Hello and welcome to another episode of the Family Business with the Alyssies. Today it's just Mary and me in the podcast booth. We're talking about things we don't talk about on Sunday, and we recognized how family is everybody's business, and that's why we like to bring you the Family Business Podcast. Again, we're wearing some cool shirts. Thanks to some very dear people in our church that want to help us prepare for the arrival of your first granddaughter.
SPEAKER_02Your first granddaughter.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Our first grandbaby, our family's growing, and we're so excited. Any day now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we're going to actually talk about relationship of marriage and uh husband and wife and marriage and all of that. And Mary, you know, we're sitting here, goodness, 35, we're going to celebrate 35 years of marriage.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, very soon.
SPEAKER_01In October of this year. 35 years. If we didn't do what we're going to talk about doing today, we probably wouldn't be wearing these t-shirts. I promise you we would not. We wouldn't have made it this far. No. Not at all. Um, but here we are, 35 years uh married. Um that uh I think it qualifies us to be able to talk about this particular subject because it's what you did 35 years ago that um is allowed us to get established in what we have ultimately been able to build our lives upon. But here's the whole thought: we're talking about leaving and cleaving, yeah. Two words that we find in a chapter or a verse in the Bible where it talks about that a man should leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one. So we're talking about that.
How does a couple get this mindset that when they get married, there is this cleaving to the spouse in such a way that they leave the connection, at least the emotional connection of the parents or that prior life, whatever that was, right, and become one with their spouse. So uh tell us about your story back in the day.
SPEAKER_02So, well, I met you, I was 19, we got married pretty quickly, and we fell pretty hard and pretty fast, and then I had to leave my ministry family that I was very proud of. And of course, within that time reference, my parents got divorced, so it made it very difficult. But I wanted to run and support and protect my mother, but I'd also made a decision to get married, and in that, it meant I had to leave and cleave. And I have I was married now. I was a wife now, I was a missus now. I'm fortunate to have had a mother who was, you know, she's a product of the 50s. So in that day and age, wives supported their husbands, you know, you they didn't have the struggle uh culturally that we have today. So that was never anything she resented that I didn't rush back to her and she never felt like I owed her anything. She understood the power of me leaving and cleaving. And so, but that did not make it easy because you've all you've ever known when you get married is your mom or your dad, your family, whatever that family situation is. It's all I knew. And I had a twin sister. So it's not just mom and dad, it's siblings too that you're close to. The the culture of your family, the way your family does things. You know, our families may be more sarcastic and we joke, and you marry into a family that's more serious and they they think sarcasm is rude and nasty, and you're like, well, y'all need to lighten up. Sarcasm's fun. So there's a lot that is wrapped up in that leaving and cleaving. It's not just leave your parents and and and don't do what they tell you to do, do what your husband tells you to do or what your wife tells you to do. It's bigger than that. It's a cultural process as well that you really do have to leave and cleave. And um it's not.
SPEAKER_01What is leaving? What is well, first before we go on there? Let's remember you're 19. Yeah. Um, there are some people today in their 20s and 30s that haven't mastered this.
SPEAKER_02It's true.
SPEAKER_01And it it's causing problems in their marriage, or maybe it's keeping them from even stepping into a commitment of marriage because emotionally or physically, they're not willing to leave the influence of the family, the parents, and then cleave. You know, those are two strong words. So what what what's cleaving if we look at that?
SPEAKER_02So I I really was looking it up to really understand that word. I've always thought cleave meant cling, where it does doesn't really mean cling, and I just looked it up here, which everyone could do. This is an easy, easy exercise here. It actually has two meanings that are opposite of each other. And you know the Bible's very specific when it uses words. The words it uses are on purpose, but it says to split or sever something along, especially along a natural line or grain.
SPEAKER_01This is cleave.
