Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leadership in the Military & Transitioning to the Corporate World
Albert and Neil invite Military Cross retired army colonel, Richard Westley OBE, onto this episode. Richard shares how, after years of following orders, he found success as a leader in the corporate world.
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com
Find Albert on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Fabron. This is the go-to podcast uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
SPEAKER_03:During our past interviews, we've talked to people in many walks of life and different careers, whether it was military or public service or corporate world, but we haven't talked too much to people who've actually made that transition. Today we've got a fascinating and engaging conversation with a guest who says he might be described as institutionalized in the army but had broken out. Then went on to find his way in the business world and now has his own consultancy. We're very privileged today to interview Richard Westley, OBE, Military Cross, retired army colonel and business owner. He's a leader and the author of the best-selling book, Operation Insanity. We talk about the typical question about whether leaders are born or whether they're developed. His insight in that, development of leaders, examples of excellent or otherwise, are all fantastic and go towards making a very interesting and entertaining session. We hope you enjoy and manage to take some great lessons away from this.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Detectives, where we are searching out clues of great leadership.
SPEAKER_03:Bertie, how are you doing today? Good to see you, mate. I'm good actually. I'm good. I'm not bad. Yeah, it's been a busy time, had a good weekend. We're being allowed out to play a bit more, so that's been really good. And you're off to Scotland to play golf this week, aren't you? I'm off to Scotland to play Lynx golf for four or five days, and then at the night in Edinburgh. So really looking forward to that. But much more exciting than that is today we've got a great guest with us, guys. Um, introduced to me by a good friend of mine, Paul Goodwin. Um, we have with us today Richard Wesley, OBE, uh military cross, retired army colonel, business owner, leader, and he's the author of best-selling book, Operation Insanity, which is about his experience in Bosnia. So, really, really chuffed to be able to have with us today. Richard, great to see you, Richard. How are you? Welcome.
SPEAKER_00:I'm very well. Thanks for having me on, guys.
SPEAKER_04:It's an absolute pleasure. Which part of the world are you in, Richard? Just to uh give people a bit of perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Sorry, Hampshire borders, Dan Campbell, about um about a kilometer as the crow flies from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. You know, it's kind of ridiculous.
SPEAKER_04:Which I know we're gonna talk about today, and and also not far from Albert as well, of course.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, look, even though Richard might not be at Sandhurst anymore, he can't leave the vicinity, he needs to stay close and stay in touch to where his heart is.
SPEAKER_00:At the Pine Ridge Golf Club, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, good cool, good cool. We must meet up there sometime for a beer, actually, Richard. We talk about that.
SPEAKER_04:So, uh Richard, I'm gonna I'm gonna start with the first question just to get people to know you. Uh, so if you were being introduced on stage, and I'm sure you've been introduced on stage many times in lots of different environments, if you were being introduced on stage, who would you like to introduce you on stage? What would you what would they say about you? And what tune would they play, or what song would they play as you were walking to the stage?
SPEAKER_00:Uh resisting the temptation to say bring on the clowns. Yeah. So I I I'd I'd like I'd like someone, um, yeah, I mean he's quite contentious, but I'd like quite like someone like Andrew Neal to introduce me because he'd have me on my toes. I I just wouldn't know what's going to come my way next. That would be quite good, but I think he's um he sort of sort of thinks along the same lines as I do on many things, not all of them. Um, so he'd be quite good. He probably introduced me as somebody who had spent a lot of time institutionalized in the army but had broken out and uh and and somehow found his way in the business world. Um and um and probably allude to the fact that you know I was very slow on the uptake, and that you know, I finally after 30 years realized I didn't like being told what to do and decided to set up my own consultancy. Um and and um and I suppose um if I had to have some music um playing in the background, yeah, something quite rousing like Gary Owen or um or the writer of Alcaris or something like that.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent, okay, brilliant. Yeah, I like that.
