Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leadership through Personal Adversity: Interview Jay Trestain
In this episode, we’re joined by Jay Trestain, Global Offerings & Big Deal Leader at IBM iX.
She’s been with IBM for 15 years, however, this episode takes a look at how leaders can lead when they themselves are going through personal adversity.
Jay’s story is both humbling and an incredible story of success in the face of huge adversity as we get into how she’s battled the loss of her mother and her husband’s terminal diagnosis, while simultaneously leading teams.
Jay tells us about her experiences with vulnerability as a leader and how’s she’s faced it in the workplace herself, earning the right to be ‘emotionally open’, how she handled the job at hand when going through tough personal situations and how ‘life’ and little things that you don’t necessarily ask about or know about but impact how you turn up to work.
Connect with Jay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jay-trestain/
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com/
And Albert on LinkedIn at: www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Fabron. This is the GoTo Podcast uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
SPEAKER_02:Hey, good afternoon, good morning, good evening, wherever you are. Welcome back to Leadership Detectives. So we're back here on a crisp day in April in the UK. Between Neil and myself, our diaries are crazy. We're really busy, but we're never too busy to talk to you. So, Neil, good to see you.
SPEAKER_01:How are you? I'm fantastic, mate. Yeah, no, loving it. Loving the fact that we've got so many great interviews going on at the moment, and today's going to be no exception. I'm delighted to welcome our brightest and most colourful guest debate, Jay Treston, one of the global leaders at IBM. How are you today?
SPEAKER_00:I'm brilliant, thank you, Neil. All the more better for having the opportunity to speak to you and Albert today. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:It's great to see you. And I'm just the colour, I love I haven't seen a pink office chair before. I mean, that must bring smiles to people's faces when you go on to video calls with people.
SPEAKER_00:I'd I'd like to think so. They either they either smile or question my sanity, but either way, I'm I'm delighted with uh the response. But yeah, I think we were just chatting before we came online. I love bringing a bit of colour and uh and fun to work. I think it helps lighten the tone. Doesn't matter how challenging things are, I think there's always an opportunity to smile makes people feel better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So to our audience, if anybody wants to know where the chair comes from and how you can get one, just ask in the comments. And I'm sure Jay will share with you.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:So, Jay, really good to see you. We haven't seen you for a few years, right? So, for people that don't know, we know Jay from many years ago when Neil and I went our corporate worlds. Jay was a bright and shiny then, and now you've just gone from strength to strength, which is fantastic. But let's let people know a little bit about you, Jay. If somebody was introducing you onto stage, who would that be? And how would they introduce you? What would they say about you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I love that question. And I kind of like doing it a bit left field because the obvious thing to start with is well, I work for IBM and I'm a global leader in our business and and and that kind of stuff. But actually, I like putting people on the back foot. One of the biggest things is um I'm also a part-time farmer. I'm a sheep midwife. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm a mum to a gorgeous little sassy pants girl called Dora. Um, but yeah, that there's I I try not to be so typical. There's many parts to who I am. Um, but yeah, being at IBM is one of those things. I've been here for I think 15 years now, but I don't like admitting it because the reality is I still think of myself as being the graduate that you you both know. Uh actually that's quite a few years ago now, and uh I don't like admitting that to myself.
SPEAKER_02:So are you in you're in lambing season now, right?
SPEAKER_00:We've just finished, yeah. We've uh we we've we've had uh I think 52 lambs out of 40 ewes, and uh so February is always a really brilliant month, you know, when it's horrible weather and really uh muddy and cold, but you've got the beautiful little lambs coming out. It's it's just yeah, it's a lovely balance of dark and miserable and joyful new life. It's lovely.
SPEAKER_01:And who would you have introduce you on stage? Who would be the ideal person that you would like to be the compare that introduces you?