SPEAKER_02This is to cleave, split or sever along, especially along
a natural line or grain. Um it even says the large axe his father used to cleave wood for the fire. So there's a precise nature to that word. Okay, there is a that is also a cutting. You leave and then you're cutting into the past to cleave into this new relationship with your spouse. But the other term, which I just think this is so interesting, is that it's either to stick together or split apart. Either to stick together or split apart. So it really is a bigger definition, that word, than what we see. And if we don't do it, because when we started talking about this, I was coming at it from the standpoint of painting a picture of what does it look like if you don't leave and cleave? If you stay and cling. What does that do to the relationship?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because babe, I think um different cultures can, I think Americans do this better and the American culture. It's it's something that they're like ready for you when you get 18. Get out the door, go, go do your own thing. Totally. Certain cultures that are more Hispanic in nature seemingly are holding on to that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, they they want to keep that family bond and to the which we all understand, but sometimes if it's taken to the extreme, um, then it becomes detrimental to the marital relationship. So in this case, in our Latin culture, the father figure, well, the mother figure could be just as strong and the spouse can't leave. Right. There's not that it's a physical leaving. Yeah, they get married, they move in together, they leave the house, but there's an emotional tie or a mental tie that they just can't break away from. And I'll tell you, as a male, being married to you, if all you ever did was bring your dad into the equation.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01It would have drove me crazy. Oh, yeah. You and I wouldn't be here today if you could not leave that influence, good or bad, of your dad.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01I had to be the guy. So you're saying you're some people may be saying, oh, it's so cruel to leave my dad like that and my mom like that. No, it's cruel to your spouse when you don't.
SPEAKER_03It is, Steve.
SPEAKER_01And you and your goal is to move forward and start making your world, uh, your legacy being built, your life being built. And it requires a decision and then a continual action along the way to keep mom and dad in their place as parents that loved you and raised you. But now you become the husband and the wife that your own family needs lead needs. So you have to make that that that cutting, that's right, that slicing. And it's not easy, but you gotta do it, and you can't be guilted by the parent not to do it. That's right. Because that's not right. It's not right, and and parents will do that. I feel I I I see the challenge already that I have. Talk about it. No, come on, that's for me and my counselor. Yep.
SPEAKER_02I am your counselor. No, um, well, you know, the the really processing that cleave word it from the biological, because it says in biology it's it's used as a split apart term. You really are having to intentionally split apart. You have to, it says a man has to leave and split apart from his family. Man and woman, you have to leave and split apart. And when you read it from that perspective of that is your reasonable service in order to have a great relationship, what does that mean? That does not mean you're not going to be with your family,
you're not gonna be over there with your family, you're you're uh cutting them off or any input they have in your life. That is not what it means. But what it means is, especially that first year of marriage, it is so important to split apart, give space, give time, have more pride or as much pride in the family you're building than the family you came from.
SPEAKER_01There you go. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And that's that's not easy, but it's all perception and perspective. You're building something. Something is being made here. You you were born into the family you came from. That was made for you. You didn't do anything. Now you're building something. What you're doing is building what you had for your generation, for your children to come. And without leaving and cleaving, you won't build those wonderful environments of a healthy, fun family that your kids are proud to be a part of. So if you keep looking back to mom and dad, and if you do have parents, oh no, the family, the family, the family, you know, you know, you need to make sure you let him know, honey, that we're important too. And you need to make sure she knows where, well, that's that is divisive, first of all, and it erodes what that young couple needs to build. So, really, the truth is for it to be successful, mom and dad need to back up and give room for the son or the daughter both to leave and cleave to one another.
SPEAKER_01That's not natural. It's not natural for the parent, but it's also why the kid needs it, the young adult needs it, because it's not natural for them.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01You have been in that home all those years, and the influence of that parent has helped you throughout your life, and you've made decisions based on their counsel, and pretty much everything that you are is a result of them. And it's unnatural for you to now cut that and move on. But just a couple of uh phrases that we have used. You know, they talk about cutting the umbilical cord. Yeah, you have to go ahead and get released. Well, it doesn't mean that you're being severed from the source that gave you life to continue life. I mean, it doesn't mean your life's over. It means you just you just severed that source that gave you life for a period, but now you gotta start living on your own.
SPEAKER_02On your own oxygen.
SPEAKER_01They use the other phrase of cutting the apron spur uh strings for the young woman who cannot just leave her mom.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, there are phrases like that because it shows us how hard it is to actually do it.
SPEAKER_02It's so hard.
SPEAKER_01And as a parent, okay, we're we're seeing these things that are coming into our life ever since our our our kids are out of college, getting married, and now having children. I'm glad I can wear this shirt. It's really sweet, and I'm so grateful for the family that did this for us. However, I don't ever want to be the father figure in this family that has to have all the light put on him and outshine my son-in-law, who is the father to Gianna.
SPEAKER_02That you wouldn't have without him.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01So I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy being the Papa and all my friends and all of us at the church. We're gonna celebrate that. But our celebration in life can never be at the expense where Muina feels as though, oh my gosh, here he goes, sucking all the oxygen out of the room. I don't want that.
SPEAKER_03I know you don't.