SPEAKER_03:I like that. Fantastic. Well, listen, that wouldn't have been the first time that you would have been introduced on stage because we know you you you know you've spoken a lot and uh and people call upon you. Um and we've just referred about Sandhurst, right? Which is where you know you were company commander at Sandhurst. And Sandhurst, for those that don't know, and if you don't know, it's quite amazing, but it's one of the top leadership colleges in the world, right? People come from around the world to be able to benefit from the experience of being there. Having been there, Richard, what would you say are the key elements every leader needs to have at the absolute minimum? And also, do you think there's anything such as a natural leader? Or is this all about development?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, really good questions. Um to address the first part, what do you need? The first thing you need you need is is determination, to be honest. You you you you don't go to Sandhurst by default, you know, you really got to want to get there. Yeah, um, because the way they condition you in the first six weeks, which is informally known as beat up, but it is just part of the the grounding um of um a whole load of disparate individuals, is so demanding, so taxing that if you if you don't want to so 100% be there and succeed, you will fall by the wayside or you will get injured, you know, or or you'll get you know an upper brain injury and leave. So so so you you've got to be determined, you've got to be committed, um, uh and they will bring the rest out of you, to be honest. Now, the process of selection of army officers, you know, you go to the army officers selection board, uh, which is three days, where they look at you in every situation, they're pretty selective. I think about I don't know what the statistics are now. I think about 30% of candidates are selected then to go to Sandhurst. Um, uh and then they work out whether you're going to go straight on to the commissioning course or you're gonna spend a bit of time at uh a wonderful little place called Row Allen Company. Row Allen Company. Um, and uh and and and that really does sort out the uh the men from the boys. But but um it is it is developmental. I I personally, and it is a personal view of this, believe that some people have more highly developed leadership characteristics and traits than than others do. You know, some people are more are more happy whether they've been developed through school, playing sport, being a captain of a team, um, or running a small society or whatever. Some people develop um their their leadership styles and traits more readily than others. But leadership can be developed, it absolutely can be, you know, and and that is what Sandhurst is about. You know, six months when I did it, it was a year, it's a year now where they focus in. And and it's worth saying that they're taking, you know, sort of a batch of pretty selfish individuals, probably 85% of them would have spent three or four years at university just looking after themselves. And that first six weeks is about stretching people, it is about taking them way out of their comfort zone so that they're existing on very little sleep, um, an awful lot of exercise, um, and and and a lot of dislocation. Uh, and the and the aim behind that is it just doesn't matter how experienced you are, because some people have done TA service and whatever, some people might have had some service in the ranks before they were for officer selection. So there'll be different different levels of experience, but but the aim is that by about week two, it doesn't matter how good you are, how fit you are, how resilient you are, they will have stretched you to such a point that you have to reach out left and right and say, I can't do this alone, guys. You know, we we've got to work together. That's where the team bonding starts. And it's and it's psych psychologically, it's really well done. You know, they know exactly how far they're taking you. The difference is you don't know how far they're gonna take you. So it's um it's it's an interesting one psychologically, but it's about it's about bringing out those those traits and then smoothing out the ones they don't really want too much of and focusing on on the on the ethos of you know integrity, respect for others, determination, sense of humor, you know, relentless pursuit of exercise, and all the things that they they mantra you with. Long-winded answer, sorry, but it wasn't that question.
SPEAKER_03:No, that that is perfect. I mean, it interestingly, we don't see any kind of um level of um filtering done within a corporate world when they assign leaders, right? We don't see we we might see a two-day workshop or something where someone sorts out their mailbox and does you know two one-hour uh group sessions, but nothing to the level. Now, I understand the experience they're going to go on to is is very different, but I think there's lots of lessons could be taken to the corporate world.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I very much think so. I mean, you know, the the army has the army has the luxury of a sort of a cycle where you know you you train and prepare, you deploy on operations, and then you recover and decompress in order to start again. So there's a preparation phase. In the real world, you know, people are just on operations. You know, it doesn't matter whether you know you're in finance, you know, whether you're in um in production um or whether you're in security or whatever field you're in, you're you're on operations 100% of the time. And and you you you know you will have a filter, you'll have a selection process whereby candidates are interviewed and they're taken into the firm, you know, and and over their first sort of six months to 12 months, their technical skills will get really, really good. And then maybe after two or three years, um their technical skills will be you know honed to such a degree that the leadership will say, right, she or he's ready to lead a team now. Well, how are they gonna do that then? Yeah, you know, no one's given them any preparation for it, it's all their technical knowledge. And this is where I think businesses, you know, and the better ones do it, and they do it really well. Um, you need to invest. Invest in, you know, when they get their graduate entry schemes or whatever, you know, they used to send them to us. We get 300 from one of the world's biggest banks, would come to us for three days, and we give them a taste of our leadership and networking around the bank. They were all over from all over the world, so it was quite useful for them. Um, but we gave them some command tasks and some challenges and some group activities just to sow in the seeds in their mind that this is what they're going to be required to do at various stages as the career uh advances, you know, and then you know, the investment then means that probably you know, once every couple of years, you know, though that cohort or elements of that cohort need to go through some more developmental training, do it, you know, be exposed to different leadership styles, different leadership scenarios so that they can pick and choose what's important for them. And it and also, you know, to look at you know, some examples of a good boss and a bad boss, you know, get them, they will have seen that even at their young age, you know, traits of a good boss and a bad boss, you know, and at the end of that, then you know, you know, get get people to pledge to you know the the the three things they're gonna try and do more of, and the three things they're gonna try and do less of. You know, like that. And and then and then you know it is iterative though, because the more senior they get, the different styles of leadership they need to be exposed to. Um so it's so it is about career development for these people, uh, and bosses have got to invest in it, I'm afraid.
