Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Values-Driven Leadership
What happens when two digital marketing professionals decide to build the company they've always wanted to work for? Emma Welland and Kat Sale, founders of House of Performance, reveal their refreshing approach to leadership that prioritizes values over EBITDA and puts purpose and fulfillment at the center of business decisions.
The conversation delves into the critical distinction between leadership and management. As Emma explains, "You can be a good manager and a terrible leader, and a good leader and a terrible manager." While management handles the day-to-day processes, true leadership is about inspiring people and taking them on a journey toward a shared vision. This distinction guides how they approach their roles as founders and leaders.
Their leadership philosophy centers around three core values: pride, agility, and transparency. These aren't just words on a wall—they're principles that guide every decision. When faced with a choice, Emma and Kat simply ask, "Does this align with our values?" This approach provides clarity in decision-making and builds a consistent culture. A powerful example emerges when they share how they handled an $800 mistake made by a team member, transforming it into a teaching moment that reinforced their values rather than creating a culture of fear.
What truly sets their leadership style apart is authenticity. Both founders emphasize the importance of leaders whose words and actions align—where "the mouth and eyes are connected." They've experienced firsthand how inauthentic leadership destroys trust and engagement, and they're determined to build something different.
Perhaps most compelling is their commitment to creating a business they themselves would want to work for. From offering therapy services to allowing employees to work from anywhere for a month, they design policies based on what would have benefited them throughout their careers. Combined with their emphasis on fun and social connection, they're building not just a successful company but a fulfilling community.
Whether you're leading a team of two or two hundred, Emma and Kat's insights will challenge you to examine your own leadership approach and consider how aligning with your values might create not just better business outcomes but a more meaningful journey for everyone involved. Listen now to discover why sometimes the best leadership strategy isn't focusing on EBITDA at all.
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon, good evening, good morning. Welcome everyone back to another edition of the Leadership Detectives, looking for the clues to great leadership. So it's been a while since we've come at you, but we've got an interesting session for you today. Neil, how are you, buddy? You good?
Speaker 1:I'm fantastic, thank you, and I'm very excited to have some very special guests on the podcast today. Some very special guests on the podcast today. So Kat Sale and Emma Welland are the founders and the leaders of House of Performance, which is a digital marketing company. I've said that right, haven't I? Ladies before? I, yes, okay, and I first came across them several years ago I can't remember how long ago when to declare transparency, when my daughter started working for them and I've just followed their journey as a business and as leaders over the last few years and it's just been an amazing journey. I'm just really keen to have them on and understand their concepts and perceptions on leadership, because I think, for all our listeners out there, you're going to learn something different and new today about leadership and leading a business. So, kat, emma, welcome, great to have you here. How are you both today? Kat, how are you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, very good, love a podcast, so I'm excited to be here especially have you done one before? Yeah, yeah, I've done a few, yeah have you okay.
Speaker 1:Well, so we got.
Speaker 2:How about we got something to live up to then, wow unless you tell us last week they were interviewed by stephen bartlett, then I know nothing like that not yet emma, how are you?
Speaker 4:yeah, I'm good, thanks. My first day back after annual leave, so still got lots of energy. Okay, good stuff where's that?
Speaker 1:yeah, where'd you go?
Speaker 4:devon, which I think your daughter's also in, but we weren't together. She did scare me when she told me that she was around the corner so we were in devon, you're right, uh, for my 60th birthday oh nice that's why we were down there, did you do?
Speaker 1:your 60th challenge in devon no, I did my 60th challenge around here. For those that are listening, that was a 60 hour walk to raise money for charity, basically, but no, I did it around buckinghamshire and then went down to devon on the Wednesday, um, but okay, let's crack on. So let's understand about this. So let me start, emma, as we're talking, let me start with you. When you think about great leadership, you know and this is all about leadership, yeah, what does that mean to you personally? What does great leadership mean?
Speaker 4:a good question, as always. For me, great leadership is all about inspiration and motivation, and I say that because, for me, leadership and management are often confused and intertwined, and I think you can be a good manager and a terrible leader and a good leader and a terrible manager. They don't necessarily need to be the same thing, but often, particularly in our world, the two tend to be the same path and they they tend to be intertwined. So, for me, leadership is all about inspiring people and taking them on a journey where, if only I knew, no, um, the journey within a business sense I would say, being a leader is taking them on the journey or direction that you want the business to go in.
Speaker 4:So if that is, you're a startup and you want to go to be the best performance marketing agency in the world, you need to lead and inspire your team to come on that journey to greatness with you. In the same way, like in a sports team right a leader, I think, if a captain is a leader on a pitch, so if you're in the lions tour right now and you're owen farrell and you want to lead, it's actually leading them to win that game.
Speaker 1:I would say in that moment is is the direction you're taking them yeah, it's great, great insight and and you've got to know where you're going then yes, a hundred percent yeah, okay, okay, how would you answer that question?
