Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
What is a Leader?
Welcome to Season 2 of The Leadership Detectives. We’re launching this season by answering the key question; What is a leader?
We discuss what a leader really is. From the behaviours that leaders exhibit, the differences between competencies and attributes that make a leader and share our opinions on an age-old question ‘are leaders born or created?’
Touching on some points that you won’t want to miss, such as setting values as a leader and ‘leading from the back’ this episode deep dives into organisational culture and how, as leaders, you need to navigate this space with a clear set of standards and values.
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com/
And Albert on LinkedIn at: www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the Leadership Tech Text with Joseph Neil Fox. This is the GoTo Podcast uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a lot for you.
SPEAKER_01:This is season two of the leadership detectives. So Neil and I have been good doing some good development, working with some people on how we want to improve what we bring you. So season two, episode one. Neil, good to see you. Ready for our next live webinar on season two?
SPEAKER_00:Season two, episode one, exciting stuff. It sounds like a Netflix uh you know binge session. You know, we'll get to see all the seasons through it. Anyway, no, it's great to be here. It's great to be back. It's great to be doing another podcast and doing it live as as well. And and and this the topic this week, you know, I thought when we started talking about this, we put together the leadership detectives to help people who want to be better leaders.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And we talked about this, well, actually, what a what is a leader? We need to really define that and spend a bit of time just helping people understand or at least give our view on uh what is a leader. So that was where we thought we'd take the conversation for the next 25 minutes or so. And we've got a few questions posed, and we've got uh some people joined us for the uh the live webinar as well. So we're gonna uh open up for questions as we go towards the end of it. Um, but I just let's start with the dictionary definition. Dictionary definition of what is a leader, the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country is the dictionary definition. Yeah. What would you say, Albert? What would you say when you're determining a leader?
SPEAKER_01:So, I mean, what it says there, absolutely right. And that's a really good point, right? Because it says commands a country or a group or whatever, right? You're a representative, I would say, as a leader, you are a representative of a community. So you've got to think about that in this. You're representative upline, and to the people down below, they've got to look at you that way as being someone they can go to that has their interests at heart.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so so why do we need leaders anyway? I mean, so what you know, what would happen to an organization or to a team or to a country if we didn't have leaders?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nice, good point. I mean, look, we we will go into some of the detail about exactly what is a leader and what do they bring. I don't think we're going to dive into the hows, but we'll talk about what they bring. But but part of what they bring in terms of vision and direction and motivation and all of those good things, would they happen if you didn't have someone in that position making it happen? The team, let's whether it's corporate or whether it's sport or whatever, those guys are focused on the task. They're getting the task done. Who's doing the overall management of that? And then you and I always end up with what's leadership, what's management, right? But there is some management of that whole thing. Are you getting the best out of the people? Have you got the right people in the team? Are those people developing themselves? So you're also a good conscience for those people as well.
SPEAKER_00:Well I find really interesting when we talk about leaders and people in positions of power. So, you know, that like that definition about leading a country. Yeah. Someone who's could could someone who's leading a country or leading a business not be a leader? You mean not be a leader by title? No, I mean not be a leader, actually, not do a leader's job. I guess they could.
SPEAKER_01:I guess they could. Question is how effective would they be? Yeah, how efficient would they be? How happy would the team that works with them be? Yeah, I mean, you absolutely could have someone in the position that is not delivering what's required by a leader, not executing the way that a leader is meant to execute. Of course you could. And then we you and I normally call that bad leadership.
SPEAKER_00:I I mean, I would argue actually that there is a big portion of people who have leadership roles who are not leaders. Yeah. So then what determines when someone is a leader? So what so what so that comes back to the definition? What is a leader? And and so what we did a bit of Googling on this and to come up with some definitions. And actually, there were a couple of I thought really summed it up well. A great leader, this is a good quote, poses a clear vision, is courageous, has integrity, honesty, humility, and clear focus. This is really important. The next piece is great leaders help people reach their goals, are not afraid to hire people that might be better than them, and take pride in the accomplishments of those they help along the way. So it's about the people, it's about enabling the people. Would you say that was a good definition?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think so. I think you're absolutely right. I think look, we've always said people is absolutely key in in what you're doing, right? In fact, that that's the whole basis. You're leading people, you're not leading tasks, you're not leading things, you're leading people, and maybe that's something we haven't got across enough, right? Never forget, guys, as a leader that the leadership detectives talks about, you're leading people, right? Just by the way, Emil, there's a comment come up here on our chat as well. That and and and Carl has just said a leader comprises a set of core competencies, right? Absolutely right, absolutely right. And those core competencies are part of what we'll talk about as we go through here, you know, being able to have a vision and and motivate people and and and yeah, yeah, and I think that's that's the the kind of why and how you do it is one thing.
