Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
LEADERSHIP LESSONS from skippering a yacht: Interview with Adrian Thornton (# 1-33)
Episode 33 - An Interview with Adrian Thornton, RYA Yatchmaster Instructor & Examiner
In this episode we take a look at leadership within a leisure pursuit and industry away from our more usual corporate and commercial worlds. A slightly different angle from Adrian, on the leadership skills required to be the skipper of a yacht, on and off the water.
Some good examples that share his insight and messages. We hope you enjoy.
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SPEAKER_02:Hey guys, welcome back to Leadership Detective. Welcome to episode 33. We're going to be here today with Adrian Fons. Adrian is an RYA yacht master instructor and a yacht master examiner. Neil's known Adrian for many, many years, and they've worked together to get Neil as proficient as he is today out on the water. We take a look at leadership here from within this industry, this ledger pursuit, this walk of life. We're coming at things slightly differently than we normally do when looking at things from the views of a boardroom or corporate or commercial world that we so often get involved with. Adrian's got some great examples and some messages to share with you, so let's not hold you back any longer. Dive in, enjoy, and please let us know what you think. Have fun. Hey, welcome, welcome back to the Leadership Detectives. Here we are for episode 33. Fantastic. Now we're going to have 33 episodes. 33 episodes. Coming up to the end of January in 2021. Fantastic. Neil, how are you? Good to see you here. You good?
SPEAKER_03:I'm outstanding, mate. Loving the snow. We've got beautiful snow here. It's been out fab about running in the mornings around here. And I'm also delighted and excited to be joined by uh Adrian Thornton today, who is my uh my instructor for my sailing. You know, people will know I'm very keen on sailing, and Adrian's been training me for the last couple of years to be a skipper. And uh so delighted to have you join us. Thanks for joining us, Adrian. And how are you?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, good morning, gents. Yes, good, thank you. Just um uh desperate to get back on the water because the thing called COVID has been in the way a lot, but yeah, looking forward to it whenever it happens. And whereabouts in the world are you, just so everyone knows where you are. I'm uh I live in Bournemouth. Uh I'm a chief instructor to a certain company, but uh the main thing I believe for this really is that I'm a yacht master, instructor, and examiner. But yeah, I live in Bournemouth. I've got my own boat, private boat, uh just five minutes' drive away. And I generally do the sailing or instructing in particular around the south coast of the UK.
SPEAKER_03:And so so I've sailed with Adrian now, say, for a couple of years, and uh really great, great, great instructor. We learned so much from him over the years. Um, and Albert, you know, we've been out on the boat a few times, and the reason you've been safe on board is thanks to Adrian.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, absolutely. Adrian, thank you. You're so you you've been keeping me safe as well, so I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_03:So let's launch straight in, shall we, and get the the kind of the interview going. Yeah. I'd like to start off with a question that's kind of just gonna help introduce you a little bit to the audience who might not know you. Um, so what I'd like to ask you is if you were being introduced onto stage, so you were gonna onto stage, mixed audience of people from all sorts of backgrounds, what would you want them to know about Adrian Thornton that the introducer is going to introduce you on stage?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's slightly complicated. I've got I've had two careers. This is my second career as such. So I think the the first thing would be hello, this is Adrian Thornton. He's here to chat about sailing. And he is a yacht master instructor and examiner, so he knows a little bit uh on the subject. He comes from a military background, um, uh which really enhanced or started and enhanced his sailing career. Something like that, Neil.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, all right, fantastic. That's good. So we know a little bit about you. We wanted to pull this. The the reason we wanted to pull this together was um just sort of it's it's a really interesting topic because I've been doing lots of training around being a skipper of a boat, and you know, that's a yacht, but it could be a motorbar or any kind of boat. And and there's the skipper is the leader of the boat, so there's a leadership role in there somewhere, uh, and but we when we do the training, we do lots of technical training, we do lots of training around navigation and around how to sail the boat, and and not so much around being a leader. So I thought it'd be really interesting just to pick your brains on on being a leader on a boat. So, what do you think are the key things that make a good skipper a good leader of a boat?
