Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
LEADERS Managing THEIR OWN CAREER (# 1-23)
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The first in a two-part piece on Managing Careers.
This episode is specifically about Leaders managing their own careers. Some tips on what to do, how to do, when to do and clarity about who owns your career.
Enjoy and good luck managing your career and climbing that ladder!
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SPEAKER_03Today, we've got the first part of a different part that we're doing around career. So we've got you managing your own career as a leader. And subsequently, we're gonna do how you as a leader manage the careers of your leader. So today it's about you. Feel free to dip in and out as you go through this. You might want to uh to pick up the tip as you go through. Better still if you listen from uh beginning right through to the end, and when you get to the end, we've got a special offer for you again, as we did last time, for anybody that wants to take us up or being able to work with us to help develop and uh progress your own career. I'd be really happy to do that. The other thing I'd ask while I'm here, guys, is please can you subscribe to the podcast or to YouTube, whichever you prefer, or maybe post. Um please give us any like or give us any ratings to some of the podcast alive. So we know we're hitting the mark and we know we're uh we're giving you. Thank you for those that have given us five-star ratings on some of the podcast that's gone before. That really helps to give us a feedback. So enjoy. Hope you get something from this, and good luck with your career. Talk to you soon. Anyway, so how are you doing today? I'm good, I'm good, I'm not bad. It's been a busy week, actually. Having a few things going on, a bit of work, a bit of personal. Uh but yeah, it's been a busy week, actually. And then what have you been doing? Well, I've got some stuff going on, obviously, as you know, I'm working with with our old company, so I've got some stuff with IBM, yeah. Um yeah, and then we've got a lot of stuff going on at home and on the personal front as well. And then we're juggling all the wonderful world we're living in right now, right? Which is which is fun in itself. I know, yeah. Week three of lockdown, is it? Yeah, it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, and I'm sorry I was a bit late uh dialing in uh or setting this up this morning. Um my Saturdays are my cheat day on my uh my four-hour body diet. And um, and I just got back from a run at half ten and we start recording at 11. And I really wanted to have a big breakfast this morning because that's my treat on treat on cheat day.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So that was uh what you must do. I'll ask you more later about what's allowed in that breakfast, but I'm sure it's no no anything you like.
SPEAKER_02Cheat day, you can have anything you like. Um so it's the day I have beer, it's the day I have crisps, um, you know, just um you can do what you like on cheat day. You'll be out running tomorrow morning. Oh, yeah, and I'll I'll run each day. I mean, I ran you know good run this morning as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, so back to the um uh the discussion today. So we were talking yesterday about do we do do something around career? Because we we both had conversations with people we're coaching this week around career, um, whether it's their career or their people's career, you know, leading um their people's career. So I think we thought that was a good topic to chat through. I know what are you? Do you think that would be useful for people listening?
SPEAKER_03I think it would. I mean, I think we've touched on it in our own dealings with the companies we're dealing with, the people we're dealing with, and we always get to that thing of people asking advice around how they can manage their career and and often coming back to how we managed ours. But that isn't normally the the you know the magic, the magic formula. It's different for different people. But what's clear is I think people don't always think about it and they let themselves run from year to year to year. So maybe it's worth kind of and some are really extreme about having a plan. So I think it's worth discussing what what are the options? How can you so what should we do?
SPEAKER_02Should we talk about leaders managing their own careers or shall we talk about leaders managing their people's careers? Which one should we do today?
SPEAKER_03I think we should start with the leaders themselves. I think we should start with the leaders themselves that have a career or want a career and how they're managing that, and come back separately and talk about them leading and managing their people.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, I think that's probably probably get more click-throughs as well because leaders tend to be more interested in themselves than their people anyway. Anyway, so and it's an interesting, you said something there, it's really interesting. I think it's worth exploring up front. You said if they want a career, yeah. Uh I think that's a really, really interesting place to start because I find when I'm talking to people, um, they feel like they should be pursuing a career path, you know, doing one thing, then the next thing, then the next thing, then the next thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh I'm not sure where that comes from, apart from you know, the whole historic way we go through school and we progress through certain exams and the next exams, then we go to college if we do, or um, so I don't know whether it comes from that or whether it even goes back to things like the military, where you have a structured career. Um, but what do you what do you think? Do you think you do you see it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's partly that. I think also it comes also from the fact that senior leaders are encouraged to have succession plans. And by having succession plans, they start talking to their people about what they want to do next, and so they start feeling that they have to do something next when they're quite happy doing what they're doing.
