Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
How not to be a really bad leader! - Live Webinar Recording (# 1-38)
Our first live webinar! This episode on the topic of how not to be a bad leader.
We've all either been victim or witness to bad leadership. Either way, it has negative impacts on individuals or the team as a whole and ultimately limits happiness, contribution and well-being.
Neil and I discuss examples of those we have seen and highlight the behaviours and traits you should really avoid as a leader.
We hope you enjoy the recording of this inaugural live webinar. Special thanks to those who joined us live and for the questions they kindly submitted at the time.
The webinar is now live, it says. Wow, here we are. The first Leadership Detectives live webinar. And welcome to everyone who's joining us today. Both Albert and I are really excited to uh do something live and see if we can help as many people as possible, not just with our recordings, but also in a live webinar. How are you doing today, mate?
SPEAKER_00:I'm good. I'm good. The only downside is you and I can't have lunch while we watch, right? So I hope they've all got their lunch, whether they've got their sushi or their sandwich or their soup. But um just sit back, guys, just enjoy. And if you've got any questions, please let us know. We'd be glad to answer them.
SPEAKER_01:It's a bit weird being live. It feels a bit like, you know, when you say that, sitting down having lunch, watching us, it feels like being the Holly Willoughby and Phil Schofield of uh of leadership. I don't think we'll go there any further, right? Okay, so where the the purpose of the leadership detectives is to help new leaders, existing leaders, want to be leaders, develop, learn, and upskill. And one of the things we want to really avoid is we want to avoid bad leadership. So the topic today is how not to be a really bad leader. And there are some fab examples out there of really bad leadership. So, Albert, let me ask you so, what if you were asked if someone had you in a lift and they asked you what do I need to do to avoid being a really bad leader? What would you say?
SPEAKER_00:What I would say is something I always heard when I first became a manager, because you you first become a manager and you're doing everything that you shouldn't be doing, and you're absolutely smothered with actions, you know what you're doing. And somebody said to me, only do what only you can do. That was the that was the tip for a manager. Let's turn that tip in for a leader. Do what you're meant to do. That's the difference for me. Because as a leader, the things that we're going to talk about here and that make a good leader, you could probably get away with not doing and still please your boss, still please the corporation, probably still please your stakeholders, right? But you might have an unhappy or a non-productive team. So that would be my tip is the things you know you need to do as a leader, make sure you do them. We know what we need to do, but do we do what we know? That's the thing, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and actually, I think my my answer to a similar question, if I was asked that, would be um be a leader. If you are a leader, be a leader, but also want to be a leader. And what I mean by that is poor leadership comes from people who are feeling like they're having to force themselves to do things that should come naturally, because if you're a leader, there's a reason for becoming a leader, and if you're leading teams, you're leading people, it's got to be about helping them thrive and succeed, not about how many pips or stripes you've got on your shoulder or your arm.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think I think the interesting thing is language is really important, right? And when you go for a job, when you go to take a new role, I don't know how many people talk about the fact that you are the leader of this team. They probably talk about the fact that you run the sales division, you are the head of business development, you are the head of delivery. Do they say you are the leader of the delivery team? You are the leader of the business development managers. I don't think that language gets used.
SPEAKER_01:And actually, there's a interesting analogy there as well. If you think of leadership, you know, the classic organogram is drawn like an arrow, isn't it, with the leader at the top?
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:And then you've got all this stuff below you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and so your job isn't to do everything or be everything, your job is to lead everything. Yeah, yeah. Uh so I think that's got to be key. So when you think of bad leaders, I mean, both of you and I have either worked with or been involved with very poor leadership over the years. Yeah. What can you think of examples of what they've done that made it such some such bad leaders to work for?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and it's interesting, right? Because human nature is we can probably identify things we're unhappy with or things that don't work easier than the other way around, often, right? Easy for people to pick holes in that. And more often, so so what are the things they've done? I'd say some of the things they haven't done, right? Okay. So, for instance, a lack of communication. A leader I would think of, I won't do names, but a leader that I can think of who wasn't the best. Complete lack of communication about direction and why we were there and what we were doing. His communication was all tactical, day-to-day, get this done, move to the next. The other one was about um people felt like an afterthought. The people were just a tool to get done what the corporation was asking that manager to do. And all the discussion was about the delivery of the metrics that he'd been given as a manager. So, so it's it's more about things he hadn't done. And the last one I would say, I don't remember that manager ever talking to me about my development and my um moving forward as an individual. I did all of that myself. That they just used me. What about you? I mean, you because because you and I have been through similar, and you've had as many managers as I have.
