Living Like a Local with Jerard Vigil of Vigilante Guides

In this episode of The Real Santa Fe, Bunny welcomes back a truly unforgettable guest—Jerard Vigil, founder of Vigilante Guides and a 12th-generation New Mexican whose family roots trace all the way back to 1598. Born and raised in Chama, Jerard brings an unmatched passion for New Mexico’s rich history, culture, and cuisine to every tour he offers.

Together, Bunny and Jerard dive into:

• The origin of the name “Vigilante” and its deeper Spanish meaning
• How Jerard launched his immersive tour company during the pandemic
• What it really means to “Live Like a Local” in Santa Fe
• A rapid-fire tour of his signature experiences: from the Plaza Sip, Savor & History Tour to the Ghost Ranch Adventure
• His brand-new driving tours to Taos, Chimayó, Bandelier, Wine Country, and more
• Why even lifelong locals walk away from his tours with a deeper appreciation for home
• A sneak peek at his upcoming multi-day Railroads & Ruins adventure across Northern New Mexico and Colorado

Whether you're a first-time visitor or a lifelong New Mexican, this conversation is a love letter to the landscapes, stories, and flavors that make Santa Fe magical.

📍Book a tour or learn more: www.vigilanteguides.com
📲 Follow Jerard on Instagram: @vigilanteguides

Bunny Terry's website

Bunny Terry Instagram

Bunny Terry Facebook

Original Music by: Kene Terry

Transcript

  Um, our goal here is just to hear some stories and to talk about what an incredible place New Mexico is to hang out and. Live in, um, whether you're new or you've been here all your life, your family's been here for 400 years, which is how some of my friends are.

But our guest today, um, this is the amazing Tanya Catan. She is a, the author of the bestselling, um, creative trespassing, but she's also a part-time resident of New Mexico. So welcome, Tanya. I'm so excited that you're here. 

Thanks for having me, bunny. I love I I love you. I love Santa Fe. I love New Mexico and I don't get any kickback from the city or state or government for saying that.

Me neither. Me neither. Um, it's, I am, I'm really, I think it'll be really fun to talk to you because you are, you moved here during the pandemic, right? I mean, you've gotta bought a house here during the pandemic. And I have, because I sell real estate, I have like four different clients who did that. And it's, I think that's gotta be tricky.

So I'm curious, you know, we, um, I'm curious to know first. Why you chose here and how, how was that to move somewhere completely different. 

Well, we actu so we split our time between Phoenix, Arizona and now Santa Fe. And um, at first for years we'd been coming to Santa Fe. We just loved it, especially as, um, Venetians the summer there.

I don't know if you're familiar with this. But you know, they're like, you know, we could, you could fry an egg on the sidewalk. They should literally just say, you can fry your brain for free because we're not selling marijuana legally. 'cause it gets you high, but not in a good way. Being in that amount of heat, it's just not okay for the human body.

So for years we've been coming to Santa Fe in the summertime to get away from the heat and also high desert. People don't know, I, I actually. I'm loathed to say this out loud 'cause now I don't want more people moving to Santa Fe, but the high desert, it's kind of like you get the east coast and the west coast slammed together in the best possible way and nature and um, seasons and environment.

So for years we thought, well, you know what, we'll get like a little pie de tear in Santa Fe while we have sort of a larger home for us in our. Dog in Phoenix and then the pandemic hit and we just kind of shifted the paradigm and we decided, okay, we'll keep a small place in Phoenix and then, you know, we'll get a place in in Santa Fe.

And um, yeah, we came at the worst possible time because real estate was at an all time high and our budget was at an all time low. And, um, we kept being shown places that were very, very, very expensive and needed a lot of work and 10 people had already put like cash offers on them. Um, but the good news about Santa Fe, and one thing I know, you know, bunny in, in real estate is we had beautiful relationships with our real estate agents, um, Joshua and Melissa.

And also if you are on the ground in Santa Fe in two seconds, if you are a kind, good hearted person, you will meet every person you need to meet for the rest of your lives. Everyone has a story to tell. They don't, they're not afraid to tell you their story, even if they're, you know, the plumber working on your pipes.