SPEAKER_04:I think, first of all, he or she, let's just go down the E-route, make it easier, um, needs to have the background, the the foundations of theory and practical aspects of sailing. Then they gain their own experiences and confidence to then say, Hey, um Albert, can you pull this rope? Can you do this? Can you do that? And uh so we mentioned about sort of natural leaders, etc. But you've got to have to me, you've got to have those experiences, a certain level of experience, whether you think you're a leader or not, just to impart that knowledge, just to say, can you pull this or can you push that as a starter?
SPEAKER_02:That that's interesting, actually, because that kind of suggests that you need to be a master of the craft to be a leader in that topic. Is that what you think?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, um, and of course, there are different levels of mastery. Um, we can talk about the various levels of qualif experiences and qualifications of sailing. Yeah, you you by rights, you should be familiar with that boat or that that vessel, that vessel. Not necessarily familiar with the crew, which is part of the leadership, which we will probably talk about later.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Mastery of good knowledge of the workings of that boat, just like you would getting into your car or a car.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You need to know roughly what things do left and right, and then to be able to impart that knowledge to the crew.
SPEAKER_03:Which is which is interesting, actually, because it's different to the kind of the business world where you can lead a business without actually knowing the nuts and bolts of how of what they do in the factory and what they do uh you know in the warehouse, because you're you're leading a team of people that do know what to do. Um, so that's interesting. Okay, so that was number one. What would what's what would you say are other leadership skills that are really important for a skipper to have?
SPEAKER_04:I think, particularly on the water, um, is to be calm and not panic, not shout. I've had um a couple of uh examples. Uh I if I shout, it's probably because I'm racing, and you're allowed to do that when you're racing against boats and shouting at boats. But as just basic cruising around the world, you shouldn't need to shout at a person, at a crew member. You may be shouting because the wind is strong, but that's a different type of tone of voice. So you can get your voice through the wind and not a not verbally attack a um your friend, your brother, your sister, your crew. So it's it's calmness, um, making sure that you can deliver and they acknowledge what you're trying to deliver, whether it's by voice or by your hands showing them something. Yeah, calmness um is pretty top of my list. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:So that's but that's that's that's interesting actually. Because so we had a similar conversation with a firefighter crew manager, and in your terms, we're talking about the difference between leadership on the water as opposed to on shore and in preparation for going on the water. So tell us about the two different types of leadership in that regard.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, on the water, it's again it comes down to calmness, but you you only to me you gain the calmness by having the experience, the knowledge, etc. Uh so yeah, just an example you know, simply just make getting the boat to move from a pontoon and get it moving towards the water. You need to educate a little bit, uh, your your crew, but it's just keeping an eye. Uh Albert, could you do this? Um, Neil, can you do this? Uh when I when I when I ask you to, and hopefully that all goes swimmingly and uh out sailing, you know, out in the open sea. It's the same thing. Albert, uh, can you can you do this? Neil, can you do this?
SPEAKER_03:But that to me sounds like um communication is really key because you're communicating in advance and in a calm way rather than expecting someone to know what to do.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, and that that comes into the different categories of the experience of the crew that you've got on that day. So um I've there well, I've got one analogy, is um, I think you were there, Neil, the round the island race is a big uh round uh round the island of uh the island of white each year. And uh the company that I mainly work for, and Neil's involved with, uh, we take one or two boats around on that race. But the day before we have a practice session, and I may know Neil, and but there's generally about 10 people on the boat. I may know their names, but more than likely I haven't sailed with three-quarters of them ever. So I need to train them up not just to cruise a boat, but to be involved with 1,500 other yachts the next day racing. So I've got to teach them a little bit without much time. Um, and but also I need to delegate jobs because I cannot do them all. So, Neil, can you look after this section? Albert, can you look after this section? And I I can't rush into it. Uh, I need to sort of make sure that they're at a reasonable level and they're they're accepting what I say, and that system works. Um, or or you get the and hopefully we all bond together within a few hours or that day, ready to go racing the next day or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03:What's interesting, I'm gonna come back to this calmness thing, actually. I think there's a little bit of a layer down underneath that because having sailed with you, you are incredibly calm in situations where I wouldn't be. But and I know a lot of that is experience as well. Um I'm guessing what advice would you have for maybe a newer skipper? So someone who is not as experienced, uh so they're maybe they're a day skipper or a coastal skipper, so they're a couple of years in, maybe they're just their first year of skipping a boat on their own. What advice would you give them on tactics for remaining calm? So, how to create that atmosphere so that they kept that that is created?