Billy McLaughlin (Part 1 of 2)

World-class guitarist, composer and producer, Billy McLaughlin joins us in studio in a fascinating two part interview.

Transcript

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Thank you for tuning into the Kindness Chronicles. The guest that we had this week, Billy McLaughlin, was so fascinating that we decided to do it as a two-part program. This is part one of our interview with Billy McLaughlin, What's the deal with nobody leaving Voicemails anymore? All righty. Welcome to The Kindness Chronicles, where once again, we hope to inject the world with a dose of the Minnesota kindness that it desperately needs. Our 55-year-old intern, Jeff has been having some fun this week. He's, uh, he's back. He was in, uh, where are you in Colorado last week? Montana. Actually. Montana. It's all the same. Yeah, we drove, we drove, so we went through the Dakotas as well. Very nice. Well, welcome back Jeff. Steve Brown's in the studio. Hi, once again. We're, uh, we are taping on the night that Mr. Gorg is working at Canterbury, so I'm sure he's doing just fine. But, welcome fellas. We have a very special guest, a very famous guy. Super excited. I know, Jeff, you're really excited about our guests. We should just get right into it. I have a little intro, so I'll just kick it right off here. Thank you. So today on The Kindness Chronicles, we're joined in the studio by a musician whose story is as, as is an as inspiring as his music. Billy McLaughlin is an acoustic guitar innovator, famous for his tap style technique that redefined what one guitar can sound like. I first saw him play as a freshman at UMD in Duluth in the late eighties, and not long after that, his music hit the billboard top 10 and has taken him around the globe. But in 2001, a neurological condition robbed him of control over his fretting hand. Doctors told him to hang it up. Instead, Billy switched hands, teaching himself to play left-handed relearning his own songs. Note by note. In a world that often focuses on what divides us, Billy's story reminds us of what brings us together, determination, artistry, and an unshakeable human spirit. Live in our Madam Midi studio. Please welcome Billy McLaughlin. Woo. Welcome sir. Hello. Thank. Thanks for having me. I just have to compliment Jeff. He's so officious and so organized. for years we've been doing this podcast and it's literally, it's been this rinky dink thing and, and all of a sudden we've got this intern in here that's having fun with our soundboard. I would imagine that you use your iPhone for more than just a phone and emails. It, I do it. You probably do. It is a key to all. It's also a calculator. You know, it's pretty much a Swiss Army knife, uh, when it comes to me, so, okay. Enough about that, that it's a great intro. Yes. Billy. Billy, nice intro. Billy. I just have to say, I have been a fan of your for many years. You always, uh, seem to, to do a show at Chatauqua., It almost feels like it might be your home base. You do so many shows up there, but had the privilege of, following your career and the fact that you're in the, uh, basement studio is a big deal for me. So thank you for coming. Well, I'm really glad that somebody went to any of those chau shows. Well, here's, here's the thing about it. You know, we hear music on and off throughout the day in various situations to get in a really beautiful performing art center where people are. Instantly connected to what's coming from the artist, and then it becomes a participatory thing. That Chautauqua um, performing arts center has been a special spot for me, for sure. Well, I just have to paint a plug we recently built a 500 seat Jewel Box auditorium in South Bloomington at the Masonic Heritage Center, and uh, I've been told that acoustically it's one of the best. Are you familiar with it? I've played there 10 times. Have you there? Have you really? Of course, of course. He's played there. Why wasn't I invited? He everywhere supposed to be running the joints. You're, you're so busy that, that you didn't catch wind of it or see the so, so seriously you've played there 10 times. Yeah, I saw that probably 10 times. Oh my God. Now you better say something nice about it or, or Oh no, it's, tell'em what you really think of it. It's, it's fantastic. It's, it's pretty cool. Right. Again, again, for anyone who's doing. Music to not have to compete with, uh, you know, beer bottles, Cing Uhhuh in a, in a, in a bar setting. Yeah. We try and keep it classy. Well, you know, it's not easy for a musician, um, just starting out to, and, and it's no guarantee that this, that anyone is gonna get the opportunities that I've had to play beautiful theaters, um, all around the world really. And, um, and so the Masonic is, well, that makes my day. Yeah, there you go. It's been just, I just wish somebody would tell me what's going on in that space. Well, sidekick theaters got a lot going on in there. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know those guys? Yeah. Um, they, uh, trying to, Brian, uh, Brian and Tim. Yeah. Al yeah. Brian was stage managing, uh, I think he stage managed pretty much every show. No kidding. That I've done there and, and now it, um, I haven't been, been back in a while, but we would love to come back there. Well, let's go when the time, when the time is right. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about your group. Well, could we, I was, oh, I'm wondering if could Jeff. It's okay. I was just, just got a lot of questions, John. Let, let, I was thinking through this episode and how do we, uh, progress it forward and one of my favorite episodes when I started listening to the Kindness Chronicles, that's a good way to go do this, was the chronology of Steve Brown and his band Johnny Clueless. And so I started digging into your origins. You went to Washburn High School, and I would just, maybe you could take us through like your, your, your journey of musicianship from your family in Minneapolis and, and Washburn, and then how it led up to the 1988 performance when I saw you at UMD. I'd love to hear that. I'll, I'll try to keep it as short as I possibly can, but in a large family, nine kids. Oh wow. Older brothers and sisters playing music. Um, Irish family. Yeah. Irish family. Irish Catholic family. 50th and Lyndale area of South Minneapolis. Um, you know, hey, if you're in Minnesota and it's cold out and you don't want to go play hockey, man, you want to like, you, you learn to play music or something Sure. In, in the basement during these long winters. I mean, it, it's true. There's some just incredible musicians who have come from this part of the country, and I think that might have a little something to do with it. For sure. It did for me. So I'm trying to find my identity in a large family. Um, and the older brothers were so, you know, straight a, you know, super good musicians, took music theory and I, and I, I just was looking for something to make me feel better. And the guitar. Well, the piano wasn't so much, it didn't work out. The, um, the trumpet didn't work out and the drums didn't work out like three strikes. And you are a guitar player, right? Well, usually it's you're a drummer. Well, I, I didn't even, I got kicked off the, the drum and bugle court'cause I couldn't keep the beat. Oh no. Yeah. And so for me it was a, a way of, um, it was an, an instant connection. I've had a love affair with the guitar since I picked it up when I was 12, 13 years old. I had already bragged to try to get attention from girls that I knew how to play and I didn't know a thing about it, but actually started, um, getting after it, um, in seventh grade. And you find yourself, oh, there's an opportunity to play my guitar. Where in front of how many people at church on Sunday? Which my dad thought was the devil mass. Oh. Though he did not, guitars weren't supposed to building. Yeah. We call that disco church. Yeah. Well, back then it was, it was like folk. It was like Peter Paul and Mary Church. Yeah. You know, that's what it was. Yeah. But, but, but here's a critical thing. You know, you, the experience for any musician to start to play in ensemble forces you to, um, play in rhythm. It, it, it, um, it's the quickest way for you to improve your skills. Yeah. And to be able to, to relate to each other. You have to be able to come in together. It forces your technique to catch up to where the next chord is coming down in and with everybody. Yeah. And listening and the, and the joy of, of hearing it and, and going like, wow, you guys, we sound really good. So. I, so I'm already starting to play an ensemble by the summer between eighth and ninth grade. I was transitioning away from the Catholic school, but we were a bunch of the musician kids that we're all playing with. We started to jam in the driveway every afternoon. No kidding. That's fine. Going into ninth grade, that band, actually, I remember getting paid the first time I did a Sadie Hawkins dance at Holy Angels High School and made, oh my gosh. That's when my wife went to school and, and made 50 bucks when I was in ninth grade. Wow. I couldn't make$50 in a week chopping celery at Hong Kong cma, which was my other job. Was that with Paradox or another band? So this was the precursor to Paradox. So I get into, so I'm just leaving the junior high, getting into public high school. When I got to, uh, Washburn High School my sophomore year, there were so many great musicians that wanted. Um, I, I was aware of how many great musicians were there because I would go hear my older brothers and sisters play at the two night, sold out 1200 seats theater, uh, like the talent show. It was like America's Got Talent at Washburn and it was the wow, hugest, coolest thing. And in fact, I just was there with Jimmy Jam Fun. Who? Yeah. That he, did he go to Washbury? Yes, he did. Oh, wow. He just accepted his, uh. His honorary diploma because he left to pursue music after junior year. Now he and I didn't connect there, but I connected with the players that formed a group called Paradox. Um, unfortunately we didn't realize that there was a band much more established with exactly the same name, and everybody thought then, uh, they would come and hear us and say, where's we thought you were a metal band. Oh, geez. And we weren't. We were playing music. Our, our set list was probably one of the more eclectic for kids our age to be playing Steely Dan, Ricky Lee Jones Santana. Cool. Joan Armit trading. Yeah. That's not, that is not normal. Yeah. Earth. What was, what year was this? Okay, so I graduated high school in 1980. Okay. So we're talking about 70, 70, you know, starting there in 77 when Washburn won the state football championship for the last time. It was a lot of fun. And these older players. Already had the idea of, you know, let's start, you know, getting our equipment together. We're gonna go talk to the people at Marsh Productions and shown productions, get a booking agent. And we were playing high, well, it started with just high school dances at first. And I kept telling my parents all through high school that I was playing at a, at a high school dance, we were playing clubs. Man, you got in Yeah. Underage, but they the end under age. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to do that at UMD. Right. So it comes to a point where, you know, you start getting all the stuff in the mail from the different colleges. What are you gonna do? And I, I was like, you know, I really didn't wanna get super academic about music. Mm-hmm. I, I was smart enough, I took a music theory course that was offered, um, at, at zero hour at, at the school. It was like a At Washburn? Yes. Wow. At Washburn. And it saved my tail. Because I made the decision to, to pursue a guitar department that was doing more than just classical. Uh, the University of Minnesota at the time only had a classical, uh, degree that you could pursue. Yeah. And I, I, I didn't grow up up with that music. I didn't read music very well. This program was, um, called Studio Guitar, meaning you might get a call because you live in la you're a great guitar player who can read, who can play a little bit, bit of bluegrass, some jazz, some rock and roll. It was a very open-minded program at USC. Right. At USC, right. Yeah. So I, I went out to la um, at the end of senior year, um, paradox, some of the older guys had already transitioned into college and were moving to different parts of the country. And the band was, had a fantastic run, um, of about three years. And then it, it was. Time to make a decision again. Like, what are you gonna do with, with, with college? And I, I thought, you know, if I love music this much, I better learn how to, I gotta learn how it works, you know? Mm-hmm. I want to learn about composition, I wanna understand how to communicate with every person in the orchestra. And I'm not doing that now. I'm just, I'm, I'm like, you know, self-teaching, um, learning Carlos Santana guitar solos by Wow. Like year. Yeah. Yeah. Just by listening. And so I, I, I ended up in a great spot at UFC for four years, I'd say. And the, yeah, the, did, did the faculty influence me as much as the, my fellow classmates? I, I would say it's really interesting. If you find a good program, you just might learn as much, if not more from the people that you're in school with and collaborating with. Um, just, uh, was the. Tuition as insane at USC as it is today? Uh, for the time, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so, so USC um, offered, um, of the two programs that I was, uh, uh, accepted to. Um, the other one was where Pat Metheny, um, uh, graduated from in Coral Gables from University of Miami. Uscs, uh, um, financial aid package was, was better. Oh wow. For me. And I learned quickly that I needed to get the, the home phone number of the financial aid lady, which somehow I managed, I Oh, Jesus was calling her at home saying, you know what? I'm a straight A student and I can't come back here if you guys don't find a way to keep me here. And, and SC was, was pretty good to me. I mean, I, I graduated with a big student loan like a lot of people do, but. Um, the California grant system, um, was something that I was able to tap into.'cause I, I just moved out there. I got my driver's license out there. Oh, cool. And once you do that, you're part of it. Oh, there you go. You qualify for some Cal uh, state aid was very helpful trying to get through. So I'm gonna do my best to convey, since we don't have music here, but what it was like to hear some of your compositions when I first heard you at UMD, because you had a song called Helm's Place, and I have a kind of an uncanny memory. Yeah. But you had really good stories to go along with each of these songs and Helm's Place, if I remember correctly, you were living, that's a song by the way. And you'll, I'll let you describe what, how you, what inspired you to write it, because it's about the road you were on, but weren't you living with a lady, uh, for three years in her basement or ceiling or attic? I, I don't, go ahead. Whoa. So living on campus was really a drag. I didn't, I I didn't like it. I, I couldn't sleep. The dorms were too noisy. It's like I and I, I had an opportunity, I found a, a, a little upstairs, kind of a mini apartment in a, in a, uh, an elderly, I would call her. She was in her seventies. Um, uh, Norma, uh, Hart Sock, um, rented me the upstairs of her place for 90 bucks a month. Wow. And this is just unheard of. It was so lucky. Was this in 1907? No, no. It, it was you guys, it was unbelievable. She was, you know how I met her through one of the guitar buddies who had the place before me and got married and moved out, and I was lucky enough to inherit this situation. Wow. But the thing about the house on Helm's Place. The Helm's Bakery is like the master bread, uh, or wonder bread of, of the LA area. Helm's Bakery is a big deal. So Helm's Place named after the bakery is a little street that cut off of Robertson Boulevard, um, right at the I 10 Santa Monica Freeway. And her house was the last house on the left side of the road as you drove down. Um, that was closest to the guardrail and there were no sound barriers. Oh God. And so, you know, luckily growing up in South Minneapolis, I got used to the airplanes going on. Sure, sure. You can get used to that. There's like at a point you don't notice it anymore. Yeah. But um, when I came, when I moved back to Minnesota after, uh, trying to make it out there for a while, I couldn't sleep at