From Classroom to Conference – Exploring Teacher-Driven Research

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello and welcome back to the Wellspring Way. Today, our guest is Leeds Trinity University Professor Lee Hoth. She's Deputy Dean at the University School for Education and she leads science education. She's co-founder of an organisation leading curriculum development concerning climate change education, the Climate Adaptive Pathways for Education, or CAPE. She's chair-elect of the Association for Science Education and a regular contributor to their conferences and publications. She's a published author and she's also a consultant to BBC Teach, where she's developed the Blue Planet Live teacher resources and live lessons. She's also worked closely with Wellspring over the past couple of years to support us in developing education research. I'm thrilled that she's been able to find a gap in that very busy diary to share some of her thoughts and experiences with us today. Lee, welcome to the Wellspring Way. Now, there was a lot to cover off in that intro about you. It's tricky to know where to start, really. I think let's go right back to the beginning and you give us a little rundown of your career today and how you got into education and academia.

unknown 1:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So we're going back nearly 30 years now when I started university and I applied to do biology. That's what I really wanted to do. I loved science. So wanted to do biology, and one of my teachers said, Oh, you should apply to do biology and education at the university I wanted to go to, which was Stirling. And what happened was the situation was that if you applied and wanted to do education, you had to have been accepted for it rather than being able to opt to choose it as a second subject. So I did this, and um, it wasn't really until when I was in my second year and on my second teaching practice that I suddenly had this, oh, I'm actually going to be a teacher realization. Um, so did that degree, uh, absolutely loved teaching. Moved then from Stirling down to Leeds and taught um in East Leeds for a couple of years before I went to school in Pudsey for another eight years after that. Um, and then I moved into higher education and I've been there since 2006. So you started in teaching.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

