LEADERS - Dealing with bullying: with guest Carol Chidley (# 1-26)

Triggered by the Priti Patel situation, an ex-colleague of ours; Carol Chidley, reached out to us on social media and suggested that bullying may be a good topic for a Leadership Detectives discussion. 
So Neil invited Carol to come and join us for the episode to discuss bullying in the workplace, how it manifests itself, where is the line between tough leadership and bullying, and most importantly what do you do about it.
A great, albeit emotive, topic. Hope you get something out of the discussion. Please tell us!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

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SPEAKER_04 0:38

Do you remember that situation with Pretty Patel that erupted in the news a couple of weeks ago? Well an ex colleague of Neil's and mine from IBM, Cal Chidley, suggested that it might be a good topic for us to discuss here on the Leadership Detective. So Neil invited Carl to come and join us herself and discuss bullying in the workplace, how it might manifest itself, and most importantly, what to do about it. The discussion here could easily have gone on for much longer, but for a good 30-minute episode, please join us and see what you think. Having done so, please leave us your comments, share your own experiences, and please also offer any of your own advice that you want to to our listeners. Thanks for joining us. So here we are on oh gosh, 11th of December, a couple of weeks to go before Christmas, and enjoying everything that's happening here in the UK. Neil, good to see you. How are you?

SPEAKER_05 1:47

I'm fabulous, thanks, mate. I'm aching a little bit from hitting golf balls with you yesterday, but I'm feeling good. And I'm also delighted to be joined by a special guest today. So a special guest joining the leadership section is Carol Chidley, an old colleague of ours from IBM. Welcome, Carol. How are you today?

SPEAKER_03 2:06

I'm well, thank you. Enjoying the build up to Christmas. I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_05 2:10

So I've just I've got I've got to ask the first question I'm gonna ask you actually is not what I was planning, but I've got to ask you about the cow behind you.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Oh, so um my friend lives up in Scotland, and you can walk from her house through the estates um because you get free to roam up in Scotland. And we saw Highland cows, and I just love the fact that they're just so messy and just so solid and just yeah, enjoying life.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Um so and I was up to the honest. I noticed on Zoom during lockdown that most people's hair started to look like that during lockdown the first time when there were no barbers around.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yeah, and now getting very hair conscious, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:54

So this this is a really special uh conversation for us because you reached out to us after seeing something on online on LinkedIn, a story, and we'll go to that story in a minute, uh, and said, you know, this would be a really good topic for the the podcast or the Zoom cast. And and we we basically said, Well, why not come on and talk about it? So that's what we're gonna talk about. But just so the audience gets to know you a little bit. If you were a guest at your children's school or university or whatever, and you were being introduced onto stage to an audience of kids or students, how would you want to be introduced that would tell them about you?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Okay. Depend upon the age. Um, if it was the younger age, I'd say I'm probably a bit like Paddington, um, quite curious, um, very much wanting to uh respect people and also really enjoying getting to know people, and I do have that little element of mischievousness and playfulness about me.

SPEAKER_05 4:07

Yeah. Okay, fabulous. That's a great introduction. Okay. So why don't you tell us what made you kind of reach out to us and what what we're going to talk about today?

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Okay, so as you'll remember a few weeks back we had the um Pradi Patel in news incident. Um what it brought up for me was there was a number of things going on within that story. There was the reaction of her team who felt that she was bullying them, and then there was also the reaction of her boss, which is Boris Johnson, in terms of him standing by her. So it brought up that whole question for me about bullying. Um, was he doing the right thing by standing by her? Was he being a loyal leader? Um, and also was she bullying, um, or was it to do with how her team were feeling impacted by the way she was trying to do do things and drive change within her organization? So that's what it brought up for me, and that's why I thought as a leader, it's a brilliant topic to be curious about.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

There's there's an extra dynamic in that story though, as well, Carol, right? Because there was also a review or an investigation. Yes. And that threw up a report that went back to, as we call it here, her boss. Yes. So I guess we should consider that as well in that angle, right? Because I think the word you used is did her boss stand by her?

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Does that mean he disregarded the report?