SPEAKER_04:So something uh I just want to wind back just to something you said early on, because I think it's really important as we as we uncover these clues of leadership. So the the office selection board that that people had to go through, and I remember going through it in 1989, so a long time ago. But one of the things I've never known is what sort of leadership skills are being looked for as they're going through that board, as they're doing those tasks and they're working in the team aspects. What kind of leadership skills or what kind of traits are being looked for to know that this person's going to make a good leader?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think I think it's broader than that. I think they're also they're also looking at some uh traits and individuals they don't want.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, some of these people will have been filtered through and apply for Army Officer Selection Board, um, and the first gate at their recruiting office or schools, career office or whatever, you know, may not be impartial. So they are looking, they're looking to see the sort of person as well they wouldn't want. But what they're looking for is that they're looking at can someone approach a problem, work out a solution, and it's never going to be the perfect solution because they're deliberately designed so that you can be criticized and attacked and fed back on. Can they come up with a workable solution and can they communicate that clearly and effectively to the people whom they have temporarily been put in charge?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Do they have them do they have the mental agility to be able to think on their feet? And that's really important because nobody will catch an officer out uh as well as a soldier will. A soldier will ask you that rapier-like question just when you're least expecting it, or or will challenge, will challenge something very politely, courteously, but very directly challenge you. So they're looking for someone that can you know work on their feet, and she she or he must be able to be able to deal with these questions, process quickly, and then you know give you know a counter view um you know uh uh in a in a clear manner. They're looking for someone that's physically and mentally robust. You know, what they're gonna be asked to do um is is is not normal. Um and they have to see that someone is is physically and mentally resilient, yeah, and they will they will challenge um individuals, um, both in physical activities and but also um under pressure, time pressure. Um you know, is someone gonna fall? Is somebody you know going to take a reverse on a question and just melt? Because you can't have that in front of soldiers, right? So they're looking at all these things, and then and then and then finally I guess they they they're gonna want some honesty and integrity, yeah, you know, and they may well set traps about um to see who's the sort of person. Um the the old rumors about you know, you know, you have a you have an evening meal you know in the evening and they're checking on the cut of your suit, whether your shoes are handmade in London and all that, is absolute rubbish because because you know the army's a pretty classless society in my experience. It's not a rankless society, but it is it is a classless society. Yeah, and that's important. In fact, they do they are watching them though when they're having dinner in the mess in the evening, and then they're looking to see you know how they are in a social setting, you know. Are they the sort of person that you know doesn't want to talk left and right, doesn't want to engage with people, you know, and and is that is that because they they've got feelings of superiority, you know, or are they intensely shy? And that that's not to fail them, that's just to identify them. Because the the important thing is the report from AOSB goes with them to Sandhurst. The only person in their company allowed to see it is the company commander.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Two commanders and two colours who are with them every day do not get to see their reports. You know, they can ask me, the company commander, anything in his report I should be aware of. Uh, and and I'll say, Well, you come back to me in a week and tell me if you've got concerns, and I'll either confirm it, but you're not reading his report, because this is not about pre-selection, you know, this is about just being forewarned if someone's got some issues.
