Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
LEADERS tips for MANAGING UPWARDS (# 1-36)
Episode 36 - Managing Upwards
We all have bosses and/or key stakeholders. Do they only manage us or should we also be managing them? If you can make it work well, there are benefits for them, you, your business and the company as a whole.
Listen in as Neil and I discuss some examples, with tips and techniques on how to get the best from this vital aspect.
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SPEAKER_02:Hey guys, welcome back to Leadership Detective. Good to have you back for another session. Today we want to talk to you about managing upwards. We've all got bosses. Whether you're in a small company, whether you're in a large corporation, even if you own your own business, you may have an investor or some key stakeholders who have some oversight in what you do. So it's quite important that you know how to manage that upward relationship. Managers have managers. So it's not just if you're a professional that you have to struggle with it. Everyone can benefit from you being able to manage upwards effectively. Your business benefits, your people benefit, and you yourself will benefit as well. So I hope you find this discussion useful between Neil and myself, and as we talk about some of the examples and some of the techniques that you can deploy. Neil and I also want to offer a free coaching session for anyone that wants to develop and improve their leadership skills. So if you want to take us up on that, please go to www.leadershipdetectives.com. But for now, listen in, enjoy, and please tell us what you think. Hey, welcome, welcome, welcome back to Leadership Detectives. Here we are for oh gosh, I'm having to go through this. I think we're in episode 35 right now. 35 or 36, yeah. Something like that. So uh welcome, good to see everybody here today. Neil, how are you? You good? I'm pretty good actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, I've had a good uh good day today, very productive, motivated day. It was actually interesting this morning. I um had a conversation with someone who's a coach, it wasn't a coaching session, yeah. But uh we were talking about just stuff in general, working with entrepreneurs and stuff. And he said to me, he said, I was talking about some of the frustrations I have with not getting on with things I want to get on with. And he said, What's stopping you? And I thought, damn, I ask that question all the time. And he asked me that, you know, what's stopping you? And I couldn't think of a good answer. I and I all I could think of was excuses, yeah, yeah. And so actually, just by asking that one question this morning made me productive today because I thought, actually, I haven't got any skills, I just need to get on with this stuff, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so no, I'm feeling good. But it's interesting the conversation you and I had earlier in the week, right? Where we had a lot of different things going on, and it is about stop and just decide what you're gonna do. Yeah, we we know that we can't multitask, we know that. So it is about just decide where you want to spend your time and energy and get on with it, yeah. Um yeah, no, I so what we got in store, what we got in store for the for the guys today, what we're gonna tell them today, all right.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, uh, so we're gonna talk about doing a little drum roll, we're gonna talk about a topic we've been thinking about for ages, which is upward management or managing upwards. Because whilst we spend a lot of time on leadership and how to lead what's below you, it's absolutely critical to manage upwards as well, whether that's your boss, whether it's uh multiple bosses in a matrix-type environment, whether it's to a board of investors, non-exec directors, chairman. So there's there's a whole host of people that you've got to lead upwards as well. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, it's an interesting point, actually, because I think we've said a number of times that leadership is also about being brave and courageous and masking your team from a lot of the stuff that comes down on you from above.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that's fine coming in that direction, but now let's turn it on its head and let's look at how we work in the other direction as well.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so so so so when we think about it, so why is this important then? What would what would you say to the question why it's important to manage upwards?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I would say given that so much of what we want to do with our teams is driven by strategy and direction from above, we don't get the chance a lot of the time to decide what we want to do. We're given direction and we're given strategy that we're there to execute. So being engaged with that and working well with your boss and having a good relationship with your boss or with other people who influence from above, I think that's one reason why I think it's key. I think there's a number of other reasons, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think so. You're you're 100% right. So you there's that uh relationship with your boss makes it better for your team, for your business, for your you know, what you want to get out of it. Um, the thought that came to my mind as you were saying that was so what's the alternative? So don't manage your boss, yeah. Don't manage upwards, yeah. Kind of keep everything a bit of a secret, and then what happens when you go and ask for something?
SPEAKER_02:Well, first of all, there's no relationship, I guess, is one thing, right? Secondly, there could be surprises go either way, right? You could end you you could end up with surprises because you didn't know because you didn't stay engaged, yeah, but you really don't want to have your boss being surprised by things that they should have known, should have known, not nice to have known, should have known. Yeah, I mean, when we were in the sales world, Neil, it was very obvious what the main currency was we were dealing with. We were dealing with deals and relationship with customers, right? So if you're about to lose a customer, you better know your boss knows that's gonna happen and do something to save it. But if you just won a customer, wouldn't you want to go tell your boss that?
