The Word Café Podcast with Amax

S4 Ep. 266 Man Talk With Dr. Andy Osakwe

• Amachree Isoboye Afanyaa • Season 4 • Episode 266

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What if the stability you want at home depends less on trends and more on timeless order? We sit with Pastor Andy Osakwe to unpack a countercultural idea: when a father treats leadership as service, when a wife offers help without force, and when both practice mutual honor, families stop reacting to culture and start shaping it. No posturing, no clichés—just honest talk about what actually works.

We dig into why so many young marriages stumble under movie-fueled expectations and social media noise. Pastor Andy explains the “ancient paths” as living principles: leadership that sets standards without domination, help that empowers rather than competes, and honor that flows both ways. We talk about the weight of a father’s words, how public unity between spouses strengthens private trust, and why teaching kids to value wisdom beats chasing the next viral script. Reaching Gen Z and Gen Alpha means entering their digital spaces with patience, using technology to connect, and translating enduring values into today’s language.

We also tackle the big question of getting married young. The answer is crisp: maturity beats age. Readiness shows up in money habits, stable emotions, responsibility, and a plan you can execute. If you can’t house and steward a family yet, wait and grow. If you’re ready, lead with humility, receive help with gratitude, and make time for the people you claim to love—because being “too busy” is not a strategy. Come for the candid insights, stay for the practical steps that will help you build a home with strength, peace, and purpose.

If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review. Tell us one value your home will live by this week and why it matters to you.

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SPEAKER_02:

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good everything. Yes, welcome to the World Cafe Live Show. This is the space where we come in to do what? Lean on one and others' experience to forge a positive path. It's been sunny in Abuja. I think the weather is beginning to change into what we call Hamatan, the cold, what it our winter, more or less, you know. And uh yes, so we'll be experiencing that until it gets to that chilling, chilling point again. I am super excited. Do you know why? I have someone special on the show with me today. Now, before I call on him, I'm not ashamed of saying it. I'm a Christian, and you know I say it a lot, and I have a pastor for your information. Yes, you heard me right. I have on set today with me my pastor, the senior pastor of the Summit Bible Church Worldwide. Why do I say worldwide? Because we're everywhere now. Yes, I have him on the show today. None other than Pastor Andy Osakwe. We call him Dr. Wandy because that's who he is.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome, sir. Thank you. Good to see you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, before we came on set, I was teasing him more or less that, Pastor, how you cope in this period because he does a lot of traveling and all of that. He's he he sometimes he sleeps in Nigeria and wakes up in the US, if you understand what I mean by that.

SPEAKER_00:

So how do you do it, sir? Well, you know, you just have to find a way to adapt, you know, to uh changing conditions. Uh huh. So what happens is uh, especially when you come uh uh between the US and Nigeria, the time zone. So it's it's not just the jet lag, right? There's always a jet lag when you fly long distance. True. But there's also now the additional time zone problems. So what I do is I just uh try to stay as as busy as I can, right? And then try to uh uh because you know your sleeping times will have to change. Uh so if you can stretch your slip a little bit more every day, it takes me about a week.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. A week to settle in?

SPEAKER_00:

It takes about a week, yeah. Can you imagine? And usually just when I'm about to settle, I have to go back again. And it flips again. It flips, keeps flipping, you know. Wow. Yeah, but uh that's the nature of the work.

SPEAKER_02:

Good to have you here. Thank you. So, guys, today we'll be doing what I call man talk with Pastor Wandy. Uh Pastor Wandy is big on the family, he's very big on it. And each time you see him talk about family in church, he's very passionate about it. And I just felt, okay, for this season, he's around, let me take advantage of his availability and we do this. There's this, would I call it, attack on manhood globally. Yeah. You find a lot of men shrinking from that office and that role. Yeah. Why? Why?