SPEAKER_01:No, but I it's interesting. So so I'm just writing down what you just said there. So there's vision, communication, people, and development, I think were the kind of thing. Absolutely, yep, absolutely. I think um, I mean, I've got various examples of you know, and it's not really fair to say someone's a bad leader, they're doing the best they can, I think, in a lot of cases, and maybe they haven't been this given the skills or resources to to do it in a different way. But there's there's a couple, and it links similarly. So there's a couple of things I've seen is it comes back to what you said about only do what only you can do, is to poor leaders try and do everything themselves, yeah, and the only thing that you should be doing as a good leader are the things that you should do, yeah, leading the team, motivating the people, setting the strategy. If you're in the weeds, if you're doing the day job and not allowing your team to, then there's two things happening. The first one is you're too busy to focus on the stuff you need to focus on, and the second thing is your team, and I can think of a real example of this, your team get depressed, feel undervalued because they want to do a good job, they want to uh use their skills, and so if you're not doing what only you can do, you're doing someone else's role and it taking it away from the pleasure of them doing it, yeah, yeah. So I guess, and it's interesting what you mentioned about vision and clarity, so or clarity of mission and so on. So, what do you think a good leader would do to help overcome that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, first of all, a test. Does my team know what they're there for and what contribution they're supposed to be making? Before I start telling the story, yeah, I might ask their version of the story because they might have a version already, by the way. So, my first thing would be to test it, guys. Why are we here? Imagine you just joined a team. I mean, even if you've been running the team for the last year, there's no reason why you still can't embark on the exercise, right? Guys, why are we here? What is our role? What are we bringing to the company, the corporation, the division, the entity that we work for? What are we here for? And how do we know that we're getting there? I'd ask them that and then see what the response was before we then go to the next stage. And and and you're good at this, right? Because you're going to come to them, the magic uh, what does good look like, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Which which is kind of the next step. So now we know where we're going. Yeah. What what's my piece of that? But I think with the the vision and the strategy, and and what it's too often talked about that we're looking at the company vision, or it's this big, exciting, uh, world-changing vision. Actually, every leader needs to have that strategic direction, that clarity of mission for themselves and for their team. It's not, it doesn't matter whether you're a first line, a second line, middle management director, you've got to have that vision for your team and what what you're trying to achieve on that journey through the next year, two years, three years. I think there's a bit of allegy here as well, right?
SPEAKER_00:You've got to make it real. You've got to make it real, right? If you've got some vision or some thought for the future that is just way out of sight, and we had it on a on our interview with the millennials. Do you remember? They said if they give us a challenge that is just so unachievable, or we cannot get our brain around it, we can't get bought into it. So be real about it as well. Be ambitious, but be real.
SPEAKER_01:And and so the final thing I'd add on vision before we move on to communication, I think, is think of being a pilot. If if you're not flying the plane and you're not setting the strategic direction and making sure you're not hitting mountains, yeah, who is? Yeah, because it's your job to make sure that you are guiding your team through the skies of wherever they want to be going with wherever you want to be going with your business.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great analogy. So if at some point you realize you're back in the cabin with the rest of the guys, who the hell's up in the uh cockpit?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a great thought, right? It's a great thought to think about what you're doing every day and how you're doing it and go, well, actually, who is flying this plane?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And and and the more time you can sp, you know, you've got to be conscious of am I getting stuck in the weeds? And if I am, who's looking out for where we're going?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So when we when we talk about communication, you mentioned it, you know, not knowing about things, not being what what do you think uh is really needed to make good leaders effective communicators and avoid being poor leaders?