SPEAKER_01I I want him to be celebrated as much. Absolutely. And I need to let him know that. Yeah, I need to let my daughter know that, who is his wife. So she never feels like, oh, let's give dad papa his time with Gianna. Uh I'm gonna get my time. She's gonna be on tractor. We're gonna do things, shoot some animals. We're gonna get it for me. We're gonna do whatever we can with her. Yeah, and hopefully we'll have the uh alphabet covered. A, B, C, G, D, E, F, G. We'll get to G and have some other kids with grandkids with get the alphabet covered with all of that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you mean other grandkids? Other grandkids, yes, yes. So we'll we'll have plenty.
SPEAKER_01We'll have plenty of lots to have fun with. But I don't ever want it to be about, oh, this has got to be about dad. Because that, or papa in this case, because that could that could put unnecessary pressure on the my daughter, yeah, who is now a wife before she's my daughter.
SPEAKER_02Now she is, that's right.
SPEAKER_01So leaving and cleaving requires even the parent, me, yeah, to help them sever the cord and say, hey, you're good. You deserve the celebration. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you're worried about my ego being, you know, stepped on here, my my my pride. I I that can't happen. So the parent has to help the child, the adult child leave.
SPEAKER_02And and I want to say this it's a painful process. It hurts. It hurts on an emotional level. And it isn't extraordinary people or people that have some extra sense that they were born with to be able to do this difficult thing. It really is just understanding the principle is true, it's real. And if you value it and you operate in it, you will find new life and a new sense of relationship with your grown kids where they want your presence. But when you don't do this, when you don't help them leave and cleave, and you play your part as a as the parents to the possible future grandparents of your children, they're still processing trying to understand what this splitting apart from mom and dad means because it's painful. Anything that has to be birthed that's new, there's pain involved. So it could be that even Stephanie right now, because she got married so quickly, now she'd have a baby so quickly, we've backed up to give them room because we understand the power of leaving and cleaving and we we know we're strong. Um, Chris Moena has an amazing mom and dad that we love and we're so thankful. We feel like it's a gift, what special people they are. But they've been a strong part of his life too. All of our influences are strong in our kids' lives. So sometimes I have to remind Stephanie, hey, this is hard for all of us. We're backing up. Don't misinterpret our leaving and cleaving.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Because we we have to get to this new season of not seeing you as ours anymore. You're not ours anymore. But that's it, hurts to say that, but it's the sweetest thing in the world because we're now, we've just attained a son. Right. You know, Chris's mom and dad have attained a daughter. And as the years roll on, we're doing things right. We're not creating any wedge because we could not leave and cleave. We didn't, we we saw the pain of that as something that we needed to to somehow soothe and come back in strong. And, you know, that's my daughter, and you need to defend us. But no, we we have to die to those things so that what's coming is sweeter. And it's not a it's not a suggestion in the Bible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it's not.
SPEAKER_02It's not a suggestion. No. So is it easy? No. Does it take time? Absolutely, but will it be worth it? Sometimes I can be honest with you, over the years, I've been jealous of my mom and her the comments she'll make about you and how much she loves you. And there's was never a time she used to before. No, in the beginning, she just loved you, and you always talked about how much you loved her, and you guys had a sweet relationship even before you met me and knew me. But throughout all of that, and I go back to her because she came from a generation that truly understood that's what you did. I I tried to send you back. You did try to send me back, and she would not take me back.
SPEAKER_01She said, nope, she's yours. She said, Yeah, that was key for real. That was that was that was uh youth. I I was so upset about something. I said, take her, I'm sending her back. She's like, Nope. You married her, she's yours.
SPEAKER_02She blamed you for not letting you finish raise me. I'm like, Well, what in the world? But what? That's what she always says. I don't uh understand what she means, but anyway, like she she needed another year to teach me to be a wife. So she takes responsibility, I think.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I got it.
SPEAKER_02Whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_02She understood the power and the process of leaving and cleaving, even under the circumstances where she had an empty nest in a year, and my father was gone. Yeah. So you would you talk about hard. But when I would call her because I'd be frustrated about something, and I would start to go there, how mad I was, we'd have some petty, stupid fight over how you wouldn't go get me a Slurpee from 7-Eleven or something childish. Um, you wouldn't let me spend the $20 I wanted to spend and it wasn't fair. My mother never one time sided with me. She was not uh an ear to me.
SPEAKER_01Speak to that, okay?