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, good question. There's two two ways of going around that in broad spectrum. Um the the sailing fraternity, it's not like driving a car on a road, things that it's different weather, different surface, etc. So every day is different, as far as I'm concerned, not a boat. So you can't say, Oh, it I did this yesterday, I can do exactly the same thing today. Unlike driving from here to Tesco, there's a bit more traffic, but the roads, the roads stay the same. Well, the roads don't stay the same on the water. So you've got to gain you. So one way is to gain your own experience without continuously going, uh increasing the geographical boundaries. So if you're used to sailing or you've been learning to sail in within a 20-mile radius of somewhere, well, and you've got the then you've got the qualification. Well, stay within that 20 miles and do more trips to gain your experiences within that familiarity of geography. The other way, and in fact, I like to encourage both, is to bring along an instructor or bring along somebody who you know is better than you, more experienced than you as a sailor, just to help. So you're still the skipper, but that person can whisper in your ear and say, Well, you know, maybe we could do this, maybe we could do that. So you're you're trying to use your own experiences and your own brain power to convert that into the sailing area of the day, but you've got somebody whispering in your ear. You there aren't books that say you go, you know, go sailing, yes, but it doesn't say this is how you become a leader on a on uh on a boat in a book, as far as I understand.
SPEAKER_03:I know I'm just thinking on the calmness thing, and I'm thinking of you know in the business world, but also in my kind of experience from the the military, is one of the ways to create calmness when there is not calmness is having standard, uh having not well prepared in advance, good preparation, so that um you people know you've kind of done all the preparation in advance. Like you know, when I go sailing with you, you know, there's no way we're going sailing without having the right chart out. You know, if you haven't got the right chart out, then suddenly you've gone from being calm to panicking because you haven't got the right uh information in front of you, or you haven't got the radio switched on, or something. So that that preparation's got, I think, has to form part of it. And and uh it's the same in in business if you want to avoid any kind of panic. But the other thing which you've just said there is about rehearsal.
SPEAKER_04:It sounds like that's a key part of it as well, is this the experience through doing it lots, which yeah, uh, and again, you you can read a little bit, but then you've got to get out into the practical world. It's like reading a manual for you know how to operate a car. Um, great, thanks. But then you sit and then you've got to turn the engine on, etc. Yeah, you've got to get out there. Um there's two ways. I I've lost my thread here a little bit, so please ask another question. Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_02:I I I would think just something else to mention that. So this is only my second time talking to you, Adrian, right? But but certainly what I pick up is your temperament and you are a calm person, from what I can see. I've not been on a boat with you, and heal might tell me different, right? But your temperament and your desire for people to enjoy, I think is really important because you've got to put people at ease when they get on that boat, right? What you don't want is people a lot of panicky in a team that you've never dealt with before. So that in itself is a challenge. Um, but it I think it's something probably comes to you quite naturally. But tell us about that, tell us about having a team on board your boat that you've never met before, because that's part of what happens in your world, right?
SPEAKER_04:It is, and and there's two sort of more different scenarios. Um it's just uh I'll go back to the round the island race, round the island of white race, meeting everybody at one day. Hello, you know, who are you and what what do you do? I ask them if they have any sailing strengths, if they know how to you know steer, do they uh can they navigate reasonably? And I'm not talking about qualifications, I'm just talking about have you been out with your family or your or your or your mate? Yeah, and and then I'll try, and this is where it comes to a little bit of delegation, it's just having a chat first and say, hello, what do you do? And would you like to navigate for me? And if you see, by this stage, I've already sort of started looking into their eyes, and they say, No, thank you. Um, and uh so I probably have seen that anyway, so I won't ask them. So it's just trying to work out get getting them involved early in the process of getting the boat safe later on.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's interesting because that's that's about the str playing to people's strengths, which in a lot of teams we focus on their weaknesses and try and improve them rather than let's work on your strengths and we'll play to those strengths. So, is do you think that's is that an important part of or what how do you deal with that if you've got loads of people that are really good at the same thing?