SPEAKER_00:I I I think that the difficulty is getting a good balance between structured and unstructured. Because structured is about uh we are gonna, I'm gonna talk about where we're gonna go as a business, I'm gonna keep you up to date with what the metrics are looking like, I am gonna talk to you about what where we fit in the rest of the company and all that good stuff. But there's also those things where you get the at your door, right? And you need to be ready to respond to that as a leader because somebody might be coming into you with a major issue, either business or personal, in their life, and you can't say it doesn't fit in my calendar. So you've got to be ready for unstructured as well, where you're asked to jump in and help somebody with some direction or with some coaching or with some mentoring or whatever. So I that's one of the things I'd raise, Neil, but there's much more to it than just that, right?
SPEAKER_01:There's there's so much to communication, and I think there's this well when we're when I think about structured communication and what good leaders do is they have regular checkpoints in the calendar where it's an opportunity for their team to talk to them about what they're doing and overcoming issues, and it's an opportunity for the leader to talk to them about how they're doing and where they want them to go and what they want to focus on. Yeah, and it's important to too many people don't have a management system, and I hate the word management system, and I used to hate being operationally managed, but it is important to have that management system with your people so that they know they've got that time with you. Yeah, if it's too ad hoc or they've got all they've got to stick their head round the door before they can have a chat with you, then what happens is you know, the loud ones, the the upfront ones will stick their head around the door, but a lot of your team you won't end up speaking to, or you won't know what's on their minds. So schedule in that time. But with the unstructured, I think the key there is it's all about just being a human leader. Think of these people as people, get you know, just pick up the phone and phone them every now and then, not every day. The last thing people want to do is hear from their leader every day. Yeah, yeah. But just talk to them and and uh and engage with them, just remember they're humans, you're human, and you're all trying to do the best you can.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What about taking it the other way? What about the the conversations that you know you should be having, but you're avoiding for whatever reason? What about that? What guidance can we give there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I mean you you say again, if we look at the difference between poor leadership and good leadership, um poor leadership. I think there's two things here. One of the poor leadership is assuming your team or the business is not intelligent enough to understand what you're gonna talk to them about, and therefore you need to make all the decisions for them. Yeah, so they're not they're not mature enough to be able to hear the bad news that you're gonna tell them. Yeah, um, my personal experience of that is, and I, you know, I it's not comfortable sharing bad news, but but I had to do it once with a sales organization, and it was I just got everyone together and I said, look, this is the situation, guys. This is what we've been given, this is the decision I'm thinking of making. What you I want some input, you know. I want you to and just be open with people. And guess what? You know, you get buy-in, you get support, and sometimes you get not sometimes, lots of times, you get better ideas from people as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, you're right. Look, we'll spend a bit more time on communication because this is such a key part of being a good leader, right? The other one that I would raise in here, guys, as well, is there's times at which you've got to have difficult conversations because something isn't going to plan. Somebody's either not performing well or or they're not behaving in the way they need, or they're not gelling well with the team, or whatever. Take those conversations on because the anticipation and pain of having them, which it feels really awkward, once it's done, is so much better for them, for you, and for the overall team. But you've got to grasp the nettle and go and have those difficult conversations. I'm not saying jump in immediately, somebody has a problem. Stand back and look at it. Consider if the behavior you might be addressing is is repeated, consider whether you think they really need your help. They might not want you fiddling, right? It might be a but think about, but don't avoid those difficult conversations, guys.