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Oh, good question. Um, certainly the way that the report was presented in the press came across as she had been bullying. And then, in terms of the way that um Boris was presented, it was very much a case of um she'd read the report, heard what it had to say, and at the same time still said, No, I'm not asking her to resign. So, therefore, whether consciously or unconsciously, he was standing by that behavior.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

Interesting. Yeah. So, and I think it's probably worth at this point, just because this topic of bullying is, you know, we put a few posts out on social media and got mass reaction around this. So it's a very emotional topic, and and everyone's got an opinion on it, everyone's got judgment on it. Um, and I just I pulled up yesterday, so I'm just gonna read this. It's it's a short paragraph on the health and safety authority and how they define workplace bullying. So, just to give us a baseline to talk from. So, what it says is repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical, or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others at the workplace andor in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual's right to dignity at work. This is really interesting. An isolated incident of the behavior described in this diff definition may not may be an affront to dignity at work, but as a once-off incident is not considered to be bullying. So if it's only once, it's uh it's not considered bullying. If it's if it's ongoing, it's bullying. And so, with pretty protel, what what kind of what did you take out of what she did that constituted bullying when they went through that um uh analysis and they went through that review?

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Um so rather than just concentrating on that particular instant, to me, um what you've just referred to there is brilliant because it talks about the the repetition, and to me, that's what micro microaggressions are, they are that repetition and excuse me, I'm losing my voice today. Um and that combination that builds up on each day had basically bring a person into a stressed state of mind, yeah, and that's really important because if it's as you say, if it's one-off, then you can go, okay, that's out of character, it's not maybe something else is going on, it's an off day, we'll put it to one side. If it's a case of repeated, and what you're beginning to feel within yourself, if you're the person being bullied, is almost a heightened sense of anxiety whenever you're coming into contact, then that that to me is really dangerous. That's where we're getting into that really. Um it's not good for the leader and it's not good for the person receiving it because you no one's going to be productive in that environment.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

You know, you know the thing I struggle with in this stuff, because you're right, Carol, and if it's repeated and if it's happening all the time. But when I did some grievance training, um, one of the things they told us during that training was it has nothing to do with your intention, it's to do with the way it's received. Now I personally got a bit of a problem with that, because if I don't have any intention to offend, bully, attack you, and you feel that I did, that's seen as me failing, right? But I get that, and so that's for me to apologise and do what I should. But how do you feel about that? About receipt.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Okay, so for me, if the impact is disempowerment, um, and it's very difficult because if you're sat opposite someone and you ask them to do something, and you're doing that because you're getting asked to do something, and you don't necessarily have enough time to go, look, I appreciate it's above and beyond, da da da. And then, and you just pass that straight on, then that person will then go, uh. And if that's happening repeatedly, then that's really bad because of the fact that it is that heightened sense. And this to me is where, and actually, I think it was you, Albert, that pointed me to this. It's it's that whole piece of when you're a leader, the importance of knowing your team, even if that means you break some of the rules around what you think being a manager is all about, it's about making sure that when you're sat with the person, and I say sat, I mean nowadays it's across Zoom or whatever, but um, when you're with your team, do you know the human in front of you? Do you know what actually drives them and encourages them and brings out the best in them? Or are you making lots of assumptions?

SPEAKER_04 11:27

That's really interesting, Carol, because that leads me to think you could do or say something to an individual who could feel bullied, yes, but you could do or say the same something to someone else and they don't.

unknown 11:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 11:43

Okay, so that's an interesting one then. Um so how do you how does that play out then in determining whether someone is being bullied or not? Because that's that's about the how the person receives it. Then I suppose there's an expectation thing as well. You know, you know, my I was in the the military for 12 years. So in the military, and you're on parade in a parade ground, and you get out of step on the parade, you can expect that your sergeant major is gonna shout at you, call you a stupid little snivelling idiot, and to and tell you that you're useless and the put and pathetic and you need to sort yourself out. Um you kind of expect that. But you're undermining me.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

You're undermining me in front of my colleagues. I mean, that's not acceptable, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:39

Yeah, well, it it's part of the process, isn't it? Um so it's a really difficult topic, though, isn't it? So it's how does how's it received? And what what occurs to me is the and this was interesting article in the Sun about this topic. So you know, The Sun, one of the stand-up papers in the UK. Um, it says, Was pretty patel a bully, or is it just a word lazy gits use to dodge criticism? So I thought that was a really and it's a really interestingly argued article about her uh shouting and screaming at civil servants saying they were useless because they basically they weren't driving through the chain she needed. I mean, she did use the F-word by the look of it quite a lot. Um, so was that necessarily aggressive over aggressive? Um but that's an interesting one as well, isn't it? So I don't know what were your thoughts on that. Is it a word that lazy gets used to dodge criticism?