SPEAKER_03:Right. There's some there's some great stuff there, Richard. And when you think about it, of being able to understand are they resilient, are they mental agility, all the things that you've talked of there? You'd always got experience of seeing these guys coming through. How many of those do you think were and we're coming back almost to this natural thing? How many of those do you think are managed to apply that naturally? And how many of them have to develop it as a skill? So, for instance, sitting and talking over dinner, left and right, and being comfortable in any conversation, some people can do it. Let Neil in there, right? And you guys all want to go home because it's non-stop, right? But other people might struggle with that and they have to work at it. Have you got an experience of what you want to comment on that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's almost sort of exposure, you know, uh behavioral exposure therapy or whatever they call it. Umce one once there is once there is an identification of a weakness in a cadet, that platoon staff will start to work on it. And they will make sure that if if, and we're using this example, if someone is socially a little awkward or socially not terribly well developed, then the platoon staff will be working on that, and they'll start, they'll start firing comments out, trying to get that person to start sort of you know snapping back, answering back, building rapport, teaching them how to build rapport. You know, I can think of one officer cadet that that was under my command at Sandhurst who would happily sit at a dinner and not speak to anyone, either side of them. Just enjoy his meal, didn't want to talk, didn't want to engage, was never impolite, he thought. Um, and we had to work really hard on that. And the funny thing was that when he left and and he he went to the intelligence corps, he ended up running a field human human intelligence team. And that that's that's a team that has to go out and recruit intelligence sources, which means building rapport really, really quickly. And he excelled at it. He excelled at it because his platoon staff had sought had seen that he was a fish out of water in a certain situation, so they engineered scenarios whereby, if, for example, the commandant and his entourage were coming to visit the platoon, they would make sure that that individual was put in front of the commandant straight away, and then the commandant would start drawing stuff out of him. And it is, it is, it is and it goes back to one of the key tenets, I think, of being a leader, and that is knowing your people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Because you know, when things are good, it's important to know them well. When things are really tight, it's vital. If you don't know them, you won't sense who's having problems, and you only do that by engaging with them and socializing with them and drawing their talents out of them and developing them.
SPEAKER_04:So so what's really interesting, it's only just dawned on me, actually, and having been through Sanders and been through all the the training with the military, is it's that constant pushing people outside of their comfort zone so that they grow. And that's really interesting. I mean, because so for instance, just standing up in front of people and speaking, giving orders is uncomfortable for some people because they don't like public speaking. For me, it was never it was never an issue. Um, but is that something so so knowing your people is important then for all leaders because you then know how to push them outside of their comfort zone and how they can grow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's vital. You know, what we want to do at Sandhurst, particularly, is we want to keep the officer cadets out of their comfort zone for as long as we can. They've got to get used to the prolonged nature of stress. They've got to be able to recognize it in themselves as well as in others. And that, you know, that heightened self-awareness is so important in the best leaders. You know, they know not only how far they can push themselves, but they know the impact they're having on other people. So we want to keep them in that in that area between the comfort zone and the panic zone. You know, we we we want to take them into the panic zone occasionally, but those are limited exposures. You know, those are the times when you're standing on top of the trinasium trying to recite a recipe you learned last night, the wind is blowing, the rain is coming down, the colours aren't shouting at you, and you can't remember coriander, and you're up there being blown around like this, thinking, what is that? So that and we keep them there, and they're really uncomfortable, particularly those with fears of heights. We've got to take them there, but then we've got to have a mechanism to bring them back through that uncomfortable area back to a little bit of comfort zone. That's the decompression in the short term, and you can do that either through sleep deprivation. Yeah, they do a lot of that. You get probably three, three hours sleep a night for the first six weeks. Um, they could do it through isolation, um, they could do it through um exploiting fears. You know, some people might not like going under um, you know, muddy water, you know, total immersion, freezing cold water. Some people don't like fire, very frightened of it. Some people don't like heights. So you've got to expose them to all these little things and take them into the panic zone and back out. And then there's other little ones, some very clever ones I once saw done. Um, officer cadets just woken up individually and silently, literally shake on the shoulder, shh, take an outside, and there outside is everyone else, and they're all just doing star jumps, not a sound is being said, being being not a word is being said. You just hear the exercise going on, and then the instructor doesn't say a word, they just change the exercise. And they keep them doing that, so two o'clock in the morning, not a word being said. Um, and then after sort of 25 minutes, they'll just say, right inside, and that's it. And and you what just happened there? Yeah, all these little things are are cleverly put in these techniques um to ensure that they get that exposure to panic, yeah, but they get more comfortable in that in that that area, it's just outside their comfort zone.