SPEAKER_00:

What's the reason for this? Well, I'll be honest with you. I, you know, sometimes my answers are too simplistic. So they say. Uh-huh. But uh, I think it's a satanic agenda to weaken the uh the original or the originally intended structure of God and make men feel like they're not really supposed to occupy a leadership position. Yeah. And then when a man when when a man loses his confidence, how's he going to lead? You know, if if the leader is not respected, then he doesn't have that um the necessary uh momentum required to actually take that place. You know, so that's what's going on. There are a lot of movements which, as far as I'm concerned, don't don't don't make any sense. Yeah. Because they're just designed to weaken the man's authority. And once that happens, you have a home that is dysfunctional. Because as long as the man is not occupying his office, what you have is a dysfunctional system. Yeah. Because that's not the way God ordained it. We want to go back to God's original intention. Uh He's the one that designed marriage. Yeah. He manufactured, in quote, marriage. So he's the one that um knows how it works. You know, we have to go back to God. And uh to do that, we have to, to a large extent, we have to shut down uh a lot of the systems that we have, which are man-made systems and are designed to go against the system of God. It's not simplistic.

SPEAKER_01:

No, your answers are not simplistic.

SPEAKER_02:

They are the truth. Even though we some of us want to run away from it, like you like you rightly pointed out, systems. Yes. Now, recently, I just realized, or I just noticed, there's been this attack on young marriages. A couple of people around me, you just hear separated, divorced, and it's like, excuse me, what's happening to you people? Well, I I wanted to speak to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What what what do you think is the problem with regards that this I wouldn't use the word epidemic now, but this challenge.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's uh yeah, it's it's facing this um younger generation. I I'll say the millennials, you know, have that as a major challenge. But I also think it's even going to be it might be worse for the Gen Z. And Gen Alpha. And Gen Alpha, that's another story, man. You know. And it's the exposure. Okay. You know, there is um they're exposed to a lot of um standards that are not biblical.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So, you know, whatever you're exposed to tends to be your you know, your example. So you you you tend to follow after what others have shown you. And the movies are not helping. You know, we watch movies and it's all about falling in love, you know, but then it's a two-hour movie or two and a half hours, right? And most of the people who are the uh actors and actresses, in their personal lives, most of them are divorced several times. Yeah. So they cannot be the the good example for us to follow. So that's a story written by someone which is based on fantasy. Yeah. We need to go back, and the younger generation, we need to teach them God's word. It's a big problem. It's a big problem. And uh, like I said before, there are many movements which on the surface appear noble. But if you examine more critically, you'll see you'll see that they're not helping. I'll give you a good example. And some people may have a problem with this, but they they just need to think through. Take, for instance, feminism, the feminist movement. Yeah. What's the reason? Why do we need a feminist movement? You see, if we go back to God's word, God's word caters for male and female. God's word caters for uh uh husband and wife. Jesus had a lot of respect for women. If you noticed, most of his sponsors were women. True. Because he treated them well. So if we're saying that Christianity does not, or there's a form of male chauvinism in Christianity, Jesus disproved it. He valued anybody everybody. The first person that preached the gospel, that was given the privilege of preaching the gospel was a woman. True. You understand? So if we go back to God's word, we don't need a special ism. You understand? Exactly. We don't need a special ism that will now that will now complicate the the normal order of God. As far as God is concerned, the male is not superior to the female. True. Right? The female is not inferior to the male. But God has something called order. There's a divine order, and that's why in the home, somebody has to lead. True. That leadership is not based on domineering the partner or oppressing the partner. That leadership is simply for for the sake of God's order, so that there's a structure that allows us to operate God's system.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's all. So there's no need for a competition. Because once you start feminism, then the men also feel okay, these guys are trying to compete with us. Let us start our own issue. Exactly. Our own is it. Why say things like, what whatever a man can do, a woman can do also? Is that necessary? Do women now want to really start doing what men do? I don't think so. No. I don't think so. Are they to go into construction and start climbing, right? And risking their lives. Are they ready to go and start digging? You understand? Let's look at what men actually do and what men have done through the centuries to support civilization. Women don't want to do that. They have their own role.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Everybody has a place. True. Right? And if we value our places, we wouldn't need to compete.

SPEAKER_02:

But some people may listen to you now and say, Pastor, you're old school. I mean, you're old school. We want to do it the AI style. AI style.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's a big problem. Because there's certain things we need to be old school. I found a scripture, you know, that speaks about the ancient paths. There's something about, you know, old and new. But then there's ancient. Ancient. Ancient is not old. It's always there. Yes, always there. Before God created the earth, there were some pathways that were already in existence. Yeah. So we need to go back to those pathways. It doesn't make you old school, it just makes you stable.