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Well, to me, it was it wasn't the lazy gits one because it was the useless, because that becomes quite personal, because rather than talking about the act as in you didn't do a good job on that, you're then actually making it very personal and much more about the who they are. And to me, if you're in a position, if you are looking around and you're looking at everyone around you and you're saying they're useless, they're useless, they're useless. Is that right? Maybe it's time to look in the mirror and actually go, what is it that is out of line here? Because I think everyone around me is useless. What is it that I need to change in myself so that I can interact better?

SPEAKER_05 14:39

And you know, actually, we talked about uh we've we've actually done a uh a podcast on a book called Extreme Ownership, and we talked about it on the interview we did last with Carmina Lees. Uh and it's in extreme ownership, basically what Jocko Willink talks about, who's an ex-Navy SEAL, is if something's not going right in your team, in your department, in your organization, it's down to you. It's not down to anyone else, it's down to you. Um, so I think that's an important. So, you know, when we were talking earlier about um, so how do you get a team to work better that isn't delivering? What one of the ways you do it is you look at yourself. You know, what are you not doing to not inspire or not instruct or not give people the information they need to stop being useless? If if you think they're useless, have they not got the skills, have they not got the right objectives or the right instructions? Um, or or maybe they're not the right people, and actually the best thing is go and put them somewhere where they could thrive.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

Yeah, and whatever those things were was probably your responsibility to have had in place, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Yeah, and the there's an organization called the Arvinger Institute. Um, I know about them because they wrote a book called Leadership and Self-Deception. Um, they've then brought out other books as well, but they bring out some really brilliant points about how, as a leader, you need to you need to basically think about the people around you, and that and through doing that, that'll bring about the right sorts of behaviours because you're no longer coming at it from a point of me, me, me. It's about going out, having an outward mindset, and through that you'll actually um have some really great relationships and interactions and actually bring about the best in everybody around you.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

So I guess there's the first leadership lesson in this is um it's kind of it's kind of linked to bullying, but it's more about you know, look at you first. If your team are feeling bullied, which I guess you might not be the first person to know that, but if if they feel you're being bullied, then or you're feeling so frustrated you start shouting at your team, look at yourself first. One of the things I was gonna bring up, so slightly just taking it a slightly different angle, because um one of the things I noticed in a corporate when I was in a corporate, but also in companies I work with, is the more senior you are, the more pressure comes on you. And actually, I think the more bullying goes on at a more senior level. Um, I don't know whether I mean Carol, what what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Um, it's a really difficult position to be in because you know there's a there's almost like an expectation that as you get more senior in the organization, the amount of things that you are committing to do and you are responsible for increase. Um and then there's also the aspect of should you actually be absorbing that? And then you filter out what goes down to the people around you so that you ensure that even though you may be getting a lot of pressure, you don't necessarily bring that into your team. What you actually do is recognize the strengths within your team and play to those and get them to help support you in the best way.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

I I'd I'd offer I'd offer that that should be irrelevant of your seniority. I'd offer that as a leader, it may be your responsibility to be a buffer and to absorb some of that. Um, but it's interesting that you say when you get more senior, is that part of the package then? Does the package actually say salary, bonus, stock options, regular bullying and harassment?

SPEAKER_05 18:42

No, I I'll give you I'll give you a real example. So um, you know, I worked for a business partner for a couple of years and they were bought by a venture capitalist. And the venture capitalist just wants to drive profit out of business. I was told monthly, as because I ran a division there, that if I didn't hit my number, I'd be sacked the next month. That's just but that that's because these guys are trying to live. And I've seen in shareholder meetings, shareholders are saying to chief execs, miss your quarterly number this quarter, we're gonna vote you out. So is that bullying or is that just being held to account for your role and your responsibility?

SPEAKER_04 19:20

Yeah, is that a condition of satisfaction for your job? A condition of satisfaction is you must achieve this, if not, you don't deserve that job anymore. Yeah, what do you think, Carol?