Speaker 3:yeah, like it's gonna sound like a cop-out, same answer. Really, I just feel you've got to motivate people and you've got to be there for them, but also have boundaries as a leader as well, because otherwise you could I think it's quite easy to fall into that. I'm a manager but not a leader trap. If you, you know, try and be there for every little thing and don't push them to do things themselves. So if you know, know, I think the question where are you leading them to? Is quite a good one. Like, obviously you should know the direction of travel, but also you want people to feel they are slightly in control of that and can comment on where they want to go, because otherwise you're not going to get full buy-in.
Speaker 2:Could I just develop a little bit more what you started with Emma? Just ask Kat if she wants to just develop this first. So give us the distinction between leadership and management. Then what's your understanding of the distinction between those two?
Speaker 3:Well, a manager, I think, is responsible for making sure that their manager if that's the right word does the work, is happy, they're there for them when things come up, uh, support their work, life balance, stuff like that. Yeah, a leader is much more in charge of like where's the direction, weakness and the people within it are going. Okay, that's my take anyway.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's good. Emma, you got any other thoughts on that? I?
Speaker 4:I would, I would agree. Uh, I don't know if you've got much to add there apart from I would say maybe, building on that we would see a manager as more internal and I focus on somebody's journey. Yeah, the leader is more the wider, like I guess micro macro, for being technical, is how I think we would both see it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. You both mentioned inspiration and motivation, and I'm curious, because that's easy to say and lots of people talk about it and use terms to try and make it happen, but how do you motivate and inspire the team? What is that, how do you do that and what does that mean to you? So maybe, kat, how do you?
Speaker 3:well, to motivate and inspire, I think you need say say you've got a bit of work coming in and you can sense people aren't excited about it. To motivate and inspire it, you would talk about where that work's going, what the outcome might be. So try not to focus on. You're going to get this extra bit of work and you're going to be quite busy and that might suck for a bit. Really, focus more on but this will enable you to learn this and this will get us this and it's going to be amazing.
Speaker 3:So I feel like absolutely still telling the truth so we don't exaggerate or tell lies ever but very much focusing on the outcome and how that benefit the person. So I don't know if for us, it'll be like if we win a new client and we give it, put someone on that client and then they go oh, a bit nervous because I've got enough time or I'm putting these barriers up. We will talk about well, yeah, but look at all these things you could learn and you will then grow from that. Most people want to grow in some way, don't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's which is a brilliant, it's a brilliant technique for motors. Future pacing, that's future setting the image of the future. And um, is that something you've been taught or just something you've worked out?
Speaker 3:emma probably taught me. I don't actually know.
Speaker 4:I bet you did, emma I just think we are quite driven people and so intrinsically we're biased by what motivates us right, like everybody is, and what you learn. And I think, building what Kat said, we like to see the impact of our work and so people that are coming in to work for us, and the size of the company we are and the types of roles we have, they want to have an impact. So, as as Kat's just said, if we can show them the journey we're on and show them how they can influence that, that's pretty powerful and motivating. And I, from my experience, sometimes the most simple things are the most inspirational, whereas when you're like shooting so far and it feels so away from where you are as a person, that organization, it ceases to become inspirational because it just feels too the depth you have to jump is just too much yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's too big a leap, so it's like you get down, yeah well, and what's interesting, what you've both said, it sounds like it's kind of intuitive to you, you know it's just.
Speaker 4:that's just the way we lead. I think it probably is One thing that me and Kat speaking for her now, but I think I agreed that we really believe a lot in is purpose and fulfilment.
Speaker 4:And we wish as younger people in the workplace? I definitely do, and I'm just speaking for cats. I don't know if you disagree that we'd recognised earlier that you know what this thing called a career and this thing called a job. You can have purpose and fulfilment within them. It doesn't just have to be something that you go and do nine to five to get a paycheck and then you seek fulfilment outside. Actually, within your nine to five or whatever those hours are, you can get some sort of purpose and fulfillment. And that's something I know sounds a bit of a segue, but that's something that we believe in a lot.
Speaker 4:And when we joined the business and when we started leading in this sense, something that we've always talked through is cat really values, having values as a business, which has been great for our decision making and our leading. But also when we communicate what we want from people, one of the things we talk about is we want them to work out what gives them purpose and fulfillment, because that's how they'll be motivated and that's how they'll enjoy the work that they're doing. And I think that comes back to that point of why we see leadership in a certain way. And motivation is inspiration, because ultimately we really believe as a pair that having purpose and fulfilment retains staff but also makes you do better work. Everybody wins if people have got that purpose and fulfilment in the workplace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Right, and it's great that you're. You expect the same out of your team that you would expect yourself out of it, right? So why not? I'll tell you. What I'm just interested in is how do you work as two leaders in the company? What's the dynamic? How does that function? How does that function?
Speaker 1:Go on Kat.
Speaker 3:That's a hard one, isn't it? We have some things like we have separate responsibility for, we have our direct reports, but we're still at the size. We're definitely kind of involved in a bit of everything, aren't we Emma? Yeah, it only works because of communication.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I can hear one of my children running up the stairs. They may pop in.
Speaker 2:Don't worry, that's fine.