SPEAKER_00:And it does pose a question that I think on the the competencies is is interesting because are those competencies learnt or are they a natural skill set that someone is born with because of their personality, because of their drive and motivation?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's an interesting point, right? Because let's what's what's the difference between a competency and an attribute or a quality? So so there are some qualities that you might have, but I think competencies in my world, I believe competencies are learned because I think they're a skill. Do you have um an affinity to be able to do that anyway? Is it your natural quality and behavior? I think that's a different thing. Personally, I think we can make a leader out of most people, right? But the big thing is, do they want to? So you think you think leaders can be created? I think leaders can be created, but the raw product you're working with has to be right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's an interesting. So the I was asked the question several years ago. Uh, you know, are leaders born or can you develop inspirational leaders, you know, because there's a difference between having a title of a leader and actually inspiring people to make things happen. Yeah, yeah. And my first answer was no, you can't. You can't train people to be leaders. You can only, they're they're kind of born with those skills or they're not. You either want to be a leader or you don't. And then I I thought about it a lot more, and I thought, do you know what? Actually, at some point in our lives, everybody is a leader. Whether you're leading your family, whether you're leading your church, whether you're leading your sports team, whether you're leading you know any at some point in time in your business, you will take a leadership role and demonstrate all the qualities of leadership that we've talked about over the last 38 episodes. Yeah, yeah. So I think it, I think it's in all of us. It's I think, as you said, it's whether we want to do it or not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and and that, and that's the thing. Where's your motivation for it to be for you to be a leader on an ongoing basis? Let's say in your role, professional role, five days a week or whatever that is on an ongoing basis. So, as you say, there could be a task that needs doing, you'll grab hold of the nettle and you lead that task and you'll deliver it the way you need to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can you do that on an ongoing basis all the time? And then it brings in a different piece, right? Because if you're talking about leadership in a more role-based manner, now you're talking about long-term. Now you care about the development of your people. Now you care, it's not just a short-term get this thing done and move on. But I absolutely agree with you. Everyone has the ability to be a leader and have probably exercised it in one place or another.
SPEAKER_00:So then there's another question that we and we posed this question when we put out the web link for this. Was can a conductor, and I love this. You came up with this the other day. Can a conductor also be a first violinist? So can they play in the orchestra and be the conductor? Because a lot of leaders have kind of dual hats on, so can they actually lead, be a conductor and be the first violinist?
SPEAKER_01:Here's a good example, right? I mean, in football we hear about player managers. Yes. Can you be a player manager? I mean, you're a manager or the player. So could you be the first? Can you be the conductor and the lead and the first violinist? I I think that's tougher. I think if you can, then whilst you're playing the violin, you're not paying attention to being a leader. I mean, one of the analogies I know we've used before is about let's say you're driving a tanker or a ship. Well, look, if you're on the bridge, then you can't be in the engine room, can you? Because if you are in the engine room, who's on the bridge? Who's steering the ship?
SPEAKER_00:Who's steering the ship? Correct. And I think that's the key, right? So when you are in a leader's role, so you might have multiple roles, but when you're leading, you need to be leading, which is you're standing in front of the orchestra and you're making sure all parts of the orchestra are playing in unison to get the best tune, get the best sound, etc. Correct. But then you might have to go and sit in the first violinist seat as well, but at that point, you're part of the management team, you're not the leader.
SPEAKER_01:So, what happens when you go to sit in that violinist seat? What do you think you should be doing before you vacate your leadership position?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I don't know. Go on, tell me. I I that's a good question.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the question is whether you feel somebody else could step in for you, right? I mean, one of the most powerful things as a leader is mentoring people and uh coaching people. Well, I think one of the best things you can do is allow people, what did Zoe call it in the brigade? Um, acting up. Yeah, you get someone to act up and to come in and take the role of leadership. So actually, going sitting in the first violin seat, but giving somebody else to come and stand and be the conductor. Because by the way, if you haven't done that, who's conducting?