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, wouldn't you want to make sure that they know what your team has done to help the business that day or that week because it helps promote your team, it helps your team, and there's nothing wrong with self-promotion. No, so long as it's valid and it's not beefed up to be something it's not, and and then it gives them something that they can talk about to their boss because remember, they've got bosses too. Yeah, so it gives them an opportunity to have something on their radar, and you know, I can think of many examples where I've told someone something and I didn't know they had a meeting an hour later, and it's given them something positive to go to their boss or their board and say, we just won this deal or this has just happened.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think I think there were a couple of the good whys there, right? Um, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So I guess one of the things I want to start with though, on this, and it's really interesting. I'll just tell you a little story. Uh, so I had a phone call from someone the other day talking about their boss, now quite a young person, uh, and they're new in the role, and they were saying to me, my boss doesn't seem to be engaging with me at the moment, and I feel like I'm not doing a good enough job because I don't know whether I'm doing the right things. Um, and I said, Well, look, just remember that they're human too. Don't assume it's anything to do with you. It, you know, they're at home sitting in front of Zoom, they've got kids running around, they're probably feeling some of the pressure or some of the the uh motivational challenges that people feel at the moment. Yeah, so just I one of the first tips I give anyone when it comes to how do I manage my boss is remember they're humans too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, really good point. Really good point.
SPEAKER_05:Um what's your experience of that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, but you know, I've always I've always tried to have a really good relationship with my boss, right? I've always tried to be open and also on a formal and informal level, right? Um, I I recognize you're my boss, right? And I recognize you've got authority over me, and I recognize you're in control of my pay and rations and my promotion and all that. I get all that, but I also recognize that we're both human and we might end up having a beer one day, or we might just be talking about our families or whatever. And again, I I'm I don't feel awkward at separating those two things, right? I don't think I've got a really good relationship with you. That means that I've now got a let on not delivering what I've been uh appointed for. So that again, it comes down to how comfortable you feel having that relationship. Uh, but I've I've most of the time I've always had bosses, and then then I look at it and go, Is have I just been lucky, Neil, with the right bosses, or has it been my approach that's worked, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, true. Although you haven't always had great relationships with some of your senior bosses, so it does it, it works with the ones who want to have a relationship, yeah. Yeah, um, but you know, and and actually that's a really important point as well. And I was kind of talking to someone yesterday about a frustration they have with their boss, you know, they're in a meeting and he he he kind of sabotaged the meeting, didn't really help. And he was asking me, so how should I go and talk to my boss about this? And you you so you know, you've got to be careful because firstly you've got to remember, A, they're humans, be they're your boss. And in this particular case, the guy is uh very senior and owns a big part of the company. So you you've got to actually go, okay, what am I hoping to achieve by having this conversation? Is it for my ego to make me feel better that I've told him that I'm pissed off? Yeah, yeah, or is it actually because I really want to try and fix something? And is it fixable? Or is that just the way they are? And giving them feedback actually might not make any difference. So there is a way of you've got to gauge that is it worth doing, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_05:What about have you fed back? Have you ever had to give you know tough conversation with a boss about something you knew you didn't want them to do or you were unhappy that they'd done?
SPEAKER_02:I think I've had I have had tough conversations with bosses about their behavior. Um, now for those of you that listen to other episodes, you'll know about one of those, but we won't go down that. I'll go more down a line of how they've worked with me and my team. Yeah. And the fact that when we're in a a general team meeting, he seems to treat me differently. When we're sitting in a in a leadership meeting in a room, he seems to treat me differently than when I walk into his office and we have a chat. And what is that? I don't understand that. Um, now in the back of my mind, I do. It's about position and it's about he's at the front of the room and he's got his stat. But I said that doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for me because I don't know what I'm dealing with. I don't know which boss I'm coming in to see today, and I have a problem with that. Um, but I also understand why they came from that point of view. So did it change anything? No. But did it allow us to have the conversation for them to know how I felt about it? And for them, actually, it it became quite apologetic. They didn't mean to make me feel uncomfortable. And I said, but but that's the effect it's having, so it was worth the conversation. I say it didn't change anything in their behavior because that's their style, yeah. But I think our relationship was better having had that conversation, and now it could have gone the other way, Neil. It could have got very messy, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think that's why you've got to be very careful about deciding to have those conversations or not, yeah. Um, but it does make a good point though, actually, about you know, it comes back to the human being piece, yeah, is quite often you do see a a senior executive, a board member almost performing a role when they're in a group environment reviewing you because uh they they are human too, they've got fears as well, they've got egos as well, and be they're being viewed by their peer group, perhaps, or they're being viewed by your peer group, and uh so so they have to perform a certain role in those types of environments. So I kind of again it's about understanding. If you understand that they need to appear to be the boss, if you understand that they've got an ego, if you understand that they might be scared or fearful, then I guess you can play to that as well to help manage them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, my tip for our audience here would be put yourself in their chair.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:Put yourself in their shoes, put yourself in their role and say, if you were there, how do you think you would handle that and why? And why do you think that's so different from what they're doing? If indeed it is different, because you might put yourself in their chair and go, Do you know? I I guess I'd probably do the same thing. So just do that, guys. I mean, it's it's it's always good to put yourself in, you know, a bit of empathy and put yourself in their position and see what you think, how you think you would act.