Speaker 3:So how does it work? It? It only works because we're both really good at communicating. I'd say okay. So I'm trying to think of an example. Like emma's come back from holiday, you know, I've given her the back to back from holiday type notes and then we've had time this morning to debrief on it right not just got.
Speaker 3:I mean, we have gone into a lot of work already, but like we've not just gone, just get on with it. Don't worry about that, don't you know? You've got work to do, don't need to speak. And I think where a lot of co-founders go wrong is they stop speaking yeah I can see how it happens.
Speaker 3:It's really hard because obviously we fall out. Quite often, actually we disagree on stuff, like because we're both really passionate and, you know, think slightly differently sometimes. But I just think it's when you stop speaking you've got a problem there is.
Speaker 2:There is a phrase, by the way, kat, that says if two people in business always agree, then one of them might be unnecessary yeah, yeah, fair, I think so it's good that you've got maybe opposing points. I mean, neil and I worked together for many, many years. We get on much better off the pitch than we did on the pitch. I can tell you that Just the way it works right.
Speaker 1:Well, no, but I guess, like you've got mutual respect for each other and that friendship as well. So you know, you know there's well you might not agree on a business issue, like albin I didn't for sure but then uh, but, but you respect each other and you work that way, that way forward. I'm curious actually, emma, you talked about purpose and fulfillment being really important. What's yours? Um, it's a really good, timely question that now because we were just talking about this.
Speaker 4:What's yours? It's a really good, timely question that, neil, because we were just talking about this mere minutes ago in a board meeting. Okay, I don't have the perfect answer to that. If I'm honest, I think my purpose and fulfillment is when we are doing really good work. That's interesting.
Speaker 4:So if I give you an example example, a project that I'm getting purpose and fulfillment through at the moment in harp is we're helping a global brand with their northern hemisphere sales. Basically, they've got an agency in australia. We are going in as more of a strategic partner. That I find very fulfilling because we're helping with, we're having an impact and we're helping them achieve something. So I would say the consultancy side of the business um is is super fulfilling. There's also stuff that's not fulfilling for me as well. I can tell you that, um, but I think one of the things I like is that me and kat can have open conversations about what we are and aren't finding fulfilling and actually, what does the business need to look like in order to achieve both of us getting some sense of fulfillment?
Speaker 1:how do you do that? What do you mean? How do you, how do you get that balance between the two of you?
Speaker 4:so I think we both get fulfillment through similar things and we get drained of energy through other things. How we're doing it at the moment, being completely transparent, is thinking about what the organizational structure looks like, um, and what other types of clients we go for. So if I give you an example which I think we can talk about, kat tell me if we can't is. We started out and we were like we're not an agency, we're a consultancy, we don't want to be another agency. And then life happens and everyone starts referring to you as an agency and guess what? Suddenly you become an agency and we had a pitch call this morning where the client said I don't want an agency and I want a partner, and me and Kat were like well, actually that is what we set out to be. It's just we've gone into this world of being the traditional agency.
Speaker 4:So one of the things and that's something that we really were passionate about at the beginning and then life happens. So one of the things that I think we're potentially pivoting more to is doing more consultancy. Like we've got an in-housing webinar this week and we've got some other things up our sleeve that tie into that more, because we know that we enjoy that going into businesses and making an impact in a way that you can't always do through traditional marketing agency. Carry on so. So I don't know if you've got anything to add, cat oh yeah, just second it all, definitely yeah and what?
Speaker 1:what about you, cat? What's what's, what's your purpose and fulfillment? How would you answer that?
Speaker 3:very much a line with emma in terms of if the work is, if we're doing really good, interesting, exciting work which has an impact, that is like if I know for sure that's my thing, because if I'm in a rut, like even in my personal life, if I do a piece of work that's really good, I snap out of it like that. It's amazing. That's just that's just how my husband will be like what are you doing? Like, why are you working? You're, you know, like really good example. Like after my both children, after both were born, I suffered a bit with depression. Work genuinely pulled me out of that many times Because it gives me that purpose, like I say, and then you get that well done and you're like okay, I have value Kind of a basic need.
Speaker 3:For me it answers a really basic need, but of course there's like challenges to that is, if the work isn't as good or interesting, then it can go completely the other way and have negative impact, right yeah so it's making sure that the work we take on and who we work with because we're a client, we're a service business, really right who we work with is so important.
Speaker 3:So some of emma and al's darkest times in the business is when we work with people clients that are wrong and that don't respect us, and that is really hard. It's hard to be a good leader in those times.
Speaker 2:I'd say let's just, let's just dive into that a little bit. Then, cat right, because there's a good example, you say, of things where it's difficult being a leader. Tell us about a couple of difficult challenges you've had to deal with as leaders, whether they're people-based, business-based, whatever. Just give us a couple of examples of difficult things you've had to deal with and how you did that so I'll talk about the infamous gifting client Emma Favourite story.