SPEAKER_03 19:29

It was interesting because I I mean when you relayed that story then, Neil, it took me back to me, about 20 years ago, when I actually had that whole thing of if you do not have this in place, um, it wasn't necessarily my job on the line, but there was the potential impact of what it could mean to the team around me. And I felt very personally responsible. So you're right, it's not just about where your level within the company, your seniority, um, I think it's about your personal responsibility and what how much of that you take on. However, the flip side of that is if you are attached to that job, to that lifestyle, whatever it is that comes with that, then when you get those threats, they actually become much more impactful. And that's where the stress, the fear, and everything else like that comes into it. And actually, that's where it then feels more like bullying. Because actually, if someone threatens you and you're like, fine, I can walk out of this job, I can go and get another one, then actually it doesn't feel like bullying. You may still do all the things that asking because you personally want to do a good job or you feel personally responsible, but you won't feel the same pressure unless you're attached to it.

SPEAKER_05 20:56

Yeah, I think that's certainly true. I mean, at that particular time in my life, I had two kids, three years old and one year old, and just a nude house, big mortgage, you know, all that kind of stuff. So there was a certain and a pressure to want to do a great job as well, and not and want to succeed. Um, but I I think everybody feels nobody wants to be threatened, yeah, uh, no matter what level you are. But at some people might not see it as a threat, they might just see it as pointing out your weaknesses or pointing out your failures in your role.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, and I think that that's really important in terms of where you as a person are, um, how confident you are, what sort of self-esteem you have, and from that, that then has a big impact in terms of how you receive what's being asked of you, and also the tone of what's being asked, because you know you can say the same question to someone and say, please can you do this, or you can say, please can you do this? So, even things that you'll be much more aware of the tone being used, you'll be much more aware of what's being asked of you, depending upon what expectations you you have and also what's going on around you.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Yeah. I think I think we shouldn't lose track of what Neil put up earlier on about the health and safety authorities definition, right? So, which could reasonably regarded as undermining the individual's right to dignity at work. You have to believe that if you're a leader, you must have personal perception of the effect you're having on an individual.

unknown 22:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Come on, you're a leader of people.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

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SPEAKER_04 22:58

If you can't recognize the effect you're having on somebody, then you need to go on some development. Or you need to be doing a different job. Maybe go join sales. Um it's really important that we recognize that. That if somebody says I didn't know I was having that effect, something needs to be done to make sure that next time you would know that you're having that effect. So either they need to indicate to you, right? Or you but but I just struggle with the fact that a leader doesn't have the perception. Look, we won't always spot it. You might just miss the signals, right? But if someone's crying in the corner, there's a reasonable chance they weren't comfortable with what you just said to them, right? Now it will be more subtle than that, you might not notice it. It comes back to this repeated thing. If it just happened as a one-off extra pressure on me this quarter, I'm getting some extra grief, and I lashed out. That's wrong, but I did. But if I lashed out monthly and weekly, that's that's beyond, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:56

But that brings up a really interesting point. So we we know about the Jihara's window of so everybody has things that they know about themselves and everybody else knows about them. There'll be things that are blind spots to them. So do they have the support around them so that when they if they aren't aware of the impact that they're having, even if the person themselves can't come directly to them, can other people come to them to say, Are you aware of what you're doing there? You know, you might want to rethink that. Do they have that sort of support either from the team, their peers, or even from the from their bosses to help make sure that they are aware of their impact?

SPEAKER_05 24:44

So I think there's there's definitely one of the thoughts going through my head actually is that uh yeah, some of the people leaders that I've worked in who you would put in the bullying category haven't got a clue they're doing it. There's no there's no self-perception there. They're just that those, they're just that kind of character where they just want everybody else to feel inferior, but they don't think of it as is bullying, or they would call themselves pace setters and everybody needs to keep up with me. Yeah, I just I'd just like to take this down a slightly different angle as well, just to bring in another element to this conversation. So if that's if that's okay, the the one of the things as a leader, because this is all about leadership clues. So if you uh have a let's say you have a manager within your organization who's accused of bullying by their employees, and you get HR to do an investigation or whatever the process process is, and then that gets presented to you as a leader. How how how do you think that should be handled?

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Um so there's a number of things that come up for the um for me for that. One I is I think it's very important to be seen to be acting on what's been fed back to you so that it's not there is a perception of this is not acceptable behaviour, even if it was unintended, we do not want our employees to feel stressed and fearful um when they come into the workplace. That isn't what we want. So, one, it's be seen to be acting on it. Secondly, there's a case of how can you support the individual or individuals who feel bullied? What is it that they need in place to help support them? And then thirdly, for the person who's been accused of the bullying, what is it that they need? Is it a because for me, if it's a case of they've been unintended impact, is it a case of actually it's to do with their style and the match of their style with the team that they're working with? Because you can have mismatches. Um, so it's all of those different things, and then you may not be able to solve it overnight. But what I think is really important is that you'll seem to be receptive to what's been shared with you, you'll seem to be acting on it, even if you can't necessarily fix it straight away. You've got an action plan in place which you are communicating with everybody around you to say this is what we're doing about it.