SPEAKER_04:Um as one old saying, uh, the art of leadership is delegation. Yeah. Um, it so then I've got to have the that experience. I think, oh well, Neil's uh Neil's eyes are bigger and brighter than Albert's. So okay, Neil, you can navigate. And Albert, how do you fancy steering for me? Um again, this comes through, unfortunately, a lot of you know a lot of experience. Uh, you know, how okay, I've got six people who want to steer the boat. Well, maybe, maybe Albert, you could do it for the first 20 minutes, then then Neil, can you take over? So it's just yeah, obviously trying to keep people happy um because they're out there to enjoy, yeah. You said earlier, they're out there to enjoy themselves. But later on in sailing fraternity, when you want to progress, so I'm not talking about newcomers and I'm whether I know them or not, but they are experienced. Then if uh if if Neil says, Oh, I'm good at I'm I'm not very good at uh steering, but I'm good at navigation, what I'm going to then say, Neil, now's your turn. Uh Albert can do that. This is your little shortfall that we've identified or you've identified. Let's let's tackle that a little bit, but hopefully not going past your comfort threshold too early. And uh, you know that's where we're coming to where the qualifications come in at higher up a level that you're just uh on the on the brink of that I will put you out of your comfort zones. Um, but that's more to do with getting a qualification rather than you know fun cruising.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it's interesting. And uh you have done that when you've been teaching for certain. You've you've when I've said I want to go into a berth backwards, you said now you're going in forwards this time. But um, so what one of the things I'm really interested in though is if you've got delegation, so delegation you then have a management system because you've got to then check in that people are doing what you asked them to do. So, how does that work on a boat? How do you, as a leader, how do you check in without interfering?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, um, I sort of have an advantage that I'm also an examiner, so I can just say, Albert, take me to Bournemouth and and you know, tell me when you're ready. So I can I can sort of sit back and uh watch you tell your crew, you know, can you pull this, can you push that, etc.? Um, but coming back to the a leader, it's him him or herself, that again it's it's not in a book. I I just say, Neil, can you do this? Albert, can you do this? I don't want to cow over your shoulder, but I am my eyes are wandering around, just having a little look. Is Neil doing this? Is Albert doing this? Um even in the early days, hopefully I've told Neil how to pull or push something and shown him, but at some stage I want Neil to be able to do it himself, but I'll still have a little look. Uh, and it's up to me as to whether I need to be half a meter away or 10 meters away in case you you get your fingers in a mess or something like that. So it's it's progression and it's um in the early days. I don't know whether Neil can pull the string as I want him to. So we're both experiencing each other, and how far do we go? Well, that's down to me to say stop or great, carry on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I tell you what comes to mind in this is we've talked before about one of the really important uh assets of a manager is being able to communicate your mission. And I'm just thinking here, do you ever discuss the mission with the crew? Because is the mission about getting there or is the mission about having fun? How does that play with your world?
SPEAKER_04:That's a that's a very good point. Yeah. Um it's nice to me. If I just said, okay, guys, uh let's turn the engine on, let's go. Well, what where are we going, Skipper? Where are we going, leader? Um, hopefully I know that I've already decided where we're going. But it is nice to have a 30-second chat. Um, you're not saying, Neil, can you see her and Albert, can you navigate it? It's guys, it the the weather is here, this is this is happening. Um, can let's uh let's go to Bournemouth. Um and then we prepare it. And and within reason, each skipper, it is nice to sit around a chart, so not a nice big C map saying, we are here and we need to do this to get to there. Um and it's gonna take us, yeah, take us the day. So uh, and then we'll, you know, at some stage I'll ask different guys to do different things, but I'll show them roughly where we're going, where we're going for the day and where we're going for the night. So, yeah, it really is nice to me for me for the crew to have a picture of where are we going, what are we doing?
SPEAKER_03:So what's um which is so that's that kind of briefing, the vision, the brief in at the beginning and telling people what to do and allocating tasks. And something that comes to mind with the and maybe this is on slightly bigger boats where you might have a department type, so you've got let's say um, I don't know, where you've got a a uh a four-deck crew and you've got a starboard crew, a port crew, you know, so you've got your um and a helm and the and then you've got a skipper and you're delegating tasks around the boat, or it might be a motorboat where you've got you know different uh deck crews and stuff like that. Um how do you do you do you delegate through the leaders of those teams? Is that the best way of doing it?