SPEAKER_02So I'm just gonna I'm just gonna pause you there for a sec, right? So you just made a massive assumption about senior leaders having succession plans, so it's really funny, right? So Wednesday morning this week, I was having a conversation with a multi-billion dollar company and one of their division heads, yeah. So, you know, not a not a junior guy, so at the a global level. And I and I said, So, what's your strategy around succession planning and you know, planning for your people below you and when one of them goes, who's next? Uh, and what happened with you as well, which one of your leaders would pick up if you got you know, what's the plan for? And he looked at me blank. What what do you what's what do you mean succession plan? And literally, they it had never crossed their mind or been discussed. So so that's a big, big assumption there, by the way by the way.
SPEAKER_03I think and I think also if we're gonna talk about a succession plan, is is a why. Why do you have a succession plan, right? And and for me, if I take my own way that I used to work, there's two sides to that. One of them is so the business can continue if somebody might decide the change without me, right? What am I gonna do? But also, I used to feel that I had a duty as a leader towards my employees to help them if they want to progress. But that if comes right back again, if they want to progress. If you said to me, I want to stay in this job forever, fine, but you need to be productive forever, you can't become stale.
SPEAKER_02So let's come back to succession planning when we come back to talking about leaders and how they manage their people, I think. Because that it sounds like that's going to be a really important topic. Yeah, yeah. Um, but in terms of managing, so so I guess what we're saying is the first thing you've got to decide as an individual, as a leader, is do you want a career? Do you and what does that mean? I mean, obviously, everyone has a career. That's that's that's a really stupid statement. Do you want a career? Everybody's in a job that that is a career, yeah. Um, but do you want to progress? Do you want to have a career path, a progression through that, which is either it could be sideways into more technical, more specialist careers, or it could be up into more senior positions? But that's a really important thing to decide is do you want a career path? And which way do you see that going?
SPEAKER_03As we always talk about, Neil, we come back to the why, right? Why would you want a career? Yeah, is it about job advancement? Is it about job enrichment? Is it about earning more money? Is it about getting more stripes on your on your um so your ego? Is it about your ego? Is it about keeping up with your mates? You know, just so that you need to think about why, what from where you are today, what do you want to see in the future and why? What is the drive for that?
SPEAKER_02And actually, that comes back to what what I think is going to be our first point on the how. But if you haven't got the why and you're not really clear on why you're doing this for you rather than someone else driving your career, then uh the chances are you're gonna be disappointed. Yeah. Because if you don't know where you're going, you know, if your boss phones you up tomorrow and said, uh, can I just ask you about your career path and where you'd like to go in your career, or you've got a chance to talk to the managing director of the business or the owner of the business, like just share with me what your vision is for where you want to be in five years' time. And if you don't know, that's not a great conversation to have.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or if you even if you don't know crystal clear, if you'd kind of go, do you know? I think where I see myself is doing this or following this type of path, you know, where I would like to develop my skills is in this area. Yeah, you you've got to have you're right, you've got to have a clear um view of where you want to go and why is that important to you.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I I also would suggest that if you're not thinking on planning around that, that would lead me to wonder how you conduct yourself in your professional role. Because your job should be looking at how I'm delivering today, how I'll deliver in the future. What value am I adding today? What value will I add in the future? So if you can't keep looking at those dimensions for the job you do every day, sorry, for your career, do you do it for the job you do every day? So I think maybe that's being unfair of me using that same measure, but sure, and and I think it's something that sometimes you need to shake people because they're very happy doing a job, it's paying them the way it needs to pay them, they know everybody around them, everything works. Why do I want to disrupt anything? Right, but everything's not going to stay the same forever.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's that's a fair point, and so I guess there's a but there's a blend here between developing your skills and the value you add in your job and developing your career. Sure. Because you know, not you know, I've had this conversation probably hundreds of times over the last 30 years with people who say, Look, I really don't want to be a manager, or I really don't want to progress to the next technical level. I'm really happy where I am. So when we're doing the career development piece with them, you know, the career development piece is develop skills in this area, expose them to some something new just outside their comfort zone. Um, so that's developing their skills and their experience. You know, so I guess the first thing is it's okay to say, actually, I'm really happy here. I'm really happy at this level, but but make a conscious decision of that, so that if you are asked, how where do you see yourself in five years? So I say, see, I see myself here doing the job even better than I'm doing it today.