What kind of teaching were you doing? Are you a science teacher? Yeah, secondary, secondary biology and some chemistry as well. Okay. Um, and then obviously you went into academia and you've done all these incredible things. You know, we've got, you know, this this long biography of stuff that you've done. Um, but the way that we got to know you at Wellspring was through um supporting us with some research projects. Um and I guess that's kind of really what I'd love to have a chat with you about today, really, about about research and how how important it is really in education. Because it's not something that gets a lot of air time.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, or if it does, it's often quite negative, actually, because there's a number of people who are very anti-research um and see it as something that's really decontextualised and and removed from what's happening in the classroom. But I think there's different ways to look at it, and yes, you do have some academics who spend their time researching something that is solely three theoretical. Um, but I think when it comes to teacher and um teacher-educator research and research around children, it's it's rarely sort of done in isolation. I think what we find is that what's happening is a reflection on practice, um, things that can be done to help understand how children are learning, how teachers are teaching, how we can make things better in schools for our children and young people. Um, and I think that gives it a layer of authenticity, perhaps that some research doesn't. I think the big issue with it is how it's presented and where it's presented, because what we have is teachers don't have time to read and to pick up academic journals or um that sort of nature of reading, really. You know, they're they're so busy as professionals. So sometimes I think it's seen as inaccessible because of how it's shared. So it's about how we can make sure that the research that is happening is disseminated in a way that it gets to the people who can translate it into something really meaningful in the classroom.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, because I know one of the first things that you did with us was um some research around our communicolor project, wasn't it? And um looking at the impact of that on children's experiences in school, really, and staff's experiences in school. Um, and then I'm right in thinking that that was presented then at an international conference.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, and how that came about was just listening to some of the teachers and the staff that had been involved in that making observations of what had happened. They were really keen to show me the Communicolour installations, which are fantastic. Um, and there's an article just gone into Schools Week about it actually in relation to getting children to engage more um with the with the outdoor space when you've not necessarily got lots of fields and green space for for children. But it's about they were talking about, you know, we've got children who are now playing imaginative, creative games that previously would have been sitting on a wall kicking their heels, and we've got children that are engaging in um sort of interactions with each other and with teachers that they never would have before. And it was trying to sort of listening to this conversation and going, but there's something anyway. Are these children doing this? Let's try and get a sense of a pupil voice, a teacher voice on this. And I think that's where teacher research is really important because what we've done is taken something that we've noticed. One of my colleagues would call it the stone in your shoe, something that you sort of get that notice of that you're aware of and go, actually, I want to know more about that. Why is that working in that way? How does that work? And actually, if we know, understand more about that, we can do it better going forward.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah, because I think that for me, and I I guess for a lot of people, uh especially um teachers, would perhaps hear the word research, academic research, conferences, um, journals, and they'd be, oh my goodness, you know, that's complicated stuff, that's high-level stuff. I'm not, it's not something for me. And actually, we're talking about understanding everyday occurrences, aren't we? And and getting to the nitty-gritty of what's really going on in classrooms. It's not, it's not sitting in an ivory tower and kind of pontificate it. This is real life stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I'm not going to deny this. As an academic, there are a number of journal articles that you can pick up and they're just completely impenetrable. You sit there and think, who have you written this for? Um, when I did my doctorate, I had a very strong agreement with myself that it would be written in a way that whilst I'd spent four and a half years doing the research, that it would be able to be picked up by non-academics and they could make sense of it. Because if not, what's the point? So, what we really need, it comes back to that dissemination piece. Absolutely, there's plenty of um people who are doing research around teachers, around children learning, and all of that that is really valuable, and it's about it's about articulating it in a way that makes it accessible. Because if all we're doing is writing for other academics, what's the point?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yeah, exactly. It's just going around and round a little loop of people, yeah, preaching to the converted, aren't you? And you're not getting anywhere. Yeah. Um, so imagine a teacher kind of right there at the start, has never really thought about um research, doesn't really know much about it, um, and you meet them for some reason, have a chat with them. What would you say to them about that? How do you get started? Where do you go?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah. I think it's about starting with go back to that stone, the stone in the shoe. What is it? What is it they've noticed? Um, what's the thing that you think I'm really interested in in that, or I've noticed that, or you know, my passion is about trying to get children to to read more or to you know to play outside more, whatever it is, your thing. And I think running with that is really important, and it's about trying to set that up in in manageable ways. What can I ask about this thing, this topic? What can I then do with it? So, where can I get information from? And do I want that from the children that I'm teaching? Do I want a perception you know from the parents? Do I want to know what other colleagues think? And just identifying that route. And you know, we do we do quite a lot of this as teachers, anyway. We we notice things, we reflect on them, we move forward, and it's it's formalizing that process in many ways. So it's about maybe approaching somebody else in school. So if you take the approach that your trust has taken, we had those um supported research groups where people came along, we talked about what the stones in their shoe were, and I supported them in saying, well, how can we devise a really small-scale research project that allows you to answer that question or find out more about that thing in your classroom? And it's about then taking that approach and going, okay, so now I've got this information, what can I do with it? And it might be that it never goes beyond your classroom, it could be like with a communicolor project that we decided to submit an abstract to a conference and we presented there to sort of go this is a way that people can use. And as I said earlier, schools we have picked up on that. There's a lovely article there. So it's about things can be research and um really um valuable research on a tiny scale, or it could be a trust-wide project that's taking place.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, I mean, I know that's something that we we are trying to instill really in Wellspring, that um that awareness of the fact that within a large trust, or even you know, a small trust, there's masses of experience and knowledge and insight, and it's finding ways to dig into that a little bit more and then share it across across um a wider audience of people so that they can all benefit from it. Um I guess a part of that is giving people the confidence to do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

