Ep. 205 - Behind the Whistle: A Big10 Referee's Journey

In this episode, the hosts reflect on KG’s father’s memorial and the support from family, friends, and organizations, then share details for the July 12 Semper Fi Flo hole-in-one challenge fundraiser at Loggers Trail Golf Course in Stillwater. 

The conversation features special guest Jeff Meslow, a 25-year NCAA football official and 10-year Big Ten line judge, who describes his path from starting as a college freshman to working major rivalry games and the Big Ten Championship, balancing officiating with a full-time job, and the behind-the-scenes production of televised games. 

Meslow discusses officiating pressures, communication with coaches, controversial calls like holding, replay review via the Big Ten command center, fan behavior, and memorable human moments including Iowa’s Children’s Hospital wave, a MN Gophers moment of kindness and more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:21

You're listening to the number two kindness podcast in the world, according to FeedSpot.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome to the kindness chronicles, where once again we hope to inject the world with the dose of the minutes of the kindness that it desperately needs. We are in the basement studio. Steve Brown is back with us. Hi, Steve.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi, welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

We got Jeff Hoffmental back there. Our producer. KG is uh you're gonna be celebrating a 21st birthday with uh crossover Will, as for Anderson as I understand it.

SPEAKER_06 0:55

Yeah, nephew Will turned 21, so uh big birthday dinner tonight. Looking forward to seeing the young man and send him off into the wilderness. The trouble that he might get into this week uh with that whole schedule, but that's part of the fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah, I'm sure Will has never had a cocktail. Uh he's waiting until his 21st birthday, but we're not. And then we have a special guest, a uh part of a legendary Matamidi family. That's for you, Michael Dempsey. You gotta talk Matamidi at least once. Jeff Meslow. We're gonna get to him in a second. But first, KG, uh, we celebrated the life of your dad last week, and just your reflection on uh on how that experience was for you and your family.

SPEAKER_06 1:37

Well, John, we just talked about this uh, I don't know, a little over a year ago, going through that with uh with your dad. And you know, when you get into that situation, you you know what's common. Uh my dad was an assisted living for almost two years and had dementia, and so you think you're ready for it, but you really never are ready to think about your dad. What I will say is this, um, we really put a lot of work into making sure that Thursday went um the way he would have liked it. And I'm gonna tell you right now, um the whole family had their part in it. Um my mom talking to these last couple days was so happy with the way things went. And LCK famous that I would have been so enormously proud of the effort we put in and the way it went. And uh, you guys were all there. Uh meant a lot to me and to our family, and um it was uh it was a beautiful, beautiful day. Um yeah, it's um it's bittersweet. So yeah, I I appreciate you bringing it up. Um it's um it's gonna be something we remember uh for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

It was a lovely event. I was overwhelmed with how many people were there. Um, you know, the fact that there were a number of people from the Minnesota Wild Organization from Canterbury Park, Marcus Fellino snuck in, and uh let's just say that guy is shockingly handsome. My goodness.

SPEAKER_06 2:58

Yeah, it's it's a tough, it's a tough act to follow. I I my sisters and I were up at the front of the church and and we were greeting people as they came in, and all of a sudden I get this tap on my shoulder, and Kelly's like, Kevin, I think Marcus Fluma's here. I'm like, Kelly, Marcus Falino's not here. And she goes, No, he is here, and you need to introduce me. I said, Hey, listen here. I said, This is past funeral. Just keep your past on.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Oh, hey, whoa. This is the kindness chronicles. We don't go there. No, it was it was lovely to see, you know, the fact that somebody like that uh you know would take the time to honor your dad. Says a lot about his friendship with you, and I just thought it was very cool. Your uh eulogy was absolutely fantastic. Uh the nine holes. Uh it was it was beautiful. It almost felt a little bit like Eric Church's Six Strings. We weren't sure if maybe you were inspired by the Six Strings.