SPEAKER_01:So the the the advice I'd give to people listening here is when you have when you have to have those conversations and you have to have them, um, because there's there's a couple of things. So, firstly, if someone in your team isn't doing what they what you want them to do, or they're not meeting the standards that you are expecting, look at yourself first. Look at yourself first because maybe you haven't made it clear to them exactly what you need from them. So your expectation is set. I think the second thing I I'd I'd say is again it's about being human again. Be human with the conversation, be human with you're coming from a place of I want to work out how I can help you be better at what you're doing, not I want to beat you around the head with a stick. Yeah, and and I see poor leaders do that. I see poor leaders criticize, I see poor leaders try and find fault, and instead of good leaders try and help coach and make their team better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and and I've said it before, I'll say it again. I don't think people get out of bed in the morning wondering how they can mess up today. I don't think people do that, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, no, I 100% agree. And I use your phrase regularly, actually. I think that's a really good way of if you go into that mindset that no one came into work today to screw up, yeah, you know, then you're gonna approach things differently. Okay, so we talk about people, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, look, we so we're doing leadership here, and we're talking all about that and saying, guys, there's some things you should do here, you things you should you should uh practice, and your business and running whatever you've been employed to do, but running your team to deliver that is key. So putting your people at the front of everything you do has got to be first, right? That's gotta be your first priority. What's your thoughts on that, Neil?
SPEAKER_01:Uh so this is this is another one of those when we said at the beginning about only do what only you can do or be a leader, it can't it comes back down to that. I agree, which is look at your calendar, look at how much time you're spending doing the job, how much time you're spending managing upwards with reviews and reports and so on, and how much time you're spending with your people. Yeah, have a look at your calendar because you if if the balance isn't people taking up a big part of your calendar in terms of helping them develop, helping them grow, understanding what challenges they've got with the work you're asking them to do, uh, help getting involved in projects that might interest them. If if your calendar doesn't have lots of people stuff in it, then you're probably not leading, you're probably doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And the good thing if you're checking your calendar is you're making sure that you are planning ahead and doing this because someone's career, you don't talk about someone's career on the spot in the instant, you've got to be working that with them over a period of time. Have you got checkpoints in the calendar to talk to them? You know, have you got checkpoints in the calendar you're talking to a team about their development and how well they're doing? So, yeah, it's really good, actually.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a really important point I want to make on this as well, because there's a number of companies I work with where people, when people, when when managers, leaders talk about people, it seems to be the responsibility of HR. You know, growth and development, yeah, HR will make sure we've got those meetings in the diary. Uh, disciplinary stuff, HR will deal with that, or setting objectives, yeah, we've got a deadline that HR have set us. No, it's not HR's job, it's your job as a leader. HR just set the process in place, support you. And if you've got HR chasing you to set objectives, if you've got HR chasing you to uh complete annual reviews, then you need to really look at yourself because that that's poor leadership. Poor leadership is putting people last.
SPEAKER_00:But this but this is tough. I I've got I've got a mixed team, I've got some people who have been around for ages, I've got some who are new in, I've got some who are steady performers. How do I know how much time they want me to spend with them on their development?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, there's a tough question. How about asking them? How about sitting down with them and just understanding what because at different points in life, people want different things, you know? If if you're in your 20s, unmarried, single, and you're just in your new career, you're gonna want lots of growth and development put into you. If you're in your, I'm just using these ages as examples, if you're in your mid-30s, you've got a young family, you've got a new mortgage, and you want a bit of stability. Maybe you don't want to go to the next level in the job or expand your skill set. Yes. But yeah, talk, I mean, talk to people would be my suggestion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a really good point Neil makes, guys, right? Don't put somebody in a box based on their name. So don't put Neil in that box because Neil's priorities might change if you work with him for a number of years, something that was important to him a while ago might be different now. But keep that thermometer test going with your people, but ask them how much time do you want me to spend with you? How much input do you need from me? How much navigation do you want me to help around the company and with other people? Do you want me to help create mentoring opportunities for you, or do you want me to introduce you to someone for a shadowing opportunity? Ask them. Somebody might go, just leave me alone, let me do my job, pay me well, I'm happy.
SPEAKER_01:And I think an important thing on development as well, that again that I see confused, is development doesn't have to be send someone on a professional qualification course and spend lots of money on them. It could just be, as you've just said, just shadow someone. It could be going spend some time in another department seeing what they do. It could be going spending a week in a customer and and seeing what it's like being in a customer. So you can develop people without spending huge amounts of money on them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. So go on. No, I was over to you. I was just gonna say we've got 10 minutes on here that we want to make sure we do justice in that time.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and then we'll we'll we'll see if there's any questions at the end in the in the Q ⁇ A as well. So um culture seems to come up a lot. Good leaders create a a culture that enables people to thrive. Poor leaders create a culture which uh suppresses people's ambitions and their ability to do their job well. I don't know. What what are your thoughts on how you create that great culture?