SPEAKER_05:Really, really key point. And it's because if you think about sales, it's the same thing. How would a customer react if you if you were in this? But but actually, you I think you can accelerate that learning rather than trying to guess it. And I think that you know, as I was writing down some tips for today, this was my number one tip was okay go and ask your boss or with or your upward manager, go and ask them what is it they want and need from you. Be really up, ask the question, don't wait for them to come to you, go to them and ask them so that you can understand, then you get it clear, right? You know, I just want to clarify: you said you want this, this, this, and this from me. Got it now. I'm gonna go and do that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And and and why should that be such an awkward thing, guys? There's no reason why you couldn't have that conversation and you get it really clear early on. You don't waste energy and time maybe doing things you don't need to do, you don't create reports you don't need to create, you know, you you because you might be over-egging this because you feel you've got to cover all the bases and it isn't what they want. And the best relationship you can have with your boss is that they're clear about what they want from you and that they tell you they'll come and ask you if they want something different or more.
SPEAKER_05:I I think that's and and don't don't wait to try and guess because you're probably, you know, if this is where you get misalignment because you think they want something and they want something else, so then you've got a mismatch. And when you've got a mismatch, someone's gonna get frustrated. Yeah, you've got frustrated because you've either over you've done too much or you've frustrated because you've done too little.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Uh I had a great example actually last year. I was coaching someone who just got a new boss about three months in, and he said, I'm really trying to um understand what they want from me because I'm not sure whether they want me to update them daily, whether they want a weekly uh review of how we're doing. And these are quite senior people, um, you know, he's he's not a very touchy-feely type guy, you know, so it's not about the relationship, it's just about facts and figures and numbers and stuff. And I said, Well, just go ask him. Go ask him how what he wants from you and how he wants to manage you. How does he want to lead you? And he did that, got a really clear answer, which was just tell me if anything, if I need to know anything, so I'm not embarrassed. Make sure I get to know for any good news. Um, and I only need to talk to you once a week. Yeah, that was and it was dead clear, and life was so simple after that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, there might even be a request from your boss that says, and tell me how I can help. I'm happy that you come in and bring me requests for assistance, right? A lot of people stuck in the office in senior roles love the chance to go to a client, right? So if you've got a situation that can be helped by him coming to the client or her coming to the client, then invite her along, right? She'd probably be glad to be there.
SPEAKER_05:So that was something I wanted to talk about today as well, actually, is how to use your boss or your upward management, how to use them to help you internally and externally. So let's just talk about that for a second. So, what advice would you have on the best way of using your your upward management to help you internally with your team?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, one thing I would say is they've got a further reach than I have, and they're dealing with other departments and functions across in a large corporation across the piece. So they've got further reach, they've got further visibility, they got further contact. They could represent my team wherever they were. They could talk about how our team had value or don't add value. Why would they say they don't add value?
SPEAKER_03:You wouldn't do that.
SPEAKER_02:They can talk about that. They can talk about where we could team with other teams and collaborate to get better um outcomes and synergies, right? They can talk about that easier than we can, but they can only do that if they're knowledgeable about what value we can present. So I think that's one area, Neil, that I would say they could do good is having a wider reach and visibility than we do.
SPEAKER_05:And what about your boss speaking to your team? Would that add value?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, always, always. And you know, how many times have we got them down to uh if we've had an event to have them up on stage giving an opinion about the overall business is one thing, about the overall state of the nation, should I say, and then about their opinion of how well we're doing. Now it's a risk, it's a risk if you haven't teed up with your boss about where they feel unhappy about your team because they might fire some shots, right?