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, you're right. Yes, who's conducting? I just want to pick up on a comment that's uh been written here from someone who's listening. So there's a comment about the organizational context and being allowed to lead. So I think that's an interesting comment. So I'm gonna just I'm gonna probably be a little controversial here and say, I don't think it depends on the organizational context. I don't think whether you lead or not depends on whether you're allowed to lead. I think you can lead your organization the way you want to lead it. Now you might have to manage upwards and manage some expectations around you, but you determine the standards, the values, the direction, the vision of your organization, your team. That's my view. I don't know what what would your view be, Albert?
SPEAKER_01:But but I think I think the comments made is absolutely right, but I think we've got to put across it what you've just said there, and what I put across it there would be courage. You need to take the courage to do what you think is right. Some organizations might not tolerate that, there might be a consequence for that. By the way, there might be a reward for that, right? Have you and I always followed exactly what we were told we had to do, or did we go with our heart and our belief, even though it didn't conform to what we were given as guidance? We didn't break any rules, we didn't do anything illegal, but we pushed against guidance because we believed we could do different and better. Did we or didn't we do that? And did it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, no, I so my my view is you know, I've worked and you've worked for some pretty awful leaders. Yep. And what we did was we were a buffer. As a leader, we were the buffer between what we were being, the way we were being treated, and the way we were being led, and what we want, what we wanted to, the standards we wanted to set and where we wanted to take our teams. And I think courage is an interesting one. So leaders have to have the courage to step forward. They have to have the courage to step up and go, this is what you this is what I'm gonna do, this is how I'm gonna lead my team, this is this is the energy I want to create in my business. And if it and that comes out, so that so leaders have to have that vision. What is a leader? Someone with a vision, someone with courage, someone with clear direction.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because if not, then who's got that clear direction and vision for your team?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that's the point, as we said at the start, you're representing a community, which is your team within this thing. There's another comment here also around culture. Now that's another interesting one, right? Because it is tougher to push against the culture in an organization because you really need to try and conform with it because that's what you've joined. If you think the culture's wrong, as our millennials said to us when we did the interviews with them some weeks back, months back, if if the culture didn't fit, they wouldn't try to change the culture, they'd go to where the culture was right. That's fine. That's fine. You can't change the culture of a company to be the way you want. But but as an officer with a company, your first duty is probably to follow that culture.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think culture is an interesting one, actually, because culture in a big organization, you know, because people talk about the culture of Google or the culture of Apple or the culture of a steel company or a or a railway company. You know, they're there's all different cultures. Actually, I'm not sure I would use the term culture, I would just say it's a set of um standards, um organizational systems that they have that create behaviors, and that makes people feel a certain way, which I suppose you could say is is is culture. But you can also do that with your own team. You know, it doesn't matter whether you're running a Europe or whether you're running UK or whether you're running the post room, you can create a level of, I mean, I've walked into some post rooms with energy and passion and people wanting to do a great job for you. And and the person who's created that is the leader of that group.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. One of the words we haven't used here, right, is around values.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And a leader has got to have a set of values. There has got because standards is the same thing, right? But values to me feels more personal, right? You've got to agree as a leader, what are the values that you lay down and how you want things to be? And if that pushes against slightly what the organization prefers, it doesn't mean that's a bad thing because you've got to be committed around those values.