SPEAKER_00:The first point I'd make is don't believe the culture of your team has to be the culture of the company. Now it's going to be difficult pushing back against that, but you can decide how your team runs. Let me give you an example. In the I think it was the 80s, but he'll tell me, there was a leader who ran what we called an empowered team. And he ran a team that had no manager steering the ship, the team steered it. That wasn't the culture of the company. So, Neil, how did you do that? How did you decide you were going to have a different culture in your team from the company and still be successful in that company?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. As probably for a full podcast, actually, that whole question of empowerment, it it came about because um at the time the company we were working for was looking for teams to try it out. And I put my hand up and it felt right to me, which was bizarre actually, because at the time I was going through Sandhurst and I was going through officer training, which is all about hierarchical control. And I'm I was managing a team which was completely empowered, and I facilitated them to make the big decisions about how they would run as a team, including their salary increases, including who got promotions. They made those decisions, not the manager, but the manager, you know, I I had to enable it. Yeah, um, but it was it was tough because when you're at a higher level, people are expecting a certain performance, and and actually, luckily, we actually outperformed all the other teams around, and I think that was because of the whole empowerment, yeah. Um, but there were situations where I had to push back on my leadership and say, no, we don't do that sort of thing in this team, yeah. Um, so just trust me. And luckily, I was working for a guy who did trust me.
SPEAKER_00:It's a good point. Now, as Neil said, this is probably one for another podcast, and we'll probably come back to you and talk to you on that whole topic because it is an exciting area. But you set the culture of your team. Now, I know you might have to conform to the culture within the company you work for because you're also a member of another team. But don't forget the culture you create helps people decide do they want to join here, do they want to stay here, do they want to leave here? And by the way, that that that might be what you want, but just remember you're creating the environment of people, you know. Is it a participation culture? Is it a command and control? Is it you set that and people will come with you? People will come with it's infectious, by the way.
SPEAKER_01:Correct, and the leader has to so I mean it's it's actually a question that's popped up here is how do you set that culture? How do you do what do you have to do as a leader to create that culture?
SPEAKER_00:I think you've got to involve the team. The important thing is you're involving the team, you're not doing this yourself, right? You have to sit with the team and say, look, if if the way we want to be is ABC, where are we now? Where do we want to be? And what have we got to do to get there? And what have we got to do? And you also have to be careful comfortable. Come back to a phrase we heard Zoe Bowman say to us, you have to be comfortable to sometimes sit in the back of the appliance when you're going to that fire, right? Because you can't take the front seat all the time. Yeah, that doesn't mean you can't steer, but you can't be in the front seat.
SPEAKER_01:And I think there's a does culture come from the personality of the leader, or does culture come from the actions of the leader? I guess I'm I'm kind of asking rhetorical questions. I mean, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00:I I think I think it's both. I think you've got to be careful you're not trying to make everybody like you, because that is really not the right thing to do. But what you you what you do has to match what you say. This is about walking to talk, guys. Right? You've got to practice what you're preaching and you've got to do it consistently and continuously.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a really good point. You set you set a high-energy, open, connected culture, and you shut yourself in the office uh all day, yeah, and uh don't tell anyone what's going on, then you're gonna struggle to create that that culture within within the business. Yeah, okay. So um I'm I can see the question, a couple of questions popping up here. So when let me just ask you, and then well, I'll I'll try and answer this as well. But when you're um creating a vision for a business or a team, how long term do you think is is about right, or how far, how how much is too far away?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it depends why you're creating that vision, right? If you've been given a very specific mission, then I guess that that's gonna tell you when it is. But I would say you've got to have a reasonable outlook. You cannot turn these things. I'll come back to my analogy I've used before about driving a big tanker. You can't turn this on the spot, and you've got to bring people with you, and you've got to make sure everything that you're trying to plan is gonna kick in. But I think having horizons of three months, six months, nine months, twelve months, that's the important thing and milestone checking as you go. So I don't know. Look, I would say if you're trying to set a long a reasonable vision, setting it for six months doesn't sound sensible, right? You've got to be looking at maybe a year away. You might get your gains earlier and you can pull your horizons in. What do you think, Neil?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I've I I like the word horizons actually. I was trying to think of the right word, but I think it's a vision need there's there's different types of vision. There's a vision of 10 years. This is the type of company we want to be, this is the size we want to be, these are the customers we want to have, there's that kind of 10-year vision. Then there's a five-year checkpoint, the horizon. You know, this is where we're gonna be at three years is so I think you need that long-term um journey vision, a bit like Elon Musk with taking uh the humanity to Mars. And then you need the short-term visions, you need the okay, what does that mean for us in three years' time? And what does that mean for me as a team actually is setting your own personal vision as an individual?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh so I think horizons is a great word, long-term vision and then horizons.
