Shane Benzie | From sharks in the wild to humans running 'wild'

Shane Benzie is a celebrated coach & bestselling author who is on quest to change the way the world moves. After my brother recommended I get Shane on the show I started looking into his work and couldn’t wait to find out more about his research on how western cultures cultivate a hindrance on the way our bodies move and how we need to come back to a more natural form for the sake of our health.  This episode will change the way you walk and run … honestly it is such an eye opener! 

Find Shane on Instagram - @Shane.benzie

Shane’s website- https://runningreborn.com

Shanes book ‘ The’ lost art of running’ - https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-lost-art-of-running/shane-benzie/tim-major/9781472968081

This series is proudly sponsored by Cotswold Outdoor, the outdoor experts working to change the fabric of outdoor retailing. Find out more about their sustainability mission and services on their website.

If you have any questions or would like to suggest a guest please get in touch! You can email India via indiapearsonclarke@gmail.com or send a message via Instagram  @india_outdoors / @finandflow / www.indiapearson.co.uk

~Music - Caleb Howard Almond ~

You can find this episode on iTunes, Spotify and many other podcast platform

If you have any questions or would like to suggest a guest please get in touch! You can email India via indiapearsonclarke@gmail.com or send a message via Instagram @india_outdoors / @finandflow / www.indiapearson.co.uk

~Music - Caleb Howard Almond / @oakandalmondcarpentry

Transcript

India Pearson  0:01  
Hello, I'm India and welcome to the second series of the starter rebel podcast. This series is proudly sponsored by Cotswold outdoor, the outdoor experts working to change the fabric of outdoor retailing. And you can find out more about their sustainability mission and services on their website. Now, this podcast is a platform for me to chat with inspiring folk that are making ripples in their lives by moving in nature. And I'm here to find out a little bit more about how this connection with movement and nature is having an impact on their mind, body and the environment to and I hope the conversations that come from this podcast will encourage you to get outside, move, dream big, and see what happens from the ripples you create. Alright, it's time to introduce my guest. Shane benzie is a celebrated coach and best selling author who is on a quest to change the way the world moves. After my brother recommended I get Shane on the show. I started looking into his work and couldn't wait to find out more about his research on how Western cultures cultivate a hinderance on the way our bodies move, and how we need to come back to a more natural form for the sake of our health. This episode will change the way you walk and run. Honestly, it's such an eye opener. Cool. So hi, Shane, and thanks for coming on the star to rebel podcast. My pleasure. Thanks for the invite. Oh, it's brilliant having you here. So I'd like I always like to start this podcast by asking you, you know, where did your ripples begin and your journey, how you've come to where you are right now.

Shane Benzie  1:45  
Okay, so, so I was a runner, I still am a runner. And I used to be an ultra runner running long distances. And I kind of had two big problems that many runners have is that I kept getting injured. And I just wasn't getting any better. No matter how hard I tried, I just didn't seem to get much better at it. So I decided to kind of go on a journey to find a better way for me to run. And you know that I guess the journey started with the internet like everything does. And I was confused with lots of different sorts of information. And it involved biomechanics, and treadmills and stuff like this, I got really confused. And, you know, I thought in the end, you know what, I'm just gonna go and find the best runners in the world and see how they run, see how, what they're doing, and see if I can emulate them. And that was about 10 years ago. And I'm still on this journey. It's an amazing journey. So hopefully, I'm only about halfway through or maybe even a third. Yeah, seeking what I call beautiful movement, trying to understand what it is. And now I've become a coach and I now coach what I find to runners all around the world.

India Pearson  2:55  
Yeah, I think it's interesting that your journey started from injury. And I know that, you know, I have dipped in dad with running, I have as a child, I loved it. 800 metres 1500 metre runner, and then came out of it, and then kind of got back into it doing 10 Ks, then came out a bit, then training for the marathon. COVID hit didn't do it. And but during that time, I have also had injuries. And I know that's a topic that comes up a lot with running is that a lot of people say actually running is not good for you. And so when I've been researching what you've been doing, a lot of stuff has come from the fact that our western world or Western culture is actually creating a hinderance on the way we're running, which is why maybe it's we think it's not good for us, you know? And I'd like to sort of kind of dive into that a little bit more.