SPEAKER_00:So I so I think there's um there's an interesting question we posed, which is probably worth thinking about now as well. Is does a leader always have to be at the front? Do they have to be at the spearhead? Do they have to be the person that is leading the charge or is is driving? What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, if I if I picture it, then I understand why somebody would say the leader's at the front because everyone follows me, so everyone's behind me, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But that's just metaphorical, right? Do they have to be at the front again? Zoe Bowman, our firefighter, said once, you know, sometimes I have to sit in the back of the appliance, right? Does that mean that she's not in charge of the shout when they get there? Does that mean that she's not accountable for what's going to happen? No, but she doesn't have to be the one that's right up front, but she still has to have an overseeing capacity.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, if you're if you're at the front, you haven't got a clue what's going on behind you, have you? That's great. It could be chaos behind you, or there might be no one behind you. That's a really good point. So being at the front's probably not the best thing. I was I was pitch. There's a great picture of a wolf pack. I don't know if you've seen the picture with uh there's a picture of a wolf pack, and the leader of the wolf pack never goes at the front. You know, they put the they have the scouts at the front, they have the kind of old people, older wolves in the middle, and the leader goes at the back to make sure that everybody's okay and he can see everything that's going on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Look, uh, I remember one of the times we we things I got to do, we went up Ben Nevis, and we went up Ben Nevis in January in the snow that was absolutely mad, sideways snow, minus 20 degrees, it was crazy blizzard. If somebody got off you know too far ahead, you wouldn't even see them. Yeah, there's no point the leader being at the front of that, right? If we've all wandered off behind them, so there was a great example because actually I ended up one of the last people, and the leader came back for me, but it just proved he needed to be at the back, but able to see to the front.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Quite challenging, right?
SPEAKER_00:Quite challenging, which is right. So, so so the answer to the question is no, a leader doesn't have to be at the front. In fact, probably best if they're not, you know. There might be times where you have to to lead by example, but it you probably don't. So let's go back to um some of the comments that are coming through here. There's there's a thing here about does the organization have to have clarity with regard to strategic direction so that it can align to the values and organizational clarity regards their strategic direction. Starting point. So, Antonia's an interesting point here around if the people in the team's internal values don't align with the leader's values, what kind of problems might that create? That's an interesting thought process. I've never thought about that before.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, it depends if the leader, is there a right or wrong? If what the leader wants to see happen and is and is missioned as the organization to make happen, because you're not on a personal mission here, right? You are on a company mission that you are using your leadership skill to deploy, right? So I always remember the phrase that I heard growing up, which was you either change the people or you change the people, right? And part of that changing the people could be an education, it could be an alignment, it could be clarity, it could be the people don't actually see things that you see. Don't forget, in a leadership position, you get visibility they don't get. Now, there is also, if you don't have if you have to change the people, because maybe someone's not right in the team. That's not a bad thing, that's leadership.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and actually, if you think about, let's say, if you look at typical values within an organization that leaders are creating, one of them might be a value of openness. You know, we we're open with each other, we're honest with each other. Some people might might not be comfortable with openness, I guess, and might not be comfortable with that kind of culture. So, does that mean they're the wrong person for the team, or does that mean they just their level of comfort, you know? I don't know, I don't know the answer to this actually. I'm kind of thinking out loud.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's an interesting one, Neil, right? Because as we've always said, like, you you you shouldn't only look to construct a team of people just like. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. But so long as they don't miss out on anything and the team doesn't miss out on something from them, from them not wanting to conform to a certain practice, you know, we have to be reasonable. Look, we've always said you've got to treat individuals like individuals as well. But they also have a responsibility to the team. Just as you have a responsibility to the team as the leader, every member has a responsibility to the team. So, but we've got to respect people's individual individuality as well, right? I mean, how many times we go on conference calls and people don't want to put their camera on? Yeah, they prefer not to be seen now. You've got to respect that, right? But it's about deliver the team delivering what the team is missioned to do. You're as a leader, your job is to use people to deliver the mission you've been asked to deliver, but to give them careers, give them fulfillment, give them reward, give them recognition. That's your job.
SPEAKER_00:I guess there's an interesting question here as well, actually, because I, you know, if I look at the when I when I talk about values and standards, when I'm running workshops to help leaders set their values and standards, I use the example of the British rugby team and of the British Army because they have a set of clearly defined values and standards that they will live by. So uh, and so Clive Woodward, for instance, had 12 of them when he was running the England rugby team, and one of them was everyone will be on time, no one will be late. Now, so if that didn't fit with your internal compass, it wasn't a case of the team was going to change its values. You you then had to conform with those values. That's the minimum we're gonna do because we respect each other, we're gonna align to these values. So if you wanted to be part of that team, or in the British Army, if you want to be part of that culture, then you've got to conform to these minimum standards, these values.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, this is a difficult conversation, right? Because if we're trying to be too inclusive and let everybody have their own choices and their own decisions, that's anarchy, that's madness, right? Right, you know, but you've got to respect individuality. But come on, if there are certain standards, which is the way we do things here, that is not a drain on you personally, it's not attacking your personal values, it's not uh, you know, we're not telling you to come to a call at three o'clock in the morning, right? It's if it's reasonable, then if that's the way things are done around here, that's culture.