And it is that it's that sense of teachers don't see themselves as researchers, yeah. And research is it's a scary word. I work with um people who are relatively new to working in a university, and by that I mean sort of three, four years in, and they're still hesitant to see themselves as doing research or or taking that step, um, because they still very much see themselves as teachers and not people that you know are academics in university. But it's not, I think, and I think that's that perception, isn't it? We're scared of the really challenging research and those hard papers that we may have had to read at some point in our degrees that are just difficult and you know, treacle to wade through. But it's about actually we can find things out, we can make a contribution, and any research, any activity that adds something new or a different perspective counts as research. It's not having to produce something that is really high-powered academic. Um, but but as you see, it's about that confidence, and maybe there's ways of labeling it differently. We talk about we have a practitioner-led group, which is about the teachers finding things out in their own settings. They're doing research projects. We don't label them as those until much further down the line.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, I guess it's it's professional curiosity, really, isn't it? And if you can kind of think of it like that, right, what's what am I curious about? What do I want to know more about? Then you kind of bypass that sense of, oh, I need to be writing for an academic journal to be doing research. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

And there's a lot of practitioner publications as well, which are really useful. So, you know, I um I'm heavily involved with the Association for Science Education, and the the greatest number of publications I have are through their practitioner-based publications. So, yes, they are based on on that research that I've spoken about from a practice perspective, but they're you know, they're they are written sort of by teachers for teachers, so there's ways of publishing and and moving that forward without it having to be in an academic journal. And there's also other routes, you know, if we if we think about you know doing a master's, they're they're for you. You know, my doctorate was was absolutely my project, you know, it wasn't the universities, it wasn't, and my master's was as well. It's because I was interested in finding out more about that, and that's that's a really um structured way. We also get a little bit of credit for it, and it is really nice to stand there and have your graduation day with that bit of work that you've done, that's yours, that you've found out, and you've made that contribution. Because at that point, when you do your master's or your doctorate, you know more about that thing than anybody else. That one little bit, you know more about it, and that's a lovely position to be in.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, yeah, because um I mean we see a lot of in a lot of professions, it's not just teaching, isn't it? You get you you get your job, you get your first job, you start on that career trajectory, and you kind of almost forget about that um in-depth learning side of things, and and a lot of people never never do a master's or anything more in-depth um in terms of study. What are the benefits to teachers to, you know, they've done their PGCE. What's the benefit to them to then thinking, actually, do you know what? Maybe I could go back and and and do my master's now. Um why should they really?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I think what that sort of study does is allow you greater insight into your craft as a teacher. So being able to explore more about why something is working or not working, or what can be done to make something work better, um, just gives you that insight that you wouldn't necessarily otherwise get. Now, some people might, some people might interrogate things in their own way to get to that point, but this gives you um permission, really, I think, to to sort of look into those bits and pieces and go, this is something that matters to me. I can find out more about this, and then I can do something about it. So doing that sort of study will have an impact, and it might shy you away from doing a particular thing, or it might support your school in taking a journey that actually will support and develop things in a better way for a whole community of children.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I mean, you you mentioned earlier, which is absolutely right, isn't it? The um constraints on teachers and the lack of time. You know, they're busy people, they're working hard. Um how do you manage additional study around a you know, a very demanding full-time job?