SPEAKER_02She resisted any time. There was, because she knew you, there was never a time that if I could call my mother and I was really mad and I thought she'll listen to me and I'll have a defense partner in my mother. Never would she ever go there. She'd say, Well, Mary, just know this. I know how you are. And I know how you responded things. Did you do this? Did you say this? And I would get so mad. It's interesting, but I would try again. You know, I would I kept thinking she's gonna be there for me this time, but she never did. She always sided. And you know what? So did your mom. Your mom always sided with me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Even to this day, she will joke. We've been married 35 years, and she'll say, You weren't mean, were you?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You didn't hurt her, did you? She never sides with you. My mother never sides with me. They understand the power because they understand what happens if you don't. Yeah. And that's the point of this conversation. What's the flip side? Don't leave and don't leave. Stay and cling. What does that do to a marriage? I promise you, it destroys it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh, you have to be empowered in our home. Uh, so I can't be bringing my mother always into the home in our conversations and our emotion, uh, whatever that looks like. You you had to get to a place where you felt like, okay, there's no more comparison to uh any woman, mother figure in my life. I couldn't do that. I couldn't look at you and think, well, my mom does it this way. And you couldn't look at me and say, well, my dad does it this way. We we had to remove that, which is part of the leaving. Yeah. That's good for them, and that was good for us being able to grow up, but that's not that can't come into our lives here. I just feel there
are some couples that I I see the outside influence still from parents, and it's just a little unhealthy.
SPEAKER_02It's a lot unhealthy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I see some young people, quite frankly, that are in their late 20s, early 30s, that they won't give themselves permission to take the big plunge with another girl or guy because they just can't leave that home yet, that mother and father's influence. And some parents are bad. They're bad at pushing the kid out of the nest. Oh, yeah. They're bad at it. It's true. Uh, they want to hold on to him, their ego needs it. That's that's not healthy.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Um, we've had to be very intentional. This is part of our discussion. The reason we can talk about it in the podcast booth here is because this is something that we have processed, continue to process. Still deal with. We we counsel each other in it, we pick up. By mistakes, we learn a lot from what other people are doing and what other people aren't doing. We we're monitoring this along the way. We are also in an environment where we're helping people through some of their their the baggage, the excess baggage of their life. And they uh are dealing with that baggage, which some of it comes from them inability to really leave the influence of the parent. And that that's we have to deal with it later.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Where the there's so much friction in the home, in the in the marriage, because if one of the people didn't break.
SPEAKER_02There's very few reasons couples have irreconcilable differences. It's it's usually I could not get along with his mom. His mom had such influence in him, and I was the second woman. I was never the first, or you know, her mom or dad. That's always a big one. You know, you could almost be a prophet if you're if you're a marriage counselor, because there's not, there's not a whole big range of issues. We all have the same issues in our marriage. That creates a breaking point. And this is, I would say, at the core of it. Maybe um sexual issues might be one where the love is just not there or, but irreconcilable, nine times out of ten, it's a parental figure that either wouldn't let go or the spouse would not tell their parent, this is the way it is, my husband's the king of this castle. Um and I I think we try to stay forever a kid. And when we get married, when we are with our spouse, to see ourselves as a kid is a childish thing. And the Bible tells us to put away childish things. So that's another podcast, but I think that it's when when young
women say, Well, what do I do? How do I honor my husband and my father? You that's not even a choice.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so Father's Day. Mother's Day. All right. I had to say to my children, our household guys, Mother's Day is about mom. Exactly. I don't need them going out and getting grandmommy or grandma a gift on Mother's Day.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Their responsibility is to get something for you as their mom.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01Now, my mom. This isn't the day that I go out and buy you a gift. That's right.
SPEAKER_02I'm not your mom.
SPEAKER_01You're not my mom. This is the day on Mother's Day. I have to do something to honor my mom.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01But there's some family dynamics that'll go on from Mother's Day, Father's Day. They make it about the grandparent.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01We all got to get together. She's got to be happy. He's got to be happy. And that's not right. No. To where then the the younger, the daughter that's now her mother, is being overshadowed by that.
SPEAKER_02By the mother or the grandmother.
SPEAKER_01Or both. Okay, birthdays, that's when we're going to honor the grandparent. That's right. That's it. My mom's going to be celebrated coming up in May. We're going to have a great time with my mom. That's uh sh at the end of May. But at Mother's Day, I'm going to take care of her. She's going to be part of the celebration that we have for both of you. But my kids are going to wake up and they're going to come to you. They're going to have the card. They're going to have the gift.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, that's how we do it at Father's Day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We would hang out with my dad, but that was up to me to honor my dad.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01But in my household, my kids honor me as the father. That's right. And so that just something as simple as that helps the kids understand and the spouse, listen, you're my priority, baby.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01I married you. That's right. My mom would not even want that to be confusing. She would never allow, your mom would never allow us saying, we're going to make it about Mary. My dad wouldn't make it, wouldn't allow us to make it just about him. He would want to make sure I'm the father being honored in my home, and my mom would, you're the wife, the mom being honored in our home. That in itself was very intentional. Right. Because you don't want to wait till they're gone.