SPEAKER_03Well, we're gonna talk career, right? But but even if somebody said, I want to stay here, surely there's a conversation about development of you and your skills and your knowledge and your value still staying in the same job, correct? Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02So because the bar's going up every year, as you said, right? So it never nothing ever stands still as a bar's can you so you've got to develop yourself. That doesn't mean you've got to be going for the next level, the next promotion, the next whatever. So so let's come back to um career. So you so we've what we've said is you've got to be really clear where you're going and why you want to go there. Um so what advice, what would be the fur the best bit of advice you could give someone if someone came to you and said, Albert, can you give me some advice on how I should be managing my career?
SPEAKER_03I would say two things. One, look at what you know about what the future could be for you, and um, you know, is that career steps? Is that a new job? Is that whatever, whatever, whatever? And have yourself a three to five year plan, right? That would be my first piece of advice. Put down on paper a three to five year plan. I see myself going from here to potentially that or that, and also try and give yourself some options, right? Because I'm not only one. But the second piece of advice is stay flexible and ready for the fact that the plan doesn't happen the way you thought, right? Because I can tell you when I had a plan, it never went to the plan. Well, it probably did, maybe once or twice. But in the main, you have to be ready because either something might come to you that you weren't expecting, or one of the targets that you might have had might disappear. So the job you thought was your best next job might not be there. So have a plan, yeah, stay flexible.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I funny enough, I wrote down the two same two things actually this morning and exactly the same. And but I uh what I did do was kind of separate them into early career, later career. Okay, and and what I mean by that, I think in in the early career, if you're too rigid with I'm gonna do this job, then this job, then this job, then this job, as you said, you might be disappointed. Yeah, because when you get into a role and your senior leadership see what you're doing, they might say, actually, you know, Neil would be really good here, yeah. And actually you would be really good there, and that you'd really enjoy that. So you to be flexible, knowing you want progress, but not not being too rigid about the direction, yep. Um, and also trying lots of things is fun, you know, doing lots of different jobs is fun. Uh and then I think when you're a bit older and more senior, I think that's where you probably have to be a little bit more because the job ops opportunities get narrower, don't they? Let's face it. Yeah, the higher you get on in the triangle, the fewer jobs you then I think you have to be a little more specific and more focused on what do I need to do to get that job.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That makes sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and be clear why it is you want that job, right? It look, if it is purely for progression and ego and stripes, nobody's saying that's not valid. That is valid, right? But just make sure you don't end up in a job that you realize isn't what you really wanted, because what comes with those stripes sometimes is not maybe what you enjoy in your life or your career development. So you you've got to be clear, you know. Remember the old phrase, careful what you wish for, right? Yeah, it might not be what you thought it would be when you get there. So try and be clear about what you think you're gonna get from it and what you can give to it.
SPEAKER_02So the really important thing, we've used the word I a lot in this, or or you, you know, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do the other. And the first thing I wrote down, and the the piece of advice I give people whenever I'm talking to them, is you need to own it. There's one person that owns your career, and that's you. It's not your boss, although it's this week I've spoken to three people probably about career, and none of them were owning it. It was all about um I need to ask my manager what my next career step is. No, you need to be clear on what you want and go and say to your manager, this is my this is where I see my next career step, this is what I'd like to do next. Do you support that? And will you help me develop into that?