Even if you know the, like your car broke down and they're helping you fix it, like. If you are generous enough with who you are and what you're about, there are people who will meet you and match you in Santa Fe. And we, we found that with house, you know, house looking and, um, the place, we ended up being lucky enough to.

To, I guess, kind of be a part of the legacy of this home because, um, artists owned it before and an artist inherited it. And, um, we're continuing that lineage of artists. 

Okay, so, and I wanna say, um, and maybe you already, when you and I were doing our.

We're still recording, right, Johanna? So you can pick out the good stuff. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. 

Mm-hmm. 

So you, when we, you and I were doing our coaching intensive where I got to mm-hmm. The paradise of coming up for four hours, three days in a row and hanging out and talking. Um. It was in the spring, and you said, I've never really lived in places that had distinct seasons, if I remember correctly.

And you said this spring, there were things coming up, you know, little flowers showing up out in your front in, in the, um, flower bed out front. And you're like, this is so exciting to, you know, we had winter. I mean, we really had winter, which is what happens where we live and, and then we have this amazing springtime and I thought it was so cool that you were so excited about living somewhere where there were four seasons.

Yeah, I've never, I've, I grew, first six years of my life was New York, then got out, so, you know, I had a couple winters, some tobogganing if you will, and some, you know, closed school days and then grew up in Arizona, which is like one and a half seasons. It's like, oh, and then, ah, you know, that's really the verbal like.

Conveyance of seasons there. And then here are two things that were astounding to me that I didn't expect in Santa Fe. Obviously I knew conceptually there were seasons here, but again, being in high desert, the desert vegetation sort of fools you sometimes. Um, especially coming from Arizona where there are crossover plants and, and um, and animals and things like that.

Um, so yes, the season's delightful, but what was more astounding to me was, and why we chose to be here part-time is because. Nature works in chorus with commerce here, right? Like in Phoenix, unfortunately, um, the city, um, this and has decided that Phoenix is a movie set, um, that's subject to being torn down whenever they want.

Like schools that we grew up in, torn down architecture torn down, and things are sort of slopped up that seem. To be there for only a short period of time. So it's almost like we were the erasure of desert, you know, all the malls, all, all the enclosed spaces with air condition as opposed to Tucson for example.

That I think is a really good city of working with environment. Um, and so we long to live in a place where. You know, nature coexisted where you could walk out your door and both be in nature and get a coffee or go to the best restaurant that you ever, uh, gone to, that they're not isolated incidents. And to me that was really special.

Is special about Santa Fe and also I, I think with Santa Fe there's nowhere to hide. Like literally the landscape lends itself to an openness and it's pretty stark. And also like, think about what people do here for a living. You know, it's not, there's no hustle and bustle here, right? It's like you're either independently wealthy, um, or about to die, or a combination of the two, or you're one of the lucky few who has a job in the art sector.

In hospitality, in, you know, and, um, and you're hustling. 'cause it ain't cheap to live here, I'll tell you that much. Um, and um, there's this wonderful sense though, not like, you know, I lived in LA or Phoenix where you're literally driving as fast as you can. There's four lane high, right? This, this place is such, such a labyrinth of streets of, of curvy, windy.

Roads and curvy, windy people and you know, getting from A to B means telling seven stories, listening to 10, and then deciding to just go to coffee with someone you just met, you know? And, um, I think that, that, that charm allows you to be who you are. I mean, the city, different sort of champions like, hey.

Bring it all. Bring your flaws, your scars, your weirdness, your cultural backgrounds. Bring your diversity for real. And we are here to allow that space for you to shine. And, um, that is both, uh, delightful and also arresting. When you've been in places where you're surrounded and enclosed in architecture and systems and rigid ways of being here, you literally are forced, whether you're driving.

Down a street that you thought went one way and now goes another to, to, to explore, um, the expansive space. And I think explore the expansive who we are, um, as individuals and communities. That's what I feel. So I feel wonderfully exposed and open to, to learning more than I ever thought I'd wanna learn at this point in my life.

That's what's so cool. In fact, I used to, you know, my son went to school in Austin, went to University of Texas, and I always thought. The heck with Keep Austin weird. I, I mean, I'm like, keep New Mexico weird. Let's not, you know, let's not, um, get, so, um, I just don't want it to change. I want everybody to be allowed to, um, be exactly who they are and who they wanna be.

