Making Sure The Numbers Add Up – Money Management in MATs

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Wellspring Way. It's our fortnightly chance to chat to education professionals about life in the classroom and the issues affecting our schools. My guest today is the man in charge of the purse strings at Wellspring, Mark Wood. With over 30 years' experience in finance, Chief Finance Officer Mark has been instrumental in guiding the trust's financial growth and stability. He's had to navigate a tricky balancing act of making sure the numbers add up whilst delivering the very best education for the thousands of children who go to Wellspring schools. He's also a legendary quizmaster. Mark, thanks for taking the time now to speak to us today.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Now, first of all, I'd like to know a little bit about your background because I don't know kind of how you ended up at Wells Spring. I I know you're at Greenacre, but other than that, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yeah, so I worked at the uh Log for Florida, so I worked for Barcer Council for 30 years, so almost from leaving school, uh, other than uh a year on a youth training scheme at uh Colbrothers in Sheffield, which is a John Lewis department store.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Oh wow!

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Uh but then joined the council uh from 17, uh was there 30 years, uh almost a lifer, but but got out near the end. Uh opportunity presented itself uh at Green Acre Special School in Barnsley for a business manager. I'd been involved in schools uh across Barnsley when I was working for the council, uh so it seemed like an ideal opportunity, just a bit of a change. So I went to Green Acre and within a year of being at Green Acre, they joined Wellspring.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

And at that point, an opportunity presented itself within Wellspring. They had a vacant CFO role, uh, which I applied for, and and Julie Gotten here I am six years later.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Right, so six years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Six years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Six years ago. So what was Wellspring like six years ago then?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Uh six years ago, I guess it was almost at the end of its what could be considered its first wave of growth. So there was probably about 10, 11 schools. Uh we didn't have a lot of the centralised functions that we've got now, so schools still employed their own business managers, were performing uh a lot of their own finance uh functions, processing of invoices, etc. Yeah. Uh I guess from a uh financial perspective, you know, uh the total level of resource that we were dealing with was a lot less than it is now. Yeah, I can imagine. And so from coming in at that point, we uh moved through the sort of centralisation of the finance function uh and realigning of that uh from schools, uh providing a greater level of assurance uh from my perspective in terms of that that financial control would it be done directly under my responsibility. Uh, and similarly, we grew from what with I don't know, 10-11 schools to to where we are now with 29 with Cumbrigs joining, which is exciting. Uh so yeah, I mean, in terms of the the day-to-day work and the challenges, that that is very much the same, but I guess from a strategic perspective, it's a much bigger organisation, much more complex, and so much more to the I mean gosh, when you think about Wells, when you think about multi-academy trusts in general, I mean they're they're huge operations now, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

We're talking about multi-million pound budgets, thousands and thousands of staff. That's like that's a big corporation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, yeah, I mean they're significant entities.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Uh, you know, when we consider that, even compared to business, you know, not many businesses will have uh 80 million pounds plus turnover. So in terms of figures and employees as well, you know, when we think about the total number of employees we've got, you know, it's huge. Uh, so yeah, as a business, uh, it is a significant undertaking.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

What do you think is um particularly different in being involved in the finances for something like a multi-caminate trust to say, you know, you're ordinary, ordinary, if there is such a thing, um, company cooperation?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah, so I guess the big difference is uh what you exist for. So most businesses will be will exist to uh deliver a profit, so it's you know heavily focused on sales, margins on those sales, and actually delivering a profit for shareholders. Yeah, I guess from our perspective, uh like many other public sector organisations, the challenge for us is is making the best use of uh I was going to say what limited resources we've got, but I guess you could question limited in the context of 80 million pounds. Yeah, but I guess like the NHS and and and other areas, you can always do more if you've got more money. So I guess it's always a you know, it is always a restricting element, is the level of resource that you get. But ultimately, we're we're trying to make the best use of those limited resources to deliver the better outcomes that we can for for children.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