SPEAKER_02:

My daughter will ask me, why do we call God ancient? And the day she asked that question, I struggled. Well, well. And I now realize that he's ancient because it doesn't change.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes. Ancient doesn't mean old. No. That's the thing, you know. Ancient does not expire. No. So he's ancient because he's always been around. Yeah. Not that it's time for him to expire. God doesn't expire. Not at all. So once we find out those um those principles, which have always been, right? We can't change them. If we do if if we do so, it is to our own peril. True. They're principles that are eternal. You know, take for instance honor. Right? One of the reasons why the marriages today they seem to have a lot of problems, right? Is they don't understand honor. Because honor is it's a two-way floor. The husband is to honor his wife as the weaker vessel. The wife is to honor her husband as the head of the home. So there's meant to be a mutuality when it comes to honor. And honor simply means to treat something like it has value. In other words, you you you you you ascribe high value to something. If we go get into our homes and the husband values his wife, and the wife values her husband, we're not going to have divorce. No. Right? But then we need to know our various responsibilities and how we fit into the picture based on God's design. That way, I know exactly what I am valuing about you. You know, it's like the Bible says uh who finds a wife finds a good thing, favor. That's that's a huge statement. It is. Also, when I'm now looking at my wife, I'm looking at her as a good thing. You see? And I'm looking at her as someone who brought extra favor to my life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Why wouldn't I value her? You understand? When she looks at me, she sees someone who got brought into her life as a as a as a protection, yeah. As an agent of protection. You understand? Through someone who got brought into her life to protect her, to help guide the home. Then she has to value that. You understand? And that's it. So I think we need to take them back, the the younger generation. And they should not think that what they see on social media is a standard. They should go back. Our standard is we have only one standard. Just one. God's word. The Bible says looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. That's our standard. Not to what men have, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Now we we we have a lot, like for Nigeria, for example, the Nigerian church has a lot of youthful and young population. And uh there's a lot of energy out there. The question now is how do we get them into this discussion, honoring, sticking to the ancient path? Yeah, yeah. How do we do it?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think we have to go into their space. You know? Yeah. We shouldn't we shouldn't keep waiting for them to come come into our own space because as far as they're concerned, like you said, they see our space as old school because they don't understand. True. So we need to communicate and we need to find connection points. Yeah. And then we need to actually, and the key is not to judge them. They won't accept you, right? If they if if they sense that condescending atmosphere, or if they see your tone doesn't even have time for them, they won't accept you. They want someone who's going to be open enough to answer questions. That's what I found out. Yeah. Even with the teens in church, you know, every time I meet with them, I notice that, you know, if so long as I give them enough time to ask questions, they're happy. Very. They don't want me just come and just talk and go. You're very right on that. You're very right on that. And when they ask questions, then you perspire. You have to because they will go deep. They ask questions and they're very honest. True. Uh-huh. And those questions are valid qu you know, questions. So, so so I think that we have to have that kind of connection with them. You know, let's find a way to get into their. And also, you know, I feel like we see the kind of things they like, you know, in terms of uh technology, in terms of AI and all that. So we should also provide such platforms for them and use that as a as a connection point.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Fathers, fathers are, would I say, waking up to some realities based on what you just expressed now. They're waking up to some realities. I I want you to speak to fathers because from my understanding, I'm where I stand, what I see, the place of a father cannot be replaced. A home where the father is there. Something happened one day. So my wife told, I think that was our first son to do something. Yeah. You know, and I made light of it. She was mad with me. And I was like, Yeah, calm down. I was only joking. And I went back and called him. Do what your mommy said. But what I realized was, you don't know that you're reinforcing something. I gave him an order or an instruction. Wow, wow. I expected you to like that. Make sure you do that. Yeah. That's but you made light of it. Yeah. So tomorrow there's a way I may tell him something. He may just look like he'll look at me and look at her face. Wow. So how do we as fathers now grow up into that role and be there?