SPEAKER_03How well how well do you feel you did that through your corporate career?
SPEAKER_02Um so early on in my career, uh, you know, when I was in my early, early 20s, I mean, I was a manager at 22. I was one of you know, like like you, we were both very young managers. Um I was I was absolutely black and white clear on where I wanted to be and I was driving it. Yeah, you know, uh, no question. I went to, you know, my manager knew what I wanted. He and and this was really a really important bit of advice, right? If your boss doesn't know what you want, then when opportunities come up, he doesn't know where he can slot you in, he doesn't think of you in the so or she, he or she. Um so I was really clear. So when opportunities came up for promotion boards or um or assessment boards or whatever, you know, I was always top of the list because I'd made it clear that's what I wanted. Yeah, later on in my career, as you get narrow to the top, it became less obvious and it became harder to drive and manage that. Um uh so yeah, so that I guess that's the answer. Early on, very clear, very specific, later on, a little harder to drive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. What about you? And and and I'm the same, I'd I'd endorse what you've said, Neil, about making sure the people around you, and I'd probably expand it a little bit, the people around you who can make a difference know. So your boss is one, and other senior people that could also be your sponsors and might want to come and poach you, need to know what you're about and what you're thinking about for the future. And it's an interesting thing, right, about whether your boss wants to help you move somewhere else, right? Because they might lose a good car, a good guy, but or good gal, but maybe that's okay, that's the right thing to do, right? So making sure your boss knows is absolutely key, guys. That's an open conversation that can be a formal part of your review process, but it could be a coffee conversation, just make sure it's known.
SPEAKER_02Well, and if it's once a year that you talk about it, then it isn't gonna happen. No, so you know, you need to if your boss isn't putting quarterly, either monthly, development conversations in the calendar with you, make sure you are you are 15, 20, 30 minutes. It doesn't have to be long, it just has and so this kind of links leads on to my second point was it if you're clear on what you want to do next and how you want to develop, is make sure you're proactive about it. So be proactive with your boss, but be proactive in exposing yourself to the skills and the experiences that are gonna make you the obvious person for that job in the future. Yeah, yeah, again, you know, it it could be if you want to be in sales as the next career move, for instance, make sure you're exposing yourself to sales, make sure you're getting involved in that type of engagement. If you want to be in management, make sure you're learning about leadership, developing those skills, developing the management skills.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And I and I think I'm not sorry guys, keep referring back to us, but we can reflect on our own experience and hopefully that adds value for you. But Neil, how often did you go looking for the next job, and how often did you get tapped on the shoulder?
SPEAKER_02It's a good question, and um, I think in the end, uh all of them were probably taps on the shoulder, but there was conversation certainly about you know, when when this comes up, this I'd really like to do this. So in in the end, they were probably the because I was clear about what I wanted, yeah, then the tap on the shoulder was linked to that. But the timing wasn't necessarily my timing, yeah, in a lot of them. Yeah, normally on my timing would have been much sooner.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, and that's interesting, right? Because I think even from my own experience, I don't think I ever applied for a new job. I always had somebody come to me and say, This opportunity's coming along, we'd like you to move into it, or we'd like you to consider it. And when they say we'd like you to, it was probably decided that you would anyway, right? Um, but that's good because it comes back exactly what Neil and I said earlier. Make people know what your aspirations are and what your desires are, and then you fit neatly into the slot when that opportunity opens up, right? So you've got to keep that communication, but be ready, come back to the be the flexible, right? Like you said, it was never your timing, was it? No, it wasn't at the point at which you wanted to move.
SPEAKER_02Not yes, and normally it was it was later than I'd wanted to, so I was ready, yeah. But sometimes it was, but you know, and when I'm what I find interesting when I'm coaching people, and uh especially around career and next steps and stuff like that, is firstly they don't take ownership of it, they're waiting for someone to come and talk to them because they're not clear, and I think that's something that needs to be sorted out. And the other thing I and this is someone told me this when I was very young, and I've never forgotten it, I can't remember who it was, but they said the best way of being considered for the next promotion or the best way of developing your career path is do a great job at what you're doing, yep. Over excel, be the best at what you're doing, and that is so true and still true today. If all you're doing is looking forward and you're not focusing on now, then you're missing out. Uh well, you're not gonna be considered.