night'cause it was too quiet. It was just too quiet. You know, at first I couldn't sleep at night'cause it was too loud. Then I realized I needed to hear some of that and so I started. Experimenting with different things on the guitar that reminded me of that. Mm-hmm. That constantly, you know, like those movies that are kind of sped up and everything's like cruising really fast, you know? Yeah. It's like I was trying to come up with something that, that felt like it sounded I lived there. Well, your, your songs tell stories and that's what's so cool about it. I remember another guitar player I, I was jamming with, introduced you to him, introduced him to you through the CDs, and the first thing he said is, these compositions are amazing. His name was, was Matt Mathiasson. I Good guitar player up in Forest Lake. But, um, that, and then there was a, so you, you, we'll, I wanted to just let everyone know if it's okay, we'll post links to these songs after in social media so people can find Helm's Place, for example. Sure. Um, another one and, and, and it kind of ties into what we'll get to later in the story, but a cool story you shared was the song called Rob Me. Oh man. Yeah. Do do Dolly. There's there a story there. Yeah. So that's a band, that's a, that's a, a piece that has actual words that tell, tell the story of what happened. So I found myself after graduating college, um, not really wanting to come back to Minnesota right away until I had something to, you know, kind of say like, I'd accomplished something. You know what I mean? It's like I'm not quite ready to, you know, not that I was digging La Man LA is a very, you, you know, it's, you can be completely anonymous there. It's, it's really easy to do that. It's also to easy to not feel connected to much of anything. Mm-hmm. So, anyhow, I found myself in a situation where, um, Norma's, uh. Kids packed her up and moved her off to a care facility, which she needed, um, a memory care thing situation, but they didn't tell me. And I had come home to Minnesota for a few months in the summer and I got back no. And all my stuff was on the, in the yard. Oh no. They had just, they had just moved her like the couple of days. It was weird timing. And, and here I am, I got like absolutely nowhere to live. So I was, uh, in a tough spot. I was looking for a place to live. I actually masqueraded for about a year as a USC student, took over another kid's lease and avoided the, the, the, um, person who ran the building Yeah. At all costs. The ra ra Yeah. The right, the ra, um, was, she was very suspicious of me, but I carried a backpack and I made it look like I was. Gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah. So it, so there's this point after college, I'm, I'm still trying to make it. And, and then the deal fell apart at the dorm and I was actually living in my car. And luckily I had a few buddies where I could couch surf for a while, but, you know, I can't really walk into an apartment with my amp and my three guitars. And so I was, kept everything like under a blanket in my little Volkswagen station wagon that I had and was couch surfing in a tough part of town. And, and all the, everything was stolen. Oh, no. Yeah. And it was interesting though. It was my electric guitars. I was really playing archtop, um, Chet Atkins style playing at that time. Okay. And, and or trying to sound like Carlos Santana or Robin Ford or, yeah, I was, I was heading in so big hollow body guitars, um, yeah. Bigger, or even like a 3 35, I think at that time I didn't have a 3 35 and I had, uh, a Les Paul and a, and a beautiful Gretch Superchat. Yeah. And all stolen. Yeah. Well, it was all those are nice guitar nerd nerds talking about guitars. Those are nice guitars. Yeah. Expensive guitars too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were the only guitars that I had really, um, um, well, actually, my, I did have an Epiphone acoustic that was part of that trio, and that was gone as well. Oh, geez. So, but here's the odd thing, you guys, this is a terrible thing that happened and it was really shocking and I was, uh, you know, embarrassed that I, I put myself in that situation where I could, you know, uh, be so vulnerable. Mm-hmm. But. What came of it, and this is a thing that has recurred several times in my life. So it's helped me, it helps me to this day to remember that sometimes the worst thing that ever happened to you might end up being one of the greatest things that ever happened to you. So here's what happened next. I caught wind of, uh, a teaching position. Um, so I would have some income and, but they needed an acoustic guitar teacher, okay? Mm-hmm. So the first guitar that I get after I've been devoted to the electric guitar for the last seven, eight years of my life. Is an acoustic guitar. And I never would've gotten that guitar had it not been for that teaching job. Wow. Hmm. That, and that and that led interestingly, within a few weeks to a, a, a gig right up on La Lankershim across from the MCA, uh, record tower with a another acoustic. He needed a, a duo partner On what? On acoustic guitar. I hadn't really spent any time. So you weren't forcing yourself to do a lot of acoustic. You had one, but you were doing a lot of electric. Yes, exactly. So this, wow. So the theft, so the song Robbed Me is, is about that experience and, um, you know, uh, it, but it, it became a pivot point for me, right. Like a, something that went wrong, actually put me in a new direction. That is what I'm known for today, is playing acoustic guitar. Sot it's bizarre. You weren't doing the tapping by No. That led you to the tapping technique that you've become known for. W Yeah. I, I, I, well, I think the neurological disorder is really ultimately what led Well, that's his second act. Oh, he did it before he, he was Oh, you were doing it before? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I had, I had been aware of Michael Hedges and his groundbreaking, unorthodox technique, and I was entranced by him and John Reborn, um, uh, great. Stanley Jordan did that too, as a jazz guitar player. Right. He did a lot of Yes. Something like that. Yeah. But he, so the weird thing about that is Stanley is playing, um, when he, so he's playing right-handed. Right. And he, he's playing with like both hands up over the top or some, sometimes he'll be this way, but more than anything, he's got both hands up. Like he, like it's a keyboard or something. Like it's a keyboard. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I, I did get to open for him a couple years ago. Cool. It was mind blowing to be around. Yeah. Another hero of, of mine, but Okay. Yeah. So this weird thing that happened like a, a fork in the road and I, I took it. It not having the electric guitar distraction. Let me get back in touch with the instrument that I first started on, which was an acoustic guitar on the front porch swing, you know, growing up as a kid and going like, wow, man, this is like the coolest thing to be that close to where the sound comes out. Yeah. And to making the sound yourself generates the sound as opposed to having an app have to do it. Yeah. Right, right. Exactly. So, so it was like a full circle moment for me to come back to acoustic guitar and, and I immediately started exploring Altered Tunings because of Michael Hedges. Mm-hmm. I really loved his music, and I thought, you know, I've been heading in this direction. I bet I, I bet I could get signed to his record label. So I started writing all this stuff. I actually decided to move back to Minnesota. At that point. I was like. It. I didn't move back right after the, the, the robbery. I, I, I wanted to kind of make good on what I was doing out there, but I found my way back. I'm very happy that I, I came back in late 86. Um, so I was out in LA for, for six, um, you know, long years. Okay. And, um, and at, at, at the point I got back, I was just full of so many ideas of what to do with the acoustic guitar and what happens when you put a pickup in it and put some amplification behind the notes and the, and the strings start to quiver a little bit on their own. And it's, it becomes like this breathing, not exactly a dragon or anything. It, it, it's true though, when you turn it on and you're in a live performance, it's just like, it just fills the room and it's like, oh, this is gonna be so cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I had fun being probably the loudest of the acoustic guitar players around other than Michael, because I just, you know, I was used to playing in bands and now playing by yourself, you still wanna fill up the room, you know? Mm-hmm. That led to, uh, you know, making recordings demo. I, I got rejected by Windham Hill, like Oh. Immediately, because they said, well, we already have Michael Hedge. Yeah. We, we, we have one of those. Yeah. Okay. So I said, well, I'm not waiting around for anyone to give me permission to do this. I'm gonna, I'm, I, I give myself permission to start recording, making my own records. And, um, so at this point, I'm living above the music store in White Bear Lake, uh, above Evan's Music. And, um, I connected with Dale Goulette Oh, yeah. From Limited Warranty. He's passed on now. Yeah, I know Dale. So Dale, um, engineered and recorded my first, uh, project, which was kind of a mix of acoustic guitar pieces. Yeah. What was the, and his company. Um, he was in limited warranty. Oh, I know that. But, but he, he called it Johnny Audio, but then he was with Wow. And Flutter. Wow. And Flutter. Yeah. Another limited warranty guy. Jerry. Jerry, Jerry Bruski. Yeah. Good memory. Yes. I have a funny connection to those guys. Uh, back in, it had to have been like 86 or 87 when limited warranty was really taken off. Yeah. They won Star search. They won Star Search now, season one. So I was out at the, at Canterbury hanging out, betting on horses. And Jerry Brunskill was, uh, a horse racing guy. Oh, okay. And I recognized him. And, you know, that many guys at the, at, you know, I was a limited warranty nerd. I loved Limited warranty. Yeah. They were great. And you saw'em at the Smoke Free Generation concert. IWI was a, I was like a bouncer at the Smoke Free Generation concert. Well, it was a standing in front of the stage. Never been so hot. In my life. There was no air conditioning at the Metrodome at that time. Target rich environment though. But I just, that's fun that you, that Dale. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it, it was, um, I think for an artist doing original music, you, you kind of have to get over the perfectionism issue and none of my recordings have ever been quote unquote perfect. But each one has led to the next Yeah. Thing. It's growth, right? Yeah, exactly. And so some of the players who were on the album that, again, it was half acoustic guitar music, I was gigging with the, um, the other half of the band, which is, um, a lot of great players from the, the north side. They were, and, and what would happen is when the band would go on break, you know, somebody would say, Hey, play that acoustic guitar stuff that you've been doing. And so I started playing those pieces in, in clubs and people were really reacting to it in a positive way. And the drummer from that project, which was like an Andre Simone, uh, CVS project called the Girls the Drummer, Kirk Johnson, who I spent a whole lot of time, I loved the man so much. Um, um, the drummer in that group said, we gotta, we gotta start playing this stuff out. And it was a UMD guy, and this ties into you, sir. Okay. This is crazy. So I've got this acoustic guitar music that I'm, I'm, I'm wanting to play. I want, I've got these great musicians that none of my friends even know that I'm working with. What am I gonna do? And I realized at that point I was teaching guitar in White Bear Lake. I wasn't living my dream, I was teaching. Like, uh, in preparation to be able to buy the equipment and eventually the van that we needed to go around to the colleges. But I, before playing any colleges, I'm, I'm in my apartment in White Bear Lake and I go, you know, I'm, I'm just a guitar teacher. I'm not a concert artist. How do I solve this? And the next day I called O'Shaughnessy Auditorium at St. Kate's, where I used to go see Michael Johnson every year. Love Michael Johnson. Oh, I, yeah, I miss him so much. Um. And because I idolized him so much, I said, I wanna play O'Shaughnessy Auditorium. What's it gonna cost? And I had just gotten my first credit card that had a$2,500 limit. Oh boy. And get this, you guys, I rented O'Shaughnessy Auditorium with that credit card and it was 2,500 bucks. I maxed it out. I worked with a great guy, Mike Graph, who's still in the performing arts scene here in the twins. Uh, he's up in Fergus at the performing arts center up there. But, um, a friend of mine was running a, a one of those spotlight deals. Uh, Dave Del had a searchlight company mm-hmm. That he, and so he pulled up the lights the night of the show. Really? I sold, I sold 500 tickets for, for$10. Awesome. And I was, there you go. And well, and one of the ways you, you, the smart thing you do is you get about 17 different artists to be in the band. You know, so they've invite all their friends to Sure. Yep. Makes sense. So my, my first concert. I was, I had a student who was working for the local cable over here on County F, and he said, would you want someone to shoot video at that concert group? W Cable? Yes. Yeah. Or whatever they're called. Yeah. Group W, they used to be called Group Up Cable. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Okay. So he's a 16-year-old kid. I was never forget him, John Schroeder. And, and I said, sure, I'd love to have a four camera shoot. He says, I can get him to do it. We're always looking for something to do. Yeah. And so I get a four camera shoot of my very first concert. Wow. And interestingly, in promoting the concert, I forced myself to go down to Uptown and at the corner of Lake in Hennepin, and I was handing out these little cards and a fellow. Who you might know. Okay. Do you remember Scott Ness? No. Okay. He was a little older than you maybe. Okay. You might've been behind him. So this happened in April or May, excuse me, may of 1987. Okay. Was the, the, the concert was on Sink of the Mile on 1987. Well, a week before that, I had a guy that I handed the card. He goes, well, what do you do? I do guitar and I got a really cool band. He goes, well, I book all the music up at UMD. Oh, awesome. So he was with Kirby Program Board. He was with Sally Kain. Yeah. Yeah. I think I met Sally when our band played. Yeah. Yep. Just by chance he was walking by and you gave him a card. Yes. It's crazy. Yeah, it is utterly crazy. Because he said in addition to that, he said. He said, well, you got any video? And I go, I'm gonna get some video from, I'm gonna, he said, that's how we do it. Now you gotta have a video or, or Kirby won't book you. Okay. Yeah. So the, again, this crazy idea that I would, you know, get the ball rolling and some things would start to kind of add up. So I come away from that concert with a digital recording of the band. So I had a cassette available. Yeah. This is, this is before the, the project with Dale actually. Okay. Um, where I really kind of went into the, the, the CD world. I was the first Minnesota artist who had a independent cd, only because I knew somebody that worked at Denon and knew the guys in Georgia and they weren't doing short runs. When CD technology came out. If you didn't order 10,000, they wouldn't take you. Okay. I got a thousand of my first CD from Dale's place. But to finish the story about O'Shaughnessy, I get a, a, a recording and a video. And Scott, I sent it, I followed up with him in September and he said, we have to get you hooked up with the National College Circuit and naca naca. Yeah. That's where, you know, Kevin Day. So I, I'm booking, I, I go do the Wisconsin, um, showcase uhhuh, which was its own region at the time. Yep. And I walked out of there with 30, I was like the hot, the hot thing with my quartet and my acoustic guitar stuff, and I didn't have time to do the contracts. I mean, could barely keep up. Yeah. And I had met Kevin at the Upper Midwest Yep. Deal. And him and Dan Butner and me were hanging out like crazy. You know, like Kevin Daley's come up several times in this podcast. Yeah. He was, he was our mutual booking agent. Yeah. Uh, at a certain point. And, uh, he's the guy that introduced Jen Gasner to Dave Matthews Band. So he's a