SPEAKER_05 27:33

So I like those three categories actually. That's a really good uh way of describing it. And so if you there's a couple of things come up with that in my mind. So if if you don't act on it, firstly, it says it's okay. Yes, secondly, it says the HR process is being undermined because what's the point in doing and it bringing an independent person in to look at it if you and thirdly, if someone's got a grievance or feels bullied in the future, and maybe in another team or something, they're not gonna bring it up because they know nothing's gonna happen. Yeah, so that's a and and in this particular situation, I think all of those things happened, you know, that wasn't acted on. We actually did a zoom cast about Boris Johnson, uh, comparing him to Donald Trump. Uh, and one of the things he was poor at, in uh, in our view, when we did the comparison was strong leadership in in terms of the way he managed people. You know, we saw it with Dominic Cummings, and we're seeing it, you know, we see it with this particular situation. It or from what we can see in the press and everything, you know, we don't know the exact facts, yeah. So I think that's a really good point about acting on what's being fed back. Um, Albert, gone. I'll let you just we're moving on to point two.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

No, yeah, because it because the the the other point that Carol made was about is it the right person in the right role? And just let's just make an example, right? Maybe the way that you would, and and guys, whether you're in sales or delivery, I apologise, right? It's just an example. Maybe the way you would speak to salespeople, you could do in a certain way because they are driven by certain styles that you couldn't speak to somebody in an administrative setting or in a call center setting or in uh whatever, right? Uh a different style. So I think I think that's right. Now, does that mean only certain people can do certain jobs? Yeah, there's nothing to matter with that. There's nothing matter with that. To say, you know, if you're a really good sales manager, maybe you'd never be a good administrative manager. That's okay. What's the matter with that? Um, just because I'm a good footballer doesn't mean I'll be a great golfer, right? So I think it's fair to say maybe we have got square pegs in round holes and it's coming out in the way that they're acting because the audience they're working with, which is their team, it doesn't work for them. So we should recognize that. But that has to be the boss's job. Yeah, that has to be the person's job. And there is a responsibility back on the person being bullied to speak up. I know it's difficult. But to our audience here, guys, you know, we're going to try and get that out as we go through this. And I know we know we're using a lot of time here, but we need to give you some tips on what do you do. If you find yourself in this situation, what do you do? So we'll try and wrap that up before we go.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:13

But I think you've got a responsibility as an individual. Because if that person doesn't know they're having that effect, if you don't tell them, like Neil says, they'll keep doing it. It's approved. It's approved. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

And I think building on what you've just said there, Albert, there's the context as well. Because if you've come in and your job is to bring about change, and you've got to bring about change which needs to happen quickly and it's not going to be well received, then you may get perceived as bullying and driving this change, even though it's going to happen anyway. So there's that whole thing of are you open to listening to the people around you so that they can try and help bring about that change? Or if we believe what was put in the press in terms of Patel, it was very much a case of being undermined. There was a number of incidents where she was being undermined because it and the way that it's presented is it was a case of the team weren't ready for that sort of change.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Yeah, I didn't actually pick it up, and maybe we know here, right? But I understand she walked out of her office and said, You are effing useless. Now, did she say that to an individual, or did she make that as a statement to her department? Right? It doesn't make it any better that she said that you were effing useless, but it does make a difference as to whether I said, Carol, you, while everybody else is watching, are this, or team, this is what you're doing, right? Do we know? Was that a general address? Or don't know.

SPEAKER_05 31:52

I don't think I don't even know.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Um, do we think there's a difference there?

