Better . Listen very carefully. A good martial artist does not become tense, but ready. Essentially at this point the fight is over. So we pretty much flow with the goal . Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limit this power? I'm ready.
Speaker 2:I'm excited. Za . We have an apparel sponsor, Perry Athletic. Such good gear. It's incredible. I've been enjoying it, bro . George came through, messaged us on the Instagram, said he is been following our program for ages. He's getting stronger and more mobile and he's got this cool gear company called Perry and he wants to send us some stuff. And he told me that his mission was to create the best pair of training shorts ever. Yeah. He wanted something that he could lift and roll in that could accommodate thick, muscular thighs and hips. And that suits us, speaks to us Also, what I like is I love the colorful design. It actually looks really cool. I am the most colorful dude on the mats these days. Hands down. Yeah. You get that kind of expression. Feel A lot of other juujitsu gear is kind of a bit boring. Yeah, it's all like grays and blacks and. This stuff is the color and the vibrancy. It makes you stand out. The thing that I've loved about it is just, it feels good. It feels good. It looks good. And you ladies and gentlemen can get a discount if you go to perry athletics.com when you go to check out , put in the code Bulletproof 20 and you get 20% off. Oh yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another Bulletproof of B G J Podcast, A M J T. I'm here with Joey and we are in a very new setting today. We are out here. Yeah. Believe it. We're in the podcast studio. Slightly different arrangement. Proper studio soundproofing and. Oof . My goodness. Joe Rogan's over there. Yeah, Jamie's over there. Yeah. We , we told him stay out of our area . Stay out of our way. We are talking today about submission only grappling versus B J J . So what we're talking about here is, if we can imagine it, think of the A D C C as the real, we can see that as the shining light of submission grappling in terms of format. And then we can think of the I B J J F as you know, gee jiujitsu welts . Now I feel there has been a tectonic shift in the culture of Jiujitsu that if you can fill a sporting stadium for no gee jiujitsu or submission only grappling and then you can get more competitors than spectators at the I B J J F . There's something, there's something going on there and it indicates there's a change in the popularity of what's working in grappling. And I thought what we would discuss is pros and cons and what could we change to maybe make the gee great again. Oh wow. Yeah. I mean I already put my piece forward for that, which was just flying submissions only <laugh> . True. But so yeah, there's, there's obviously that that split, right? A D C C is like this mega event. Mm . And then you got I BJ F Worlds, which is like, well I , I don't really know who's super interested in that besides the hardcore gear advocates. I know. Sure. Whereas A D C C is exciting for almost everyone. Yeah. The fans. But if you look at Healy Hook Sure. Right. Just com She's in Texas just competed. I'm just thinking this, this is on saw this on the gram yesterday friend of ours . Yeah . But she competed in, you know, some nogi event that some gym set up. It's like Thursday night fights or something. And they stream it. Yeah. They stream it and then Keller over at Grappling Education. They got grapple mania. Yeah, that's right. None of these are GI events. No. And so, and these are just like neighborhood gyms that have gone, Hey, let's put on a show and make this a regular thing. And then all , and there's this like a lineup of competitors who are like, I wanna compete on your show. I want that. Yeah. I question does the gee have that kind of hype right now? I can't imagine It does. Not right now. But I think A C b there was like a Russian promotion. They had GH and no GH and I think it was just Russian mob money <laugh> funding this thing. Nice . Yeah . But it was, it was super fights. And we've seen GH and no gee super fights. Now the , the question is if you had the gee but it was submission only, does that then make it more interesting? That's what I'm saying. I don't know if it's the fact that the gee is boring. I'm thinking it's more a rule set thing if Yeah . You know, and maybe the I B J J F is like, no, we are traditional, but imagine what if you were , because some referees penalize stalling and some referees don't. Yeah . A no gear match can still be boring. Of course. And what if there's no advantages then there's no reason to do that. And what if you do get penalized for staying in a position for more than a minute and not doing anything like legitimately? Do you know what I mean? I do because I have seen it . What we've seen and what we know for sure, submission only grappling is exciting. And we we're talking in the context of there being no gee , but there have been submission only matches in the gi and that's, that's cool. 