Shane Benzie  3:49  
Yeah, sure. So, yeah, so in travelling around the world, for the last 10 years, I've looked at athletes all around the world. But I've also spent a lot of time living with and studying tribes and indigenous people as well. So people in rain forest jungles, Arctic, sohara, all in the Himalayas, all around the world, looking at how people move, who aren't necessarily runners, but do some amazing movement skills in their everyday life. So really trying to understand what human movement is about. And I think probably two of the biggest influences on our movement. And actually two of the biggest challenges we have in the Western world are, the way we perceive our movement has a huge bearing on how we actually move. And you might think as I walked, you know, I don't really have a perception of my movement, I just run. But we all do have a perception of our movement, even if it's a subliminal one. And our perception of our movement is one that's based on biomechanics. Okay, so I think we view ourselves in quite a mechanical way when we move and this was one of the big problems I first had when I went on to my journey to try and find a better way to move. So we all grow up with our movement. being explained to us through biomechanics, which is essentially the way engineers talk about movement. But you know, we're not machines, we're very synergistic connected fluid and elastic in our movement. Or at least we could be, if we felt, that's how we move. So that perception has is a real challenge for us. And of course, if I travel around the world and look at how people move in different environments, they often move in a more fluid way than we do, because they haven't been told that they can't, they haven't been, they don't know what biomechanics is. So they move with, you know, unhindered by thought process, whereas we, we kind of sometimes overthink it, or have been fed a version of something that might not necessarily enhance the amazing attributes that humans were given. So that's the first one. And then the second one is, actually, our dynamic movement is always going to be an extension of our everyday movement. So if you put a pair of trainers on and go out for a run this evening, actually, the sea of tension that you take out, the posture that you take out into your run, is one that you've created throughout the day, and that could be sat at a desk all day, you know, and that's where many of us are now is sitting in front of some kind of screen, all day and evening. And that creates a really strange sea of tension that actually, our species was never really designed to take. So there are two really big challenges.

India Pearson  6:25  
And it's really interesting, you say that I'm a yoga teacher. And I see that, in my classes, I even see, obviously, I've been teaching mainly on zoom this year, I can see it through like these little screens on zoom, you know, people are coming straight from their desk, to the cloth, and then their shoulders are up by their ears. There, I do a lot of stuff, actually the wrists and sort of fingers and hands, because they're sort of creating this, this motion of their typing all the time. And, you know, in, we need to, I'm always talking about the fact we need to create full mobility in the body, because we're working in quite a linear way, in the Western world. And we actually need to be moving a little bit more naturally, because that's what we would naturally be doing way back when, when we were, you know, running for for our prey or running away, even. And, and yet, we will be moving more laterally looking behind us would be, you know, incorporating these twists and stuff because we just don't do it.

Shane Benzie  7:24  
No, you're right. And you know, this, so this persistence hunting kind of, you know, it's, it's pretty well known now that we're going to use to earn our living by running and walking and catching things. We know that was as little as 15,000 years ago. And so that we came away from that hunter gathering type thing, and then kind of became farmers, you know, then the Industrial Revolution came along, and now the technological revolution. So we're really we're an animal that in the last 15,000 years has gone through a huge change. And we we just like almost like fish out of water, we really haven't had time to adapt anywhere near adapt to this now very strange situations that we find ourselves in. But I think it's the way we the way in which we perceive our bodies really important, because I think if we had the right perception of our body, we would take on the challenges of that everyday movement in a slightly different way. And so when I'm working with athletes, and when I say athlete, that's anybody that runs and walks you know, if you're doing something athletic, then to me, you're an athlete. And so I work with them on this concept of tensegrity. Okay, and so tensegrity, or bio tensegrity, for a human is this concept that the 206 bones in your skeleton are essentially floating. Okay, no bone in your body touches another bone. If it did, it would hurt. your bones are essentially floating in a sea of elasticity created by your tendons and your ligaments and your Maya fascia. So when you move, your skeleton is just free flowing 206 individual bones free flowing in a sea of elasticity. Now, if you know that, that would really inspire you to want to create nice, tall, elegant positions to to maximise the elastic energy in the body. But it might get you thinking differently about how you sit and how you stand and how you interact during the day. Because if you think you're kind of a clunky skeleton, that's a structure, you might think you could sit there all day, stand up at the end of the day, stretch your spine out, and then you're fine. But if you if you imagine that actually your skeleton is floating in a sea of elasticity, which is constantly forming itself, and you know, it's never more than seven months old, actually this system, you take a lot more care about putting it into beautiful positions, both at home in the office, as well as doing something dynamic.

