S5 Ep. 294 Equality In Worth With Roles That Create Order

Hierarchy is one of those words that can shut people down fast, especially if they’ve lived through controlling bosses, broken politics, or family systems where power gets abused. We go a different route: we hold tight to the idea that every person has equal worth, while also insisting that real life requires hierarchy in function. When roles are clear and authority is accountable, work flows, decisions get made, and relationships stay mutual instead of turning into quiet resentment.

We walk through what hierarchy actually means and why it’s not the same thing as a pyramid with a tiny elite on top. Using stories and everyday pictures, we connect structure to outcomes: why delegation matters, how leadership works best when it is also “under authority,” and what happens when hierarchy gets twisted into corruption and power abuse. We even pull in systems thinking with simple examples like a circle rolling smoothly while a square keeps catching, plus a biology-based “lock and key” metaphor that shows how function follows structure.

We also talk about how hierarchy shows up across generations, especially in modern organizations where people from different decades work side by side. That’s where ideas like reverse mentoring make sense, not as a buzzword, but as a practical way to move value in both directions. We close with a challenge that lands hard: growth usually requires a force to push against, like gravity, and healthy structure can be that force without demeaning anyone.

If this makes you rethink authority, workplace culture, organizational structure, or leadership, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Pressure Builds Strength

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello there. Welcome to the World Cafe Live Show. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good everything. Wherever you are listening and seeing me this very hour. How are you doing? How are you? Has it been? Yes, leaving can be challenging, but it's part of it. That is what brings out the best. You know, just like when you heat up uh what do you call it? A bag, a tea bag. If you want to have the best of a tea bag, then the water must be hot. And it squeezes, brings out the juice and all of that. Life can be somewhat sometimes like squeezing you to bring out the best out of you. So do not give up. Put a smile on your face. Alright, then I'm happy coming back into this space.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Poo-poo-poo-poo-poo.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yes. I love. Do you like the way I look? Let me ask that.

Why Storytelling Makes Ideas Stick

SPEAKER_01 1:16

You know, just a thinking, doing things a bit different, you know, sitting in this in the studio and all. I love storytelling, and I know you know that. For me, I think when you bring any concept, any concept, no matter how complex it is, into the storytelling frame, you bring out the best meaning. You bring out the best that even an infant, a child, sees what you're saying, appreciates it, and all of that.

Equality In Worth Roles In Function

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Today I'm going to talk about hierarchy and structures. Hierarchy and structures. I've come to observe that our universe, our planet, our world is hierarchical. Yep, it's hierarchical.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Now, when I say is hierarchical, it's not pyramidal. Because what's a hierarchy in the first place? What's hierarchy? Growing up, I mean, I learned this from my pastor, uh Pastor Charles Amophama, he's translated, amazing man of God. He he taught me something that there's equality in worth in life, but hierarchy in function. I'll take that again. There's equality in worth, but hierarchy in function. To bring about order, we must recognize equality, but we must never lose sight of hierarchy. Hierarchy brings about seamless flow. It brings about order. It brings about where everything should be in synergy, bringing about the balance and the flow of life. Now, when hierarchy is twisted, that's where you begin to have power.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Abuse of power. And the minute abuse of power comes into play, what happens?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Corrupt, corrupt, corrupt practices, corruption is sin. So we come to see that equality is abused because hierarchy was ignored, or hierarchy was, I mean, found, we found some form of corruption in hierarchy.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So you ask yourself this question.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So is it necessary? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And I'll pick it up from this.

Authority Explained Through The Centurion

SPEAKER_01 4:31

You know, when I was preparing for this conversation, I I uh not stumbled. This scripture came to my mind. You know, this the scripture of the centurion who came to Jesus about his servant.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

And when Jesus said to him, I'll come, he said, Don't come, just speak.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

He made a statement that was so powerful, he said, I am a man under authority. I say to those under my structure, under my hierarchy, they go, I see you too to be a man under authority. And I believe it if you speak as you're standing here, things will happen. And Jesus looked at him, was like, Wow, he has never seen such an understanding of faith and structure and system. And Jesus said to him, Go. Jesus gave the word. So, more or less, like, I use that to explain structure and hierarchy. Because that goes to underscore that hierarchy is all about authority. It is all about power being balanced where it should be.

Hierarchy Is Not A Pyramid

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Now, if you look at when I say that, I'm not talking about pyramids. There's this always, whenever you talk about structure hierarchy, what comes to people's minds is top-down approach. You know, you have the pyramid, like a triangle, the tip. The bees is so broad. Why the tip is too small, and you have one few people, the one percent sit there, as it were, in controlling things. That's not what I'm talking about. No, I'm talking about hierarchy that speaks to order, where things are ordered, and because they are ordered, there is this flow of authority. And you see things happen. So when you look at organizations, this is in building an organization.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

This is, in my opinion, the first thing that is considered or that should be considered hierarchy. Hierarchy, structure. How are we going to structure this organization to have a power flow in terms of delegation, you know, or you give authority?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Because the way the world is designed, someone must take the lead.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And in taking lead, is pointing to what? Authority. So if you look at the society, we always have a structure, hierarchy.