SPEAKER_00:I the the person that leaps to mind is um Michelle Obama. I mean, who wouldn't first off? But I just find that woman so incredibly powerful and inspiring and so authentic and down to earth that I don't think it doesn't, it doesn't matter who you are, she'll have a point of commonality to make you feel at ease. And and she's just somebody I want to be friends with, let alone be introduced on stage. But yeah, I'd love that. That would if if in some random parallel universe that happens, I'll be a very happy girl.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, brilliant. That's a great answer. And you so you reached out to us on LinkedIn for uh through a comment that we made, and just you know, and and we kind of followed it up with a few conversations. But what what was it that you wanted to come on and talk to and share with the leaders that are listening on this uh podcast?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I think there's there's so many different angles around leadership. Um, and what we don't often talk about is about being a leader when times are really tough, both as an employee but also as a manager or a leader of people or a leader of business. Um and um as somebody that, in addition to being a part-time sheep farmer, I've got some challenges outside of work that make being present challenging sometimes, if not impossible, actually. Um, how do you manage all of those things? So it was really I don't hear lots of people talking about that, and I I'd love to have the opportunity to talk a little bit more about you know, it's okay asking for help and how can you be a leader and inspire others when actually you're feeling pretty vulnerable yourself.
SPEAKER_02:So you said leading in tough times, and and I know in our preparation discussions with you, you were a bit more personal than that as well, which said, when you've got stuff going on, right? Um and and so to our audience here, guys, we've not touched on this topic before, right? We've all made an assumption of where a leader is in their life and that everything's rosy and it's all what Jay brings to us is a reality that says, guess what, leaders are people too, and they've got stuff going on. So we'd like to come at both those angles, right? We'd like to come at the angle that says, How does a leader lead in tough times when they've got stuff going on? And they've got to think about themselves, but they've also got to think about how to be an effective leader, right? So that they're the kind of things we can cover here. So we've got kind of 25 minutes to to go through that here. Where would you want to go first, Jay? Where do you think we should talk about?
SPEAKER_00:Well, let me tell if you don't mind, I'll tell a bit of the story so people can understand what when I'm saying, you know, going through a bit of a tough time, let's give a bit of colour to that. Because the reality is, I think most people in their lives at some point or another will will face challenges. And and this isn't a competition of who's going through the most stuff, you know, it's it's all relative. And but just to help people understand a little bit of my frame of reference and my experience, I've gone through about four or five years of pretty traumatic things, including the very unexpected death of my mum. Um, and I found her and had post-traumatic stress as a result of that, through to um more recently, my husband being diagnosed with cancer, and it's a uh it's it's treatable to the extent that we can control it, it's not curable. Um I'm I'm a mum, you know, as well, and I work full-time, and as well as all of the other things that we like to do to keep ourselves out of mischief. So I'm a I'm a board of uh I'm on the board of directors for uh my daughter's Academy Trust, the farmers I keep mentioning, because it's such a passion project of mine. But I think the the big thing for me is that emotional upheaval. Cancer's a big thing for a lot of people, and I don't and I certainly completely did not understand of the the gross impact that cancer has on a family. And so I'm really fortunate in that my my husband's cancer is treatable, and he on some days is a completely, you know, normal. I don't like using the word normal, but but is able to do lots of things. On other days, he can't get out of bed, and there's no predicting what that is and and when that will strike. So we have to be very fluid and agile as a family to manage that. Similarly, we made a decision way before his his cancer diagnosis that he would be the primary caregiver for our daughter to enable me to really focus on my career. I've always been very career-minded, as I think you both uh know. I was pestering both of you for all of the insights I remember. Teach me, teach me when we made these really big decisions, and yet life gets in the way. So that's that's my kind of frame of reference is that emotionally that's a big deal on it as a time, the logistics of dealing with um immunotherapy treatments. He's had it, he's had to have his um his driving licence revoked. So I'm the the wheels of the family, living in a rural area. There's all of these little things that um that you don't necessarily think about or ask questions about or know about until you're doing it yourself that all impact how I turn up at work. Um, and I think why I feel so passionately about this is I've been given the opportunity to write my own rule book, How I'm a Leader in Our Business. It's enabling me to really have a fulfilling career and pursue my career without having to make a choice. It's not my family looking after my husband and my daughter or IBM. I can do both things, and I'm really uh I feel really privileged to be able to do that. So if I could give people the confidence and some tips and tools to take that back if they're having similar challenges, some questions to ask, some things to explore, then I would feel really positive about this.