Speaker 3:The business was probably what? A year and a half old and we got a really big consultancy contract the biggest we'd had to date, actually and we also had one employee, I think, at that time. So it was very early days. There were flags quite early early on, but we wanted the money, we wanted it in, so we did it and then very quickly it started to go south. So this cut.
Speaker 3:This client was consultancy, so they were running their ads themselves, so we weren't pushing the buttons, we were just advising and they wouldn't listen to our advice, then would bring us up and blame us when it went wrong, and the founder of the business loved to have us in a room and shout at us and then give us more work. So that happened. I think that happened twice and then Emma was like this isn't right, what are we doing? So we fired that client and that's quite hard because we were like, oh, there's all this money potentially up for grabs, but if we put that person we've hired on this account, yeah and leave, so they don't want to want to work on it, we're going to probably leave because we don't want to be shouted at every week yeah um, so we decided to let them go.
Speaker 3:Which detriment to our cash flow, obviously, because they then didn't pay their invoice either. So it was a really hard time, but it ties back to the values thing. We were never going to be proud of the work we did with them. I'm doing it absolutely no point.
Speaker 2:So the lessons learned that you take out of that cat would be listen to the flags, stick to your values okay, okay, quite basic really. Yeah, well, yeah, but it's a tough call, right, because the the being seduced by that money could have made you act differently, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think I think that's what's fascinating about that, when you've talked about values a number of times as well. Very few or I mean I do a lot of coaching and mentoring with business owners um run similar sized businesses than yours and very few people are values led. They're typically, you know. When I ask them what their goal is or what their drive is, it's a number, it's an ebitda number or a net profit number. That's what they're driving towards, not, um, not fulfillment, purpose and living your values. So, emma, I just wonder what? What challenges does that bring as a leader leading?
Speaker 4:leading to values yeah um, it leads sometimes to problems with EBITDA. I'll be completely honest with you. I think that me and cat have moved away slightly from values over the last 12 months and to be more focused on finances, and so I'm answering this the other way around. Yeah, and the impact on that has been negative all around. Um, I would say to our culture and to what we want to be and to our personal enjoyment. Sorry, so that's the other way around.
Speaker 4:So we're now going back to be seeking our values, because you sort of get caught up as a leader or maybe leaders wrong way, but as a business owner in you grow to a certain point and then suddenly you're paying for an expensive office, you need to be more on the cash flow and people are asking you more questions, and then it's harder to lead because you've got more mouths to feed, so to speak, with your values. So then you start looking at money. But actually, one of my biggest learnings, our biggest learnings, is values. Having values gives you a guidebook and it helps you make the right long-term decisions as opposed to short-term decisions. So I would say, when we're living by our values and making decisions based on those, we make the right decision on where we want to be as a business.
Speaker 4:When we're making, when we're not leading by values, purpose and fulfillment. We make short-term decisions, I would say, because we're thinking about that ebitda today, tomorrow, as opposed to thinking about what that looks like in a couple of years. So I would say values mean that you can lead with integrity and I also think you are a better leader. But I'm intrinsically biased because I base a lot of my leadership on the good and the bad that I've experienced as an employee. Um, and for me, the best leaders are ones that lead with some sort of moral compass.
Speaker 1:When people don't lead with values, I think it's obvious because they don't seem as authentic, which is something me and Kat really care about yeah, yeah, and which is I mean, it's honestly there's so much for listeners to learn and and hear in in this, because it takes real courage. You know, what you've just described takes a massive amount of courage to focus on the and believe that by focusing on values, purpose fulfillment, it's going to take you where you want to go. Um, but I'm also curious how you and this is a lot of organisations really struggle with this. A lot of leaders struggle. How do you get those values down through the organisation, especially as you grow and you bring new people in? And so you know, emma, just expanding on your point, how do you get that down through the organisation?
Speaker 4:Keep it simple, and it's not always simple to implement, but we have three values which I'm probably going to get wrong now. I'm terrified Pride, agility and transparency.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 4:And so the way we do it is day one we communicate what they are to our employees and then we constantly remind them of them and question them on it. So, if I give you an example, cats already mentioned pride, but it's the one that I think is a kind of different, a different value to have. And what we mean by pride is we want to be proud of the work we're putting out, because we've both been in organizations where sometimes time pressures, blah, blah, blah. You put something out that's a bit half-assed, you're not actually proud of it and then there might be repercussions at a later date. So, with the team, we constantly challenge them on are you proud of the work you do? And it's a conversation, because sometimes they'll say no and then they're self-learning why actually they've done the right or the wrong thing.
Speaker 4:Um and the same, with agility and transparency. The cat's done a lot of public speaking recently, actually on the transparency point, about the importance of like talking, about making mistakes. So again, we try and live, live these and uh, I can't think of the right phrase but by living them ourselves, it illustrates the team what we expect. So, oh, we made a mistake here. It's a safe place to say that you're making mistakes and we're proud of this work. We're proud of the work that you've done. And then agility, by constantly trying to change up what we're doing. I'm not saying that we're perfect at doing that, like. I definitely think that when you're growing and in a culture, you might think you're being transparent and open, but people don't always necessarily feel like they can be transparent back, but by trying to live the values and encourage them. That's sort of how we go about it. I don't know if you've got anything to add, kat.