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, it is difficult. And you know, I did mine, I did my doctorate part-time whilst working full-time, so I absolutely get that challenge. Um, and I think it's about it's a it's about being in a in a school or a trust where the culture supports that. So having a leadership team that will value what you're doing, that see the value of you and of being invested in to continue that study and to explore your practice in that way. And but it's difficult, and it's you know, we've got so many competing demands in the classroom now, even just on a day-to-day basis, before we start adding the layers of pressure that come from budgets and assessment and and and and um, but you know, it's a relatively short-term commitment that you're making to something that I think will act as a platform going forward, either in terms of your practice, in terms of opportunities for promotion, um, in terms of just seeing things in a in a way that can enable you to just do that little bit more. So it's it is it's a compromise, it's people making that decision and commitment to yes, this is going to take up some of my time, hopefully supported to some extent by by leadership. Um, but yeah, it's it's an investment in yourself, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah. And thinking about um, we've we've talked about kind of research in terms of something quite small scale and um doing it for your particular school or trust or you know, your your immediate colleagues, I guess. Um, what if you find something that really kind of like, whoa, there's there's something really valuable in this? How what's the process then of trying to I guess disseminate that much further and get that out into the world? Um how would you even start with that? Do you need do you need to approach university really and kind of um get their buy-in and look at it in that way? Yeah, not necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I mean, it helps because what we have as access to that knowledge bank in terms of where you can start to use those platforms. Let's not say that we've got the knowledge that teachers don't have, but it's about you know, we've got uh networks necessarily, perhaps, that other people don't have. Um, it can be useful to have a university partner, and this is how you know my work with your trust came about was by you know, what could how could we support teachers in doing some research, and then looking at actually where do who do I want this to get to? So, again, looking at how I could maybe publish something, what um subject association conferences or teacher education or wider education conferences we can speak at. And people are really, really nervous about doing that sort of thing. Um, and so it's interesting, I've known people who would much rather go and speak at a conference than tackle writing about it first, or other people the other way around who will go, well, I can hide behind the writing before I have to stand in front of people. But either way, it's about using those networks that your you know local universities can help you with in terms of actually where can I start to disseminate this and how can I do this on a bigger scale and a larger network?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Now, one of the things about research is and particularly I'm thinking about if you're in classrooms with kids, um and with all research, ethics is a massively important part of it, isn't it? Um, what are the pitfalls, I guess, and things that teachers need to be aware of if they're thinking about maybe dipping their toe into research um in their own classrooms in terms of ethics?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah, ethics is actually a huge issue, and and one of the things that I think teachers, when we we explore it more formally, get quite nervous about. Um, the whole purpose of ethics and working ethically is that we do no harm through what we do. So it's about really thinking about that in terms of things like power dynamics. So if I'm if I am a teacher and I want to speak to some of my children and young people about a particular thing, I've got to be really mindful about who I am in that context. So I'm their teacher, they they are going to want to answer in a way that is right. Quite often they want to try and get that right. So there's a skew in terms of data collection and things that go there. We need to be really careful that we go, Ricky. We really want to know about how we can improve learning for our boys who are pupil premium. And you're immediately then going, okay, I've labeled I've got this label for these children. So if I then say, Ricky, I'm going to do this intervention with this group, what does that do? Ultimately, yes, it might be well-intentioned, and the outcomes do benefit that group of pupils. But what we do in the meantime, when we when we bring that group together and say, you are this group, and you know, you're identified in this way, we've got to be really, really careful about how we do that. Consent is a really interesting one because we've got young children, you know, young people who again, you know, is that balance between getting their consent and getting parental consent, um, and ensuring that they genuinely understand what it is that they are consenting to. And lots of parents at home again will sign forms because that's what the teacher needs, or that's what the school says. Um, we've got to be really, really careful that we don't even inadvertently just create a situation where somebody is labelled or identified through that process. And you know, on the back of that, we talk about confidentiality and anonymity. Well, we can we can't keep things confidential because we're going to publish them or we're going to share them in some way, so immediately I cannot promise confidentiality. I can try to um promise anonymity. However, if I'm working, say, with a group of teachers in a small school, a two-form entry school, say, and I identify. So when I'm speaking to the maths lead, it doesn't take a lot of working out to go, that's at that school. That's that's happened there. So I now know who that maths lead is. So we've just got to be really careful about what we do and how we do it to make sure that we don't do any harm through through that approach.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

So, where can teachers get information about this kind of stuff? Um, because like we said, you know, Wellspring are quite active in this space now and they're trying to um support teachers that want to do research. But what if you are um you know, um in a small school where you don't have that level of of support? Where can you go and find out how to get involved in in research?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

So there's a like I say, various places. One of them is um obviously. Obviously, universities. We do a lot with our practising teachers and our partnership schools. We think it's really important to be able to offer that. If you have a look at things like the British Education Research Association, BIRA, there's often calls for projects that are collaborative there, and they also have a fantastic ethics guide as well. There's a whole lot in terms of social networking where if you look on the likes of Facebook has lots of different groups. That we all still call Twitter, yeah. Twitter has got, you know, there's a lot happening in that space that you can pick up on there. So even if you're not wanting to do sort of a formal collaboration, you may find people that are interested in the same sorts of things as you. Um, you know, local groups, you know, we have um on LinkedIn, for example, those science education networks there. So asking questions in those sorts of groups can be a gentle step forward.