SPEAKER_01:Because there's two aspects to this: there's how you handle it as a leader, and how you may maybe compartmentalize things or however you handle it, and then there's what you need from your team and how you articulate that to them as well. So, can we just explore both of those? So, how do you how would you suggest or recommend, or what have you learned of how to handle it in when you've still got a job to do and you've still got a lead?
SPEAKER_00:So I think um I'm again, I'll start with the story because it this has taken a lot of practice to get right, and I really didn't get it right to begin with. Um, I had this real um, I've described it as a bit of a god complex, and that's the closest thing I can describe it to, as leaders of an organization, particularly a big corporate, look and sound and say like this. And I was given a um a leadership position that was a massive step up, and it just so happened to coincide with my mum passing away. And I put on a real front and I was I told myself I needed to carry on and put a brave face on it, and my world was crumbling around me, and it got to the point where I could I got my team who all live in different parts of the world, it was a remote call. I got on the phone and I just I said, I need some help, I can't do this. And I was absolutely terrified. And this is my report, you know, that I was being vulnerable, that I was their leader, and all of a sudden they're going to start questioning my sanity and my ability to do the job. And actually, quite the opposite happened. Instead of any of those things, they all quietly took in turns to share a piece of vulnerable news or information about them. And all of a sudden we had this kind of circle of trust, and it was the most magical moment for me that made me realize that I don't need to pretend to be anything that I'm not. If I'm 100% me all of the time, that's more than enough. We just nailed it. That teen was one of my career highlights that and was the stepping stone for me that you know, actually letting people in is not a bad thing to enable, give people the benefit of the doubt that they, if they are understanding of what you're going through, they can help make um accommodations, flexibilities, compromises to help you be effective and positive without judging you for you know missing that call because it's the school run, or you know, not up because something's thrown up on your shoes and you didn't wasn't expecting it, or it's that vulnerability that really started making the difference.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because because you you answered the question before I asked it, Jay. I was gonna say, what does your team know about your situation, right? But you've answered it because you everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, everything.
SPEAKER_02:I was then gonna say, would you put a label on what you just did? But you just called it vulnerability, right? So is that is that how you'd label what you did there?
SPEAKER_00:I um it I certainly felt vulnerable in the moment, um, but actually I think I've reframed it since then because in in my mind, being vulnerable, it um it can generate and be a catalyst for lots of positives, but for a lot of people, being labelled as vulnerable can be a position of weakness, and I and sometimes if I'm feeling vulnerable, being called vulnerable is not helpful for me. So I really frame that to be more personable and open and transparent and and bringing all of myself to work all of the time, and that if I think about that on when I'm having a really good day, that means it we're fun, it's dynamic, people enjoy spending time with me, but it also means they know that you know, usually there's a kid or an animal flying into a call, and and actually the pandemic has has been a bit of a leveller for that because lots of people have had the same kind of challenges, and that's been a really beautiful experience for some people, you know, not to gloss over the trauma and the tragedy of what's been going on around us. Um, so I like to think of it more that it's yes, being vulnerable is part of it, but I think being open is more of a positive spin for me.
SPEAKER_01:You said your team reacted to that in a positive way, they all engage. Was there anyone who felt uncomfortable with you being open and vulnerable? And sharing that with you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, brilliant question. No, because the only person that it came as a surprise to was me. They all knew stuff was going on, they all knew me well enough to know that I wasn't myself, and actually, it was a relief to them that I was being honest and kind of admitting that that I needed some help. And the beautiful thing was they behind the scenes were picking up the slack anyway. So, me just saying, you know what, can we carry on like this was a relief for them because they felt that they were being covered, they weren't doing anything surreptitiously. And so just relief, Neil. There was no, there was absolutely no backlash for me of being vulnerable and open, quite the opposite. And in fact, that was such a defining moment for me. I have it written down in my diary and it gets translated to each year of the anniversary of when that happened, and I carry that with me when I when I go into new roles. And I've had two or three new roles since that time, but there it becomes this as a leader of a business when you're meeting new people, walking in as part of the first meeting and just kind of going, Oh, by the way, my husband's got cancer, probably isn't the um introduction. There is this element of earning the emotional right to be shared, to share like that. Yeah, and people don't want to, they're and that's absolutely fine, it's a personal choice. Um, but for me, it's building that relationship and rapport, and that's true with my clients, with my partners, and internally to IBM, building that rapport so they know exactly who Jay is. I'm the same person I am right now with you, as with work, with my family, with my friends. And um, for me, that earns me the right to ask tough questions, be flexible, and manage all of the various pressures that life throws.