'cause people are attacking Do you have any like standout matches submission only in the guy that , that you can name? Not off the top of my head, but I do remember some super fights that were really exciting, but that was dictated by the competitors. So it was like, I think the second Polaris event where Hodra Gracie fought Escher for the first time and Escher nearly armbar the out of Hodra Gracie he beer and followed him and he was just like, people were like, oh my god. Yeah. I mean, because these are two guys who clearly the old guard, the new guard and there was a rematch obviously, and Hodra Gracie won that. So there's context to that battle. Sure. But, but what I was gonna say is those are two awesome competitors. Absolutely. So if you for example, put Nicholas Mengali , your boy, Mr. Handsome in the gi who's indeed who's very attacking and you put him against another ultra aggressive or very attacking gee competitor, like I'd love to see Bocher come back and see that match. Hell , that'd be a great fight. Like obviously those matches for us. Like Hoja, Gracie Bocher , like yes, Leandra Low, you know, you see his match . Like exactly like when you look at these great gee competitors that we came up watching. Sure . I mean me not so much, but , but still it's exciting, right? Because you're like, holy, this is like one of the best guys in the game ever that's about to compete right now. Like , you know , you're watching the absolute pinnacle and these are the people that you've been following. But I wonder comparing even that as an example, did you say that Escher armbar the out of Hoja? He was arm barring . He didn't tap. Of course. Right. But , but yeah. Everyone was like, oh my God, he he's about to submit Hoja Gracie. But if we take away the, the context of that, we take away the fact that it's hoja and bushes . It was just a dynamic match. Yeah. Is what I'm saying. But, but then if we go some no name , uh, couple of nogi competitors who are just trying to kill each other. You see people on arm bars like that and he looks like all day. Yeah. Two parts. The fact that it's two of the greatest competitors doing the thing . So you're like, oh my God, Alexander Volk Kovski is about to lose. Yeah . To Israel La Sonya , right? Oh my God. Yeah. Is that one part what a catch weight <laugh> ? Yeah . Catch weight two pounds , but you know what I mean, hundred pounds . I'm saying like two , two of the kind of greats, two greats fighting each other. But also is there this thing where, and I I really don't wanna sound, I don't wanna sound derogatory towards the g I think people that listen to the show know my stance on 'em . You know, I train , I do train in the GI sometimes and have done for a long time, but I'm not a fan of it as a spectator sport. Is it also because you're at an event, you're watching people in a gi , nothing's going on 'cause you don't know what the happening. 'cause there's all this man and then all of a sudden you see something, you're like, holy, someone just got swept like <laugh> . It's almost like you're in this desert of stimulation and then you just get this one little bit of stimulation. Everyone's like, yeah. Losing their minds. Mm-hmm . Are they saltines ? That's one one the best crack . Like when I give my son sugar and he's like, you're like, it's 'cause he never doesn't need a lot of sugar. Right? Like it's called Honey Son <laugh> versus the No gee stuff. You're just seeing the , you're just getting that sugar all day long. May maybe mainline Ma <laugh> , maybe this is what I wanted to discuss today, because I feel that Jiu Jitsu's had a bit of a bad rap. 'cause when you see some of those matches, like you look at like a very famous match was between Leandro Low and Bert Santos , Uhhuh <affirmative> exciting competitor, both quite intense humans. And Bert at this time, not a popular human right. And Leandro favorite son . And it's right at the end and Leandro comes through with the classic, kind of comes up off a sweep, can't get him down. Blast double, you know, and oh , the take down . And he's like, you see him get the take down ? And he's like, yeah, I've got the take down . Woo . And you're like, yeah. And they , they're just, there's so much intensity to the match. I don't think it was a, it might've been a semi-final or was it the final? I can't remember, but great match. This is what I wanted to say. Those are not submission only matches and they're awesome. So could it be possible now obviously we're talking about, you know, rare occurrences between black belts at the highest level doing awesome stuff. Could it be possible if there was a submission only tournament for, gee , this could make gee kind of renew it in a way? That's what I'm trying to put out there. Yeah , because if we look at the rule set, like for example, I'm gonna give a shout out to Grappling Industries. Shout out David Zi , shout out Sandbag and Cche who , uh, David Zi is the founder of Grappling Industries. Uh, you may have entered one of their tournaments. It's awesome because they have , they're around the world, huh? Yeah. They're , they're , they're worldwide. Mr. Worldwide, what I think is really good is the round robin format. Yeah . So when you pay 50 bucks, you know you're gonna get two or three matches. Yeah . You're not paying a hundred bucks, getting one