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's a that's a that's a that's a beautiful question. Uh and I I love the uh analogy, you know. I think that um we're still we're gonna have to fathers need to be trained, right? Right. A lot of people don't even think it's a very um high office to be a father. Because they haven't really been mentored, you know. So you have a lot of fathers who are really just fathers by title. They're not functional. Because that is a it's a high office. It is. It's a high office. And um, you know, the the word itself father actually means source, right? So obviously our heavenly father is ultimate source. But then he uses fathers in the homes, right, as an avenue, right, to convey things, right, yeah that actually can only be sourced by God.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So for instance, the the divine standard, right? We have to the only way to understand God's divine standard, right, is by looking at the home. Right? So we can see the home. And when it comes to father, the authority factor must never be underplayed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And that authority is the authority to set the standard. Yeah. Primarily. Yeah. So what happens is the children, like you said, the kids are looking at the father. Right? And they're learning so much by what the father does or doesn't do. So he's already setting the standard. Whether he likes it or not, he's gonna set a standard because of his office. His office is already ordained by God. So if if he's lousy in his office, that's the standard he's gonna set for the whole house. You know? So in this kind of situation now, right, uh, you find that it was now important for you to be sensitive of that environment. True, right? And not get so, you know, it's is it is easy to get, well, maybe you're tired, you just uh kind of drop your guard and not realize that when you do that at the wrong time, right, you're actually setting an example. Somebody's watching you, and they just assume, okay, maybe this is okay. Maybe it's okay to downplay on what mom has said. You know. But if, on the other hand, you know, you now, you know, always reinforce that, and even if you feel she's wrong, right, it is it is at a different place that you guys will discuss that. True. Not in front of the kids. Yeah. And that's uh something that uh, like I said, it's about uh being mentored. People need to be taught.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Um I've I've I for instance I've also found out that the the word in authority, the words that they speak has more weight than everybody else.

SPEAKER_02:

The one in authority.

SPEAKER_00:

One in authority. Because your words are coming from your office. Right? So I I tell husbands and wives, even when there's an argument, even if your wife said something that was wrong, you don't you don't react by saying something that is wrong. The weight of her words is not as heavy as your own. So if your wife calls you stupid, uh if your man who you know who you are, right, you are solid in your identity, it really doesn't affect you, etc. That you know, okay, maybe she needs to be to understand, or or I want to know why she would feel like that. I want to understand her. But if I call her stupid, it's a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_02:

Totally.

SPEAKER_00:

If I call her stupid, uh, I've released a force that can keep her in a place of stupidity. Stupidity. Wow. So so we have to be careful what we say.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, as as as those who are in authority. Right? We have to I I see I've I've counseled people, and sometimes they tell me that my husband just talks anyhow. When he's angry, he will just start releasing words, you know. That's because he doesn't know. He doesn't know that in his office you can't talk recklessly. You know, you have to you you actually have to be intentional when you are talking to your wife and to your kids, right? And then Satan, right, and and the spirit of darkness, right? Yeah they don't have any access, right, except through what you say, the the highest office. They can't just sneak in. You understand? They have to come through. So it is the man that opens the door as a man that shuts the door. You know, so it's a very, very um um important office, and I believe that there sh there is a resurgence of teaching about marriage, but particularly talking to men. You know, women have been talking to themselves for a long time now. They've been they have no problem talking to themselves. They've been men have not done as much as we should. You know, we need to actually talk to ourselves and be honest to say, listen, you know, these are areas we're not we're not doing things right, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

To would I say reinforce what you just said now, you know, in scriptures when Paul was talking to Timothy about letting no man despise thy youth. Yeah. It's coming from that father role.

SPEAKER_00:

He talked about your grandmother, your mother, I saw his defeat.

SPEAKER_02:

But now I am occupying the father rule, and I'm telling you, let no man despise your youth despise the youth. Because there was a day I sat in a teaching, and I was like, could be that Timothy had a father problem. And Paul was the one that fixed that. And your father. You know, so it's really, really like when you speak from that office of authority, it stays. Yeah. And I picked that word, training. Training. Training. I I know our fathers from traditional, when you go back in time and all that, you see where fathers train their sons to take over certain responsibilities and roles. Yes. I think that should come back. Should come back, yeah. It should come back where a father intentionally picks the son, not leaving the daughter behind now or the girl child now, but pick the children and begin to introduce them, letting them know who they are, speaking into their lives and all of that. You know, just it is so profound.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, we are very busy people. That's what we tell ourselves. We are very busy people.