SPEAKER_02:Before we move on to the team piece, I want to stay on this actually, Jay. And I don't want to overdo it, but I think it's really important. I just want to get a feeling for when you went into that and decided to be that open. What were you what was your objective? Was it I'm at the end of my tether and I just need to dump this, or was it maybe I'll come out with a different output? What was your objective going into that?
SPEAKER_00:Oh gosh, that's such that's such a good question. You know what, Albert? I don't think I had an objective. It was pure, I've I've I didn't don't think I felt like I had any other option. I felt like I was failing. And I and I recognised there was a lot of pressure on the business unit that I was leading at the time that we needed to perform. It was a sales-driven organization, and I felt like I was failing that business, and that the only fair thing to do would be to ask for help because you know we'd all fail together. It wouldn't be an individual, blame wouldn't go on to one individual or another. It was a it was a team thing. So it was it was desperation and no felt like I had no other option if I'm honest.
SPEAKER_02:But you know, that that to me makes it even more powerful from the conversation having here, right? Yeah, because that is you being human, yeah. And this is what Neil and I talk about all the time, right?
SPEAKER_00:And that's the thing, what why why it's personally impacted me so much was out of uh and you know what? I can even I can tell you where I was sat, I can I can take myself to that place uh with acute clarity, um, out of that real horrible period. Just it was it honestly, it was just like a revelation, and I'll be forever grateful for that team for responding in the way they did. Um, but it was the absolute validation I needed that well, why who am I pretending to be? Why am I doing that? I the only person I'm I'm putting it as a disadvantage was myself, and that that was the biggest lesson I've I've ever had as a leader.
SPEAKER_01:I think there's a really important point you you made earlier as well, which is they knew. Yes, absolutely. And we think that people don't know, but but people know. But the question I've got is actually what about your boss? So, in that scenario, right, your team, you're sharing with your team and and help them understand. But what kind of conversation did you have upwards?
SPEAKER_00:So I had a much more pragmatic conversation with them in the first instance, which was, and and again, for context, I being in a global organization, my manager, I I hadn't met physically met that manager at the time, but we had a very, very good relationship. Um, she'd um spent a lot of time breaking down barriers through phone calls and things. So we had a good relationship, but it wasn't face to face. So I'd at that point I'd shared the pragmatic side of what was happening. So they they absolutely had an awareness and actually her management style was exceptional, and she created time and space for me in whatever way I needed. I subsequently learned that messages had gone round to my kind of immediate peers and in-country leaders to let them know that just you know, just just keep an eye on Jay. She needs some time and space, everything's fine. She's communicating with us, but I learned she kind of created a bit of a safety blanket for me, which was so um reassuring that I knew my kind of village, as I call it, my work village, had just swung into action. And you know, I'd get the occasional reach out. So very pragmatic on my point. She let me take the lead, but she created a safe space around me to do what I needed to do, and that continues to to this day.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think that would have been any any different if she was a he?