SPEAKER_06 3:57

Oh God, Johnny, you make me smile. But I you know what? The um just the participation, like the the people that were there. You mentioned the wild and canterbury, and I'll mention um all the guys that serve in the Navy with my dad. There were a handful of guys that I met at Mancini's that were in the actual Navy reserves with him way back in the 50s, and then um, and then seeing the guys that that he went to school with at Greeton, uh that graduated in 57, and then of course all the people from Fairball were he was the golf role for four decades. It it really was everything we hoped it would be, and so that makes you feel really good.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And got to meet uh grandson Leo, that was super fun. Handsome lad, of course, strong gene pool, strong bloodlines. Um the food at Mancini's. Oh my gosh. Yeah, they they killed it.

SPEAKER_06 4:51

That that bread, and for our listeners, if you if you haven't been to Mancini's, do yourself a favor because the steaks are incredible, but the bread you get before, I'm telling you, the garlic bread there is best in class, and those guys did such a job uh putting that together for us. So, yeah, kudos to Man C's. I want to give them a little love here.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

It was a very lovely tribute to your dad. And uh, I know that your uh some of the GNO girls uh got together and uh bought a uh a nameplate for one of the seats in the new Coliseum honoring uh Grandpa Ken. Uh what did it say? Something about state fair days and hockey nights. I just thought that that was uh a perfect way to uh to recognize Ken Gord, the legendary golfer legendary dad.

SPEAKER_06 5:40

I got that picture from my sister who was with my mom, and my mom, of course, burst into tears, and when I got the picture, I burst into tears. Um State Fair was something he looked forward to every year, and when we walked by the Coliseum, he would always remark about back in the day watching uh our games at St. Thomas Fair, and then of course, White Bear Hill Murray. You know, he was uh he was a Eastside St. Paul guy, so we'd always go down um all those years when I was in high school, when I was in college and beyond, to see the Hill Murray White Bear Lake section final, which almost always took place in that building. So that one hit hit me right in the heart. Uh what a nice gesture.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

And the good news is is Hill Murray won the majority of those games. Well, we're moving on from that. Um so, Michael, there's uh Hill Murray.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

We got Hill Murray in mind I mentioned. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

We got it in. So uh St. Thomas, what can we say about St. Thomas? We're not gonna go there today. How about Donut Hut? Don't we'll save Donut Hut. It was National Donut Day on uh Saturday. I heard that. Yeah, I participated. I didn't take part. Um our friend Crafty Karen KG called and uh asked if we would promote an event that she has coming up on July not a craft, just pay attention. Well, that's crafty. July 12th is the uh second annual Semper Fi Flow. If you recall, we had some folks on from Semper Fi Flow. Uh it is July 12th from 11 a.m. to 8 p.m. at Loggers Trail Golf Course in Stillwater. It's not a typical golf tournament, it's a hole-in-one challenge. Participants reserve a 30-minute driving range time slot for your chance at a hole in one and fabulous prizes worth $500 plus, all for only $25. There will also be a putting contest, chipping contests, and other fun games and challenges all day. And a band, uh, Mark Joseph and the American Soul will be playing on the patio from 3 until 6 p.m. So July 12th. Yep, July 12th at Logger's Trail in Stillwater to raise some money for Semper Five Flow. That's nice. Yeah. Remember that.

SPEAKER_06 7:45

That's a cool idea to do something outside the box like that. And everybody dreams of having a chance at a hole in one and to give yourself a window of time like that where you can go to the range and just keep taking a swing. That that's a fantastic way to do things.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

I think sitting there for 30 minutes trying to get a hole in one would be like a torture chamber, but that's just me. Speaking of golf, one week ago today, I was in a foursome following our guest, Jeff Meslow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

And uh what that was just a weird chance.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

That was just a weird chance.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

We've been working on Jeff for quite a while, and just by chance, last week you had a golf game.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, and on one occasion, we it was a blind shot, and my son Jack hits the ball farther than the rest of us do. And uh he sent one zooming past Jeff. I'm happy that it didn't hit you because it would have been a very boring show today. But Steve, why don't you introduce our guest, uh Jeff Meslow?