SPEAKER_00:I think another one to think about quickly on that is where you think you will be in that mission as well, towards that vision. So I, you know, typically my jobs that I've done, I've done for about three years, and you end up going in, and the first year is trying to get it all to be where you want it to be. The second year is to get it really buzzing, and the third year is to enjoy what you just built. That that was my theory. It worked a lot of the time, but it doesn't always work.
SPEAKER_01:But that was yeah, all the team had had enough of you after three years.
SPEAKER_00:No, yeah, and in a year they've gone out anyway. Sorry, I'm stealing up stealing time there.
SPEAKER_01:So, what I so one I will do one more question because I'm conscious I would finish on the half hour. Um, when you communicate with people, how how often should you communicate and what's the best way of communicating?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so my view um depends what you're communicating. But if you're just touching base, is everybody okay? How are we doing? I like this personally, I like the start of the week thing. I like that. I like the Monday morning. How are we guys? I like a little bit of social, how was the weekend? Right, guys, what have we got to get done this week?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Now that's the very tactical communication stuff, but monthly check-ins on how are things going and quarterly check-ins on how things are going, I think are good milestones to have. How would you prefer to see it, Neil?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's uh I think it's a personal thing. I think, and and again, we said ask the team, it'll be different for different people, so ask them. Uh, personally, with anyone who reports to me, I would want to speak to them every week formally in a structured way, so that you know we have we have that checkpoint, and then probably once a meet informally, just a phone call just to check how they're doing. But everybody in the business, once a month, once a quarter, is probably about right because you can overcommunicate sometimes as well, and then people don't turn up because I think, well, I know what he's gonna say because he said it last month. Uh, but it's so if you want to set that inspirational vision once every two months, once a quarter, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, let me just clarify something there, guys, because I Know Neil well, right? That once a week I want to talk to that person formally is not overmanaging them. It's not saying where have you been, what's in your calendar, how many calls have you made to your customer. It's a touch point at which they've got the opportunity to bring anything they need to you, but it is also just checking that they're making progress on the thing that they're here to do, right? That's not unfair. You are a leader, but you are also an officer with a company. Don't forget, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's a reason for you being employed. Exactly. So let's um let's wrap up. So we're all we're on it almost exactly the half hour. Uh, it's certainly been an interesting experience doing a live version of this. I was a little more nervous than normal coming on to this session. Uh, hopefully it has been useful, Albert. A few last words.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, really useful. And thanks very much for picking up on the questions and picking them up as we go through. That's quite difficult to do that and still make the right contribution that we want to make here. So, look, this was this was the first time we've done this, and and we were talking earlier on did we want to do some more of these? I guess you guys can tell us whether it's worked for you, especially at lunchtime. A lunchtime's a good time to do it. Um, we don't really want to pick it up during commute time when we're allowed to travel again.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but we will turn this into a podcast as well, so you can listen to it uh on you know while you are traveling if um if you'd like to. So great, thank you for joining us, Albert. Great to see you again, mate, and look forward to talking to you in the next episode. Excellent.
SPEAKER_00:Cheers, guys, all the best. Meet you soon. Bye bye.