SPEAKER_00:Oh probably. Probably. Um I think I think I've had I've had various different um experiences um with personal trauma. Um, and I've had one really bad experience where I had a family member pass away and it it was expected, but you know, there was an element an element of time for bereavement, and I had some administration jobs to do as part of it. And my male manager at the time asked, Well, couldn't somebody else do that? And I remember thinking at the time, what an incredibly insensitive question to be asked. Um, fortunately, that was a what that's one occasion out of unfortunately. I've had disproportionate number of traumatic events, and mostly um people have been fantastic about it. I think there, I think there is an element that as a woman, being led by a woman, I certainly feel more able to share. Um, there are some exceptions. I'm managed currently by an amazing guy, um, and he has all of the warts and stories and has had me, you know, in floods of tears post-diagnosis of my husband. You know, in fact, I think he might have been the first person I actually spoke to. So I don't I don't want to characterize this by gender. I think um, I think it very much depends on what people's frame of reference are, if they've experienced something similarly. But I do feel women more generally, and being a woman, yeah, I I naturally feel feel more open to being more transparent when I'm vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01:Um interesting actually, because what you've you you've described, and it kind of does lead on to the second part of what we wanted to talk about, was how leaders can create that environment where it's okay and disable people. Well, because what you've just described is the the the lady you were talking about, and now this this guy you're talking about, sounds like by it's not a one-time thing, they've created an environment where they can have that open conversation and so on. So, what is and that that's what I just want to drill in a little bit. So, what is it a leader can do to create the environment where it's okay for employees to be vulnerable, employees to uh be personable, open. Um so so what could a leader, what sort of things, what prescription would you give to the leaders listening on this?
SPEAKER_00:I think the key element is trust. Trust. If your employees do not trust you, they will not be open with you. If there is a shadow of doubt that them being vulnerable and sharing information with you will somehow um end up in some repercussion, this you will not be successful. So, how you build trust, therefore, is going to be very much on an individual basis. There isn't a recipe or rule book for building trust because we're all individuals, we're all people, and we respond very differently. You know, for some, my colourful and very loud way of being is like the antithesis of sharing, you know, they don't want to do that, and that's fine. But you need to spend the time at an individual level understanding who your people are, know who they are, ask questions, and over time, if they're willing to be open, they will. But remember, you know, don't just pay it lip service, listen, listen to what they're telling you. Write down the names of um of significant others, dogs, pets, children, what they're doing at weekends, and make the time to be interested. And out of that comes trust and respect and more of a personable relationship. And if you can do that, I I guarantee the rest will follow.
SPEAKER_02:I I think I think the magic that you've applied to it, Jay, is you said it right up front. The same Jay is in the office, is on the conference call, is in the kitchen, is on the farm, is at the school, right? It's the same Jay. Yes. And we're in a time now where I think people need to realise you don't have to be a different person at work.
SPEAKER_00:It's exhausting. Even trying to, when we're, you know, that just the very nature of homeschooling for those people that have got parents through the pandemic. I mean, I'm so pleased. I'm not a teacher. I have so much respect for teachers that I just, you know, and I think um I think what gave me a bit of a head start, and I've been able to filter that out within um my kind of network at IBM, is there are pragmatic tooling type things that you can do to help make this easier. You don't have to be wearing your heart in your sleeve the whole time. So for example, um I my my immediate reports and those that need to know and have access to me, they have access to my calendar and I block my time. So if they've if there's things going on that I really can't do, they know you you can't block time because it's the school run, it's a chemo appointment, it's a, you know, I'm sorting lambs out or whatever the case may be. Therefore, and I set rules of engagement. So um I'm happy to do evening calls if it's important and you can't find me elsewhere in the day. But these are the kind of the conditions of satisfaction that you need to apply first, and then I'm all yours, no problem. Um, so there are things that you can do. Similarly, um, having really nice rigo around video calls, nobody likes being sat on back-to-back calls for eight hours a day, it's painful. And when are you going to eat and drink? Go for a wee. So, you know, um, schedule them for 45 minutes. If you if you need an hour, schedule them for 45 minutes so you're consciously giving people 15 minutes gap in between. Um, similarly, if you're just talking business all the time, schedule some downtime. When back in the wonderful heady days of being able to go for a Thursday night drink or have a coffee or whatever the case may be, we just don't have the opportunity for that. So schedule time with your team to talk in a more relaxed way. Um, play a game. I don't know. It's kind of difficult to sometimes break down those barriers via WebEx, but if you persevere, it's you really can recreate that magic. And this comes not from a pandemic leader, this comes from a, you know, I've led teams for years now where all of my reports are out of the country, so we physically can't be in the same space. Um, so there are real practical things you can do to recreate that magic and build that trust. Don't let distance be an object.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and there's two things you've said in here. One of them is about this blocking your diary and scheduling time because the key, and it's interesting, I work with so many people, coaching leaders, and it's almost like they've got these standards and rules in their heads, but they don't share it with anyone. So they so they how how does their team know that they they're not available between these times and that you know that it's okay to schedule a call in the evening for within these parameters? So they they're then disappointed because, well, how the hell my boss has put a meeting in my diary. But if boss the boss didn't know that that was a bad time. Yeah, that's really really important about you know, set your standards and rules and share it and make sure it works.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And that's that's the thing, people are not telepathic. And the other thing is if if you kind of come into it assuming the best, so if it you know, put yourself in that if you're worried about what people might say, flip the war game with yourself. So if your employee said to you, um, I'm blocking this time out of the day because I want to pick up my daughter or my son from school, or I need to, I just need to go for a walk. Like, brilliant. I'm so pleased you're making time for yourself. Then why are you fearful that if you had the same transparency that you would be judged for slacking or whatever? It's just not the case. You trust people and they'll trust you in return.