How on earth do you even begin to kind of identify what how do you measure it, which where the money should be spent and what the best return is, I guess, because the return isn't profit, but the return is um the outcomes for the children.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, uh it is, and I think you know, one of the things that I think Wellspring does incredibly well is is understanding that uh each each school is unique, each school is different, each school sits within its own community and has its own context. And I think you know, for me, one of the key things in terms of making the best use of the resources is actually understanding what the key needs and challenges are at a local level. And so make sure you are using the resources in the best way to address those localized needs. So, you know, one of the key things is really understanding uh understanding the school, understanding what's working well, uh, what those school improvement priorities need to be, uh, understanding how to best align the staff in terms of supporting pupils. And when you spend 75-80% of your resource on your staff, then that that becomes a key uh a key area. But the key thing is always just just making sure that the resources are aligned to that understanding of actually what what's going to have the greatest impact uh and deliver those outcomes for children.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

And am I right in thinking that um Wellspring's a little bit different in how it approaches school budgets? Because I know that some trusts have um fixed ratios, don't they, of what spend goes on what thing, regardless of what the school is. It's you know, you've got this much for staff, you've got this much for I don't know, building, and but we don't do it like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

No, so some some trusts uh literally will have a uh a centralised decision-making process, they'll have a standard standardised model of what every school should look like. Yeah, they'll work out how much they're gonna take to deliver those structures, which will be standardised structures, they'll be standardised spend around estates, uh, etc. etc. And often the school themselves will get localized decision making over a pot of what is essentially classroom-based resources, yeah. So really minimal uh in terms of their influence of how the money is spent relative to their local context because it's just a a standardised model, and I guess we're at the other end where you know we really believe that the the people that know best how to have an impact in schools is is those that are at the call face at the local level, understand that local context, understand the communities, the families that they're there to support, uh, and that will be different in every single school and every single setting.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, because I mean right down to little things like well it's not little actually, but you know, some of our schools provide school uniform, don't they? They use their budget and they provide school uniform for the kids and it's free free for them. Whereas obviously other schools don't do that, but it's it's that level of autonomy to decide how that money gets spent, which is really quite um unique, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, and I guess using that as an example, you know, we'll you know, we operate a number of schools that are in really, really deprived areas. Yeah. Uh, and so actually, you know, that having that uniform would be incredibly difficult for parents to be able to pay for, but actually, the the the impact of of all children dressing the same uh so they're not feeling alienated, you know, could be really important in terms of actually you know giving those children a sense of uh pride in in the uniform, pride in the school, and being able to look smart and go to school smart and and all be the same so so nobody's left out.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, yeah. Um now it's all over the news, we hear it all the time. Um, cost of living crisis, bills going up. We heard about all the stresses at the end of last year around uh pay rises for school staff, but not any additional money coming forward, and how difficult that was looking. Now, the government has provided some more funding. How are things looking for schools now?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

So it's been a really challenging year. I think you know everybody's felt it on a personal level in terms of uh cost of living, cost of food, uh so you know, some some pretty bare essentials uh being really expensive. So schools were dealing that sort of like from last January anyway. And then over the summer we had the uh impact of the teachers' pay increases and the support staff pay increases that were above the level of funding increases that had been passed into schools, which created quite a significant challenge, and then coupled alongside that, we were seeing energy costs collectively go up by 400%, 500%, 600%, so huge increases in some key costs there, and and the same sorts of things that we were feeling individually at home. Uh and at the point that they they were realised, uh, the government's rhetoric at that point was they'd already announced the additional money that was going into schools uh for this year, there would be no more money to meet those specific pressures. Uh and so we'd embarked on a real in-depth planning process during the autumn term to try and understand what that meant for our schools and what actions we might have to take to ensure that that we could operate them sustainably from September 2023 onwards.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