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, the the bigger the boat, the more you need to be able to rely on a on a couple of other people that you know have experience. And that um that batch of people is generally called after guard. Is it? I didn't know that.
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SPEAKER_04:You've got a dozen crew, you'll have the skipper, a mate, and maybe one or two other experienced people. That gang is called the afterguard. Uh, don't ask me where that comes from, it's probably 500 years old or something. Um and then so you can you can impart knowledge to your afterguard as the as the skipper, as the leader, and they'll look after, as you say, their own foredeck or their own midships or the cockpit, uh, with a view that you're relying on them, that they know their job, and they can impart their knowledge. If in doubt, the skipper, the leader, will gather around and say, you know, we need to, we need all, you know, all 12 of us need to do this. And I'm gonna show you how it happens and I'll delegate people to do it. Um, and then, yeah, so the bigger the boat, the harder it is to communicate without, as I said before, without shouting or using throat mics and things like that. You do see that, don't you?
SPEAKER_03:You see throat mics and and on the big boats where they can't hear you in the bow.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, uh it can be it can be useful, but also to me, there's um a lot the eye contact is still very relevant. Um, that's so if you're on a throat mic, yeah there's no lips possibly, and there's no eyes. Um so uh um my wife's auntie is totally deaf, has been deaf since the age of 12. I might be deviating here, but so we took a sail, yeah, we did took a sailing when she was 40 plus years old. And with blind people, with deaf people, you obviously need to they need to see your lips. Yeah, yeah. Um, I worked that out having talked to her in parties, etc. etc. her lip, her communication is fantastic, but on a boat, she can be turning her wrong way. So before we even stepped on our boat, I said to my wife's auntie, you must look at me whenever you can. And so she would have fun over there, but she'd always look at me, and I would just put a hand up and focus on her. So there's you know, with leadership, there's a lot of eye content. I said earlier that I can sort of picture people and see whether their eyes are going like rabbits in front of car headlights. I don't like that job. So it's up to me to sort of work that out and say, okay, well, how about you know, Tom, can you do that instead? Yeah, but yeah, it's uh the leadership you've got to, as you said, delegation, you've got to try and well, give yourself the leader needs to give themselves a bit of room to stand back and then oversee those groups over there or those individuals over there. And it's better to have a bigger picture. That's one of the things that in sailing, the skipper by rights, when when the skipper can or the leader should be towards the back of the boat. So they're behind every other human being on there when they can, so they can see the boat and the whole picture of all the crew, whatever they're doing. Because if they're in the middle, they're looking around and missing things and possibly in the way. And that's one of the things about leadership is stand back, let them do their jobs because they know roughly what they're doing, or they know exactly what they're doing, and let them have fun. So that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know the the the big the big difference on picking up of leadership on a yacht is that maybe I'm wrong with this, Adrian, but it sounds like you are always watching and monitoring, and you never let go. Whereas in a boardroom or running a business, Neil, we're not expected to always be watching. Is that is that a fair assumption?
SPEAKER_04:That's that's pretty good in uh inshore waters, uh where there's uh more vessel traffic on the water or land for unfortunately for people to hit into. If you're going on a passage from just across the Channel to France or across the Atlantic, the skipper must sleep, for example. So the skipper that leader must have faith in one or two other people who are awake whilst he he or she can get some sleep. But again, you know, that he or she they've got that leader's got to determine that for themselves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that that that's interesting because that that then triggers in my mind, because I know we've covered a lot of ground here, Neil. We got time for a couple more. A couple more questions, because we've also had a few stops. Yeah, I mean, that when when you and I spoke last time, Adrian, as we were talking about coming together here, you talked to me about a situation of something that had happened, an incident that had taken place, and you and a colleague had to step in to salvage a situation that was another skipper's challenge, right? Should we talk about that? Should we talk about handling critical situations as a leader?