India Pearson  9:45  
that's changing that visualisation that we have that one yeah, absolutely interesting. And, and I found this quote that was in athletics weekly tribes and indigenous people are fascinating because they haven't been subjected by mechanics, and they don't have any preconceived ideas of how humans move, they just move. And it's invariably better. And is this because they're they are moving for, you know, a purpose as in they're moving to get from A to B that have cars and things like that they're moving to to get food, whereas we are sort of made to move in the Western world to be fit, you know, yeah. And that changes the mindset of that you feel like you have to move not as a chore. But sometimes it can seem like that, rather than moving, because it just serves a really powerful purpose within our day to day lives.

Shane Benzie  10:47  
Yeah, I agree. You know, we almost we're almost prescribed exercise like medicine, aren't we that, you know, we're known. And that can be, that can be difficult, because that you could then be forgiven for really not doing much for 23 hours of the day. And then just doing a little bit of exercise, as part of as part of that day is almost like taking medicine so that everything else is wiped out. So yeah, I think what we need to do is start treating our movements, in any any movement that you'd like a skill, because so if you're a yoga teacher, so if somebody comes to your class, and they will be able to sue, and I'm sure that when people do come to you, they're coming to perfect a skill, aren't they, they're practising their skill, it's a great example of somebody coming in wanting to protect their skill, very often, yeah, we just treat it as a means to an end. So I think any any movement skill that we do any sport that we do, if we treat it as a skill and want to get better and better at it, then we'll, we'll think more about it. Because, you know, you could excuse me, you could go for a run every day. And by the end of the year, you would be better at running by default, you would be better at it. But actually, if you thought about it, as well as doing it, then you will maximise your potential because you're going to treat it as a skill and try and get a little bit better added every time. So I think that's what we need to do is think about movement as a skill, rather than just doing it because we promised ourselves that we would.

India Pearson  12:17  
And I think what I find really interesting about what you're talking about is the fact that I know I started this podcast, because I'm fascinated with the power of moving in nature and how it changes your, your mindset, and you're talking about moving naturally, you know, so it's it all comes round, it's all come sort of round, full circle really can can our environment, then it changed the way that we're moving, you know, if we're running around a city or even a running track, for example, does that change the way that we're moving compared to? If we're running, I don't know, trail running and or where we're outside and in more sort of hostile environments?

Shane Benzie  12:57  
Well, I think, yeah, clearly, when you run, you, you run, if you're running well, then you're kind of interacting with the environment that you're running through. So you would move differently on a technical trail than you would if you were just running on a on a road or a track. But I think the way you know that, there's a way a human was designed to run. And we can actually do that on any surface and in any environment. So anybody who's who's listening to the podcast, can go out and run and treat running as a movement skill. wherever they are, you don't you know that there are no limitations to that at all. And it's really interesting what you're saying about, you know, the mind and movement. I think one of the big things we get slightly wrong about movement when we're running and maybe other tasks as well, is that if you go if you change your movements tomorrow, so let's say you listen to this podcast or right, like I'm going to go out for a run tomorrow, and I'm going to, I'm going to change the way I move. If you change the way you move, you're not creating new muscle memory that we often we hear the term muscle memory a lot. And we think that we're teaching our muscles new tricks. Well, really, muscles don't have a memory, they don't really know what they did this morning, they don't make decisions. Actually, it's our brain are very clever software that actually makes the movement, the hardware, the physical body just follows what the software tells it to do. So if you go out and start to change your movements, you're actually rewriting your software. And I think that's really exciting. And then the body, the physical body does the task that it's asked to do. And it will get stronger, and it will get good at that task. But changing things is a software change. And so that means you don't have to see yourself as strong or super fit to change your movement or to change your lifestyle. Because actually, it's a software tweak, and that means anybody can do it, and the body will pretty quickly start to adapt to that task. So you can come from, you know, from any position, you can start from anywhere, you don't have to be fit and strong to start doing something dynamic. And I'm sure you would see that in your yoga.