So, some really difficult decisions.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Some really, really difficult decisions, uh really challenging for schools, you know, potential for job reduction, so redundancies, restructures in schools. Uh, I think one of one of the things that we did, and again talking to other trusts throughout that period, I think we we we took action early on. So as soon as schools came back in September, it wasn't the most welcome uh back after the summer holidays, but but was really important. So we we worked out a worst-case scenario at that stage. So schools could start to plan early the actions that take that they take should that worst-case scenario materialise. We did a lot of work in terms of bringing schools together, both in regions uh and and sectors, so bring the primary schools together, the special schools together, and challenge them really to just think about how they ran the schools, opportunities for income generation, opportunities for generating uh other external funds, opportunity for sharing resources, so shared Senko, shared uh admin pastoral support, and just thinking, you know, if if the worst happens, what can we do? Yeah, and it almost prompts you to say actually, if you were building the school from scratch but with significantly less money, how would that look and what decisions would you take? And so to start to think about it from that perspective, so that if if the worst did arise, actually we we had time to give it proper due consideration, and a lot of that still comes back to where we started, which is still understanding how you make the best use of what may be even more limited resources, but the same principle applies: how do you use the resources to have the maximum impact on children? And so a lot of schools had been working through the autumn term with the finance support uh team, uh modelling up different scenarios, looking at different staffing structures, looking at other areas where uh where they could generate efficiencies uh while still delivering an effective service. Uh and we were sort of like we got to got to December and we're at a point where we were planning on taking all these papers to the next round of governing body meetings in January for governors to start to understand the scale of the challenge and the options, and uh, thankfully, uh on the last day of term uh the DFE announced uh the additional money, uh, which was uh quite significant and and and really welcome, and so fortunately that that really shifted the position.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

So, working with schools coming back after Christmas and much more welcome than it was coming back after summer.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Absolutely, and that schools have moved significantly from where they were, and what we felt might be you know some really large-scale restructures and redundancies were then very different in terms of what was ultimately uh what was ultimately required, and so now we're in a space uh where uh the impact is is a lot less, and obviously that's beneficial uh in terms of you know being able to maintain what's being provided for children. Yeah, but I think there's been a huge benefit anyway, in terms of that worst-case zero-based planning that's been done, prompted all our schools to think differently, think about different ways of doing things, more efficient ways of doing things. So actually, there will be an ongoing benefit just from going through the process, yeah, that that they may still want to make changes.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

I was just gonna I was gonna ask you, are there some of those changes that they thought about that actually thought, you know what, this would be good to do anyway, even even without the falls in budget?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, and and and I think some schools actually will, particularly where we've been able to find efficiencies around non-staffing areas, you know what why wouldn't you take the opportunity to implement those? Because actually that then frees up more money for you to be able to consider actually how do you put that money back into the system where it's gonna have the greatest impact. So I think that whole planning piece and and schools taking a more zero-based approach to planning actually has been really valuable, and so it's not been a wasted effort.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