SPEAKER_04:So it's being comfortable with being outside your comfort zone, actually, is that whole piece, which is which is great. So I'm gonna move on to another another area, because you've you've obviously got loads of experience of leaders inside the military, of leading people men and women yourself in uh in the military, and and now in seeing leadership in business. Can you think of a couple of great examples of leaders that you've seen leading really well and what did they do?
SPEAKER_00:I think a number of um uh of uh of examples, I think. Probably in the military, um, I'd look, I'd probably look at someone like General Rupert Smith. Um man, I've got immense time for, you know, the thinking man's paratrooper, uh, no offense. But but a man who a man who would get his team to spend 95% of the time available to him on understanding the problem and probably 5% coming up with a solution.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:If you didn't really understand the problem, you're never gonna get to it. He encouraged people to do that. Um, that a very thoughtful man, very well, and then great clarity of vision and expression. You know, he he had that way of taking something quite complex and making it sound pretty simple. And um and I once asked him, I said, What do you think the most important um trait in the leader is? And he just looked at me and said, forgiveness. I assume he was forgiving me for something I either had or hadn't done, really. Um I mean, outside in um in business, I see a number of very, very effective leaders, and they they are all those, every single one of them, no matter whether in the sporting arena or business or or or high finance, those that I think are particularly effective are those that have got a really well-developed sense of self-awareness, as I mentioned. You know, they're really actively listening to their people. You know, they're listening to really understand, not just so they can respond. You know, they're taking the stuff in, and you can you can tell. And and and you know, and at the same time, they are clocking what the impact that hit their own words have on people. So looking as they're speaking to people. You know, I've heard it said that you know Bill Clinton could could could walk into a room, you know, and and speak to someone, and they just thought that there was no one else in the room. He was just focused on them. Yeah, and that sort of ability is um is a great, great, great gift. Um, I think there's some great businessmen out there that um that that that that really do put their people first, you know, and um, you know, I think every everyone, a lot of people will knock the likes of Jeff Bezos, you know, at Amazon. Look what he's created. He's created a in a really empowered company. Um they they you know people come up, they it encourages the good ideas. He he he you know he's moved on now, but he used to he used to lead by example. You know, he would check on you know a number of reviews on Amazon every day. If something wasn't happening, we'd pick up the phone and say, um, let's just have a look at it. What what are we doing about this?
SPEAKER_01:You know, who's this?
SPEAKER_00:This is Jeff Bezos back in the States, ah right. This is this is Tommy from Manchester, I'm onto it, so you know, all that sort of stuff. But you know, he empowered people, and and you know, the Good Ideas Club, you know, was is still there and coming up with new ideas. And he, you know, they will the the ethos is that somebody comes up with a good idea, uh, that they feel confident enough to say we should do this, yeah. And the managing director, you know, they tend to, I'm told, and I've seen it, tend to say, right, okay, let's put together a two pizza team, start working on it, feedback to me in six weeks. If it's any good and it's a go, we'll go for it. If not, we'll we'll bin it and move on. And that sort of agility and the and empowering people so that they feel they can come up with good ideas, you know, comes from the top. So I think Bezos has got that, had got that bit right in Amazon. You know, I mean, sadly, he's killing the high street, I know, but um the fact is we're talking about leadership here, not yeah. I mean, you know, he's leading his team, yeah. Um, and they are very incentivized. You know, they do not pay big salaries in Amazon, but they do pay big bonuses.