India Pearson  15:09  
Oh, absolutely. And I think is sort of really interesting when you when you think about that that mindset thing, because I know every time that I've gone out running, I have this voice in my head. That's that to begin with, it's hanging out with you. But it's great that you join it. And then I get this voice that goes, What are you doing? Oh, my goodness, why are you not going? Why not start this over? Why put yourself through this by pushing myself or even if I'm sort of doing, I don't know, when I've sort of competed and competed, but entered myself into things like 10 Ks, you've chosen to do this, you're paying to do this? You know, you sort of go through this whole mental cycle with it. But actually, there is a side there is also a side where you can you find yourself in this complete flow sequence. And that's been, for me, that's always been when I've been out sort of running in the woods or something like that, where I can really absorb myself in the environment that I'm in as well. And I think it does affect the way that I am my sort of posture and the way that I'm running to because I'm, I don't feel quite as tense when I'm in those environments.

Shane Benzie  16:15  
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, it's really interesting. So, you know, I think sometimes we forget that we're an animal. And as an animal, we have something called a perception of effort. Okay, all animals have it all predators have it. And as humans, we're hardwired to go to the path of least resistance. So we're kind of hardwired to be lazy, essentially, to not waste energy. Because our brains as our brain hasn't really caught up with the fact that we can go to mini tescos and get a sandwich anytime we want, it still thinks that we have to save energy, because we may have to go and run and chase our food. So when you start to do something dynamic, if the brain starts to work out, there's no good reason for you doing what you're doing. As far as the brain is concerned, it will try and shut you down. And it does that by raising your perception of effort. So you think you're working much harder than you actually are. Because you're very clever, cunning brain knows that that will just get you to sit down and save energy. But if you persist with it, and then you move through it, it'll, it'll it'll let you carry on that initially. Yeah, doesn't want you doing that doesn't want you wasting energy. And, and then and then the second point is really interesting. So I think if you looked at 100, photos of 100, people, you'd be able to guess their emotions, by their posture in that photograph, pretty much. And so you know, so our posture is definitely an extension of our emotions. And actually, for humans, it's really interesting, if a human is in trauma, what we actually do to deal with that trauma is to fall in on ourselves and, you know, kind of almost protect our vital organs close in into that embryo position, to protect ourselves. And so, um, being exhausted, can be really an atraumatic, there's, there are levels of trauma, but there's no doubt if we're not feeling the love. And we're not enjoying ourselves, our emotion governs our posture, which is to close in on ourselves. And that makes everything really difficult. Whereas if you are running through a forest or along the beach or something like that, and you you're really enjoying it, you will open up a lot more, and the posture will be better. And that makes the whole movement better, because you're now loading this beautiful elastic system that does a lot of the work for you. So emotions definitely govern posture, and posture definitely governs how well we move.

India Pearson  18:37  
Yeah, that's really interesting. So what kind of, if you can sort of be able to give someone like me, he's not, he doesn't run I did, I sort of come back in and out of it. Some tips on thinking about my posture when I'm running, in order to really feel like I am in that sort of optimum place of being really natural when I'm running. Because that's what we really want to get to is it doesn't really feel like a chore if we're outdoors and we're running and want to feel like it's fluid. What What advice can you give me?

Shane Benzie  19:09  
Wow. Okay. So I think that these days, over the last quite a few years, good running has been seen as the ability to move over the ground and save energy or not use energy, okay? Whereas I see beautiful running as the ability to move over the ground and create energy, elastic energy, your relationship with the ground has a huge bearing on how well you run. And as a human, when you hit the ground, you've got around about two and a half times your body weight coming back at you. Okay? So Newton's third law, any action is met by an equal and opposite. So for a human when you hit the ground, you have two and a half times your body weight coming back at you. Now that sounds really alarming. But actually, it's a beautiful thing. Because that impact coming back at you, turns into elastic energy and throws you forward. So it's Mother Nature at her most genius, you run over the ground, you hit the ground, you create elastic energy, you store it, and then it throws you forward. So if you really start to get the hang that that's the case, you will move differently over the ground, we try and almost shop on over the ground, create no air and no impact, that they're the two things that actually propellers. So one of the big things to think about is how your foot lands on the ground. Okay. And what I kind of talked to my runners about my athletes is what's called a tripod landing. And that's essentially if you think about the bottom of your foot, and you drew a tripod on the bottom of it, it would go from the heel, up to the big toe, from the big toe across to the underneath a little toe, and then back down to the heel again, so you've got a tripod on the bottom of your foot. If you get that tripod landing, then you harness that elastic energy that you create when you hit the ground. That's really, really important. Probably 85% of runners tend to land on their heel on a pretty straight leg. And so we never really harness that elastic energy. Second thing to think about is something I call the centre line, okay, and it's a made up line, it's not an actual line of elasticity. But it's a line that you can visualise when you're running. And if you imagine a line that runs from your belly button, up through your abdomen, up through the chest, underneath the chin, to the top of your head. And when you run, if you open up a bow, if you put a bow into your chest, and open up that centre line, that gets you nice and tall, it gets your upper body over your centre of gravity, so that gravity starts to help you. It also brings those hips forward and gets that pelvis into a nice neutral position as well. So just running and opening up the upper body and opening up that centre line and putting a bow into it changes your posture completely.