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely, yeah. Um, and let's not talk sex, gender, etc., etc. Uh, it's irrelevant, but it was a very good scenario that came out without fatality. Um, my family and I were um in a marina in Pool Harbor, having had a good sail and had a couple of drinks, as you do, more than tea and coffee. Um, but the boat was all safe. Uh, next door to us was a race crew in the same arena on the same pontoon right beside us. And they had gone out for dinner or whatever, and it's pretty obvious that they were going to be racing uh the next day because the the way the boat was laid out. Uh, we all went, my must, my family went to bed uh around midnight, midnight thirty. Um, my son and I heard a great big kerfuffle right beside us, then a big splosh. Uh so we did the quick what's happening out here out of our hatches, and my son and I just Grabbed a pair of some trousers or something, stepped onto the pontoon, and it was obvious that there was a large chap, let's say 15 to 18 stone, in the water with all his um sailing gear on, because it was a it was a it was a winter's day and winter racing. So he was fully clad to go to the pub, let alone race uh sailing. He fell in the water, um, he wasn't the skipper, and there were three or four other people there, one being the skipper, and they were just staring and panicking as to what do we do? What do we do with him? So my son and I said, Well, he's got to get out of that water to start with. It's I don't know, I can't remember whether it was December or February, but it's definitely freezing time. And uh we said, Well, you know, who's the skipper? And the lady put her hand up and she said, That's me. And she was panicking more than anything than the other, than the other crew members on the uh on the pontoon with her. And I said, Well, what are you going to do? She said, I don't know. We he's too heavy. So I said to my son, we're getting him out. Um, I won't tell you how we got him out, by hook or by crook. We got him out and landed him on the pontoon. And she was very thankful. And I said, Oh, over to you, or do you want some help or guidance? I wanted that skipper, that leader, to take charge of their own destiny. Um, and she couldn't. She was just, you know, obviously not as experienced as one would like to think. Uh so I said, right, so I started, I took over. I said, right, what you need to do is do this. Take his, get him on the boat, phone for an ambulance, because there's no way you should let him, you know, how long has he been in there? How much water has he drunk out of the out of the uh marina, etc., etc. And please just get into the hospital, whether it's by car or by ambulance, get him there for a checkup. The following morning, um, they decided not to race, strangely. And uh, she said, Thank you very much for last night. Um uh he ended up having a at least a broken collarbone. As to whether that happened on the way in water or on the way out, with my son and myself getting him out of that freezing water, to me is irrelevant. The fact is he didn't drown. Um, but it's such a shame that this is a race crew, which is you know, should be more, you know, more experienced than the basic uh cruising people sometimes, and that skipper fails to deliver that leader.
SPEAKER_03:What advice would you give to skippers then on the best way to lead a crisis situation?
SPEAKER_04:Right, let's go back to sort of a man overboard scenario. So you know, Neil, we've done the idea is to do as many exercises in controlled conditions, is the standard sort of phrase, before as insurance in case something nasty happens, like a man person falling overboard. So we practice man overboard maneuvers, drills, exercises in using engines or sails, and then how do we get that person back under control conditions, I hope, so that we can say, Oh, well, what if this goes wrong? What can we do? Because we can't do that. So we're increasing our knowledge, our experiences of saying, well, let's yeah, let's use that. And whether you're the crew, a crew member or the leader, you're learning these experiences and getting what I call more tools in your tool bag. Yeah, hopefully you pull out the right tool. But yeah, it's um so we try and exercise, you know, all sorts of manoeuvres, hopefully slightly controlled, hopefully under control conditions, and then push the boundaries a little bit to say, what if this happens? What can we do to counteract that? So again, the leadership is saying, come on, let's go out and yeah, okay, let's go to Bournemouth. But on the way, can we just have a little play and throw a fender in the water and try and recover it? So you do a bit rehearsal.
SPEAKER_03:So you do quite as much muscle memory as possible, as much rehearse as possible. Like, but let's say you you know that you're creat you're in a crisis situation. What's the best advice for leadership for the skipper as a leader in that situation when it happens?