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Or Jeff's just hanging here, kind of not understanding what he's into here. Today on the Kindness Chronicles, we're stepping into one of the loudest, most emotional, and pressure-packed environments in America college football. Our guest is an old friend, uh childhood. We played football together. Um, we've I've been in touch with him all through high school. You played football? I did, don't worry about it. Jeff is a seasoned 25-year NCAA college ref college football referee. His season with uh this will be his tenth year, right, with the Big Ten. Yes, yes. That's exciting. He's had a front row seat to everything from massive rivalries and wild fan bases to high pressure coaches, game-changing calls, and unforgettable moments on the field. But today we're we're a little less interested in the flags and the instant replay, and more interested in the human side of the game, right? This is the kindness chronicles. We want to hear about leadership, sportsmanship, respect under pressure, and those surprising moments of kindness that most fans never get to see. Uh Jeff Mesla, welcome to the kindness chronicles.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Thank you, fellas. I will do my best to live up to that. And it is uh it is awesome to be here. It has been a bit of a journey. You don't see officials interviewed often. I think maybe that's either because people aren't interested, or I think it's more likely because it's pretty sensitive issues.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

So and that was really interesting. So tell us about the process. Jeff and I have we've been trying to work on this for a while, and he had it's pretty serious about getting approvals. Tell tell these guys a little bit about what you were telling me why that the case is.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

It is certainly. And and I know you talked to my brother as well, as he is he's entering his 15th year in the NFL this fall. Crazy. Um, you know, there are certain things that I can't talk about. Yeah, you can't get a specific coach or a specific team for sure, and they want me to stay away from, but I do think that there's a concerted effort from I know the Big Ten when they got back to me and approved this to come on, they wanted it to be now this time of year in June. Uh to really try to shed some light first on the avocation of officiating, but also to your point, the human side of it and really what goes on behind the scenes, what our interaction and what our connection with the coaches is truly like. Um, which I think is very different, probably than what comes off on TV sometimes. So uh it's a pleasure to be here. KG, I do want to um give you my condolences. My dad, who I think might come up on this conversation, is 91 here in a couple of weeks, and he's a giant in my life, so I certainly understand what you've been through. And um yeah, I I I thought the the the approval from the Big Ten might be the biggest hurdle, but when Schweitz son fired a ball past my head a week ago, I said, John, you couldn't just said you decided not to have me on.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Well, we were here.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

No, it was it was uh uh a fundraising event for Camp O'Dan, and we had your cousin Sarah Meslo on a couple of years ago now. Yeah, yeah. And that's a beautiful nonprofit uh camp for kids with cardiac uh challenges.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

It really is a really interesting and heart heartfelt camp that they've been dedicated to for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

And if we could have sunk a single putt, we would have had a much better outcome. We couldn't make a putt to save our lives. But enough about me. So tell us real quick. So you are a Matamidai guy. I will say that your dad, Mr. Meslow, is as everybody he was the athletic director at at Matamidi for many years, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Yeah, many years. We moved here in 1972. He was at St. Olaf and got a call uh from the superintendent who is a friend of his and said, Hey, we've got an AD open in the small town of Montamidae and we're building a new high school, and we also need a boys' basketball coach. And they had lost every game for the previous three seasons. Oh, Jesus. So, would you like the job, Bob? Said, Well, losing team. Let's take a run at it. So I was two years old at the time. I have two older brothers that are nine and eleven years older than me that I'm a bit of a straggler. And uh we up a moved to Matamirai, and it's just been um a wonderful place for our family. We've been very fortunate.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

And you've got uh, you know, a bunch of kids that grew up in the uh in the school district and a bunch of them. Yeah, it's very legendary. Seriously, like I always make fun of Scott Mitchell because you know, yeah, I always said he's the first family of Matamida, but I do think after the Meslos.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

They kind of yeah, now the Schweitzes are the Matami, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Well, Scotty and I we grew up next door to each other, yeah. So we're best of friends, we're like brothers, uh, me and the Mitchell family. So great group. And uh I your daughter uh worked at Indian Hills for a while. And yep, three girls, Allie, Kayla, and Hannah. They're 25, uh 22, and 19 now. The older two are out in the real world and crazy, right? The medical industry, and Hannah's gonna be uh entering her final year at St. Thomas going after her law. There it is. She's gonna follow your footsteps, Schwartz. And then off to law school. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

I've been trained. So, Jeff, you graduate. We we played Lily football together. So I know you were like an athlete when you were a kid, and then uh you graduated from Hilmer or from Matamidai, not Hilmer, Matamidai. Oh Jesus. And then Turf War, right? Tell us about the from the Augsburg to for refing. How did you kind of how did that happen?