match, losing and that's it. So you get more experience. I think even just that idea, a round robin format and they reward submission. So even if you won all your matches, if you didn't get any submissions, you may not get on the podium. Oh . So they give you, you get more points. Yeah. You get more points for the submission win. Right . Okay. So that's, that in and of itself incentivizes. Right. Yeah . So could it be possible, because I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the gate . Obviously you've got worm guard and there's different ways to control and stall . But if you had a rule set that heavily penalized stalling, there's no advantages and there's no points. Would that not vibe with me here, Joe ? Like, oh no, I could , could you not see that being a really good Yeah , that could be cool. I could definitely see it being way more fun. Yeah. But here's, here's a bit of the dilemma. I could see it being way more fun. I still think when it comes down to it, for me, it would never be exciting as it could , it cannot compare to Nogi purely because the gee , it makes it hard to see what's going on. Sometimes when you , like if you're looking at two competitors wearing same color, gee , you're like, I don't know what's what. Yeah. But that's, that's a just a mistake in Jiujitsu. Right? Like in judo you have to wear a a a blue gee . Okay . Or a white gee . Yeah . So there's contrast. But even then right. Say like, you can't, like you can't see like when you are watching Nogi Yeah . You can see this striation through the bicep in a tight seatbelt grip you can see. 'cause you can see the body in a sense. Yeah. But is this just , uh, does this just appeal to your , and I'm so glad that Ali's come across to the nogi <laugh>. Is this , is this just appealing to your He's no for his biceps, your man love of the male physique, but Yeah , but I love watching. I like , so it's like how you , I don't wanna watch U f C fighters fight with a t-shirt on. Like I want , you know what I mean? Sure. I like, you want to see, it's like when I'm watching , are you saying there could be a market for transparent geese , bra <laugh> . Now we're talking <laugh>. But you know what I mean, like, it just, you can see what's ha I understand . And even in knowand , gee , it's , you can't see everything, but you can, you get a better feel for it . It's clearer when you're watching the giee . Right. And, and I , I'll think like, you might be watching someone on a, like, someone like half on back control, they've got a seatbelt going and it's like competitors are not moving. And you're like, where's the pressure right now? I can't, I can't get a feel for what's happening. Right. You know? So I think that the gee is always gonna be at a slight disadvantage for the spectators because of that. I don't agree on this because there have been so many exciting gee jiujitsu matches, which were not submission only just because both competitors were trying to kill each other. Yeah. But I think we have a bias because we came up on a steady diet of gi Jiujitsu. <laugh> . Yeah. No , no , no . Like Nogi for us is just this new thing. Like, no, but I , in the competition form we see it . I really like Nogi. I've probably spent more time in the last, like first seven years of my jiujitsu life, pretty much all, gee , occasionally just take the GI off of course to wrestle in terms of my progression and time spent absolute hanging out with Lockie and Craig and just all the guys at absolute, we just basically we're like, no, we're focusing on, no gee , it's wrestling, it's leg locks, it's guard retention. This is what we're gonna do. And that just changed the way I trained. Right. But there is beauty in the simplicity of Nogi. 'cause there's less options. It's pretty simple. Is he strangling him? Is he not? Has he ripped his leg off or has he not? Like it's so in that way, I think it, it does appeal because it's, it's less complicated. You know , you , it's more obvious. But I don't think that necessarily makes it better because we all talk about, oh , how good is it when you see an awesome judo throw? Now admittedly you can do nogi judo. Like you can see dos , you sell much a good judo throw in Juujitsu though. If you were able to maybe reward, maybe if you had a , a system that rewarded takedowns. So let's say there was no submission at the end of it. The person who got the most takedowns one , you know what I mean? Like I do, I I'm trying , I'm trying to think like I do, but yeah, go , go with me on this. Like I know you, you probably, I probably can't change your mind, but I'm saying that like, if I think about Ted Dare , part of the reason why he was so popular was he was a fricking madman and he was always gone for the takedown. So younger crew , he was always attack Fernando, Ted Air Fernando, Ted Air fighting outta Rio Yeah. Was one of the most exciting jiujitsu fighters of the like nineties. Yeah. Nineties, early 2000. But he was also so influential, skinny, long guy, extremely fast, different passing, cartwheel passing. Yeah. Just super dynamic. Huh? Andre Alvar came up under him, right? So he , they had a big smile. It was tt the team was tt it was Teez and