Um. I, you know, I mean, there's always, always that little bit of friction between, um, the, the very, you know, folks whose families have been here for 300 years and people who are newcomers. But, but what I find is that overall, there's a pretty broad acceptance of anybody who's. A little different or a lot different.

Mm-hmm. Well, and you have families who've been here for thousands of years and those families who've been here for 300 years have colonized and taken, stolen the land. So, you know, you life, there's, there's restriction on different levels too. You know, I'm, I'm just saying that there's, there's, there's different frictions and, um, and also part of the impetus for coming here.

And people we had met over the years were leaders in arts organizations. So to me, you know, I always want to live in a place where arts and culture are the foundation of being as opposed to something that's not funded or pushed to the side. So for years we knew, um, Mary Scully, the curator of. The New Mexico Museum of Art.

We knew, I know, um, Andrea Hanley, who is a curator at the wheel ride, and we knew the executive director, Sidney Kahan who, uh, who of site Santa Fe or Creative Santa Fe, and now the new executive director, sir Rockman, like, so, so I guess my, my point is, is that. Frictions are awesome. It means that we're alive.

You know, tensions are fantastic. If, if the underpinnings of those are, um, framed within safe places to have conversations about what that means, about what it means to come together as diverse and wild and wonderful humans. And so to me, the arts organizations here cite Santa Fe. It's like world class.

They just did a show by Jeff Jeffrey Gibson, you know, like. Artists who are at the forefront and activists who are at the forefront of leading these conversations about tensions and about creating futures that, um, include everyone are, are being, are coming to Santa Fe to show their art and to share these conversations and to invite those of us who are lucky enough to spend time in.

So, I, I think we're in a really cool place because it, it's the only small town I know of in, in the United States that's wildly liberal. And also, again, champions the arts and, um, culture and cultures for role. Yeah. 

Well, to, to simplify that a little bit is, I mean. You're, you're sort of talking about art outside of you, but what's it like to be an artist working?

I mean, I've seen your office, you get to look at the mountains. You, you have, you live in this pretty nurturing environment. How does, is it easier here? 

Well, so yeah, I'm a, I'm a writer by trade and training, um, uh, you know, an author and playwright and also a public speaker. But everything I do, the foundation of it is writing and, um, my office is.

It's in, it's small. It's small, and it has windows that looks out onto this little garden. It's not big, but it feels big. And we have like, uh, lalacs and lilies and things that don't start with LI don't, you know. Um, and the other day I was looking outside at the, at the green and the mountains and whoever was smart enough to plan this community buried all the wires underneath the ground.

So I, we can look at the mountains and the vegetation unencumbered by, um. Anthrop Anyway, so I'm, I'm looking and I'm like, I'm in Eden. And most of the time, quite frankly, you know how I feel, bunny, this is the hard part actually about getting, actually getting work done, is I feel like we got the keys to a really great Airbnb and then the owners were like, um, where you just take it.

And I'm like, what? Because it's so pretty. It's so pretty here and, and, and every day, you know, I, I try to walk near the plaza on Alameda, um, because I love hearing, you know, the church bells of St. Francis ring and, and feeling like I'm both here and in Europe or, or here and you are in Spain, you know? Um.

So anyway, I, I love, I love it here. So it's, it's hard to get work done, but it's inspiring simultaneously. 

It's so funny, um, because obviously I agree with you and we both do obviously that it's so beautiful here, but I had family come from Kansas that had never been to New Mexico, and you know, they were like.

How could artists be inspired here? How could Giorgio O'Keeffe have like loved living here? It's just brown and everything is just brown and like dry. I was like, you don't get it. These people don't get it, so they're missing out. It's just so much beauty. 

Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that, Johanna, because we, um, what you notice is the subtleties of all the greens, the subtleties of all the brown.

So like in our neighborhood, you know, pinon tree green is very different than like, um, is it Russian sage, the, the green and purple of that? Or like, just like beautiful weeds and bushes. I don't know the names of, but there's like a chalky green versus, you know, like an evergreen green like. So many shades of that.