unknown 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Um, I think we've covered off a lot of um of what research um can be, should be, could be um in education and how to get involved in it. Um and we've spoken a little bit about your career, but I'd like to go right back now and find out a little bit about your school days, what schools what school was like for you. So we always do like a little quick fire round. Um first off, easy one. School disco or school trip.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Oh, that's not easy. That's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Um school trip. Did you have any kind of favourites? Do they any of that stand out for you when you you were a kid?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Um, I never did. I did I didn't do either of those at primary school. I was actually really quite reluctant to, which amazes me when I look back now. Um, but school trips in secondary school were just fantastic. We did all sorts. French exchange when the days when you did exchange trips. Oh wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

You got a nice, nice lengthy trip, didn't you? If you did an exchange, it wasn't just like a two-day, you actually got a decent, decent wedge of time. Absolutely. Yeah. Um exams or coursework? Oh, coursework, I think. I'm not sure I was very good at exams. Stressful, aren't they? It's a lot of um lot of anxiety wrapped up in them. One one hit and you're done. Um, maths or English. Oh, English, definitely English. Um competitive sports. No, avoid like the plague.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Okay, I can answer. I don't care what B is. Absolutely could not stand any form of PE or anything at school.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

I think it is one of those marmite things, isn't it? You either adore it or you absolutely can't stand it. No, yeah, absolutely can't stand. Yeah, I was very similar, like hide at the back when they were being picked for anything, didn't want to do any athletics competitions. Oh my god, could I have nightmares about that now? Um, were you a hand straight up or avoid the teacher's eye contact kind of pupil? That's probably a hand straight up. I know the answer, pick me. Um, and I think I already know the answer to this one, actually, after what you've said before. Biology, physics, or chemistry.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Biology. I'm a biologist at heart, but I do love a bit of chemistry. And actually, I did all three at A level. I did biology, chemistry, and physics. Um, but I yeah, biology. I just yeah, it's just it's just everything around us, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, it feels more tangible, doesn't it? I think, you know, in a way. Yeah, you can feel it and touch it and stuff in a way that perhaps you well, you certainly can't with physics, and you you it's trickier to do with chemistry.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Absolutely. There's a reason that Attenborough's made his life out of being a biologist.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't think you'd have the same impact, would you? With a you know, here let's um look at some phosphorus or something, it's just not the same thing. It's not the same, is it? Um right then. And finally, um, the question that we ask everybody, the last one. Um, if I could give you a magic wand and you could change anything you wanted about the education system we've got in this country, no limits, no financial constraints, anything you want, you can do. Um, what would you do?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

That gives a power back to the teachers. Ah I think I think that's the one thing that's lacking. We talk about education having autonomy and agency, and it doesn't really. I think the teachers need some power back to determine what is the best course of action for the children and young people in front of them.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, that's it. It's their um that respect as professionals, isn't it? You know, we if we if we train them and support them properly, then they're the experts, and you know, they know those young people better than better than almost anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

And I think we're just not given the opportunity to do what is best for them because of the constraints of the system.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah, I think that's um I think you get um a lot of teachers that'd be be on board with that. Um might solve some of the um recruitment and retention issues there.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, we also give them lots more time and a hefty pay rise as well to go along it.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Thank you so much for taking the time to have a little chat with us today about research. Um, I know you've got an incredibly busy schedule with lots and lots going on and different positions that you hold. So thank you so much for taking the time out today. Really appreciate it. Not a problem, thank you very much. Right, and thanks to you for listening. We'll be back soon with another episode of the Wellspring Way. Next time we'll be joined by not one but two guests, Associate Principals Adele Lowry and Catherine Heaton, will be talking about their careers and their move into Academy Review and Assurance, as well as their roles as subject leads in EYFS and reading. Till then, take care, and we look forward to you joining us next time.