Ted da da and they had their own team. Now he had his ups and downs battles with addiction. But so many guys look back to what Teade did and goes , that guy kind of invented that, that kind of bullfighter passing and just dynamic style. There is an amazing clip where he takes down Hoja Gracie, you know, he, he , I think he had beef with , um, a famous fighter called Pano . And because he was already a multiple time world champion, I don't think it's allowed now, but they let him go in like ultra heavyweight. He's a , he's a lightweight. Yeah . But they're like, yeah, we wanna see you have that matchup with Pano . It didn't, I don't know if it actually happened, but he beats all these guys and he fights Hoja Gracie in the absolute, and he does like this kind of , uh, it is a judo takedown. He does like a semi arm drag with a leg trip. And he takes down Hoja Gracie. And this time Hoja Gracie is considered the goat. And that is the same year that he breaks Jacare Ray's arm and Jacare Ray gets out and beats him in the final of the absolute, considered one of the greatest matches. Right. That is one dude who went in and just the game up. And it was just, it wasn't a change in the rules, it was just the way he played. What I'm trying to say here is this is because of the evolution of Jiujitsu with, you know , um, worm Guard and more technical guards and deep Arthur deep half different things. Is the evolution of the game suddenly now hurt the game because it is gaming the rules. It is just trying to win by an advantage. And if we just changed the rule set, not the clothing, would that make, would , could that then make a greater spectacle of a sport? That's what I'm trying to say. I think it would absolutely help. It would have to help, right? Yeah . Like how could , how could that not changing the rules, you know, how could it not make it more exciting to penalize guard, pulling to reward take to incentivize take downs to incentivize submissions somehow. Yeah . Cash bonuses, <laugh> or ca that would be cool, right ? You stalling penalties. Yeah. You know, like, yeah. Yeah . I , I totally agree with that. Talk to me about, say with, with Jiujitsu, like the nature of the friction of the GI and also the grips. Say you were to say you were to do like what they, what are they doing with most , uh, most of these Nogi submission only matches. It's like 10 minutes, right? Yeah . But, but back in the day they used to be unlimited, unlimited time . So that's what I mean with the gi it, it doesn't, if you were to go submission only, potentially you're gonna see a whole bunch of GI matches that just go on and on and on. True . Is that, how do you navigate that? 'cause I'm like, I don't wanna watch these 45 minute matches where, you know what I mean ? I think you could, you could . They happen in no gear as well. Sure. But less often. Look, there have been some pretty terrible nogi matches in the past that Isaac Michelle one on , uh, who's number one or at the end of that contender show they had . Oh God . Yeah. And it just went, they had to like continue stage , wait for like an hour . Yeah . They're like, sorry, we've gotta put the main card on. Yeah . And it's just a war of attrition, right? It's basically whoever gets most exhausted. Yeah . And look, whatever, that's not to discredit. Like Isaac won that and he was doing well for the majority of the match, but oh my God, it gets so brutal. You're an hour in, you're like, how long can these guys last? Right? Yeah . Like it's just go to penalty shootout. Yeah. <laugh>. I kick you in the nuts. You kick me in the nuts. You know who's tougher? Sorry to hijack your response to my question. No , please go for it. Well I was watching , uh, me and I were watching the, let's say e B I overtime. That's exactly on who's number one the other Fight Pass. Fight Pass and Nicky Rod and Manchild or whatever . <crosstalk> . Yeah . The big baby. Yeah . How exciting. Right? But I'm like, how do I feel about this , these overtime rules? I'm like, it's kind of, it's kind of weird. But then Mesa's like, yeah, but what about penalty shootout soccer? Like that's also really weird. Like it's like, hey, we've got no results so we're just slamming the ball at the net now and whoever gets a mo , you know, I'm like okay, fair enough. You, you create a structure that's just to force a result. She spoke to you in a language you understood. You're like soccer relatable <laugh> . I am , my knee is sore. <laugh> <laugh> . But would the gee require something like that? And what could that look like? Here's the thing, escaping a nogi is way more possible. <laugh> Yeah . Than <laugh> . You do You know what I mean? We got you bow and arrow. I got you . Bone arrow <laugh> my knees on the back of your neck. Like it could conceptually happen in that way. But I like I was saying, just throwing back to this idea, I think it was F C B or a CCB , whatever it was, which was this Russian promotion. They did M M A at one stage, but they also did um, just super fight tournament type thing. And I think Josh Inger might've won their first wel to Waits won . And he, I think he fought ISAC in the final . It was brutal. He submitted everybody. It