And I think that that if, if people want to take the time to see the world around them as extraordinary, even if that's noticing the variation of shades of brown or green, then they will see magic wherever they dare to go. And if they don't, then they won't see it anywhere they go, regardless of where they are geographically.

So we had a, we went to a dinner at a neighbor's house the other night and the daughter took me outside and she said, we have this really beautiful orange weed growing this weed growing here that has these adorable little orange flowers on it. And I said, well, some people in New Mexico call that a wildflower.

Some people call it a weed, and we don't care what you call it, because both of them are valuable in their own way. But I thought it was, I thought it was hilarious that she said, oh, we have these weeds, but we're gonna leave them because they have these orange flowers. And I was like, well. Or, or it could be a wildflower.

You know, you, but you're right. If you, you, the, the cool thing about here is that you do have to, it's not so obvious. It's not like in your face. You gotta take time, slow down. I don't know about you, but when I come over the hill from Albuquerque at up, when I come over la Baja and you see the mountains in front of you and the city spread out, I think that my blood pressure goes down about 15 points.

Yes. Without any hesitation. Uh, literally opening our door in the morning. You know, it's funny, when we first landed here, we were staying with a friend and, and everything. We were like, oh my God, it's so pretty. It's so pretty. This is so pretty. That's so pretty. And she's like, that might wear off. It has not worn off yet.

And I don't anticipate it wearing off because literally I'm, uh, we have a cherry tree. Oh, we've never had a cherry tree. We have raspberries, we've got strawberries like, and every once in a while I'm just walking outside and I see that that green patch has like popped out This. Beautiful little piece of nature's candy that I pop in my pie hole and eat.

And so I don't, I, I mean, it's all one, it's all surprising and sort of unfolding right in front of us. And again, every human being that we have common contact with, except for a few people at a local coffee, coffee shop, which I won't name, has been, they've been like the most open, delightful. Kind in a deep way that I've never experienced living in big cities before.

Um, and again, I don't know if that's specific to New Mexico and or Santa Fe, but we've been the recipient of, of a lot of love and, and you know, also the purveyors of love as well. Not in a, not in a, yeah. Uh, we're not sex workers. I didn't mean like that, I just meant like, you know, like in a kind, um, community oriented way.

It 

no, that it kind of, I was gonna bring up too, you know, as someone, myself and the gay community and you as well, like, this is one, Santa Fe is one of the few cities in the country. I've, I haven't traveled. Nearly as much as you have, but or as other people. But it's one of the few cities where I do feel safe and I do feel like I can be open and be myself.

Um, even some other cities in New Mexico aren't like that, but uh, for the most part it is. But Santa Fe for sure, I feel like. I'm not alone. I'm not gonna be singled out. So did you find that as well when you moved here? Yeah. 

I'm so, I'm so glad you brought that up because I totally forgot. So my wife and I have been together 20 years.

We got married and, and I'm putting married in air quotes, um, in 2006 in Phoenix. And they're only in air quotes because people are like, oh, it wasn't legal, but we had a caterer. So it was legal. Um, and we had like, you know, we had 150 people. We did it, we did like a, a, a sort of proper way. It was real in two, it was real, it was real.

So then the law caught up with how people actually live. And, um, around 2000, I don't even know, I'm gonna say 2016, 15 ish. Angela, my wife, was giving a talk. Uh, she's a professor of art and an artist at the New Mexico Museum of of Art. And we're like, oh, it. Let's just like, you know, pop into like the, a city office and get married.

And we, we had two, you know, friends here, so we're, we're like, will you be our witnesses? And they're like, yeah. And what was astounding to us, quite frankly, is. Had we gotten married in Phoenix legally, uh, with a judge, we were scared that they would've either kind of moved us through as if we were going through a, a drive through at McDonald's and they were slightly irritated, um, or that the fact that we were queer and getting married wouldn't be favorable to them.

So they might be unfavorable to us. Here, we didn't have any expectations. We walked in and the judge, which we thought would just be like, okay, get married. She would gave like the most beautiful speech about, you know, love and our commitment to each other. And this is a real like, and we started crying. We didn't expect it to be.

Such a loving, kind experience through, uh, like a government establishment and, and also for the person who, who officially married us to actually care about our union and, and believe that it is important as a queer couple, as people who were deciding to be a part of a, a New Mexico community. And it was the best.