SPEAKER_03I've had that very conversation with um my nephew and probably even my son, um, very recently. Oh, right. Okay, just be a superstar at what you do, and you become an obvious candidate, and you become a sought-after resource, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a balance, I think, though. So you've got to be careful about being a superstar at what you're doing so that they can't afford to let you go. That that can be a bit of a double-edged sword. So you've got to be a superstar at what you're doing, but be a pain in the ass with your boss about your next job. Because then that gives him the problem, not you the problem. Exactly. Exactly. Um, there's something else I wrote down because this came up this week, and I just thought it'd be worth sharing this as well. I've I've called it be careful of shiny distractions. Okay. And what I mean by that is um in some industries, it's not the same across all industries, is sometimes you're offered things because people think it's the right thing to develop you. And it might be a certification in a certain qualification, like a uh a finance, a CFA, you know, something for the accountancy business, or it might be something around um marketing, or it might be an MBA or something, and all those things are great so long as you're really, really clear on why you're going to invest all that time and effort in doing that. In does it support your career, or is it a tangent and a distraction to your career? And I've seen people who've done MBAs, have invested years in MBAs, and it's held their career back because they haven't been doing their current job as well as they could have done, and then they come off their MBA and they're not the immediate obvious person for the next promotion.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um very quick story on a similar theme, right? I got tapped on the shoulder for a job that somebody said, You are absolutely the right guy to do this job. Um, it was a uh an upgrade in my job, but there was no promise that it was going to be automatic promotion. But that would come in the future if I do all the right things, right? So, anyway, I kind of got encouraged into this role and I took it. And from the day one, I didn't feel right, but we took the job and I went with it week after week. But you know what? After about three or four weeks, it's an absolutely true story. I was waking up at 3:30, four o'clock in the morning thinking, I don't, I don't, I don't get it, I don't really want to do it, I don't enjoy it, it doesn't feel right. And this went on for about two weeks. And one day, um, my missus sat up at three o'clock in the morning and went, What? And I said, I don't know, I just don't think this is right. And she went, I know, you've been doing this for two weeks. She said, What would you say to one of your employees that was in this situation? I would say, take control of it and either deal with it or live with it. And she goes, Right, make that decision, then go to sleep. And I woke up in the morning, I woke up in the morning and I phoned my boss and I said, I'm coming in to see you because I can't do this job anymore. And he said, Why not? And I said, I'll come in and see you, we'll talk it through. And I went and I said, It's not the right job. And I took it for the wrong reasons. The person who gave me the job made me promises, and they moved two weeks after they gave me that job, right? They weren't around to give me the promotion they promised, etc. etc. But there's a lot to be said for gut feel, right? I knew that was wrong to start with, and I took it because of a shiny distraction of a promised promotion, promised stripes, all those things that were not real.
SPEAKER_02So here's a bit of advice I'd give to anyone listening about the promise of future levels or promise of future promotions. Two things, and and I've personally experienced this, and I've also advised, and I've uh people I've coached, I've advised them on it, and they're not taking my advice, and it's cost them. So, first thing is remember in any job discussion, career discussion, it's a two-way street, right? Your boss or the person offering you the next job needs you because they need good people as much as you want to do it. So, when they are offering you a job, you are in one of the strongest negotiating positions you will be in in the next three years of that job. So make sure you leverage that position. And you know, someone you and I know well took a job on the promise of a level, yeah, a big job, didn't, and it never ever came. And at the time, if he'd asked for it when he was offered the job and said, I will take the job, I really want to do it, but I need to have the next promotion, the next level, he would have got it there and then because they needed to fill that slot with the right person, yeah. So that's really, really important. You're in such a strong position when you're offered a job. I don't know whether you've experienced that.