was very, it was brutal. And he also won like 10 grand or 15 grand , which he was pretty happy about. I talked to him about it. Love money . Love it. He was like, it's the best. I've got Anik cough and at the end . <laugh> got these illegal arms and stuff. Essentially, I believe I had seen a game match on that promotion and when it went to overtime it was like first points. So it didn't start E B I overtime . Right. It was like either one of you gets a take down or like what's going on here. Yeah. There are challenges with the gi , but what we have seen is literally the next A D C C will be in a 40. It's in T Mobile arena. It's a 40,000 seat arena. That's even , is that where the next one's gonna be? Yeah, it's a U F C event. Basically . You got our box lined up. It's coming. People don't worry. We'll find a way <laugh> , check it out. 2024 tickets to the Bulletproof Box are going on sale presale. Send your money to <laugh> <laugh> . We'll get it lined up. We'll, we'll work it out. We'll work out the details. But that's the thing. If you can look at that. Now, obviously that is the drive of a single motivated guy, which is Mo Jaim . Yep . He's , he wants to make it the best thing ever. I feel that the organization, the I B J G F , Carlos Gracie Jr . And his family who basically own, you know, and it's, I'm not, I'm not saying this to hate on that. They've run it to oligarch sort . They are, but the thing is they're making that money anyway. What is their motivation? I mean, they did change, they Yeah . To Innovate . Did introduce heel hooks. They did introduce heel hooks at Brown and Black now to try and because they, their tournament numbers went down because they didn't include the leg lock game. Yeah. Like all of the leg lock game I should say. So this is what I wanted to say. What I have noticed is on finals day at Worlds, which is incredibly disappointing because everyone goes fights whatever, you get exhausted, you get injured, you run out of holidays, you've gotta go home on finals day, the stadium's not packed. Right. And it's, it's a university stadium. I don't know how many people can actually even hold like the pyramid. It's very iconic. Yeah . The people there are competitors. They're not just fans. No. Yeah. We're all fans. But you're not, no , you're not going, Hey boys, let's do a trip over to the pyramid. Like let's go to the States and watch I B J J F Welts worlds . But you're like, yo, let's go to Vegas and watch people break each other's knees. Yeah . <laugh>, <laugh> sick . Yeah . I mean , yeah, it's , it is true. Right? And, and so I think that was the thing I realized when we were at the last A D C C , there were people there who were just fans. Yeah. Yeah. Mad it was , it was, it was more akin to a U F C event. Right. I think Gee is still gonna play a huge part in the growth of Jiujitsu. 'cause not everyone can be an ultra athlete and just throw down and wants to try and go to the A D C C . So I feel that for the longevity and the growth of the sport, jiujitsu B J J needs to do something. I honestly believe it needs a mo. It does. I mean, you look at , you look at it like, like I suppose what MO'S doing is off the, like it's off the back of what IB J J F have done. Right? Like sort of Yeah . Ib J J F kind of brought Jiujitsu to the world scene in that way. Yes. Definitely. Like a federation. Yes. And then you get these other innovators that pop up. They're like, Hey, I'm gonna have a, I'm gonna do a new event like this. And then, you know, other places like grappling industries are like, oh okay, well we're gonna do it like this. And so it gets better. Right. This innovation. Um, and so you would hope that there's, whether it was I B J J F that did it, but you know, seems hard, right? Like an older organization, they often don't have the same energy and kind of desire to, to innovate. Needs to disrupt maybe someone else pop. Exactly. That pops up and goes, Hey let's do this sick gear event. This is how I'm gonna run it. I mean Bulletproof submission only, Bulletproof submission only oof Joey and JT exhibition match <laugh>. Hey wrote , that's the match . Everyone came round to see . Yeah . <laugh> , Joey's going, no, gee , I'll wear a gee . Yeah <laugh> man. It's just awful . It's just tricky because it is a point of contention. It's a Hil to climb. No one can know. I think if I'm right in saying this, Joe , correct me if I'm wrong here, I'll, your contention is the gee slows the game and therefore the game's not good. So regardless of rule set , it won't be Yeah, it's a couple. It's the slowing, it's the harder to en to enjoy aesthetically. Sure. Uh , or to understand. Sure . Visually I should say. But yeah, they're probably the main things. Well I'm gonna say I have seen some amazing matches in the GI and they weren't submission. Only if the rule set could kind of force people or incentivize them to run a more dynamic style of grappling, then maybe I think that could make the gee great again. I think it has a chance. Jt. I like the optimism. Yep . I like seeing that from you. And you know, I'd love to see gee jiujitsu , uh, refire the flame and become something great comes special. Nice . Cheers .