Official marriage ever. Um, you know, fast forward, who? Yeah. Anyway, so it was just like, it was, it was beautiful. 

Unexpected. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. It's beautiful. I didn't 

see it made me cry. Uh, we didn't expect it. It was just really a bonus. So. Yeah. 

Well, so, um, so you keep talking about stuff, things that are unexpected.

Have you traveled anywhere in the state? 'cause I know we talked about some day trips. We had dinner at your house and you're like, oh, we gotta do this day trip. Have you traveled anywhere that you went? What? That's so cool. 

Well, I think we're just kind of getting our footing so far. However, we did go to, not Madrid, but Madrid.

The other Madrid? 

Yes. 

Um, uh, we went to Madrid last year with Jock, um, and Louise with some friends who are also part of the Greater New Mexico community and for gay pride and uh, it was the best gay pride I've ever been to. It was lit. So Madrid is a teeny tiny town. Created by and for artists and funky thinkers and weirdos in the best possible way.

And so we went to, to gay pride, and it was the float consisted of a, a truck with a bed on it and five people dancing and they would drive. Up and down. They'd wait 15 minutes to gather some more audience and they, they'd drive back and forth the main strip and, um, and they were wonderful. And I just wanted to jump on the float and dance.

So that was like, that was a really fun, uh, trip that we've, we've taken. But we are just at the beginning of exploring, uh. Greater New Mexico. I mean, I've done a lot of trips again, we, we split our time between here in Phoenix and we like driving the driver love. Um, so we've driven through many cities a lot.

Um, but we'll, we'll look forward to staying. Yeah. 

So have you done that drive where you go through Zuni? Have you done that? Like where you go by El Morrow and you go through Zuni? Um. Which freeway? It's a little, it's a little, I, I don't, I mean, I don't know how you go to Phoenix, but um, if you go to grants and then you go south, it's actually a little past.

Maybe it's a little be, anyway, you'd have to look on the map. It's either right before grants or right after. Then you drive down through the mountains to the, to Zuni, which is of course the town that is the base of the Zuni Pueblo. But El Morro is in Inscription Rock, and it's where people like Don the uh, oh, oh my gosh.

Why can't I think, listen to me, I'm, I'm like, I'm like a history. 

It's either Crocodile Dundee and Gandhi. What? Cro Dundee, 

people in EE is 16, 15 hundreds, carved their names on the rock. 

Oh. 

And then like high school kids carved their names on the rock, I'm sure. And, and, and so it's, um, I'll send you a picture, but that's one place that it, next time you drive to Phoenix, it's a little longer, but Wow.

Is it cool. 

Yeah, because I'm typically, I'm not gonna lie about that because we're typically going to Phoenix to, to work and to get there quickly. Right. We, we take, you know, it's anything that starts with a 40, um, or 25 or a 10, that's it. But I, I would love to stop and I hope that like in the postscript or you know, that there are all these places we talked about so that, um, we can visit.

Oh, absolutely. I love because you're such a wealth of knowledge being here for your a lot of years and not just being here, bunny, but, but like knowing everybody, being a convener of community member, um, and all that jazz. I, I feel like, you know, it's funny 'cause we were talking about restaurants. And you, you asked about, you know, oh, what restaurants do I feel like you introduced me to, to several places that I really, I hadn't been to.

I mean, uh, market Steer hadn't been to, I've just been to Soreto. Yes. Soreto. Um, yes. Uh, yeah. Anyway, um, and then, um, open Kitchen, which isn't a restaurant, but boy, how did you eat? As if you've, you know, sat down at a restaurant, unbuttoned your pants and got to work. I. 

It is where we got to meet, um, somebody who's also gonna be a podcast guest.

Um mm-hmm. Cheryl Jameson, who is, um, a, also somebody who moved here and is our friend, the James Beard Award-winning cookbook writer. Holy mackerel. That was fun. I keep hope, I think I'll ask her when we record her podcast, if she'll invite us out for dinner, because, I mean, where does she go? People there either are really good eaters or really great cooks.

Where does she go for dinner? I'm curious. 'cause that would be worth not knowing. 