SPEAKER_00:I suppose that is cut, yeah. So there's the the the blend there. So, and this comes back we go back to the question, what is a leader? Yep. So I think what we've said during this conversation is a leader is someone who creates that that vision direction, that passion, that energy for the their team, however, whether that's you know, whether that is the post room or whether that's at the board level or whatever it is, yeah. They're the they've got courage and they set the values and they set the standards and they set the pace or the environment. So, and actually, if you've got a bad environment and a bad culture and bad uh feeling, that's that's a leaders created that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and they're a motivator, they're an inspirer, right? Their job is to inspire you to want to do the best you can do and be the best you can be, right? I mean, it's really difficult to do justice to this topic in 30 minutes, right? And nice to answer the questions and respond to the comments over here, right? But there's lots more to this, right? I mean, yeah, your job is still to deliver results, but it's about good communication, it's about making sure you're sharing with your team where the company's going, right? Or the organization that you work for. It's about being authentic, vulnerable, and human. That's a lot of what we just talked about here. This this individual respecting that individuality is about being human.
SPEAKER_00:I agree with you. And I think so. What is a leader is it's the person who is driving whatever that is forward. And that doesn't mean you have the pips on your shoulder or the title or the long business card, you know, with all the it it means that in that situation, you are setting the direction, you're setting the standards, and you're enabling the people around you to succeed.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. There was one more question in there, near we haven't covered, right? Which was do you need to be the master of the craft?
SPEAKER_00:I was just turning off, I was just gonna say that, and that's a really good point. So, as a leader, do you need to be the person who understands in detail the topic that you are of the business that you're leading or the team that you're leading? My personal view is absolutely not. You just have to know where you want to take that team, and that and it has to be compelling, it has to be inspirational. You don't have to be an expert at manufacturing widgets to lead a business that manufactures business widgets.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think you need to have an overall understanding as to what's involved because only then can you also ask some challenging questions about the team about how they can improve, how they can do it better. You know, one of the definitions we saw was about rallying people to move forward to a better vision. Well, better maybe means different. Well, you don't know what different is if you don't know what you've got today. So I think you need to have an overall understanding, but not into the widgets.
SPEAKER_00:Not into and in fact, you if you are, then you're probably not, you might be a technical leader, but uh that's different, and you're probably not letting the person who is the leader get on with their job.
SPEAKER_01:You're probably doing someone else's job, you're right.
SPEAKER_00:Let's start wrapping this up. You know, we wanted to start this off with what by talking about what is a leader while we start off season two, and hopefully that's been useful in that kind of conversation. Other thoughts you want to add before we start wrapping up?
SPEAKER_01:No, I I look really good to open season two here. This topic of what is a leader was absolutely key, kingpin for us to revolve around as we go forward now, because as we go forward over the weeks, not only will we have some good guests for you to listen to, but we'll also try and delve into a bit more of the house. So this was just going to be the pivot from which we've started, guys. Hope it's a good opening for you and really good to have to have been here enjoying it live.
SPEAKER_00:We've got the offer. If you want to have a free coaching session with one of us, please reach out to us, go to our website, send us a message.
SPEAKER_01:Can I just make a comment on that, Neil? Sorry, guys. We know we had a slight hiccup in our website. So we've just we had it fixed, but there may have been any of you that may have put a message in and we haven't responded because we didn't receive it. So apologies, but if you want to go back and resend a message that you may have put in, we now know it's all working the way that it should.
SPEAKER_00:So that's perfect. And so thank you for listening. Thank you for those uh that are live listening to this live. And you know, this will go out as a recording as well, obviously. And thank you for your comments and questions.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Really good, good to be here, guys. Thanks ever so much. Looking forward to uh to coming to you over the coming weeks and let us know if there's anything we can help with. Good to see you, Neil.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Cheers, Albert, you take care, speak soon. Cheers, guys, take care, everyone. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thumbron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.