Speaker 1:Yeah but what would you say, Kat?
Speaker 3:Well, I can give you an example where we've lived it recently. Say, kat, well, I can give you an example where we've lived it recently. So one of our team made a mistake on an account and the campaign wasted eight hundred dollars in like two days in the wrong country. So advertising in the wrong country, big no-no.
Speaker 3:So actually, what I loved about this I obviously didn't love that no problem, that's needs fixing but what I loved about it is the team flagged it to the client, told the client before they even spoke to me, right, I love because it showed me that they know that that is what I would recommend, because we always flag with clients. If mistakes happen, fix this right away. Um, so they told the client and then I had a meeting with the account manager to talk about what happened and why and what could you do differently, and that person was really nervous, but we had a really good chat and then I said, look, when you're not so stressed about this, I'd love to share. I'd love you to share this experience with the team, the team meeting right, and talk about it. Wow, and they really shocked experience with the team, the team meeting Brilliant, and talk about it Wow.
Speaker 3:And they really shocked me because they said and the team meeting was in half an hour from this conversation I wasn't saying we have to do it today. I was like you know, when your anxieties calm down in a few weeks, whatever they said, no, I'll do it today, it's fine. I thought great. So we went into the team meeting, I like loosely explained it and then I just handed over to them and they told the team what happened, why it happened, what they did, the process to tell the client, the process to tell the rest of the team, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 3:And we just talked about how important that is, because mistakes always happen, ideally not as big as that, but they just do like they do, and I've made loads of mistakes over the years. So like empowering that person to then speak about it, I think just really helped and then they could all see, okay, well, that person's not been fired, like it's okay. I'm obviously not saying it's fine to make mistakes all the time, but my message to them was mistakes happen, but then it's what you do with it after, right, and how you learn from it and how you show the client you're learning from it, and that's all that matters really.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely fantastic Listen to this, right, because I think the big difference listening to you two talking are as the founders of your company, right? We can have this same conversation, and neil and I do, with senior leaders in major corporates do they believe that stuff or do they say that stuff, right? Yeah?
Speaker 4:but you can tell yeah, we've seen that, yeah, you've. You can tell if a leader believes it or says it, and for me like as an employee, I can't work for somebody that says it, that doesn't believe it. It's a learning in my career because you can tell and there's no. To me there's nothing worse, particularly around mental health, of somebody standing there saying they support mental health. It's like my bsb and my bonnet and then half of the business or not half, but a lot of the business is signed off with stress-related illness, like the disconnect. This is an easy example, but the disconnect there is is obvious to everyone. I think that then ruins your leadership because I I as an employee I'm like, well, hang on, I'm managing a department, 10 people are off with stress and you're preaching on social media etc about how we care about mental health.
Speaker 2:So I think I think it's better to say nothing than say something you don't believe in sometimes yeah, yeah and, and you know, just going back to that example that you used earlier, emma, where you were saying, and you said hang on, I think I've reversed what you just asked me, because EBITDA probably became more. Look, at the end of the day, you guys can make that decision. You can say I'm going to trade EBITDA for values in my company and for good atmosphere and environment to work in right, and that's fantastic that you could be able to do that. That will drive your growth. That will probably drive your growth anyway. Um, you did touch on the fact that you've learned some of this from experiencing bad management. Oh, sorry, bad leadership, nice. Does anybody want to comment on that? Have you got anything you want to raise? Just to just to highlight what you would have seen as bad leadership. That's probably helped shape you be the leaders you are today.
Speaker 4:Well, I guess you kind of highlighted it just now for me. For me, it's when the bad leadership I've seen is when people say what they're saying and what their eyes are saying. The mouth and the eyes are disconnected. Yeah, they're saying, and what their eyes are saying, the mouth and the eyes are disconnected. Yeah, the the mouth is saying one thing, but you can tell that they there's not belief in it or they're not. It's not authentic, I guess, which is kind of why we have the values we do. So.
Speaker 4:For me, I can give you one example which I don't mind airing is I worked for a large network agency, um, and I had a lot of people in COVID signed off in stress and I went to the senior person at the time running that business and said I've got all these people signed off for stress and I'm quite stressed about that, like I want to make a change. And they Emma, it's not your problem, don't take that home. You can't take it home. And I thought but if I, as the leader of that department, I'm not taking the fact that I've got five or six out of 120 people signed up with stress, who is? And if you, as the CEO, are saying that's not my problem. We've got an organization that doesn't really care and that was the moment that I was like I've got to leave because I can't lead under a leader that leads in that way, if that makes sense yeah whereas I've worked with other leaders in contrast to that who are very inspirational and they take you on that journey and they care about you.