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. Yeah, as soon as that leader can, the leader should get um away physically, as in manually, away from that situation if they can, to take charge of the whole boat, whether it's 10 meters or 15 meters of boat, to stand back and say, Neil, can you do that? Albert, can you do that? And again, try and be a little bit patient. You know, speed may be of the essence, but try and again come back to this calm thing. Neil, do this, and Neil knows that I hardly ever say please in in that sort of environment. I just say, Neil, pull that, Albert, steer to port. I don't, I don't extend the sentence to please. Um, so I don't even need to say now, because when I've said it, it does mean now. And that's that's my leadership technique, is uh that people, you know, I need to advise people that um, excuse me, I'm not saying please because I'm I'm not courteous or I don't say now, it's because these things need to happen. So, yeah, standing back in a situation that you that you didn't want, the skippers, the leader should still try and stand back without getting their hands on to see the whole situation.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that that that that thing about not saying please is a good example. Neil and I did a recording about bullying, and we talked about the fact that certain language, certain style of communication is acceptable in different environments, but one might not transfer to the other, right? So clearly in a in a conference room, in a meeting, it might not be acceptable that you don't say please and thank you. But it's completely acceptable in your world because it's about getting the task done, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, uh good point. And when I'm starting to teach newcomers, I'm more than likely will say please, and then I transfer that once they gain experience, I'll say, but I'm not, I'm I'll probably drop my pleases when I think um I need something done a little bit faster. So again, uh it I'm I'm sort of teaching them my my mannerisms, as you just said, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think what's interesting about that leadership message there is, and this would apply to any situation, because it could apply in business as well when something is happening, is take a step back so you can see the whole picture and uh then make decisions on what needs doing, and I think that's uh and then communicate those decisions really clearly and directly. So that kind of sounds like three steps. So stand back, decide what you're gonna do, then communicate clearly and effectively, um, and then see if it's working, and if it's not working, make another decision.
SPEAKER_02:So, Neil, for for our audience, yeah, there's no reason why that doesn't apply in any leadership situation, correct? Any leadership situation.
SPEAKER_03:The the key thing is don't jump in and take over yourself because if you're doing it, you're not leading it. Yeah, I think is the message there. So I've got one more main question. Sorry, Adrian, were you just gonna say something then?
SPEAKER_04:No, no, that's a very good point you've just made.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so I just um one more question I want to ask, kind of, and then we'll go into a few quick fire questions. So on a boat, it's a close confines, you're doing overnight, you're sleeping, you know, odd hours and stuff like that. Um, and whether whatever size boat it is, whether it's a small boat or a big boat, how do you, as a leader, how do you manage conflict situations amongst the crew?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, well, there's a big space of water that you could push them into, but that's that's not it's a technique, right? It's a technique not to be uh not to be promoted. Um yeah, it's uh and I've I've had quite a few conflicts. I think in a small environment, so you know that you're locked in, you know, tent you know, a boat of whatever size, you're locked in and you can't just literally walk off the boat and and swim to you know that that Caribbean island. So it's again the leadership is just to let the crew within reason do what they feel like under education that they're not doing things wrong in the sailing environment, that if the one person just doesn't get on with the other uh for eventually, that to me on a something like a boat, the leader needs to step in quietly and early to the individuals separately. Okay. Then hopefully he's you know nailed it straight away in most circumstances, and just say, look, guys, you can't you can't do this on this boat. Maybe have a chat about it in the pub when we get to the other end. But you we can't have this conflict. Uh, and if you've got any problems, I'm the leader, you have a problem with me rather than the problem amongst yourselves. So the leader should take the flak.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah, and like it sounds like you've got to judge where do you need to step in, because I guess there's some situations where they'll just sort it out amongst themselves. Um, and there's other times where if if you don't step in, you're probably creating a bigger problem by uh uh kind of turning a blind eye to something you should have dealt with.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, and uh, I've heard of a few stories about other leaders, other skippers turning a blind eye, and it escalates.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You mentioned earlier about if you're on a long trip like overnight or something, and you notice that you know a couple of crew members aren't getting on with each other. Well, there's nothing wrong with the skipper, the leader saying, Neil, can you go in with that other crew, uh, with that other watch? Uh, Albert, you stay where you are. And oh, because I and you don't have to make go public and just say, Neil, I think you'll be better off going over there because of. So you can, you know, you don't have to enhance the conflict. You the leader should be able to make a suggestion if possible. How about Neil, you working over there, Albert working over there, uh, as one example. And that's that's happened. I wasn't uh the skipper of a boat, but the skipper, it was a 12-man, 12-crew boat, and the skipper realized there was a conflict many years ago, and he he put it a bit more bluntly than me, but basically he split up two people into two different watches. So most of the time they weren't but they weren't beside each other, they may have to talk to each other to uh to change over the watches through the night, but he did deflated, deflected that that situation.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting. That's good, that's great. Thank you for that, Adrian. So so let's do a few quick fire questions to finish with. Um Albert, you do one first and then I'll pick one and we'll do two or three.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, look, this has been really good for me because this is not an environment that I know very well. So you you guys obviously are a bit more comfortable with it. But from a role model perspective, who would you take as a role model to do what you do well?