Oh, no, no. I, well, that's what we'll ask her. Okay. Um, I see all the time that she goes, I mean, she goes everywhere, but, um, I, I wanna go have dinner at her place into Suge where she and her husband renovated a barn. So that's what they live in.

But what about your favorites? 

My favorites. Well, I am a good eater. First of all, we have an unfair advantage here. We've got a great farmer's market and I got a kitchen. So there, you know, cooking is really nice and because weather's so beautiful, we can eat outside. I have a grill and blah, blah. But I would say that for new Mexican food, LAA.

All the way I said it, I meant it. You could fight with me about it afterwards. Um, and then our, our favorite, favorite go-to, like whenever somebody's coming to town is, um, Sweetwater Harvest. Oh, yeah. I know because it's, okay. Look, we're not vegetarian. It's ve, but it's vegetarian. One of us is allergic to wheat and it's all gluten-free.

And here's the trickery with gluten-free being with somebody who's gluten-free. It's like as a non-gluten free pe, I wanna eat all the things and, and not question whether or not there's gluten in it. I just want it to be good. And not being a vegetarian, I just want all the vegetables to be good and satisfying.

And they have some meat dishes there. It's not completely vegetarian. Um, but it's just, it feels fresh and yummy. Sort of Asian influenced and also influenced by whatever's growing at that time. And it's, it's our yummiest. Um, so I'd say those are like, those are our, our go-tos for new Mexican food and for.

Um, not new Mexican food. 

And I would tell, I, you know, people who are listening, who are, who are in internally saying, no, no, you gotta go to the shed. I had a cousin who here Oh, tell, but aren't they the sister restaurant? Yeah, they're sister. It's a sister restaurant. I, a hundred years ago when I lived in Albuquerque, uh, my friend said, we're gonna go to, and we had no money, of course, I had little kids and no money.

And a friend of mine said, we're gonna go to Santa Fe and eat great food. We're we're. I said, I keep hearing we should go to the shed. And then I kinda winced because I knew we couldn't afford it. And she said, we'll go to Laa. Everything is less expensive. It's the exact same menu, so. 

Yeah. And it's never, and it's never, there's no, well not never there were lines around the place, but their to go operation is so smooth and so lovely.

Like, um, because we moved during the pandemic, you know, when we were spending our most time here and there was no sitting, there was no inside dining, and they were just like, you phone that order in, you picked it up, you ate like a queen or king or Quin quinine. 

And yes, they have the best margaritas. Not that I, 

oh, they were, yeah, they were, they were awesome.

I, I, you know, I know everybody's like, oh, the best Mar Maria's. If there's tequila and something like limey, it's awesome. Like, I don't know how, how you like the best margaritas is when you're in the best mood to drink 'em. I think that's so true. And not, and not too sugary. And not too sugary. 

Del Charo still my favorite Margarita.

Ooh. I've read about, I've never been to Del. I know. I pass it all the time. Oh. Okay, I'm going. They 

serve it with a sidecar. 

I think that might be wise. 'cause if you feel like you get more, you get to refill it. But they're really good too. So 

I feel like this, um, like this podcast lends itself to sponsorships.

And then what you do is you give the guest like, oh, a hundred dollars gift card to Del Charo. Or like, oh, $50 to the Cho. So I look forward to being a guest again when sponsorship has come in and I can drink free margaritas for a year. All right, sounds like a plan. 

We should probably record one. In the middle of drinking margaritas at Laa, I would totally 

do a drunk podcast with you guys.

I would, 

in fact, I'm doing it now.

What line am I on? Where am I? 

Okay, so we have to, so have you read, we always wanna ask if you, have you read any books by New Mexico authors or. You love any books? Well, 

before or, or in, sorry. Ever ask it again? Just 

in your life. Yeah. I don't 

know. I'm not gonna lie about that stuff. Um, yeah, I'm sure the answer is, uh, like a, like a hard yet a soft yes, because I'm trying to, I, I mean, I, I read so many books in my time.

Well, 

you've read Bunny's book. 

Oh, 

ask the question 

again. Ask the question again. 

I dunno what I could think of. I know you've read, I ask the question again. 

Okay, cut here. 