listener. He's, he's connected with all kinds of people already. But anyway, he's a, he's a good friend of mine too. Good guy. Yeah. So I, I mean, again, these coincidences, if you pay attention to what's going on around you, if you take slow down enough to kind of see what's happening. Just real quick, knack, is that like the national something of Campus Activities Association for campus activities? I was entertainer job. How about that? Entertainer of the year three times. I know, like 2010 you were in the Hall of Fame or something. Yeah. Yep, yep. So look at that. Well, how about you Johnny? Clueless? Are you in the NCA Hall of Fame? I'm not in the Hall of Fame by any, but we did play a lot of NCA shows. Oh, what's great about NCA's, you go and showcase to this whole area, this whole regional colleges, like he was saying, and then they, all these different schools are there. They see you and they go, oh yeah, we like, we like them. And if you work with a new college, they can get a better rate on you. So you you basically block booking. Yeah. Yeah. You block book you, so you book. A, a little tour with a couple college shows and then you do club warmup shows around. That's how you, that's how touring worked for us at least. Yeah, yeah. Yep. You anchor your shows'cause you get hotel rooms. Yep. And you get paid better than a, a$50 warmup for somebody. Yeah. And so it's, it's a nice way to, to go about that in about half of the time. They would put you in the good theater too. You'd be in the performing. I mean, I did a lot of, of like student union. Yeah. I'll never forget playing the wrath skill in Madison. If anybody, my daughter goes to Madison listening and knows what the wrath skill. Yeah, I think we might have played there too. Oh yeah, I bet you did. Um. You know, and that's just a noisy, um, student union bar. Yeah. They were still selling beer on campus back then, you know, the good old days. Yeah. Yeah. So we were in the, you were in the Kirby Ballroom. And so here's my little artifact from that. It, you didn't even have cd d I'm holding up a, a CD from 1989. Proton discs, inhale pink. And I remember asked, I specifically remember asking, who is this guy and why does he have two CDs? Because the one em was inhale pink and Exhale blue. And she's like, I think the, the inhale pink is his solo stuff and he's got a bigger band too. It was real vague. Yeah. So I didn't know what I was about, but there was a big long line and Kirby program. They had decked it out. It was really nice. It was a nice quiet environment. And I, and I'll let you, um, talk, but there you had another song that you debuted, I think if I remember this correctly, bows and arrows. And I wanted to ask you about. Some of us are Bose. Yeah.'cause you, I know that song. You had a, it's a great story along with that. So, any comments or, well, Jeff, we're, we're leading up to Jeff's hyperventilating, the picture of young Jeff in college. So excited doing the, the Chris Farley thing again. Meeting, meeting Billy in D Do you remember when he say song? Bows and arrows? Remember that? That was great. What I, what I do remember is that I always did stuff backwards, like putting out two CDs on the same day. One of them called Inhale Pink, which was me, solo guitar. Just one pink dot on a black cover. And exhale blue. Five blue dots'cause five members in the band on an all black cover and two artists. Completely. Yeah. Well, and, and it could be argued and there were a lot of, you know, management people saying, bill, you gotta pick one or the other. Mm-hmm. You know, there's no way you can be doing both. And I just said, sorry, I'm. I'm not letting you give me permission. Yeah, you're keeping your options open too. It's good. I'm, I'm gonna give myself permission to do this kind of thing, but, um, we would always, we, I would write something and we'd play it and get feedback from the audience before we ever went into the studio. Oh. And that's could be backwards too. Totally. You're do it though. Supposed you're supposed to go record it in the studio and then leak it out to the radio, you know, and then chase it. Um, and, and I, it's like how a comedian works. They test out their stuff. Yeah. And if they get laughs then they're gonna, that that record it. That's right. That's been the theme here. I've been noticing with a lot of different things. It's like, go out and test it. Mark Sharon Brock talked about that. And then the Marx Brothers used to, you know, tweet the line or whatever, and then they learned what was funny and then they'd make the movie. Right. Can, can we talk about your, you had a, a, an ailment that came upon you mm-hmm. And it sort of changed the way that you conducted yourself, how you played your music. What, what was that like? Um, so. I, I did pursue an opportunity that really focused me in on acoustic guitar playing in the midst of doing these, you know, putting out, so I, I, I do inhale Pink Solo XL Blue Band. I did the Archery of Guitar Solo, the Bow and the Arrow album with the band, and mm-hmm. At that point, I, I was married and really enjoying everything about the future of having kids and everything else. Mar married into a situation with kids and an opportunity came along from Narta Records. I, I knew that I didn't take rejection very well, and I just thought, you know what, if I do my job and I sell enough CDs on my own, someone's gonna catch wind of it. Mm-hmm. And they called me Wow. And said, we want you on our, on our label. And I said, am. Am