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Yeah, absolutely. So I went to Augsburg um to play basketball. So I played four years of basketball at Augsburg, and my dad said, Um, all right, it's my freshman year, it's time to put on a striped shirt and make a little money on the side and give a little back to the game that treated you well growing up. And he said he did the same thing to my brother Dave. Um my brother Doug actually played football at St. Olive, so he did not. So I started officiating football my freshman year in college, uh, would have been in the fall of 1988, and I worked an eighth-grade game at Montamidi, and then we're at the second week of the season, and my dad had a great high school crew. He was the referee, and he had Dwayne Mutchler, who was the basketball coach at Stillwater, Mark Larson, his assistant coach, the four of them, and my brother Doug. Well, they have Apple Valley at Burnsville, who at that point were the top two teams in the state, and my brother is late getting to the house to show up for the game. So they're anxious, getting ready to go. Doug shows up and he said, I'm here, I'm ready to rock and roll. The problem is Jenny, his wife, she's in labor. Oh no. But she's gonna it's gonna be alright. Sure. Like, I can do the game. So uh my dad looked at me and said, Jeff, get your stuff. I'm like, oh my gosh. Get in the van. Make game top two teams in the state. We drive out there, it's sold out. We get through the game. He said, just don't blow your whistle or throw your flag. I was in the umpire position, kind of across from him by the linebackers, and I'll never forget at the end of that game, it was in hand. There's probably a minute and a half left. I think Burnswell was just kneeling it out with the quarterback running the clock out. I looked up and my dad smiled, gave me a little wink, and it was like one of the best feelings. I can still look back and your first game. And I ran off that field flying high. We got in the car, and it was like I'd won the national championship, and that was hooked.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

That's cool. That's awesome. And the fact that it was Burnsville, was it the Braves or the Blaze at that time? It would have been the Braves. Okay. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_06 16:07

Come on, John. That's plain dirty right there.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I'm not sure if you're aware of the fact that KG is a state championship goalie. I do know Burnsville. I do know that. It always has to be mentioned at least once during uh every appearance by Mr. Gorg. But so you're you're uh so you're a freshman in college when that wow. Yeah. That's just really above my head.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

These kids are your age that are exactly yeah, top two teams in the state, but made it through, and it's it's really one of the most uh special experiences of my officiating career still to this day.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

So after your experience there, you get done playing basketball at Augsburg. I'm sure you were all American as you know, most Meslows are. Well, maybe not on paper, but heart's definitely all American. What uh what was next?

SPEAKER_04 16:57

So at that point, you know, I um wanted to continue my football officiating career. So, like anything else in life, you work your way up the ladder, and it's a grind. Like I worked uh junior college football, work high school football for many years. Eventually, then I was hired into the MIC and I was probably 27, 28.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Um So what what do they want when you say it's a grind? Uh is it that they want you to put in your time so you really have that broad base of experience psychology that you want to do. What is it that that they're looking for?

SPEAKER_04 17:28

Yeah, that experience that um you know, knowing the rules, of course, but then just that game experience, how to deal with coaches, pressure, the situation, big crowds, all of that um along the way. And quite frankly, at some of those levels, you know, you see stuff that it's a lot harder to officiate than you do in the Big Ten because kids don't play at that level. Sure. So it's a little sloppier.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, it's crazier.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Yeah. Um, so I did that, and then you know, eventually I was hired into the old North Central Conference, which is a great Division II league back in the day with North Dakota State before they went division one. Um spent some time there, and then moved my way to the Missouri Valley after North Dakota State made that move. So four years there, then four or five years in the MAC. Oh, really? Working Maction and then on to the Big Ten. So it's a journey.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

As this happened, as you kept changing your regions and stuff, this is only something you do in the fall, right? Right. Okay, and you have a full-time job normally. How yeah, how does that balance work?