SPEAKER_04:That is a very good question. Um strangely, Tom Cunliffe, who is a uh fellow yacht master uh uh ocean uh examiner instructor, he he he was quite a harsh uh instructor in his early days, but uh yeah, I I can still learn a lot from him, and he's such a calming influence because he he knows everything.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And so on a similar line, is there a book that you would recommend on leadership in sailing or boating that you would recommend to skippers to read?
SPEAKER_04:Unfortunately, I can't because I can't think of a book that says this is how you lead in this situation, this is how you lead in another situation. That's a very good question, and I might just have to write a book. Adrian, we should have a chat about that and let's see if we can do that.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's an opportunity for you there. Okay, go on. Um, let's think as our audience are um leaving this and they want to remember Adrian Thornton being on here. Either a quote that you've heard that you'd like to leave them with, or quote that you'd like to just contribute?
SPEAKER_04:Uh let's say, well, one quote I mentioned earlier: the art of leadership is delegation. I I've known I've had that for 30, 40 years. Um, then prepare or experience, prepare, delegate, and stay calm.
SPEAKER_03:That's brilliant. That's brilliant. So that's uh the four tips. There you go. There's four chapters of the book already.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask uh a bit of a fun question, but actually, there's a little seriousness to it as well. So, do you ever watch below deck on uh television? No, I don't, but go on. But so below deck is about uh super yacht crews, and uh so skippering super yachts, is there a difference in leadership when you're skipper in a super yacht and you've got a load of rich paying um you know guests on board and you're managing your deck crew and your interior crew? Do you think there's a a difference in leadership in that?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, there there is, because um you you could say that I'm the face, I'm the uh as a chief instructor of sort of sailing school, I'm the face uh rather than the administration. So you know uh I need I need to look pretty. I'm still working on that, uh, and all those things. But uh uh so I've got to instruct and make everybody safe. Uh a skipper of a a leader of a super yacht, they've got to look after their crew and then turn the PR sparkle to the people who are chartering the boat. Um, and I know quite a few uh delivery skippers and uh super yacht skippers. It's strange that I don't I don't bother watching below deck. Yeah, um yes, there are two slight different trains there that the leader is looking after the crew, his is his ship and his crew, but then they still have to be able to do the PR bit. But that in a sense, you could say that's not leadership, that's just PR.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so the leadership is the safety of the boat and the crew, and then there's a there's a face, as you say. I guess it's a bit like in business, you know, the CEO has to make sure the business runs, but he has to have a face to his customers as as well. Yeah. Um, okay, so uh Albert, was there any other questions you wanted to ask?
SPEAKER_02:No, I I think we've had a really good session. It was really interesting, and especially since this is not a world that I'm used to, other than Neil taking me sailing. Um, but it sounds like I've got a lot to learn before I could get to the next level. But from leadership lessons, again, there's a very close connection to the previous guests we've had from lots of different worlds, but there's also lots of uniques in here that hopefully are is valuable to your audience as well. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it should be, yeah. Yeah, uh Adrian, any final words from you? No, I I think that's good. It's just it's it is a shame. It's in the very good point. It's a shame. There isn't a book that you can read on leadership in sailing, that you've got to go out there and go through numerous hurdles up the chain and sideways to gain that leadership. It's uh some people are natural leaders, some people don't like it. Um, but sailing boat skippers must have must gain some leadership qualities somehow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's um something I've learned having been the crew, having been, you know, skipper and and been a leader in other parts of you know other business as well. Um, so look, thank Adrian, really, really appreciate your time today and in preparation for this. Lots of great stuff in there that I think our our normal audience will get, but also anyone in the sailing world will would benefit from uh listening to this as well. So great to see you. And I look I'll fingers crossed we get out on the water soon as well. Take care, cheers, Adrian.
SPEAKER_02:Good to meet you. All the best. Good luck. Thanks very much.
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