No, not at all. Um, can you think of any examples of kind of what schools can do without impacting um education negatively to save money? Some of the things that perhaps people listening might be from different schools and thought, you know what, I'd not thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Uh, I mean, one of the things that that that that we would do uh as part of the process was sort of like looking at uh benchmarking data, so whether that's internal benchmarking data, so that can help in terms of just identifying spend where maybe you're an outlier. So if you're spending uh you know more on uh photocopiers or more on books or more on resources or or more on uh buildings, so actually looking at where you spend money and actually saying, are we spending more than other schools in those areas? But they're still able to deliver positive outcomes for children. Now that's not to say you're right or wrong in what you're doing, yeah. And actually, as long as you understand why you're spending more, there might be a valid reason uh for that. Yeah, uh, but I guess you know, areas uh areas where you could look for genuine efficiencies. I mean, we it's tricky because we've done a lot over the years in terms of uh consolidating contracts for things like catering, cleaning, uh IT support, all those big spend areas, as a trust, we we've done trust-wide exercises to make sure we're getting value for money.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Uh it's that economy's a scale thing as well as we get bigger, it gets cheaper, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, so a lot a lot of those, a lot of those things uh to some degree we'd already done. So, in terms of making sure that what we are delivering is as efficient as it can be, we'd sort of already done a lot of a lot of that work from a value for money perspective. So some of those bigger contract areas we'd already uh we'd already dealt with, and so you know, could guarantee value for money for for the schools in relation to that. Uh in in other areas, I think you know, some schools would would some schools were naturally spending more on uh on certain areas, so it could be books, resources, etc. Yeah than other schools. Uh and again just sharing that information, we're able to look at what they're spending on those areas uh and think about that. Uh I think in reality a lot of the uh a lot of the focus was on the staffing structures, yeah. Because having having all those other areas that I think you know over the years have become quite lean and efficient in terms of use of resources, I think some of those you know what you're left with is staffing.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, which is the very bit that we don't we don't want to touch, that's the bit that's the you know the most essential of all, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah, yeah but again, just just working through the different roles that we've got and and saying, you know, are those roles still relevant given our current needs and challenges? Yeah, uh, which of the roles have the greatest impact uh in terms of what we want to achieve uh within the school, and it's never an easy decision, and clearly, you know, the more staff you've got, uh you know, the greater the impact that you can have. But when resources are limited, it's just making sure that the staff you have got are having other ones that are going to have uh have the greatest impact.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Thinking about staffing and the impact of that, um we're really strong in S C and D. We've got lots of SE and D settings, um, not anti-provision settings. Now we all know that that requires more staff than other settings for obvious reasons, um, and that's a real challenge, isn't it? The funding around SE and D settings.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah, so so the funding for uh S and D settings in itself uh is a challenge, and I guess similarly, uh and I will come back to that, similarly, uh the pressures that schools face uh can be magnified within uh special uh and alternative settings, mainly because of the volume of support staff that they need to be able to manage the needs of those children. In terms of funding, so for mainstream schools, primary and secondary schools, there's a national funding formula which in the main ensures that any additional government funding that is made available on an annual basis for schools does find its way into schools. So the government will put any increases for mainstream schools through the national funding formula, yeah, and that will find its way directly into primary and secondary schools. For special and alternative schools, any increase in funding is allocated to the local authority, and the local authority then determines A, whether it's going to passport any of that increase to special and alternative uh schools, uh, and B the scale of any of any increase. So we often have to try and negotiate uh individually with each local authority to try and get a fair deal for each of our schools.

unknown 20:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

So just to kind of clarify, that pot of money that goes to local authority, the local authority could spend that on any kind of support services for is that right? So you're kind of you're in in the pot amongst all other kinds of services that might be supported by those people.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

So a good example is is the the money that goes to local authorities is is is what's classed as the high needs block of funding, yeah, and that's to meet uh costs that local authorities have in terms of uh meeting uh additional needs of children within their locality. Uh, and it is a real challenge for local authorities. You know, I'm not I'm not suggesting it's easy. Uh, there's more and more children uh emerging with additional needs, so the actual demand pressures on local authorities uh are quite significant. Often they haven't necessarily got the uh available places in local schools to be able to meet needs, so often they're spending quite a lot of money on placing children uh in independent provision outside of the local area. Which is very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Because you pay for taxis and all sorts of stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah, but actually the cut the core cost of providing that education can often be uh up to double what it would cost to meet the needs of that child in a local uh in a local school. Oh wow. So the the differential can be quite significant, and so a lot of money is spent uh on those out-of-area placements, uh, which places a huge pressure on the actual budget that the local authorities got available, which means that they've got less money then for distributing uh for uh meeting inflationary increases that schools are facing.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Uh so it it is very different for those settings from uh from mainstream primary and secondary settings.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Different challenges. So yeah, you've got to get your kind of head around so many different um ways of funding and all the rest of it, haven't you, in education and how how things um can impact in different ways, it's it's quite a minefield, really.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

It is yeah, incredibly challenging, yes. Yeah, and in most cases, you know, we do have good working relationships with the local authorities uh that we work with, but it it is very difficult because you know money is a constraining factor for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah, and everybody's fighting for it, you know. All the public services are fighting for it, so yeah, it's um it's difficult. Um, I want to move on now to get a little bit of a taste of your own school days, find out what that was like for you. So we've got some quick fire questions for you. Um first up, art and design or performing arts?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Oh wow, er art and design.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Gee. What we should what'd you like, your painting, clay, what was it?