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, they do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and um, and that's again, that's that's that's that that to me is um it is encouraging people uh not just to come up with good ideas and and you know, so we can promote the the company, but you you're you you're empowering them by giving them that incentive to do to go go above and beyond. So there's a couple of examples. There are plenty of out there, I'm sure, people that have created great companies. Um yeah, I I think I think I think the difference between the two is that you know um in the military, so Rupert Smith would get to a certain certain rank, there'd be recognition, knighthoods, and all that sort of stuff. In business, you know, it's it's bigger houses, bigger yachts, you know, and uh the the sort of higher you get up there. And there's a danger, I think, with both, but more so in business, and what I've seen is you start to lose that humility, which is really important, you know, in the army, because it's such a key tenant, humility. You know, if if you're not exit exhibiting um a trait of humbleness and humility, rest assured somebody around you will tell you you're not being very humble. Never see that in business. Yeah, never see, I've never seen that. And the other thing, because it's it's outside the question um that was posed, is that I've actually seen far more bullying since I left the army than I ever saw in the world. Interesting, and and and and that does interest me because you know, certainly the infantry was a very you know patriarchal, patrilinear society, um uh with testosterone-fueled kids and uh with a with a tremendous capacity for violence. Uh really. And yet, actually, you know, we built a culture, you know. Firstly, I made it quite clear that bullying was one of the few things that I would I had zero tolerance for, and I would I would attack anyone that I saw bullying. Um but but it actually is very, very limited. I think probably on about five occasions in my 25 years, I had to turn around and say, You're going a bit far there, knock it off, give them a break. Um in my first few years in the military, uh In in the real world, uh in business, I I was seeing examples of it monthly. In one particular company, I had to take the chairman and co-owner into the boardroom and say, what you've just done in there with that young person in a cabs is unforgivable. You humiliated him in front of the whole office. He was clearly struggling, and you were using words like, come on, this is easy, when you could see it patently wasn't. And I'm not prepared to tolerate that. They're too scared to come and speak to you. I'm not. And I'm keeping a note of that. And if I get four instances where I consider it pulling, I'm going to the board. I'm going to the board to make a formal complaint against you. And if it's upheld, you won't, you might be a co-owner. You won't be a director anymore. So, how did they react to that? Pretty violently, actually. Pretty violently, you know, initially. Don't speak to me like that. I'm sorry, I've earned the right to speak to you like that. You know, and you know, by the way, we don't have a whistleblowing policy in this company, and you should have one. The point is that 25-year-old bloke is going to go home and probably not sleep tonight because of what you've done to them. And I can't, and I won't stand by and do nothing. And actually, there was, you know, there was a re a redressing of humility. Um, there was a well, what can I do about it? I said, well, firstly, you can stop doing it. Secondly, you can get that person in, sit them down, and apologize to them. I can't apologize. Yes, you must apologize to them. And eventually we, you know, we got this person who's clearly used to getting his own way. Um, and and you know, the other thing, when he left the office, um, you know, and um the young person sort of went with him to walk and finish off, uh, actually actually called everyone in and just said, um, I'm very disappointed that nobody else even made eye contact with the uh with the the co the founder when he was behaving in that way. I've I've spoken to him, um, you will have seen me go into the boardroom with him, and I've told him that behavior is not tolerated. Everyone needs to look inside themselves a bit and just see, did your behavior ask the mirror test there? I know I'm more experienced than you, but you have to recall this. You have to call bullying out. And there's lots of, you know, uh, you know, I said, I'm losing eye contact. You know, you're all capable of doing it. And we started to develop this culture of watching each other's backs, right? So if it looked like someone was um, you know, about to get that sort of attention again, I would make sure I got up or somebody and walked closely by uh and and fixed the um the guy so he knew we were onto. And that's you've got to do it. I never had to do that in the army, never.