India Pearson  22:03  
Yeah, that's really interesting, actually, because I often talk about my go class that leading with your heart centre, about creating the energy and if you sort of shoulders back, lead with your heart centre, lift your heart, your heart to high it, this sort of price point almost creates a circulation, it starts pumping around your body more gives you more energy. And it sort of feels that there's a relationship between both kind of what you're saying as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, definitely without a doubt. Yeah. And I think that's, that's it totally makes sense when you're talking about and actually, I know that I've seen you on your Instagram talking about this bow, and you've got clients talking about it, and how dramatically affect it affects them. And, and when you look at professional runners, you can actually see that O'Shea con you.

Shane Benzie  22:55  
Absolutely Yeah, you definitely can. Yeah, without a doubt, and, and really might. So for my work, it's 10 years of travelling and research and coaching and stuff. And then really what I'm trying to do is distil this down. So that with some pretty simple cues, because I think we said sometimes we just overcomplicate things. And really, we just need a few simple cues that if you do them, it gets everything into the right place. And that centre line, honestly, it's again, it really is a game changer. And I you know, I want it run all of my runners to the moment they start to run is that open up that body and open up that centre line, and I get them to imagine it as a colour that line and even give it a name. So it kind of is your running buddy, you know, wherever you go, you immediately open up into that beautiful, elegant, elegant is the word we tend to stick a pair of trainers on and just try really hard when we run and tough it out. Whereas we know why why can't running be a sequence of elegant moves that propels our body. Just like yoga, or just like martial arts or ballet. Why does running have to be a blood and guts thing? I don't think it does. You know, I think we can do it and treat it as a sequence of beautiful moves. Yeah, I

India Pearson  24:05  
know. That was one of I saw I was watching one of your videos on your Instagram from a client and she was talking about her bow and she called it a flow bow. And she said it was a colour of green because it felt so natural. Which is so you know, so amazing. Now, just a moment ago, you were talking about your research and where you've gone with that and where it started. And I know that when I've been looking into your background, you're not something I'm quite fascinated by the fact was that your research started with sharks. Yeah. Which is amazing. So I just I think this is really fascinating subject and yeah, I'd love for you to talk to us a little bit more about that and, and how it's connected with what you're doing right now. That doesn't seem to be a connection. Yeah, I know how I'm gonna segue this one into the sharks.

Shane Benzie  24:56  
Yeah, so I spent a lot of time with sharks and a lot of time in the world. Also with sharp studying, trying to understand more about them, I was a director of the shark Conservation Society. So I spent a lot of time all around the world looking at sharks. And, and I became absolutely fascinated with them, because they are just incredible movers the sharks, because they've been around for about 400 million years, okay. And really all they do is swim around, eat and have baby sharks. That's kind of what it that's what a shark does, and its environment really hasn't changed that much in 400 million years at all. Whereas obviously, ours has changed rapidly a number of times over the last 15,000 years. So spending time in the water with sharks, I got to really study them and become fascinated by their movement and how efficient that movement was dynamic when it needed to be very efficient. And, and so when I started my journey to study runners, it made total sense to me to actually study them study you humans as a species, rather than athletes. Because I worked on the thought process. Well, you know, if you move the way a human is designed to move, by default, that's going to make you a good athlete. And so that was really that was that was my, that's kind of where the link is, I guess, is yes, studying sharks as animals, and then really studying humans as animals as well. And working out how to harness that natural movement. And then how to turn that natural moment into into human performance. I'm actually just preparing as soon as I can travel, to go off and spend some time actually with orcas with killer whales, too, because they're beautiful movers, but actually work amazingly well as a group. And I think one of the big things that we're losing these days is our interaction with each other as a group, as a tribe, as a community. And actually, that has profound effects on our movement as well. They might not think it but it really, really does.