SPEAKER_03I think you're right. People don't please don't underestimate the currency that you are. You are a currency, and like Neil says, it's a two-way discussion, it's a two-way discussion, it's not an offer, and if not you, then someone else. Fine. In that case, they don't get you, right? And you are a quality piece of work that people want, right? So don't ever undervalue yourself. I've been talking with colleagues recently who have found themselves in situations they'd rather not been in with redundancy threats, etc. etc., and have done the right things and I've come off better off than they were, than they ever thought they would be, because they realize they value and they played it correctly, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I and I get it by the way, I've been there. I it it it feels exciting when someone is offering you a bigger job, you feel really good about it, but you've you do have to take that deep breath in and go, I want to make sure that I get the value out of this as well. Because if I'm being um, if I if I want this job and they want me, then we both need to feel comfortable that we're going into this together. And by the way, there are promotion probation periods. That's okay. Yeah, you know, there are probation periods in jobs, and but a probation period should come in a written format, not in a promise over a telephone call or a handshake. Yeah, a probation period is in six months' times. If you deliver this, this, this, and this, then you'll get your promotion.
SPEAKER_03Just something else while we're talking about this stuff, guys. What the way Neil and I are talking here is very much about promotion from within. That's really what we're talking about in the main, right? There's a whole different aspect about leaving your company and going to a different company, et cetera, et cetera. So a lot of what we're talking about is kind of promotion within. I did a little bit of research this morning around this, right? And there was a Forbes study that was talking about promote from within or hire external. And what the study showed was it's always more successful to take somebody from within.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because somebody knew was got to get up to speed, they got to learn the company, they lost their network that they had, you know. So it's always been beneficial. What they showed was in the study, they probably paid 18 to 20 percent more if they got somebody in from outside. So that's something to think about, guys. If you're chasing money, then maybe go move. I'm not saying saying you should, but if you're chasing money, that's probably where you more lucrative. But the other thing the study showed was 61% of the people that came in from outside were normally didn't hang around. And you and I have got personal experience of that, Nella bringing people in and they just didn't survive, right? So this is very much geared around promoting from win. Maybe it's a different topic if we're talking about moving to a different company.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what? I think the the A lot of the advice is the same though, and maybe even slightly more on the ownership, proactiveness. You know, because a lot of the companies I work with, promotion from within is limited because there aren't that many positions to be promoted into. Um, there's a few corporates, but even those, you know, they narrow at the top. So um move if you're clear on your aspirations and what you want to do, it might be that you have to move. I mean, if you look at consultancy practices like Price Waterhouse and so on, they encourage people to go out into industry and then come back at another level. Go out industry and come back at another level.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so going somewhere else to develop your career, so long as you're doing it with your eyes open, you're not doing it because a recruiter has tapped you on the shoulder and said, I've got this big shiny salary for you. It's got to fit with your career plan, be proactive about developing the skills you need, the networks you need, you know, the relationships. So again, it's own it, be proactive about it, be clear what it's gonna give you and why. So I think they're still valid, um, and probably you just gotta work a bit harder on it yourself.
SPEAKER_03But I think what that absolutely endorses, then, right back to the early part of this conversation, was ownership. Because if you are gonna move somewhere else, there is no one else to own it except you. Because whoever you thought in the current company was owning it, no, they're not, because this is you, so it just endorses that all the more, and maybe that's what really drives it home to you when you realize if you move somewhere else, you must be owning it because nobody else is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's very and a lot of people I coach um around career or around developing their lifestyle, you know, the way they want to work in life. Some of them will leave where they are and go do something else. Some of them will just be okay, actually. Now I realize why I'm here, and now I'm happy here. I'm not chasing my next career move for the next three years. So I'm just going to settle down and do a great job here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's okay to do that as well. And different stages of your life. You know, if you've got young kids, you know, and that's typically when a lot of career opportunities come, it's hard work to then do the next job and the next job. Um, and later on in life, you might just want a nice, easy life and not travel all around the world and stuff like that, too. So that you've got to be aware of where you want to be in your life as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think there's another thing here as well, right? We've talked about making sure your manager knows what your aspirations are and your desires. My advice would also be if you could get yourself a career sponsor. And that career sponsor is not somebody that you want interested in you working for. You don't want them to have a confusion that they're helping you get a new job with them. Their job is to help for you to be the sounding board and talk to them about what you're thinking about and where you want to go and get there. And it needs to be someone more senior than you, clearly. So they're acting as much as a mentor, but a mentor and a sponsor are not quite the same thing. But for now, let's say they are, right? But you need somebody that you can work with and use as your check and balance on what you're thinking and doing, not your manager, not your manager.