SPEAKER_02No. And you don't want your kids to always be lumping in grandma and grandpa to honoring mom and dad. Just do it on their birthday. There has to be, especially if that's a real point of tension in your marriage and in your family. Be mindful of that. And I know for us, I remember when the kids were younger and that you would give me gifts on Mother's Day. And I remember I marched the kids in and I sat them down and they were younger. I went, I am not, he is not my father. You are my children. You buy me gifts. This is between you and me. This isn't about him doing that for you. Now, I will just say quick disclaimer. We do every once in a while help you buy a gift for your mom. We pick out because we know what she wants, but that is between you and her.
SPEAKER_01So well, I let me compliment you for something. The reason you don't have a problem going out there and honoring my mother on Mother's Day is because you always feel the honor.
SPEAKER_02I know what my value is.
SPEAKER_01My wife. That's right. And as the mother of our kids. You don't our parents have not made us stay connected to them. They they've encouraged the leaving in cleaving.
SPEAKER_03Yes, they have.
SPEAKER_01And because you feel secure in your role, you are on top of filled with joy about honoring my mother on Mother's Day and your mother. Right. Okay. That's that's really where you see the health of it. Yeah. If you needed it and you're upset because you don't want to celebrate my mom at Mother's Day, then that means okay, I'm not doing my job. Yeah. We have not left and cleft.
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Anyone know what that uh I we didn't do that. We didn't do that connection. And that would have been a problem for us. Um, I'm thankful that I see Chris do this. Uh both our kids, yeah. Yeah, man. Him and they're doing great. Rochelle, I love it. Uh, you know, it's easy. You can you had the I I had to fight on the front end of them getting married. I I had to fight feeling like, well, how come they didn't include us?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, how come you know they went to dinner and didn't invite us? How come they didn't come after church, go to lunch with us? You know, I had to lay that down real quick, yeah, and not let my ego be affected by that. And I'm glad that they can cleave to each other. Yeah, go spend the time with yourselves and go spend the time with each other. Yeah, we're hanging out at the pool at the house on a Saturday. We send a little text, hey, we're gonna be doing it and have some food, come join us. If they say no, it doesn't break our heart.
SPEAKER_02And we we had a conversation about that all of us, guys. If we text you and we invite you, we it will not hurt our feelings if you say no, and we aren't keeping score, we're just making the invitation. And sometimes we don't make the invitation at all because we don't want to convolute or make them feel like, you know, starts fights between couples. This is the third time mom and dad have invited us and you haven't wanted to go. Yeah. And then now they're having a struggle.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we don't ever want to create that scenario. Right. So sometimes we'll say, it's just us, your mom, whoever's in town, Gabby and Lauren, or it's just you and me, or it's just you and your mom. And we're very clear, we're not in, we're purposely not inviting you. Y'all go home. Yeah. So that we don't create uh more of a no, and there's such an intentionality about all of this.
SPEAKER_01It is. It's it's the more you talk about it with your family, the more black and white it is, the more aware you are of all the little nuances that go with how do we continue to honor the older family members that we have, that we've come from, the grandparents, and at the same time honor our relationship as husband and wife. There's a lot of intentionality, a lot of discussion. That's why I'm glad you mentioned that. We did say to our kids, adult married kids right now.
SPEAKER_02Officially sat them down and we said, Guys, don't feel obligated.
SPEAKER_01That's it. And you're right, there's been times we're going to go do something, we're like, don't even tell them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Put pressure.
SPEAKER_01Put the pressure.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01And having, and I've heard them have the conversation amongst themselves, because they want to be sensitive to, hey, we got to make time to make sure we're spending time with members of your family. Absolutely. And that's great. That's right. We want that.
SPEAKER_02It's healthy.
SPEAKER_01We've had to put our egos aside.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01So we would not be offended by that stuff. If we you needed it, Mary, that's that's scary.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01If you needed that constant, let's keep my house full, let's make it all about my cooking. Let's uh I want my kids around me. That's tough. And I'm glad you haven't had that, which shows how secure you are and what a great husband you have to help build.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's the answer, I think.
SPEAKER_01All right, friends. Hopefully uh you have enjoyed another edition
of the Family Business with the Alessis, where family is everybody's business, and we got into your business today. Thanks for joining us.
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