India Pearson  26:59  
And in what, in what way?

Shane Benzie  27:01  
Well, I think, you know, if I if I sum when I go to East Africa, and I spend time in the running camps in East Africa, for example, where some of the best runners in the world are, and everyone always says all you know, what makes the Africans amazing runners? Is it running out of poverty? Is it altitude? Is it bare feet, diet, genetics, all of these things are a thing. But I think the biggest thing is actually the power of the group, where they push each other very hard in their training and their racing, but they're also there to put their arm around each other and really help each other. I think that's incredibly powerful. And I think we're losing that. I think we're losing that in modern Western society. Maybe social media is the new tribe. And you know, we don't really work together. So I'm really keen, you know, a lot of my research now is obviously still into movement, but is looking at other effects on that movement. And I think the power of the group, how we interact together is huge in that so and I'm but I'm keen to keep the animal link as well. So going and spending time with killer whales and orcas who are fantastic. Hunting as a group and living and working together as a group will remind me that we are just a species. And that's a really good way of kind of kicking off that research,

India Pearson  28:16  
or because we're only spotted in korbel this week.

Shane Benzie  28:21  
When I go, Okay, I'm going to be doing it in Norway, which is actually pretty close. Because most of my stuff with with the great whites and the tiger sharks is kind of Africa. So actually, Norway's it's kind of almost home, it kind of feels pretty close. Yeah,

India Pearson  28:37  
I think that's, I think that's so interesting that you treat human species as a species. No. We do we disconnect from that. And I guess a lot of you know, what I've found with the more that I've moved, started moving in nature and, and sort of really compressing that is the more that I feel connected to this natural world, and I feel part of it, and I want to protect it and and it's interesting that you've you've come from it from a different angle that you've stopped, you were doing the protecting side and looking after the marine life and then it led you to discover the movement and take you into it. So it's a different angle on it. And I think that's really, really fascinating. And we can learn so much from this natural world that we just ignore,

Shane Benzie  29:28  
you're almost trying to disassociate ourselves from I think most of us don't even consider or admit that we are an animal we almost think we're above that. But But we but we are we just have dexterous thumbs and pretty big brains. And so we've gone on and done other stuff on whether we've been more successful is debatable, but, you know, but we now seem to have this feeling that maybe we're we're not an animal at all, and we don't certainly don't live that life anymore. And as an animal we've we've we've kind of hardwired To save time and save energy, and we've actually taken that to the eighth degree now by inventing all of this stuff, which means we don't have to burn any calories at all, everything is done for us. So we're almost becoming a victim to a degree of the way our brain works, because we're now becoming very immobile. Because this, this need in us to save energy, we've, we've just taken it to the extreme. And I think we've got to rewrite that, I think and rethink that. Because we've kind of got Stone Age brains, but in a space age world, and we've got to kind of kick back a little bit and get moving a little bit more. And because, you know, if you just ran around the park, you know, you'd load you'd load bones, you'd break down faster, you'd break down muscle fibres. And then when you go to bed, go to sleep and recover the remodelling the re architecting and the rejuvenating takes place. So you wake up better than next day able to do the task based on what you did the day before. And that constant recycling of the body rejuvenating and re architecting of the body that happens throughout all of your life. Literally the last day you have on the planet, you're still doing that. And I think we tend to think sometimes that we might get to a certain age and think oh, well, I didn't do it when I was younger, and I haven't got the muscle memory I hear all the time. And you know, I that's it. My time has gone. Your body is constantly adapting to the task that you do every day forever.

India Pearson  31:29  
Yeah, and I i So one thing that I do want to talk to you about, which is I guess where I it feels like we've taken running to the next level, but I think it's actually taking it back to the basics a little bit is ultra running these ultra marathons. So because you look at it from the offset, and you'll go, Oh, those people are mad. They're running all these crazy miles and these like, you know, crazy inhabitable places. But actually, when you start reading into it, I know that ultramarathons have kind of gone a little bit, commercialised, but the the grounding of them was very small groups of people who just wanted to get back to the wrongness of running in natural environments. And I'd love to hear your opinions and ultramarathons because I know, it's become very popular recently. But do you? Do you believe that what it stems from is, is is our sort of need to connect with these hostile environments that are that sort of put us back into these, I guess, sort of fight or flight modes?