I gonna do just guitar? They said, well, that's negotiation. But yeah, pretty much we want you to do your instrumental guitar and here's what it looks like and here's what we would do to get you out there. And I'd already had a lot of touring experience on the college market like you did Steve. And, um, so I knew how to get around the country, but, and I thought, you know, I have been doing this a long time on my own. Maybe it's time to, to sign with a label. And, and it was through the releases I did on Ada that got internationally distributed that really the reputation that I still enjoy now as a upper tier, um, acoustic guitar player and composer came from, from those, those albums. Um, and um, and you toured all over the world? Not quite yet, but all over the country, absolutely. Oh, not yet. But I mean, ultimately you ended up playing in Japan, Europe. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, so I, I do the first album with Ada and it goes really well. Finger Dams, right? Yep. Border, border Borders. And, uh, Barnes and Noble were both cranking product like you couldn't believe really? I, I mean, yeah. I played the, I played the borders at the bo the base of Tower two in, in, at the World Trade Center, you know, really? And, and the next guy coming on to sing after me was Tony Bennett. Oh, my was doing people would do book, they would do, yeah. Would high, high visibility spots like that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So, um, so I, the first album goes great. I record the second album, and on the way to the photo shoot, get this on the way to the photo shoot for my second album. I've got my, the leather pants on, I've got the leather boots on. It's as you would, it's, it's February and it's kinda sleeting out. And I had a little one, my youngest blaze in, in a, you know, in the car seat, you know, he's a little, little guy. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe, maybe he was two. And I pull up in front of my parents'cause I'm gonna have them watch him while I'm at the shoot. Raha had flown some photographer in from New York or whatever. And so I'm, I'm getting out of the car and it's, whoa. It's kind of slippery here. And I reach in to get him. Oh no. And, and as I'm lifting him up in the air, his boot kind of catches on the little, you know, seatbelt deal. And I started going backwards. Oh no, no. And I tucked and rolled and kept him from hitting. But when I hit the, the ice, it was just pure ice on the sidewalk and my hand, um, jutted into a, a, a large block of ice. And I, oh shit. I immediately, oh no. Dislocated my ring and middle finger and. I, I, I made sure he was okay. And I looked at him and I go, that's not right. And I pulled him, I pulled them. They were, they were exactly backward. Like they were going 90 degree angle. Wrong way. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm late now for the photo shoot and oh God. I'm like, you know what? I think I'm going to the er. Just, let's get this checked out, man. This is like, this is my livelihood. Yeah. So I did get, make it to the photo shoot and my, my manager at the time was a guy outta Nashville, and at the er he slipped me some little pill. He goes, you'll be feeling fine in about a half an hour. I don't know what the hell it was, but they weren't giving me anything. It's better finger pills. Yeah. Well, well, the ER doc said we're gonna need to cut that wedding ring off. Oh, oh boy. Because you're gonna be swollen up. And I, I wouldn't let'em do it. And I, and I took the um, photo. You can see it on the cover of an, uh, my second album was called Out of Hand Weird. Uh, you can see how swollen my ring finger is on my left hand, and I'm, I'm posing with the guitar and trying to move, like faking and them in plain, but it was excruciating. Absolutely. And I'm trying to look happy and all this. Right. And the, the leather pants did look pretty good, but, but so Kev Kg would be excited to, to, to get to where we're headed here. Um, is that I did pt, um, and was back to kinda moving pretty well. The label was anxious to get me back out on the road. I was a, I was anxious to get on the road, man. This was the coolest record, one of the coolest records I've ever made, which basically was me and Princess drummer Kirk Johnson, um, playing. Uh, music ahead of its, it was acoustic guitar music still ahead of its time kind of today. Um, so I, I'm out on a, I do a 50 city tour. I think I was out with Adrian leg on that one and tucking Patty, and then I was home for a little while and, you know, like my, my hand during those tours, it just always felt like outta balance. But I was able to keep it together through the second 50 city tour. And then I, I had a couple of buddies say, man, if your hand's feeling weird, you know, you should just take some time off. And I did. And three months later, I, not, maybe not three months, it was maybe two months later, I went to pick up my guitar and start to play some stuff. And I, my pinky and third finger had curled up underneath the neck. And I'm like, well, this is fing. That's not good. This is completely weird. What is going scary on? I couldn't play any of my, I mean, I'm, I'm a university educated guitarist. You can play his scales at 16th. No. At 140 beats a minute. You know, like just rip everything. Mm-hmm. And here I'm going like, I can't even play my own songs. And that's it for part one of our interview with Billy McLaughlin. Tune in to part two later this week. And off we go.