SPEAKER_03 31:56

So to me, there's a number of differences. One, if it's personal, and personally, I don't like the phrase telling someone they're useless. I think you tell you talk about the act, not the person. Um if you are going to use the word useless, then it's very much a case of it should be done in a closed office. I think calling someone out in a public environment like that is completely wrong. And then there's then the fact of sort of what we touched on earlier, if you're calling the whole team useless, then again, look in the mirror because something's wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Okay, that's a good point. That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

So yeah, and I I think this interesting. So, so you're as a boss, you've got a manager that's bullying, and you've done a report and he's come back to you. So the act should there are a number of actions you could take. You could sack the manager, you know, if it's really bad and or whatever the context is. Uh, you could move into another role if they're a good person, but just not good in that role. Um, but I guess there's a there's also a place where you could try and make this work. So you could get the leader and the team together and go, let's work out how we can make this work. It's like a marriage counseling session, you know, how could we make this work together? Do you want to make it work together? Yeah, do you want to take this forward together? And and then what type of training, coaching, mentoring do you need going forward to support you in keeping that going?

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

I guess that's a that would be my approach. I kind of like to have a collaborative approach whenever I have anything like this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

I think the important thing though is are all parties involved open to working at it?

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Because if that's not in place, if people aren't open to being collaborative, then it's not gonna it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

No, and that that that's got to be down to the the second line, third line, or whatever it is to create that safe environment, yeah, so that the the team feel comfortable being able to say what they need to say, and the boss feeling comfortable that they feel they, you know, the manager, whoever is involved, being comfortable. So no, it's a really interesting uh topic. So are there any what when we started this conversation, Carol, were there any things that you really wanted to get out that we haven't got out through some of the questions we've been asking?

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Um, I think we've touched on a lot of the things. So it's about is what you're saying perceived as constructive or disruptive? Um, what language are you using? Because let's be honest, the language you use defines a lot of behaviour and also how it's perceived. Um, is it happening repeatedly? And then are you as a leader seeing the people in front of you? Now that's all very much a case of focusing on the leader, looking at the other side of it as the person who may be feeling bullied. If you're in a position where you've got the impact of feeling disempowered, or you've got shame or fear because you've got an attachment and you are worried about the potential loss of job or prestige or whatever it may be, if you're in a position, because let me just take a step back. If you're feeling shame or fear, then that's very much an internal process. So therefore, it's really important to recognize the fact that other people around you may not necessarily be feeling that same thing. So are you in a position where you can take a step back, recognize what's going on, and then actually reconnect to the power that you have within yourself. Now, in that particular situation, you may not be able to. If you are in a position to act on it, please do. It's really important that if you are feel that you are being bullied or you feel that you're being triggered in any way, share that with your manager, leader, or with your peers so that it can be acted on. If you're not able to in that particular circumstance, what things do you need to put in place so that doesn't happen again? So that that way you're learning from it and you're then in the position of trying to help put the boundaries in place so that you won't feel have that feeling of being bullied in the future. Those are the main things I wanted to get out of.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

I think the key thing that in all the stuff that you said there and there's some great advice there, Carol. And I'm sure for some people this would be quite overwhelming, right? But I think the key thing is doing nothing isn't the answer, right? So you've got to do something, and the minimum you've got to do is you've got to talk to someone. Now, great to talk to the person who you feel is bullying you, but if you really feel you cannot face that, you've got to talk to somebody else. Now, that could be a peer, that could be HR, that could be your partner, but your partner's not gonna help fix it at work, right? So you've got to take action if you want it to change. If you want it to change, right? Um and that's probably the best piece of advice we can give to somebody here is you've just got to talk to somebody and share that with someone to get a view and to make sure someone else knows it's happening. They might they might put a spin on it that makes you see it differently, by the way. I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it approves what's been happening, but you might be seeing something strangely, right? Or they might go, you're dead right. Guess what? That person does it to me as well, right? Yeah, and then you can feel you've got an ally in your cause as well, right? Not you're now going to hang someone, but you now don't feel it's just you, right? Yes. So the key thing is talk to someone.

SPEAKER_05 38:03

Yeah, it's a it's such a big topic, this actually, and we could probably go on for another hour easily talking about it. Um, and so let's let's kind of wrap up, shall we, with a few quick fire.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

Can I just come back and ask one quick question? Yeah, come on. Carol was pretty patel bullying anyone. Oh in your opinion, was she a bully? In your opinion. For this call, by the way, guys, is Carol's opinion, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Okay. By calling people as opposed to the act, useless, then yes. Okay, because it makes it personal.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

And anyone listening that doesn't agree with that, that's your opinion, right? That's our opinion, and that's that's how sensitive this topic is.