SPEAKER_02:

Fast-paced.

SPEAKER_00:

How do we create this time? We have to, we don't have a choice. You know, one thing I found about life is, and my wife has really helped me to understand this, you know, is when you say you're too busy, you have to ask yourself, what are you busy with? What are you busy doing?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because maybe not everything you're busy with is important. Uh-huh. For instance, are you too busy to rest? As an example. If you're too busy to rest, according to what they say, they say you're resting, you're resting in peace. Rest in peace. Wow. So the thing is, we cannot use that as an excuse. We can't. We have to actually have to pause at some point and say, you know what? I can't just be going. I cannot just be going, you know? Because when you start going, uh, just going, right? What happens is it's as if they'll keep loading you.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

You know? And then you get busier and you get busier. At some point you have to pause and stop. And decide, you know what? I'll be busy, but I will be busy with the right things. The right thing. I can't say I'm too busy that I don't have time to sit down with my my my kids and talk with them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I can't say that. It's not it's not acceptable because that's that's part of my responsibility as a as a father. Right? So, yeah, so we have to pause and re-examine what we are busy doing. Right? We might need to knock some things out, we may need to decongest, right? And then restructure or reprogram, right? And factor in our families. Right? We must make time. Even if you're traveling, you know, there's a way you can still talk to your kids. Thank God for technology. True. You understand? True. You can maintain that communication.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I have a younger son now, you know. Yeah, yeah. I thought I was done. I thought I was done. You know, so somehow, you know how you feel, okay, we're done with that. Let's just then Matthew came. Matthew came to generation alpha. You understand? So Matthew has has has helped us.

SPEAKER_01:

We can imagine.

SPEAKER_00:

Reformats. Reformats. Everything is reformatted because it's a whole different generation. I have my next to Matthew is is my daughter, Christine, right? And they're seven years apart. They don't they don't they're not on the same frequency. She's Generation Z, I think. Yeah. He was generation alpha, and they're not on the same frequency. So you can imagine Gen Alpha is so different from the preceding generation. They're different. They think differently. And so, you know, I've had to sit down and just listen to him talk, you know, so I can even understand him. Because sometimes I like, I don't understand you all. I don't understand what is in your head. You understand? So now I've had to sit down, right? And just listen to him. Yeah. And I find out that it's people are people all.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

People have the same faculties, mental faculties, emotional faculties. It's just what they're exposed to. True. You understand? Yeah. And so I find that he is just as loving as anybody else. But you have to understand him. Right? You have to understand that they're they're of a different generation. True. And then you have to mentor him using the same principles, but just adapting it. Right? And then being able to understand and talk with them. I realize, you know what, you can't force, you know, you can't force a particular method. You know, the principle does not change. With the method, you know, we have to change, you know, the hairstyle. Yeah. Hairstyle is not the same.

SPEAKER_01:

Very true.

SPEAKER_02:

I can relate with that. Now we see that women have, I would say, let me not use the word wrongly, the power to help. Which that's what their role is. And I want you to speak to that with respect to men or the man occupying that role, the father taking that responsibility. What should the woman do?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um, I think that um, like you said, it's it's just a grace, you know. And just like the husband has his his own office, the wife has her own office. Yeah. And that office needs to be respected. You know, um, I don't see, for instance, why a man should be in the kitchen trying to figure out how much was spent on pepper. I'm just giving a wild example. Wild example, yeah. That that might be interference. You understand? Uh huh. Uh, you know, so I I think that um um that grace to help, right? If God did not feel that we needed help, he wouldn't have had to create a special office just to help us. Because that's what that's what her office is. And this help is spiritual, it's it's it's it's it's mental, it's it's emotional, and it's also physical.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? So we have to, the man, even though you're in authority, you have to be humble enough to receive help from your wife. Yeah. Or else, the reason why God sent her to you, you're cutting off the entire the benefit of that aspect of her life to you if you don't receive help from her. So we need to, you know, you know, encourage our wives. But we need to, like I said, always go back to God's word to bring the right balance. Like I've always said, you know, everybody has an opinion. Your wife should have an opinion, right? And you should respect it. But the wives should make sure they're not trying to force the husband to make decisions based on their own opinions. In other words, you offer your opinion, right? The helper should never force their help. Yeah, you don't force your help. You offer help. You don't force it. They don't force it. Once you're forcing the help, you're no longer a helper. Because you're trying to make them do what you want them to do. You are now the leader. You know? So, so the Ministry of Health is delicate.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You understand? You have to learn how to help your husband without putting him in a place where he's he finds it difficult to receive it because of the way you're pushing it on him. Because most men, right, once they feel that you're trying to force them to do something, right, they will draw back. And it's part of their own grace. Because a leader, a leader, you're you're built by God to lead. Right? So if somebody else is trying to lead in that sphere where God has placed you, naturally there'll be resistance. So don't force it. I tell wives, I say, listen, offer the opinion, offer your help, right? Right. And then draw back and pray. Let God convict him. Just like happened with Abraham. You understand? You know, if you look at that story, you see if you look at two different stories, Adam and Eve, then Abraham and Sarah, right? You'll see at one point, Sarah wanted Ishmael to leave. Because Ishmael was becoming uh a contradiction to Isaac. So she wanted Ishmael to leave, and that's not easy for Abraham. Ishmael is not Isaac, but he's he is still his son. Yeah. Blood blood, you know. So you can imagine his emotional attachment to uh to Ishmael. God now visits Abraham and tells him, Listen to your wife. In other words, she may be emotional, but what she's actually telling you to do is ordained. You know? So he did it because God said so. But he listened, at least he heard what his wife said. True. In the case of Adam and Eve, he listened, right? But he wasn't meant to do what Eve said. He was meant to do it. Yeah. He should have gone and prayed. And God has said, no, in this case, no. You listen, that's good, but don't do it. You know, so men have to learn how to listen. Listen to what she's saying, right? Yeah. Back to God. Back to God. The fact that you listened, you have shown her honor by listening.

SPEAKER_02:

Guys, we we we I mean, we've been discussing with Pastor Wandy, man talk. You will agree with me, it's been uh amazing. Uh as a man, I'm a man who supports the family. You know, when I when I thought of bringing Dr. Wandy on the show, I was like, okay, what do we discuss? Like I said, and this hit me so hard. You will agree with me. We we're hearing, it's as if we'll not be hearing these things, but we're seeing a different perspective to what you need to be trained. You speak from your office, the authority flows. The woman is to support, she's to provide that support, but you listen and you pray, you honor her by listening. Then your children, who you are to them. You're you are you are more or less like uh an enforcer in a good way. Your lifestyle, what you do, and how you do them gives this model. That's the right word to use to them. You will agree with me, we're having an amazing time. Pastor is busy. So he took out he took out a very vital time to come, I mean, uh to be with us on the show. So I won't keep him here for too long. But before I let him go, I would like to ask him this. I know everybody we're going through one thing or the other, but I need to ask him this. Is it right for a man to get married very young? Young, I mean, say maybe from 25, 26.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, there's nothing wrong with that. Really, it's not against the word of God. Um the it's it it's it all depends on how we measure uh youth, right? In terms of young and all. Uh maturity is uh is is the key word, right? You have people who are in their forties, but they're not mature. You talk to them and you can tell they're sound stable.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You have those who are much younger, but for some reason they've they've made up their minds to to be responsible. So they make decisions and they actually follow through, right? So they're responsible. So I I think each case is different. Yeah. Yeah. Um Kenneth Hagen got married at 21. Oh 21, you know. Uh back then, you know, and back then, obviously, uh they were matured, you know, uh faster. Yeah. They were younger. And you know, so but I still have met people today who I felt were mature enough and they were in the early 20s. Right? I know somebody who just got married, got he was he was like 24, 25, got married, and I had no problem with it at all. I felt he was mature. When I sit down and talk with him, I can see that you wouldn't even know his age, right? Unless it tells you. It tells you. And it tells me not to tell people just in case he's watching now. That's good. He's mature, yeah. So it's about maturity. Yeah. It's about the willingness to take responsibility. Maturity. Life, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, people. You're a young guy. Yeah. It's maturity. It's not about the number. Yes. It's not the number. I I know for me, I got married, I think, at 30. I told myself I was going to get married at 28. And my friends were like, 28? Why are you in a hurry or something? I mean, I said, no. I feel for me at that age is okay. But somehow I got married at the age of 30, and uh my first son is 15. Because I wanted it that way. Okay. I desired it. You know, it's like you're walking in the street and they ask, is that your friend? Or is that your brother? No, it's my son. That's my son. Yes. I was like, really? Yes. You know, and I guess maybe because my mom also got married early. So she tells us those. I mean, she used to tell us the stories and all of that. So it influenced me. I had to ask that question because a good number of young people out there are misplacing the, would I say, measuring uh stick. They either they're not looking at it from the place of maturity. Okay. They're looking at it from the place of economic or social pressure.