SPEAKER_03:I I'm I'm I'm I'm loving this interview, I have to be honest, Richard. I'm really loving this interview. And it's what's interesting is Neil and I did a recording about bullying some months back. And one of the examples we touched on was is the way that people are spoken to in the army seen as bullying, or is it seen as acceptable because that's the kind of role that they're in? And and you're dispelling some of that here today, which is fantastic, right? So for our audience, guys, the thing that I'm taking out of what Richard's saying here is of all the things we've gone through so far, it's about people. And we've said this before, it's about people. And it's interesting how things may have changed. So, Richard, if we look at leadership now versus leadership you've known over the years, whether you knew it in the military or whether you knew it in business earlier on, what do you think has changed for the good or for the bad in leadership over recent years?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I think I think the sort of collaborative leadership um um bit has really improved. Um, you know, many people will have, and there's some grounding, you know, uh the view of the army is very hierarchical. You know, one person stands at the top and says, make it this will happen, make it happen. Actually, it's much more collaborative. It's much more, you know, it's it's you know, at the end of the day, you will have a commander, uh, and she or he will have to make that decision. But the staff will have been engaged in working up the options for them. There'll be a lot of collaboration between the commander and her staff or his staff. Um, and the other thing to remember is that the British Army is really very, very small now. Um, it it it it will not, I would predict, and cannot, go on operations uh on its own. It will have to go as part of a coalition, yeah. Um whether that be you know the UN, NATO, some other um sort of uh uh coalition, and it will also have to involve people from other governmental departments, it'll have to involve uh NGOs and charity organizations and I.Os probably operating in the same battle space. And the one thing you can't do with those sort of organizations is be too dictatorial because they'll turn them off. Uh and so the army is now sort of it's what I call leadership without command authority. Um, they're having to exercise influence over those people, they are having to explain to people very different backgrounds, nationalities, ethnicity, religion, uh, explain what the overall intent is, and then collaborate with them and influence them to do their own bit. You start talking to an NGO about coordination, and you're gonna get a red flag. They don't coordinate. That is not a function they like to even talk about. So you've got to speak their language, which again gets back to knowing your people and getting to know them really quickly as you're putting a task force together. And it's very much more like you know, I see in the big companies that I've worked in where the leadership is very collaborative, the CEO is you know will will write his or her strategy with members of the team, then they'll explain it in terms of what that means operationally in sales and in HR, you know, and then people will be asked to get on with things. And I actually see an awful lot of that happening in the military now. As Dan yesterday, um great um uh conference in between industry and the military on Salisbury Plain, um talking about um a war fighting experiment that they're working on to try and improve training and relationships with industry, and and the military people they're presenting, sort of brigadiers and full colonels, you know, some of whom I knew, but most too young for me to even know. Um very collaborative. Lots of what do you think and whatever. And that's the change I'm seeing. Yeah, that idea. Of course, there's a time on a battlefield where it's do that and do it now, yeah. Um, but there is a lot more in terms of the complexity of operations um that require a lot more understanding and therefore more consultation and collaboration.
SPEAKER_04:It's interesting. I mean, we're we're certainly seeing in business and the businesses that we work with as well, that one of the things that leaders are having to develop is how do I influence people I don't have authority over? How do I bring them in and get them supporting my objectives, my intentions, where I want to go? So, exactly as you said, was leadership without command authority.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And so just actually a really interesting thought from you would be how do you do that? What's the best way of bringing people into that? So you've said, you know, make sure they're clear on the intent, but what what else could you do to bring people who you don't have authority over in to help you with your mission?
SPEAKER_00:Well, we've spoken about getting to know them, that's really important. Yeah, then getting to know you is really important, and then you appearing consistent. That's really important. That consistency is really important. Now I I got I got this, I got this sort of approach quite wrong in my first job of leaving the military, and I really learned from it. It was a real sort of you know, fail, learn, gulp, and then you know, try and try and thrive. And I I had sales teams all over UK and in some in Europe, and I went to visit them all and I sat them down as teams and then individually. You know, the way I do it in the army, tell me about your family, you know, and all this sort of stuff. It would massive weird alert. You know, who's this dude coming in that wants to know about my family? What's that about? And I realized actually in the military you do that because that's what you're trained to do. Tell me about yourself. What's your interest? You know, how's your family? Yeah, oh, sorry to hear about that. Yeah, anything I can do. You know, it's not, it's not it, it was just it was just wrong when I was in this company. So I actually I thought about it, thought that this is the this is the way I'll do it. So I went and told them about my family, my