Speaker 4:They bother to make you know whether you're the bottom of the rung or the top of the rung. They give you that time and you can. You can feel the difference in a large, boring corporate, to be honest. Uh, that organization, that leader, was, but they made you believe that you were having a difference, even though, I'm going to be honest, you probably weren't. They were turning over a billion online. The little bit that we were doing in the uk market probably didn't have a huge impact, but you felt bought in because they took you on the journey and they made you feel special and yeah, so that's a great example.
Speaker 2:Right, and one of the things that neil and I try to teach through leadershipectives is a leader in a large corporate doesn't have to conform with the corporate. Be the good leader. Be the good leader, right, because culture you can still create culture within the team rather than just the overall business. Is there anything you wanted to add to that, kat? Any examples that you want to raise? Good, good or bad in terms of leadership you've experienced?
Speaker 3:I feel very strongly that you can't lead with a culture of fear, but with quite a few leaders that are just all about the stick right, no, no, taking people on the journey, don't care, just want to get them to get the work done, and I, you just don't get people brought in and they're not motivated, so can't do that. And then the other one, I think, is like what's tied, but like taking people on the journey. So did a really long, long time ago, way before hop did a big project to try and get the senior management team all writing their department objectives and six to 12 month plan that would then feed into the whole business's objectives. And we were just about halfway and I was in a meeting with the ceo and I said this is where we're at, this is the status, and the ceo said no, no, no, they don't know what they want to do. I'm going to write all the objectives I'm going to define.
Speaker 3:You know I'm talking about mr yeah I'm going to write this and I'll tell them. And I thought you've lost them. You've lost me, you've lost them. Like I said, and I said to that person even if they write it and you then work with it to get where you want, they'll feel bought in. If you just tell them they're not bought in, they won't care. Yeah, couldn't hear it, didn't want to hear it their way or the highway. So I would never lead like that. I think it's just a waste of time.
Speaker 1:Well, and you mentioned it earlier, actually you mentioned that when you're building that strategy, you want the team to help shape the strategy and shape the journey. And one, the strategy and attack and shape the journey. Yeah, and one of the challenges I find when I because I believe in that personally really strongly, uh, and but when, when I'm working with a lot of leaders, I haven't got time for that, I haven't got time to get the team, you know, involved in setting the strategy and journey, how do you, how do you square that circle and actually bring the team in and get them involved?
Speaker 3:well it's, it's taking a little bit longer over it. For the longer term gain, if you've got, say, you've got 10 people on a management team, if you've only got one person bought into the plan, you're not going to get anywhere, really, are you? Whereas if you've got 10 people or maybe eight, probably realistically bought in and working on it, you're gonna get somewhere really good much faster in the end.
Speaker 4:So yeah, yeah, so it's worth the example one thing that we did, as in hop that I think works quite well. I'm talking about belbing cat. One of the things that um, we did at the end of last year was there's lots of personality testing right that you can do and there's lots of different thoughts about personality testing. Um, and one of the tests that we came across was belbin. And do you know belbin? And yeah.
Speaker 4:So we decided to do that because it's less about the person and it's more about how they work with people.
Speaker 4:So it's less about learning whether you're an introvert for those that don't know introvert and extrovert and it's less about the person and it's more about how they work with people.
Speaker 4:So it's less about learning whether you're an introvert for those that don't know introvert and extrovert and it's more about learning how you create high performing teams and actually it's really about how you as a person show up to a team.
Speaker 4:So we decided to do that because we've got a lot of grads in in the business to try and understand actually how do people think they're showing up to a team and how do others perceive them, and I think that was super, super helpful for us as business and actually I learned about it a university program on at the moment and I found it and that's for senior leaders, and we found it super useful, just as senior leaders, to understand how we all show up. So I've used it in two ways as a leader down and then sideways, and I think that's a really good way of taking people on a journey, understanding how they show up and what they like, because then when you're thinking about that overall plan, you can make it relevant to them and you can bring them in in a way that suits how they perform and include them, because one size doesn't fit all right no, that's brilliant and that you're right understanding the team and helping them understand themselves and how they work with each other, how they can work better with each other.
Speaker 1:So this person needs this type of interaction.
Speaker 4:This person needs this type of yeah and that's massively helped us right like we've shaped our team slightly differently off the back of it, because there's people that love process, there's people that hate process, there's people that have specialist skills, there's people that are more social. We've used that to work out where people sit in the office but to help them with their career progression. Actually, as we're planning client teams, we can't have a load of people that only care about finishing projects and not actually coming up with inspiration, and so I like if I was going back now into a big organisation, I would want to be having that kind of programme in place to help people understand their colleagues and who they're working with, as well as the people below and above them and who they're working with, as well as the people below and above them.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, god, albert. So the the reason I'm smiling, by the way, is albert and I are waving pens, because when we want to ask a question, we hold a pen up. We're both going like this at the same time. You were first. What?
Speaker 2:I was just thinking, though, is is emma and cat's reference to belbin right, which is really interesting, because a belbin model, neil, we're going back 30 years that we would have applied that right. So the important thing that people need to listen to here is our audience as well. Right, leadership does not have to have changed completely over the years. Models don't need to have changed over the years. It's how people are applying it and the way that you guys are working as a leadership team. Honestly, it's outstanding listening to you right? Um, it really is. I don't. I don't know. Let me ask you a question do you know, do you guys know, how good you sound as leaders?