The Sun As A Picture Of Order

SPEAKER_00 7:57

You see, when the dawn breaks, the sun rises, what happens?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Things begin to move, responding to the sun, as it were, like the authority of the sun. Yes, the sun has an authority. How do you mean everything on planet Earth rises and aspires to the strength of the sun?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

The sun brings about the movement, the sun brings about the energy. So we aspire. The plants aspire. That's how you now come to look at the ecosystem, as it were, or the cycle of the earth. Or you come to see the different strata. You come to see the different relationships. Now,

When Structure Turns Parasitic

SPEAKER_01 8:55

when you observe that, when hierarchy is not respected or maintained, like I said, abuse comes to play. And the next thing you see in the relationship is it's no longer a mutual relationship. It now becomes, it's not a symbiotic relationship now, it now becomes a parasitic relationship.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And parasitic relationship does not speak of progress.

Learning To Submit Without Losing Value

SPEAKER_00 9:30

There are some of us, we find it difficult functioning in a hierarchy. You must learn to function in hierarchy.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Sometimes you see people who are leading you, be it in business, be it in politics, be it in family life, you have this what I call a bad feeling. You fight against authority figures.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

No, it's not for your good. It's not for your good. A very good example is also when you look at when Jesus was to be crucified.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

You had the conversation, if you go read it, the conversation between Jesus and Pilate. The conversation again between Jesus and John the Baptist.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Imagine Christ the Savior subjecting himself to John the Baptist to be baptized. That is structure, hierarchy, order being maintained.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

When Pilate wanted to push it further, what did Jesus tell him? You don't have power over me.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

We are only playing following the order. The structure.

Generations Reverse Mentoring And Value Flow

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Now, if you look at every given society, we have different generations and timelines coexisting in that space. You have like those who were born in the certain timeline, like from the 60s, those who were born in the 60s, those who were born in the 70s, those who were born in the 80s, those who were born in the 90s, those who were born in the 2000. So if you look at the society now, you begin to see different timelines. But again, what brings the beauty out of these different timelines, you come to see how they are structured hierarchically speaking. Not in terms of superiority now, but in terms of value flow. So you see some organizations embracing the older generation because they know that the younger generation will learn from them. So they now have things like reverse mentoring, where the younger generation is now mentoring the older generation, knowing that the older generation in that process will bring in value to them.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

But if you don't understand hierarchy, you'll find it difficult to operate.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Very, very difficult. You will have struggle with power, subjecting or submitting, I beg your pardon, not subjecting, submitting. You'd always want to see it from the point of view of if it's not me, it's not going to be you. So you must understand

Structure Determines How Systems Perform

SPEAKER_01 13:20

that. Structure. Now, you know that how effective a system works, how effective an organism works is dependent on how structured it is. If you look at a square and a circle disc, roll them on the same plane, what do you think will happen? The circle disc will flow easily because of how it is structured, while the square will just fall. So you also have to be intentional in structuring. How do you want it to be? You must be

Enzymes Show Why Fit Matters

SPEAKER_01 14:03

intentional. I remember one of the courses we did back in school, one of my professors, Professor Annasiki, when we're talking about uh catalysts, you know, enzymes. I was really taken aback because I mean primary biology, enzymes, other enzymes, they help in the speeding, speeding up of uh reactions. They're like catalysts, they push things to happen quicker. But when I went into structure of enzymes, looking at it from that microscopic or quantum level, how lock and key that the enzymes will function as lock and key. So they will go from that structure and bind to a mirror of itself. So you have structure and activity taking place. And it's like, wow. So if you now blow it, bring it up to the bigger or higher resolution, it's the same thing. The same thing. An organization that is not well structured, a society that is not well structured, all you will see play out is imbalance.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Inbalance, things begin to like flow the other way around.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

So you must take it into cognizance. Hierarchy and structure brings about a balance. Don't forget this. If you don't have any, if you didn't take anything from this episode, don't forget this. There's equality in worth. There is hierarchy in function. What does that mean? We are all human beings. We are equal. Yes, we are in our value, in our worth. But when it comes to function, we all have our role. There's a hierarchy. It brings about order. All right, guys, that's what I came to do on the show today. So don't fight it. If you are into HR, your sea suit, as the case may be, relax.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Hierarchy helps authority. See it differently. See it differently. Hierarchy helps authority.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Those who work effectively in any system understands hierarchy. They don't subject, they submit. They know

Gravity Growth And The Final Reminder

SPEAKER_01 16:58

that. Because to get the best, if you must get the best from life, you must subject yourself to gravity. You know, we're made to understand that gravity brings us to the center of the earth. That's the definition, that force that brings it to the center of the earth. But do you know that without gravity, we can't grow? Plants will not grow. Uh-huh. I don't want to go into the biology of that so that you will not say, are you leaving the world caffeina for biology? Well, I'm a trained biochemist, so when I begin to explain certain concepts, I come from those angles. So for you to grow, there must be a force exerting on you. And you are using the force, the advantage of the force to pull yourself up. That is what hierarchy is.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

That is how I see it.

Subscribe And Stay Connected

SPEAKER_01 17:59

So, all right then, guys, we're available, yes, you know, on all social media platforms. It's always it always a joy coming in here talking to you. So we're available there. X, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn. We're there. We also have a YouTube channel. Have you subscribed? Please do subscribe and be the first. Hit that notification button. Be the first, you know, to be notified when such episodes like this drop. It's always fun coming into the space. Yes, this is the space where we come in to lean on one another's experience to forge a positive path. Till I come your way again. My name is Amakri. Amakri is away.

unknown 18:49

Bye for now.