interests, and whatever. And they started to realize that you know, wasn't a weirdo and stalker, and that actually I was just trying to get to know them. So that that was a good lesson for me. Um, you know, don't don't overbear and don't overshare. Um but going back to the consistency bit, I think that's really important because you you know you've got to build trust with these people, these new people who may or may not be part of your overall team, but have to you've been put together. You've got so you've got to get them together, you've got to explain what you're about, what the task is about. Um, you then probably need to spend some time individually getting to know them. You probably need to make it less transactional, you know, and actually get an activity where, you know, after you've explained, you know, what it is you're about and what the task's about, there's an opportunity for people to actually come and approach you or speak to other people in the team over a coffee, over a beer, whatever is appropriate at the you know in the time. So making it less transactional and more sort of human rapport, I think, is important. But those people have got to know that in terms of your your profile, your makeup, and your performance, that you are consistent. And I know people that would would say to me they knew what sort of day they were gonna have by the way the boss entered the office. And if she threw her handbag down and started walking around, everyone would go into the windows, everyone wanted to be out of there. If she came in, sort of walked around, said good morning to a few people, and then sat down in her office, they were in for a good day. The problem was that everyone would be sitting watching the door. What kind of mood is she gonna be into? Yeah, what we can have to do. You can't have that because if you're inconsistent and they don't know how you'd respond or react, they'll never take risks on your behalf, they'll never seize an opportunity because they don't know whether they're gonna get patted on the back and given a bonus or shouted at. And so there needs to be a no-blame culture and a consistent, smooth leadership, even when it's tight. That's easy to say, but we have to force ourselves, and that's why it goes back to my bit about self-awareness. Yeah, if that boss had more highly developed self-awareness, she'd have realized that everyone was watching the door for when she came in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And there's an important point here, guys, listening in, right? There's there you need to get clear here between authenticity as a leader and not forgetting that you're always on stage. So as a leader, you need to be consistent the way that Richard has said. That doesn't mean that you're not being authentic. You are being authentic, you're being an authentic leader, right? So keep that in mind, guys, and think about what Richard just said here. Yeah, I guess we should move to some quick fire, should we?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because I think we if it's okay with you, Richard, yeah. We'll just um because we're uh probably 35 minutes in, so let's move to a couple of quick fire questions before we uh yeah, so I nothing nothing too onerous here, Richard, but um leadership role model.
SPEAKER_03:Who would be your leadership role model?
SPEAKER_00:Rupert Smith. Sorry, say again, General Rupert Smith.
SPEAKER_03:General Rupert Smith, perfect. You've already given us some insight into that, so thank you. Yeah, you said in the beginning.
SPEAKER_04:So is there a leadership book that you gift regularly to leaders?
SPEAKER_00:Serve to lead. The Sandhurst little red book, it's still on my in fact, it's reprint been reprinted in um in paperback white now, it's not quite as imposing. But there's some great examples, some great examples of things that people have done and said in there. So that that is the one I would always always go for. Serve to lead.
SPEAKER_03:Brilliant. Excellent. So from all the things that you've seen and heard and done, is there a quote or saying that you would want to leave with our audience relative to leadership? Anything at all that you think?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, probably about decision making. Uh, I would say good decision, great, bad decision, regrettable, no decision, unforgivable.
SPEAKER_04:Great. I love that. Like that. And and so the five, so this might might roll into that last point, but is there one tip for aspiring leaders or or experienced leaders who are listening to this podcast? Is there one tip you'd like to leave them with?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you've got two ears and one mouth. Keep it in perspective. Spend a lot more time listening to your people than you do talking. You and you'll not only gain their respect, um, but but you'll learn a lot more about them and what the problems are.
SPEAKER_04:So, my my take would be to any of the leaders who are listening to this, if you want to listen to any of the podcasts we've done, pretty much everything that we've talked about here, you just encompass so many aspects of leadership, so many aspects of things that you need to do to be a great leader. So, Richard, honestly, massive thank you from us for sharing that and your insights. Really, really powerful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Absolute pleasure. Thoroughly enjoyed it, guys.
SPEAKER_03:Listen, really enjoyed the time. Thanks for being with us. Um, and guys, please take the messages away from here. If you want to leave us any comments back, you'll see the postings coming out, both from us and from Richard directly. So, by all means, do give us your comments, your thoughts, and suggestions. In the meantime, keep subscribing, keep giving us the feedback, letting us know what else you'd like to hear from us. We're going to take some things out of what Richard and we've talked about here today as we develop our ideas going forward. Guys, thanks ever so much for your time. Look forward to talking to you again.
SPEAKER_04:Great seeing you. Thank you, Richard. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.