Speaker 3:no, we've got imposter all the time okay I think, emma, we both have quite bad imposter syndrome most people do once, particularly as women's only time I'll bring up being a female, but definitely is that doesn't help.
Speaker 4:Um yeah, I won't talk about being in masters and leadership, just to have validation that we're doing the right thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, yes, you can ask me Whoa whoa whoa, neil, you've got the pen.
Speaker 1:You go, just so, hang on right. So you just said something. You touched on it very briefly, you said I'm on a course at university at the moment doing this, and you then skated over it Get rid of it.
Speaker 1:Right, you're investing in your own education, you're investing in developing you as leaders. You know, you don't. You're not sitting there thinking I'm the finished product and I know everything and therefore I'm, you, know, and, but honestly, you, you, you probably don't realize because we talk to lots of leaders so we get to how, how rare that is to hear again.
Speaker 1:So another rarity from this conversation is that, yeah, yeah if it's okay, I'm going to take a slightly different tack now. Yeah, fun you guys seem to have so much fun as a business in and out of work. So I'd be you know, and if you look at their social media and people who are listening to this, you'll see how much fun they have as a business.
Speaker 2:Um, neil wants to come on your lunch. Neil wants to come on your lunchtime.
Speaker 4:Run, by the way, just perfect because do you know what it's really been done? In particular, refuses to participate.
Speaker 1:So if you could please do some parental bullying, that would be great yeah, so tell me a bit about how fun fits into your thinking as a leader and why that's important to your business. Maybe Kat can start with you well, it's ties.
Speaker 3:It does a little bit tie back to that purpose and fulfillment, because if you're not enjoying it you're not going to do as good a job. So, slightly selfishly, if we can make sure that our team are enjoying it, then they'll do a better job, which is great. If we I think emma and I have modeled it quite a lot off an agency where we met and they did a lot of social stuff and that's okay we wouldn't have the friendship we have without that. We can see.
Speaker 3:But you know, since covid and you're working remote or hybrid, whatever, it's so much harder for young people especially coming into work to build those relationships. So I think investing in that helps with our staff retention. Also helps client retention get clients to come to stuff um that. I mean we call it our community. That's something we're looking to build out even more this year definitely how can we get the community rocking even more?
Speaker 3:because when people are brought in, they want to be around you more and they stick with you. And then they you know they grow. Whether that's an employee or a client, it applies it ties into our purpose and fulfillment right.
Speaker 4:We enjoy that side of things. Like we've done a 10k as a team the last two octobers and it is such a pleasure to fundraise together, to go and obviously it's converted in terms of sport but to go and run and to see people that have never run a 10k do that and then we go for a sunday race together, it's super. I think we find it super fulfilling and selfishly if you socialize it. I just think everything's about relationships and life and if you socialize with the people you work with, it just makes your life easier. On a Monday morning when you get a message on teams that seems really aggressive or rude or mean, if you've done something social with that person, you fundamentally understand them a bit more whereas it's the same with our clients.
Speaker 4:If I speak not about team, but about clients, when we've not met a client, people are like oh, this I'm. You know this person's a bit rude. You go for a lunch with them, have a conversation, realize that they're human and suddenly they send that same message a week later and it's perceived completely differently because you understand the person, or they speak in a different way because they understand you and the value has been in us. Investing in that is super important. We started out in a coworking space and it was filled with people in their 30s, 40s, I would say, and our team were at the time very early 20s silent. They used to come in the office, in the office they used to come in on office days. They wanted to be in headphones. It was very quiet. We moved and got our own office and overnight the culture of the business transformed because people were able to bond and have conversations and that alone that's a clear line in the sand and we saw the benefit of people spending time together.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:And what's funny about that one is, if you were running the business based on profit, you wouldn't have done that.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And after the office moved, our accountant said can you be a bit more profitable please? And we were like we're investing right now and it's going to pay us back in dividends, which it has. So that's why you can't always run it based on the numbers.
Speaker 4:And also, I think one thing that we're really passionate about is we want to work, we want to run a business that we'd want to work in, so we quite often check that. So sometimes we'll be talking like we've talked about. You know, people offer friday afternoons off in the summer. We haven't done that yet, so sorry to any employees listening, but one of the things is like well, actually, if I was applying for a job or I worked in a business, that would be super appealing. So, like last year we introduced, you can work for anywhere for a month. We can't bloody get Gen Z to want to go abroad for a month, but that's the benefit that me and Kat were like well, actually, 10 years I mean even now but 10 years ago we would have been like that's great if I could go and spend the summer in France and still have a job and not use all of my annual leave. That's fantastic.