Well, okay, so I'm just, we always wanna ask people because we are such readers and you're a writer. If you've read any books by New Mexico coauthors or about New Mexico, you know, like Death comes for the Archbishop always comes to mind.

Everybody in the world's always read that has read that by Willie Kard, but otherwise. Got your favorite New Mexico book. 

Yeah, there's an author named Bunny Terry. And, um, it's, it's a book like Lifesaving Gratitude about Enduring Cancer that I'm really connected to. Actually, you know what? Let the truth be known, the reason Bunny and I met through books, right?

So, um, if you're talking about. People based in New Mexico writing, then I'd say that we met in the best possible way. We exchanged books. And, um, to me, especially with memoir, that's the best way, the most comprehensive way to get to know someone. Um, whether you like it or not, you'll learn a lot about a person.

But, um, and I know Bunny, your book was just awarded a special award for you being a New Mexico. Writer and also this book coming from you and what was that award? 

I got in the best of Santa Fe competition for books written by New Mexico authors. I was number three behind two of the coolest books ever written.

One. One is a book, uh, by James McGrath. He wrote the, um, the Autobio or God it, the biography of Tony Hillerman and. Um, then there is a young Navajo rider who did this really cool pilgrimage where he ran from the, uh, Fort Sumner, the Bosque Redondo, where they housed Navajos for a couple years. Kit Carson moved him off the reservation, they housed them down there, and then they took him back the Long Walk back to the Navajo reservation.

You know, it was during, um, some pretty ugly times in American history and this guy did a run, like he ran. From, and I haven't read the book, but I keep reading reviews thinking, why, why don't I own that book? And that was number two. And then my little book was number three. Woo. Woo. Congratulations. So. 

Yeah, that's awesome.

And, and clearly there, you know, what is really exciting about New Mexico and Santa Fe specifically? Um, just like there's a, a deep history of of art visual artists who come from here. Um, you know, obviously Giorgio, O'Keeffe, Agnes Martin and whole, everybody, lots of people. Um, so is true with writers. And, um, and I feel like as a writer, that residue, that energy that's kind of left behind and present and future of, of writers, um, whether I we're conscious of it or not, is, is really in our, in our bodies when we, when we come to Santa Fe.

So I. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Natalie Goldberg, I love, she, you know, for, I, I taught, um, memoir writing for, for several years, um, in a, in a program I started with, uh, Angela in, in Italy. And, you know, my, one of my bibles has always been writing down the bones, uh, by no Goldberg. You know, um, it's such a foundational tool for beginning writers and then writers who considers themselves professional, who get stuck and need to get unstuck and, um, anyway, so I hope to run into her at Sprouts at some point.

I, I, well, not recently, but I at one point went to a reading, like out where McCumber Gardens is, she did a reading of a book. She did some book like Struck by Lightning or something that was about memoir writing. And I went out there and I sort of, I was so fan girl, I just fawned over her. I said I, and she was very nice.

She said, thank you so much next, because there was this huge line of people who wanted her signature on their book, but she's amazing. And she wrote that great book, banana Rose. She wrote this piece of fiction about, and you, and it was, it seemed quite. Autobiographical. Um, it seems sort of memoirish, but anyway, there are artists everywhere and that's the cool thing.

Everybody's accessible and everybody's welcome. So I don't know. That's what I love about New Mexico and I love that you're here part of the time. 

Me too. Thank you. Yeah, me too. So if you see me on the mean streets of Santa Fe, just say, Hey, I'm literally the person walk. I walk everywhere. I'm wearing earphones, I have spiky hair, and I'm smiling because I'm happy that I have the privilege to have a body that works to be in the beautiful natural environment and to be surrounded by like cool.

We are different in air quotes, human beings just like I am. Um, so say hi, but don't b don't beep violently. It really freaks me out. No, no. Uh, well 

stick around because. Soon we'll be doing the Margarita tour. Go ahead Johanna. I'm sorry. 

Oh, I just wanna say well we're happy that, that you're a new Mexican now.

You're, you're official, you're a new Mexican, you're a Santa fan even if it's only part-time. But we're happy you're here and, and thank you for being on the show with us. 

A total pleasure. Can't wait to drink with you guys. 

Okay, soon, 

soon, soon. Alright, we love you. Take care. Love you. Bye.