Shane Benzie  32:40  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, it's not odd that we like to get into groups and run around, because actually, that's kind of in our DNA, that's what we would have done is get together collectively as a group. And I think back in the day, when we would have kind of interacted as a tribe, there may have been around about 150 others. And above that, we would then splintered off actually in going into different tribes, because after about 150, we kind of lose that ability to communicate well. So but yeah, that's what I think that's why we like to get together in groups and run because it's, it's kind of in our DNA. And the ultra running scene has absolutely exploded. And that's what I used to do. When I when I was running, I still do, I still ride don't race anymore, but I still do run and I've done sort of distances up to 194 miles straight, without stopping. And so I think ultra ultra is give you the ability to really step into the abyss and test your body and test your mind. And they do take you to some amazing environments as well. And I think that's great, because I think sometimes our lives get a bit safe. You know, and we're busy. And we're rushing around, but you know, in a relatively conformed way, and we're pretty safe. And you know, you can do a marathon or a 10k or Park one, which was fantastic. But you kind of know you're going to finish those, I think. Whereas with the ultras, you're sort of stepping into the abyss of it, and not really knowing what's going to happen. You're not really looking for PBS in ultras because they're normally very different in different environments, so that there's nothing to base it on. And so yeah, I think that that an ultra is probably the thing that gets us back to our base as much as any running camp, and a lot of them multi day ultra. So you can be out for five days in the jungle or the desert or Arctic conditions and stuff like that, that that really gets you moving and thinking in a in a way that we would have done many years ago. A lot of my research has been done on humans in extreme environments. And it's amazing how even within five days that person starts to interact with the environment very, very differently. Even within that five days is amazing. Yes, you you adapt.

India Pearson  34:57  
Yeah, you know in that These of natural things come about and you start adapting to where you are. So can you sort of Is there any experiences you've had, or some of the best ultramarathons, you've been to tell us a little sob story of one or anything like that? Oh,

Shane Benzie  35:12  
my goodness, wow, there's so there's so many around the world. Almost impossible just to pick one out. I think the the marathon de sarb is a race that many people will have heard of, and it's a five day race across the Sahara Desert. And you're you up, you run up to two marathons a day, some days, so long distances in incredible heat. And you you kind of sleep every night in a tent, and you share that tent with seven other people. So the camaraderie and the power of the group in the in the, in the tent is absolutely amazing. You know, because you're all people from all different kinds of walks of life are kind of flung together, in these tents, and, you know, it's an amazing friendships developed from that. And you can really see people gaining strength from, you know, from that event and building strength as they go through the through the days. So I think that's one that really sticks out where you get that camaraderie. It's amazing. And you know, what's fascinating is, when i when i because I've run these races, as well as researching on them, and if I'm researching them, you look at you, I work with runners, and I put sensors on them while they're in these races and look at all kinds of data from them, but also work a lot with them on their perception of their effort and how fit they feel and how tired they feel. And very often by about day three, they are kind of saying, Do you know what, this is amazing, I'm getting fitter on the race, I'm building my fitness on the race, this is getting easier. But in reality, you're not really building physical fitness in time to be fitter than you were two days ago. But what's getting fitter is the software is the brain's ability to cope with this amazing, extreme environment. So if you land in the jungle, and everything's trying to eat you, you know, the brain is going wild trying to cope with this situation. So everything feels really tough. But after two days of it, you actually start to see the beauty of it and you understand it, and you're more relaxed with it, suddenly your perception of effort comes down when you start to feel a lot fitter. So it's amazing on in all of these environments to see people that are dropped into them, who are first of this thinking, I just can't do this, I really can't do this. And by day three, are helping each other enjoying it, and in their mind getting getting much fitter you are but it's software fitness rather than their hardware a Body Fitness

India Pearson  37:41  
is fascinating, isn't it? I guess it's used your you start familiarising yourself with the environment that you're in. So this is a question that I always ask my guests at the end of the podcast, which is looking back at the ripples you've made in your life and within your work and your research. What is the sort of biggest lessons that you've come to to keeping your mind and your body healthy?