SPEAKER_05:So it's important to brief them well, to say you're you're you're coming to my team, and I want you to say this. I want you know, you I can't tell you what to say, but I want you to stick in these areas. Um and but you you know, it's interesting you say, yeah, of course, we do that, but actually a lot of people don't. They don't think they think their boss is a you know, I'm not going to bring him in to talk to the team, that would be a threat, that would be a problem. But actually, brief them in the right way, your team feels good about it, your boss feels good about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, by the way, it's also really good reinforcement. If you've got a specific area you've been banging on about to your team that needs to be done, for your boss to come in and position why that area is important in the overall picture, just reinforces your message to your team, right? Supports you guys, it's it's it's a tool without you know, um not representing your boss well here, right? But it but you can use that as a tool to actually reinforce what you're saying is important, correct.
SPEAKER_05:And then if you look externally, so how can you use your upward management in an external environment with your customers? You know, again, I mean, what would your advice be on that?
SPEAKER_02:I I think it's also because if you look at the seniority of who you're dealing with in the client, if you suddenly realize they brought their boss in, you need to have your boss there, possibly, if it's a seniority thing, right? Because it does talk about how important this deal is to the company. The fact you have your boss there elevates the the value of that deal. So so think about that, right, guys. You this might just be your boss who you see every day, but to somebody else, it's the general manager, right? That means something. So that brings out that also you'd like to believe that your boss has got some good knowledge and experience about the overall business, which again positions things well and and it and it adds value in terms of what you're taking to that customer in what you're trying to sell to them.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think it it it's the important there's a couple of important things, and it's internal or external. One of them is they they make sure, especially with the customer, you're engaging them early. If you bring them in to build a relationship with senior people in a company, and you're doing it when there's a problem or toward the towards the end of a deal, it looks a bit desperate or it looks like it's there's a problem. So do it early, get the relationship going, even if it's just a handshake, just to say hello, so they can then make a phone call later. Key thing is briefing and controlling. Yeah, you you have to, as a sales leader, salesman, you have to control where your boss is doing and what they're doing because I've seen it go wrong many times where they haven't been briefed, they haven't been controlled, and it's undone something that was going well.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the the point you've been fighting on negotiation with this client week after week after week, your boss comes in and goes, Yeah, no problem, we can do that, right? Yeah, you've been holding that as your ace card in your pocket. Yeah, um, I think the other thing is another health warning on this, guys, is make sure you don't get dispositioned by that. Bringing your boss in is fine, but make sure, come back to Neil's point about control. You still own the deal, you still own the relationship. Be careful you don't suddenly put these guys, the senior guys, into the rot, and now you all get shoved down, and suddenly you you now you're now you become a pawn rather than you know the person leading the game.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's really really key as well. So, and I so I think that there's a there's a piece around um, so we've talked about asking your boss what they need from you and how they will want to manage you. I think there's a piece also of going to your boss and saying, This is how I like to be managed, this is what I need from you. I need you to tell me if I'm doing okay. I need you to, you know, it might be that. Some people don't need that. I need you to tell me if I'm doing something wrong, I need to just have half an hour with you every week just so I can go through anything that's outstanding or anything I want to talk to you about. Um, and I, you know, and I need maybe I need you to have my back or whatever it is that you need to as a person to be managed and how you need to be managed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, how otherwise, how are they gonna know? No, exactly. And look, and that that might work, right? It might be, yeah, great, thanks for asking. So, this is how I'd like it to be. Let's talk once a month, blah, blah, blah. They might say, Look, just go away, I'll let you know if I need anything. But that might be their style. That's fine. There's if sometimes you might not be able to make that work, guys. So I don't think with Neil and I've got a fix for everything here because some people might not want that kind of relationship. But I think some people would appreciate the fact that you've said, Tell me how we should engage. How do you want that to be? Do you want an email from me, or would you rather have a phone call? You know, do you want to hear from me every week, or do you just you only want to hear when there's something extraordinary, good or bad? Right? It's just a conversation, right? What why why wouldn't you do it?