Speaker 4:So we kind of going back to the fun thing we think about what we enjoy now and then, what we would have enjoyed and obviously we're slightly disconnected, but what we think we would have enjoyed and when we're younger, and we try and make decisions based on that as well as what we need to offer. So, like therapy, wish I'd had an employer that had offered therapy like we both would. We both about it. So it's a an easy win for us to offer that. Yes, it's expensive, but it's the right thing to do so we try and make decisions based on on that, if that makes any sense yeah, I'm trying to.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to understand just one thing honestly. We've run over the time we normally take on this, but if you guys are all right, keep going, neil. If you're all right, we just yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got this question in terms of when you came together, did you come together with a desire to run a business or did you come to the gut together with a desire to lead? What brought you?
Speaker 3:together. We came together because we wanted to do something different. Because of the imposter, we didn't think many people would want to work with us. We certainly never thought we'd be big enough to hire. Uh, we just wanted to do good work. And then that evolved to right we do good work, we'd be a good place to work and be a place we would want to work, right? Um?
Speaker 2:so the need to be a leader became a necessity. It wasn't your objective, right?
Speaker 4:I think the the objective was two of us run a business just for purpose and fulfillment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the outcome of that was we became leaders right, okay, and and how do you feel about the fact that you became leaders, but it wasn't what you were aiming for? Does that question make sense?
Speaker 4:yeah, I think I'm going to speak for cat, so you can tell me if she disagrees. I think we love being leaders. We hate being managers okay, that's good, that's fair, that's fair, I certainly do, yeah, I agree, yeah, yeah, purely because we've been managers for years and the people side of things is really challenging yeah so the leading is a pleasure, the gritty people management side less fulfilling. If we go back to that circle of like what fulfills you, that is actually something that doesn't fulfill us. But the leading, I think, is a pleasure.
Speaker 1:It's the managing, that's the yeah, okay, good, you'll get to a size soon. You'll get to a size soon, I'm sure, where you'll have a management layer before, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the dream. Yeah, so I'm gonna. I think there's probably one more question. If that's okay, which is, given what you've learned now, what advice would you want to give to a young person who has is aspiring leader not necessarily a young person, a person who is an aspiring leader that you've learned, that you wish you knew back then.
Speaker 3:I think that's a really hard one and I guess I would tie it back to understand what you personally care about, then define your values and then you make your decisions by that. So, like so many times, like we would, you know we'd be talking about some whatever, something that may change the business, and then we'll go does that align with the value, yes or no? And then we, that just makes it so much easier to make a decision. I know we keep harping on about it, but that's brilliant honestly.
Speaker 3:You know what you are and what you want and what you stand for.
Speaker 4:Everything else is easier yeah, okay I, I agree I like in my leadership roles before this one, I always used to say obviously not to them. But at home I said I'd rather get fired for standing up for what I believe in than going along with what the business wants me to do. I'm not saying I'm would do anything wild, but I still stand by that. To be honest, I'd rather I have my own moral compass and what I think is important and I want to stand by that. To be honest, I'd rather I I have my own moral compass and what I think is important and I want to stand by that, and I would rather not have a job than compromise that which sounds dramatic. But having worked for large corporates, I don't want people like.
Speaker 4:My worst fear in my last role was that somebody was sat at home in their parents house in their bedroom crying and they said what's your head of department doing about it? And they would say nothing Because I was doing nothing about it, because I had my hands tied. And for me, for someone being a leader, I think it's building what Kat said work out what your values are and then don't compromise them Like don't compromise them for a pay rise. So I think everything in life is wishy-washy. This sounds, but it's to do with karma and if you do the right thing, you'll get the reward in the long term. So you can just go along with what management say is the line and like potentially do the wrong things by your employees, it's going to have repercussions. If you stand by what you actually believe in, in the long run you will be successful, and I really believe that yeah and amen.
Speaker 1:I think we're both albert and I are very, very similar viewers to that as well, emma, although probably didn't live it as well as you guys are yeah, um, so I I think, on that note, that's a great place to probably wrap this conversation up and, honestly, for those listening, just replay that and listen back to that. There's some incredibly important gold nuggets in there about leadership and great leadership, and thank you both for joining and, um, you know, thanks for all of the ideas and thoughts you've just shared and you know, and I wish you all the success, uh, going forward as well, because I just can't wait to see what happens next with you guys you started off by using the word inspiring guys.
Speaker 2:Very inspirational what you've just taken this through, honestly, really inspirational, what you've just taken this to. Those working in your company are blessed. They seriously are really blessed to be working in your company. Um, to our audience guys, give us some comments, give us some feedback. When this gets published, right and um, and I would say, just as neil said, replay it. I don't think you can listen to this once. I think you need to listen to this a couple of times because you're going to miss some nuggets out of them. You know, really good session. Thanks ever so much for your time and neil. Great suggestion bringing these ladies on.
Speaker 1:Absolutely great suggestion so, emma cat, thank you ever so much for your time. And Neil, great suggestion bringing these ladies on, absolutely great suggestion. So, emma Kat, thank you ever so much. Ladies, it's been a pleasure having you on here today, and yeah, thanks for your time.
Speaker 2:Good luck with your business Take care. Cheers bye. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe. Give us your comments and your Joseph. Please remember to subscribe. Give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.