SPEAKER_02:There's a the advice, your advice here, just your advice is just outstanding here. It really is great stuff. We could have given you the script here, actually. Seriously, either that or you've listened to all of our previous recordings, but but Jay, you're right on. You're right on.
SPEAKER_01:And and what one of the thoughts that was going through my head, actually, which I'll share with you because I it I wasn't going to mention it, but I will mention it now. So when we were talking about turkey, bring yourself to work, you know. So bring the person at home to work. Um what went through my head was what happens if you're an arsehole at home? Bring the arsehole to work.
SPEAKER_00:I I my money, Neil, is that they're already an arsehole at work.
SPEAKER_01:Probably, yeah. But but I was I was thinking actually, most people, although my wife might argue with me, but most people aren't arseholes at home, you know, they're human, they're playing with their kids, they've got dates. So that they're probably, yeah, that that was just this thought was going through my head.
SPEAKER_02:Um so look, we've we've covered some great ground here. We have certainly gone, we've certainly gone along the time fast here, like crazy. Yeah, we we could probably do a quick couple of quick fires, Neil. And then I'd like to do that. That would be great, yeah. Um, so let's just do a couple of quick fires. Who would be your leadership role model?
SPEAKER_00:My current boss, Justin Ablett.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, here we go.
SPEAKER_01:So those that know those that know Justin are listening in, take note. Yeah, if you might want to be putting your applications in for jobs to work for him. Yeah, he's he's awesome. He's um okay. If you were gonna gift a leadership book to anyone, what book would you gift to them?
SPEAKER_00:Plan B by Sheryl Sandberg, and it's a how to kind of recover post trauma. That's a excellent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is. I've read it, yeah. It's very, very good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Fantastic. So people go off this call. What quote or saying do you want to leave with them from a leadership perspective that will help remember who Jay was?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you can have it all. You do not need to choose one or the other, and you can interpret that however you like.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. Okay. In fact, I think well, that's a brilliant line to leave it on. Uh, when you agree, Albert, I think that's a great line. Yeah. And uh wow, what a fantastic discussion. Thank you, Jay.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's my pleasure. It's been a real, it really has been an absolute delight to get the opportunity to speak to you both again. It's uh it's been a wild ride since the heady days of being a grad in TSS and you set me up for a really wonderful career.
SPEAKER_02:We always we always knew you were going places, we always knew you were. But look, congratulations, Jay, where you are today. I've got a list here that I could of all the things that you've done and who you are and what you've got going on, and the fact that you, for those of you that are listening and not watching, Jay hasn't stopped smiling the whole time, right? And I don't believe that that is a facade, right? Because there's something Jay does to run her life and to still be in this frame of mind. So thank you for the lessons that you've brought to our audience here. And I'll leave Neil to close us off. Jay, great to see you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, fabulous. Thanks, Jay. And just closing off with our audience. So please like the podcast, give us a thumbs up, subscribe, and just give us your feedback and comments, please. Any feedback, any comments is gratefully received, or other things you'd like us to talk about. And also, if you'd like help with leadership coaching at any point, please reach out to us because we've still got the offer of a free leadership coaching session for anybody who'd like to take up on that. But great to see you both and have a fab rest of the week. Thanks very much. Take care.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.