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Woodwork, uh metal work, so real hands-on proper building stuff. I guess yeah, you know, making things.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Um coursework or exams.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Ooh, er, either or.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Er, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

No preference on that?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Uh no. Yeah, no, not really.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

I think take it as it comes.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yeah, I didn't I didn't particularly mind exams.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, I think you kind of fall in one of two counts with exams, don't you? Yeah, you can really hate them or you've got to be.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

And I genuinely understand some people really, really struggle with an exam environment for everybody, and I really, really feel for those people because actually, you know, the more than capable, yeah, but the environment's a shame. The environment can put some people off. Yeah, I can be quite comfortable in exam situation.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah, you do really feel for those that have worked really hard and then just for whatever reason they fall to pieces. Yeah, it's a shame, really.

unknown 24:46

It is.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Um, singing in assembly, yes or no?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Uh so up to oof, and you can probably tell by my voice is booming and deep, up to about 10 or 11. Uh, I remember my music meeting teacher in primary school said I've got the voice of an angel. Uh, it must have broken very quickly thereafter. So I've probably gone from singing at primary school in Assembly to just keep keeping my head down and and and miming.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, I'm tone deaf, so I I mime for a lot a lot of my my singing in school. Um, school dinners or pack lunches.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Oh, school dinners every time.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Really? What's your favourite?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Oh uh they used to do a mean curry, uh, which was because it was in school, it wasn't particularly spicy, but I always remember it. It had apple and raising, you know, the fruity sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah, I remember having curry with apple and rice in it.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Curry, rice and chips. Oh, well every day.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Um physics, chemistry, or biology?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Physics, I think it's back to that building thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, you know, the concept of yeah, and I guess that kind of math side of it as well, I guess. Yeah. Um school trip or a summer fair?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

A school trip, I think it's got to be.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, I think I'd go with a school trip as well. Yeah, get on that coach. It's a day out. It is a day out. Um, and then finally, the last question that I ask everyone that comes on. If I had gave you a magic wand and you could change absolutely anything you wanted in the education system, you don't have to worry about budgets. Um, what would you change and why? Cool, that's a uh take as long as you need to ever think about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, yeah, that's a question. I think if anything, uh it it would be having a concept where every child could succeed in some way. I guess you know, historically exams have been set up that the successful succeed because there's a group that don't. So where you have cut-offs for uh you know pass or fail, and this concept that if you get uh more people doing well, then you increase uh increase the pass mark, yeah. Which just seems a nonsense that we have a system where success can only be measured ultimately by saying that we've got a group of children that are better than others, and by default they're they're more successful. And I think you know, we've got children that have multiple skill sets, and as you know, some may not be academic, but actually can still make a really massive positive contribution to society in terms of you know, when you look at vocational qualifications, you know, they're just as critical in terms of what they ultimately lead to. Yeah, and and I think you know that understanding that everybody's different, but actually, so success can be measured in very different ways, but but actually everybody could probably be successful in some way at some thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, because children are all they're all individuals and they all thrive in different ways. It's that um what's that quote? Isn't it something about you know, if you measured a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it'd be a failure. But you know, it's yeah, it's it's all those kind of um things, isn't it? And the pandemic taught us that perhaps the jobs that we think are the most important aren't really, are they? So um, yeah, those ones that are going into the jobs that maybe don't have all the status are actually some of the most important jobs that that we have, after all.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, and I think you know, every everyone can genuinely have something to offer. Yeah, you know, and I think what we've got to do is have a system that that finds that and then uses that effectively for that next stage of life after school.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Thank you so much for um joining us and taking the time out to have a chat with us today. That's been brilliant. Next time I'll be joined by Associate Principal Joanna Kempston, who'll be telling us all about her varied career in education from secondary teaching to transforming school spaces to teacher training and development. Hope you can join us then.