Shane Benzie  38:08  
I think the biggest thing that I've learned, and the biggest on my journey, and the biggest thing that I'm most passionate about trying to spread the word of is that our body, and our mind is constantly rejuvenating and re architecting itself. You know, that was big news to me, which seems crazy now. But you know, I really didn't, I really didn't take that into account. And I think so I'm really excited to try and share with people that if you go out and do something today, and you challenge your body doing that task, your body is going to rejuvenate and re architect itself allowing you to do that task better. Tomorrow is what I call Darwinian fitness. So not so much cardiovascular fitness, but Darwinian Fitness, Fitness, for the body to be able to perform that task. So our brain, we have a very elastic brain, and we have a very elastic body, both of them are constantly reacting to what we do. And if we know that, we'll do more, because if we think it's damage limitation, or it's kind of over for us, because our time has gone, we'll do less. And that's such a shame, because we're missing out so and the more we do, the more we can do. And so that that's that that's why that's more than a ripple that for me, that's a huge wave. That's a tsunami. It's huge. Yeah,

India Pearson  39:30  
but for me it is that's the same as if you don't use it, you lose

Shane Benzie  39:33  
it and all loser is one of those, we hear it all the time. And we often use a lot of these sayings without really maybe thinking too deeply about what's going on behind the saying, but it's absolutely true. You know, and you can have people, there is no age limit at all, you know, you could be 85 years old and if you're moving and loading your body, challenging your body, you're going to get better at that task tomorrow. You really are on It doesn't matter about your postcode, your age, who you are, where you live, what you do,

India Pearson  40:05  
if you move, you get better and stronger at it. Without a doubt, that simple. And I and I know that obviously, we keep talking about this for hours. But if people are fascinated in paying more about this, you've got a bit lost our art of running. And where can listeners find that?

Shane Benzie  40:24  
So, so I have a website, which is running reborn, running reborn is me. So running reborn.com. And that the website there, there's a coaching site where you can join, and learn all about the work. And there's lots of videos that you can watch, to see how to move well. And it inspires you actually to video yourself. And that's one of the big things that I'm really passionate about is getting people to body up and video each other running. Because we have these perceptions about how we move. And it's not always quite the way we think that it is. But we don't know, you know, short windows and shadows aside, it's difficult to know how you're moving sometimes. So if you buddy up with somebody else, then you video each other because we can all do that on our phones, and start to see the way that you're moving, you can then use the sites to download the videos and kind of compare what you're doing. And if that site keeps up with my research work and everything that I'm doing, and you can buy the book through the through the through the websites. And I do lots of online coaching people all around the world, and face to face coaching here in bartering groups and individuals as well. So everything I'm up to what you will find on that site, and he was fine as

India Pearson  41:35  
your Instagram handle was that he was really fascinating.

Shane Benzie  41:39  
So so the Instagram is Shane bensi.

India Pearson  41:42  
So Lindsey Yeah. And that's, that's where there's like these little pockets of videos as well. And then you go on the website, and it gives you a little, a little bit more. And I think that is valid. True, you know, if you video so sometimes it feels really cringe worthy, doesn't it, you're like, oh my god.

Shane Benzie  41:58  
You You're very rarely punching the excitement after you seen it, but then allows you to do something about it and take ownership of it. You know, it really does. Because we learn so much by seeing what we do. And, you know, we have this perception of our movement and this propriate section that tells our brain where our spatial awareness is on what we're doing. But it doesn't really enlightened us exactly how we're moving. 10 seconds of video on your phone or your tablet will change the way you view your running forever. It's It's It's very enlightening.

India Pearson  42:38  
I mean, that goes for any sort of thought or movement that you're doing. I mean, I did not watch myself back to yoga or paddleboarding or anything that I'm sort of into. And I'm like, Oh, no, I wish I know exactly what to change and it should be your own critic. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. Stan started a podcast. It's been so insightful. And yeah, I definitely I've been listening to Shane's book actually on Audible and it's really, really fascinating stuff. So I definitely recommend it. Okay, well, well listen, thank you. Thank you for inviting me on. It was good fun. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the start every podcast. If you'd like to be heard, then please do subscribe and write a review. It helps other like minded souls find this podcast and means never miss an episode. If you want to get in touch then the best place to find me is via Instagram. I'm at with underscore India or you can find my wellbeing hub at fin and flow. Thanks again and speak to you soon.