[Music]
28:48
you