SPEAKER_05:And it leads, you know, that's where communic communication is kind of the final point I wanted to talk about in this topic is it's it we talked about keeping people informed, but it's it when it comes to communication, there's the formal regular communication, you know, the quarterly business reviews, the monthly business reviews, those kind of things where you need to make sure you're well prepared, you know, you there's no holes in what you're going to say, and you so you you know you're coming across as someone who's in control of your area of the business, and you're representing your team and doing a good job representing them, and then there's the informal stuff, the stuff that they they need to know because they don't want to be exposed or embarrassed, or they might want to know something as we talked about earlier, good news that they can share. Yeah, so those things are really, really key as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and I think agreeing with them, this might sound a little bit over the top, but I think agreeing with them, what is their preferred method of communication? Some people like just a quick message on WhatsApp, great, or a quick SMS text, that's great. Some people want an email, some people want you to pick up the phone and actually talk to them. You probably you may know your boss's pattern. I had a boss, by the way, who we used to work in London and his home was Richmond. I know roughly what time he would be traveling to and from, and that he'd be in his car with a driver, right? He was senior enough to have his own driver. And I know that he did a lot of his communication with his team in his vehicle for that drive, which is probably 45 minutes to 60 minutes, depending on traffic, right? So I knew I could always get him, and I can tell you now, Friday night was a regular chat. Him and I, he would phone me. He phoned me once on a Friday night. True story, guys, and we chatted for about 20 minutes and said, Did you want anything, by the way? And he went, No, just call for chat. How's a weekend? What's going on? There was nothing to it, right? He just wanted to touch base, and and he was probably bored in the back of the car as well, right? So decide with your boss what's a good method of communication. They prefer email, WhatsApp, SMS. Again, that's just a fair thing because you might send a WhatsApp and not hear anything for you know a day and then say, What the hell? Well, maybe he doesn't look at WhatsApp, right? Or she doesn't look at WhatsApp, you don't know that. So, again, it's worth knowing so you'll know whether you're being ignored or whether you just don't fit with their communication methods. That's fine.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think so that's where the formal and informal comes in. Make sure there is a formal management system in place, and you know, even if they haven't put one in place, you put one in place, yeah. And then the informal that that depends on who they are and how that's going to work. Yeah, but I think there's um one point I really want to make is if you know, and I do a lot of coaching with people who are struggling with their bosses, you know, they moan about their boss, they moan about you know constant interruptions, or they've I have to say to people, look, you own this, you own how you manage your boss and how they manage you. You can control, you can't always control it, you know. If they're an arsehole, you can't necessarily manage that, right? But you can have a lot of influence over managing that human being, influencing that human being, and helping them be better at what they do so you can be better at what you do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I tell you, there's one other area I just want to touch on. Yeah, you and I talked a while ago about um how to manage your career. We had one session about managing your people's career and one about managing your own career. Yeah, there is a piece here about managing your career. This is not all about that, but there is a piece here about that. If you want recognition for the things you're doing, if you want to be rewarded for the things you're doing, then someone needs to know you're doing them, right? Don't make the assumption that through the formal governance that that is taken as, and this is the value that Neil Thuburn is creating. And there's again, you need to feel comfortable with it, guys, but representing the value you've driven for the organization that then benefits your boss as well, there's no reason why you couldn't put that forward as messages. Now, if you're going to go over the top and every week check in and say these are all the good things I've done, that's a bit over the top. But there's no reason why you shouldn't keep your boss at breast. And if you don't, and then you don't get promotion or you don't get recognized financially, don't be surprised because maybe the message didn't get through.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, uh it's again it's a good point. I do say to people, you know, put um your boss, your customers, they don't have tarot cards. Yeah, you know, they're not getting spiritual guidance on what you're doing for them. You you know, if you're doing a good job for a customer, make sure you're telling them. If you're doing a good job with your boss, make sure you're telling them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:It is a good job, you know, not because you think it's good and actually it's not, but um, so look, there's lots there about managing upwards, but take responsibility, remember they're human, make sure you understand what they want, understand what and make sure they understand what you want, and then and then use them you know as part of your toolkit for how you manage your team and how you manage your external yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:So, so look, here's us giving this advice in a general form to uh an audience that we hope is dialing in and and we know that we've got a reasonable following at the moment. But I think Neil, you want to talk directly to on a one-to-one basis.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so look, if anybody would like one-to-one coaching session, a free one-to-one coaching session on their leadership, their management, or them personally, we're offering that. Um, so please reach out to us if you go to leadershipdetectives.com and just put a note in there to connect with us, and then we'll come back to you and we'll just set up a time when we can uh talk. Love to love to look at how we can help you uh going forward.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, close up, mate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so guys, I hope that's been useful for you. Uh, we wanted to make it very conversational because it's a topic that can go in various areas. So I hope that was useful. Um, hope you want to take Neil up on the offer that he's put forward there. But in the meantime, as well, thank you for your uh for your ratings and for your subscriptions. Please keep that coming in. If you've got any said suggestions on other topics that you want, let us know. We've got some new stuff coming up for you fairly soon. So good to talk to you guys. All the best and speak to you again soon. Cheers, mate. Great. So you have a good weekend. And you take care.
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