SPEAKER_05 38:56

And by the way, we've seen some bullying on social media about around this topic because someone didn't agree with someone. Yeah, so you do have to be really you'd have to check yourself before you start looking at other people as well.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:11

Um, you're right now. Let's do some quick fire. Yeah, let's do a couple of quick fire. Um, no, you shoot, you shoot. Okay, so uh you've actually mentioned a book already, Carol, Leadership and Self-Deception. But if you were gonna recommend a book to leaders that are listening to this uh Zoom cast, what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_03 39:35

My other favourite book is The Four Agreements.

SPEAKER_05 39:39

Four Agreements?

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 39:41

Okay, who's that by?

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Uh Don Miguel Ruiz, I think. Um, and it's split into two parts. Um, a lot of people may struggle with the first part, so don't you it's not obligatory to read that, but definitely take the time to read all about the four agreements. Um the things that really come out for me is don't take things personally, don't make assumptions, and be impeccable with your word and such. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:07

Right, okay, I've not heard of that, so I'll have a look at that.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

So so if we're looking at this whole thing about bullying, this I'm sure you've seen situations where it's happened, situations where it hasn't. Have you got a role model that you would want to identify here as someone who would handle this stuff well?

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Rephrase the repeat the question, please, Albert.

SPEAKER_04 40:31

Have you got a role model in leadership that you would identify as managing well their behaviour and not being bullying or managing a bullying situation?

SPEAKER_03 40:43

This is gonna sound a bit zick and panty. Um, but when we were working together, I always felt that you embodied that. You were always very receptive to feedback, um, and it was very much a case of listening to what was going on for the individual. And you'd I remember being on the call with you, and you went, Carol, just tell me about that, because I was relaying my personal opinion, and you were like, No, I want to know more about that. Um, whereas that could have easily just been bruside. Um, so that to me was really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:21

Okay, appreciate that. Thank you. Now, okay, what would be one major must do and one major must-not do for leaders when it comes to this topic of bullying?

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Um one major must-do is build your self-awareness. Because the more you build your self-awareness, the more you become aware of how you are, and also more about your impact in intended and unintended. Um the major must must not do for me, I think is if you're feeling a lot of pressure, take the time to take a step back so that you don't share that onwards and outwards to your team, and also recognize if it's happening repeatedly, because actually, if it's happening repeatedly, there's something out of KillTech.

SPEAKER_05 42:29

Okay, brilliant. Thanks for that. So let's have one more, Albert, shall we?

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Um what about a quote? Do you think there's a quote anywhere around this topic that would stick in someone's head that would help them? Have you got a quote from anywhere?

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Not off the top of my head. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Okay, if it's just there was something there, then then that would have been good. But I think one of the things I would put as the one liner is guys, don't do nothing but talk to someone. All right, that's probably the best way to um should we kind of wrap up there? Yeah, yeah. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna take Neil stage this time, guys. So please thank you very much for joining us, guys. Uh, before we thank Carol overall, let me just say, guys, please give us your comments, give us your feedback. This is a very emotional topic, but we'd love to hear what you think as well. So give us your comments, give us your likes, give us your ratings on the podcast. And if you're not subscribed already, then please hit the button down there and subscribe. Neil and I got some more work planned for the next few days. 11th of December now. We've got some planned over the the rest of December and into the new year. So if you've subscribed, then obviously you'll get notification of that. So thank you very much for joining us, Neil. I'll leave you to close with Carol.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Okay, Carol, I'll let you let you have any closing words you'd like to make.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Um a huge thank you. Um, because it was absolutely brilliant in terms of being able to share with you that something that made me feel really passionate, and also, Neil, you making me act on it as well. So thank you for actually making me do that. Um, and it's just brilliant to get the opportunity to work with you both again. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

No, thanks, Karen. Thank you for joining us, and thanks for bringing this topic up because it's a great topic, and you know, and really, really appreciate you spending the time on this. And uh, just a message out to everybody anybody's got a topic they want us to talk about, let's get you on the let's get you on the podcast, the zoom cast to talk to chat about it because these are all really useful. And if one person takes away a little something and changes it and makes them a better leader, then that's great by us.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

So Carol, you've still got a young family with you there, so have a fantastic Christmas. Enjoy the days that are coming up, and uh, thank you again for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

Just talking about Chris, just one last thought, actually. I was I had a picture in my head as you were talking about bullying, and I had this picture of elves in a factory with Father Christmas standing there shouting at them that they're useless. Um, but I'll I'll leave that with you as we now close. But great to see you all. Cheers, take care.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

Thank you all. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

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