SPEAKER_00:

Pressure. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And the fall. Yeah. They fall prey. So don't get it wrong. Maturity also comes with economic You're right. You're right. Now, Pastor, I want you to speak to that because when we use the word maturity, certain people just see it in one box, not seeing that even the economic aspect is there.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's you're right, you're right. When we say maturity, obviously for you to have to have started taking responsibility, right? Right. It's going to show up in all areas of your life. Yeah. It's going to show up in your financial decisions. Yeah. Right? And if you make the right decisions, right, there will be elevation in those areas. True. So people who are mature, when we say maturity, right, we're not saying that someone is just emotionally mature, right? Right. And then that person is broke, then they should go and get married. Obviously, somebody who's mature knows, right? If I don't have any money right now, right, how am I going to take care of the woman I want to get married to? So the mature, that being mature in and of itself, right, helps you make right decisions. Right decisions. You know, somebody who is uh who doesn't have any uh, you know, and I'm being very blunt here, I just say money. You don't have money because you need money to rent a home. You're not gonna take your wife and put her under a bridge. You understand? So you don't have those resources flowing like you want them to flow, right? Right. If you're mature, you wait. You wait. Right. Yeah. So uh, you know, you know, so it's really um it it it's uh it affects every area. True. It affects your finances, right? It affects your um your ability to uh want to be stable. Right. You know, some people are still playing around, right? That's not maturity. You get to a point and you're like, what am I still running around looking for? I want to get married, build a home, have a family, right? Have a plan. Yeah. Mature people plan.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? You don't have a plan. You're not ready. You're not. You're not you're not mature. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Whoa. So, guys, you will agree with me. We've been having an amazing time with Dr. Andy. Uh these conversations are priceless. Maturity speaks to your financial, you're financially savvy, making the right decisions. You are not just, you know, playing around. You are focused because you have a plan. You know, the wise man said he who fails to plan has planned already to fail. So so you see that. And it's been amazing. I want to say a very big thank you. But before we let Pastor go, we have on the show, there is uh uh the way we do it here, yes, on the World Cafe, a token from us uh to Pastor, to our guests, each time we have them on the show is a lead to uh troll pillow. You can have it in your car, you can have it in your office, just to, you know, when you see it, okay, what's made? I was there. Exactly. I was there. Pastor, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming. We really appreciate it. We are grateful. Guys, like I told you, Pastor is very busy, but he's here with us and it means a lot to us. I am super excited. You know how we do it on the show, and we say it all the time. This is the space where we come in to lean on one on others' experience to do what? Forge a positive path. Yes, I would say this before I, you know, say bye. You know where you will catch us. We're available on all the social media platforms: Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, and yes, we have a YouTube channel. We're also on Spotify. Uh go ahead, hit that notification button. Are you following us? Go ahead and follow us so that you'll be the first to know when juicy topics like this drop and you'll be part of the conversation. Yes, part of what why we are here is because you are there. It means a lot to us. I have to go now. Yes. But you know how we say it on the show. Till I come your way again. My name is Amakri. Amakri is away. Bye for now. Pastor?

SPEAKER_00:

Bye.