SPEAKER_02Correct, yeah. So the the the mentor, you're right, they're not the same sponsors and mentors, but because uh and that both of those could be outside of the industry as well, outside of your company as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can have a sponsor in the industry that knows opportunities out there for you and can guide you to them. A mentor can make sure that you're really doing a great job in all of those, yeah. Um, but also, you know, the tough stuff we do, the coaching, having a career coach as well, uh supporting you as well, really, or or just but having a few sessions with a career coach can really help as well to get you aligned on where you want to be, and so on.
SPEAKER_03I'm kind of thinking and saying, Do I think from what we've spoken through for the last 20-25 minutes could change anybody's perspective on having a career as a leader? And have we given them enough to do something different than they may have been doing or to endorse what they've already been doing? Do you think there's any other nuggets that we're missing?
SPEAKER_02No, I think the only um what I would say, and we you know, we said it at the end of last week, and if you're happy to do this as well, if anybody wants to reach out to us one-to-one to have a you know, one-to-one career coaching session, then just drop us a message. Yeah, we got a few last week, and really, really happy to help the people who reached out to us and um very happy to do it again.
SPEAKER_03And you and I both did that in our corporate jobs, right? But the interesting thing now, guys, is we've got no interest, right? We've got no personal interest in whether you take a particular job uh to support where we were in our career, right? So now, not that I couldn't have been objective before because I was objective, I was very happy having that, but you and I have no rhyme or reason to advise somebody incorrectly for our own game, it's purely for your own progression based on what you tell us you want to do. So you need to be clear on what you want to do, but by the way, we can help you with that conversation as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think there's yeah, we can help with the clarity and then help work out the path. I think is the yeah. That's I I'm not you know, that's a bit presumptuous, but we'll certainly do our best to do that. Um, so that was all about career and leaders, although anybody managing their career themselves and driving it themselves. So, I mean, hopefully that's been useful for people today.
SPEAKER_03I'd like to believe so. Yeah, I mean, if there's a couple of nuggets there, that's great. Um, if there's anything we've missed and you want to drop it into the comments to tell us, or if there's any direction you want to give to people that are listening in or reading the comments, then that would be useful as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, please do. And please, please subscribe, please give us the thumbs up. Please leave your comments. You know, that we need feedback, and we get we got some great feedback last week, which energized us. Uh, so it'd be great to get your feedback on on this conversation today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's interesting, right? We ended up having this conversation because things that were going on in our work life this week triggered it, right? And I think that's the way Neil and I are continuing to go. There's things that are happening that is so obvious, there's a leadership conversation or development conversation to be had there, and we'll keep on doing that. But again, if anybody's got any suggestions, great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we actually we had one yesterday from um a lady that you and I used to work with and uh about a topic we could cover. Yep. Um, so I'm looking forward to doing that in the next few weeks.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's interesting to reading her last comment. You've I think you've made her a little bit nervous about coming and joining us on the conversation, but again, please do. We've got we like having guests on. We've got a couple of guests lined up for the coming weeks uh already, guys. So look out for that. In the coming weeks, we've got some some new guests as well. But but a lady last night endorsed herself to be on here.
SPEAKER_02So that's good. So looking forward to it. Anyway, listen, mate, have a great week and uh yeah, look forward to catching up with you. Well, the next one of these. Indeed. All the best, guys. Good to talk to you again. Speak to you together. Okay.
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