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Your work and it's it's tricky. Yeah. And that has to come first. Work has to come first for the most part, you know. I always had an eye on trying to move up the ladder, but your job has to come first, uh, your family has to come first. All of those things is is certainly um a test along the way. Yeah, and you need support from your job, you need support from your family, all of those things. Um during that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

During that crossover when the fall starts to kick in, you're trying you have to travel a lot, so you're probably cutting out of work, or like you're having to do lots of crazy yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Like now, for so for example, now usually I'm on site for a Saturday game by four or five o'clock on a Friday.

unknown 19:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:16

For the game Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

So you're flying all over the place. I am it's not like you're sticking, you know, when you're with the Mac, you never had a home game. Never. So you I just have I'm curious about the economics of that. So do you have a budget? What is the Mac? What do you say, the Mac? What do you mean? That's a conference that explain what the Mac is.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

Yeah, it's the Mid-American Conference, so that would have consists of schools like Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Toledo, Ohio.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Okay, that region of the country.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

Yeah, got it. Yeah, bowling green.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

KG, real quick, I know that you have a special event to get to. I'm sure you're chomping at the bit for uh to offer up a question, you know, some of your insights because of you know how brilliant you're a fellow sports professional. Do you have any questions for your message?

SPEAKER_06 20:01

You must need something. But no, I I do have one question I really wanted to I I love college football and I love the Big Ten. I grew up with this, used to go to golfer games, and and this is the kindness chronicles, Jeff. So I want to ask you about Iowa City. I want to ask you about that experience working on that um on the sidelines at that building, uh, watching the Hawkeyes, and then for our listeners, I think most people here in the Midwest know about the wave at the Children's Hospital, which is kind of adjacent to the uh stadium in Iowa City and the entire stadium, and I would assume the players and coaches and referees alike get the chance to wave and the and the kids wave back from the hospital. Can you take us through that process?

SPEAKER_04 20:44

It's one of the best traditions, I think, in the country.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Tell us what it is so our listeners can.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Yeah, so essentially, so that that you can kind of see there, that stadium that hospital overlooks the field. Um, and what they do at the end of the first quarter is stop everything. Officials will go out to the middle of the field, the players will stop from both teams, the coaches put the game aside and rest that portion of the day and wave to these kids while they wave back. And it really puts things in perspective. First time I did it, I had tears rolling down my face. Um now we've actually kind of had the opportunities as officials to get in there the night before and and visit the hospital, which is really um a special experience as well. So it is really an amazing tradition that they've started at Iowa.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Seems like there's a ripple effect. Iowa was playing at Rutgers, and Rutgers even did sort of a remote wave to all of them.

SPEAKER_07 21:44

It is one of the best traditions in all of college football. Back in Iowa for home games at the end of the first quarter. 70,000 fans turn and wave up the night. Here it runs and a tremendous nod to that gesture. 500 drones tanked to the sky, forming a hand, waving across the miles to those brave children and kids at children's hospitals everywhere, guys.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Proving this is much bigger than the opposite end of the spectrum, in between the third and the fourth quarter in Madison, uh, you had a daughter that went to Madison? I did. My daughter is going to be a senior at Madison. Tell us about that experience. Because to me, it's the opposite. It's well, it's just it's very different. It's a little heartwarming, but it's it's heart thumping. Oh, I think I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Well, I can say because my daughter went there, I actually haven't been able to officiate a game there for quite a few years. Really? That's one of the rules. That's one of the rules. That makes sense. Um, while your child is at the school and for typically a couple years after, with social media how it is today, and then and when the box score comes out after the game, they list the officials so you could easily see who worked it and where they're from and check their social media accounts and everything. So they avoid that. So I probably haven't been there for six years, but uh it's loud. You can actually feel the stadium move when you're down there.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, they do the jump around.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

The jump around. It's yeah, you feel the movement.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

And what was super cool is uh a couple of years ago, what is the name of the band that does jump around? House of House of Pain. House of Pain. Yeah. Like they had a couple of the House of Pain guys there in the stadium playing along with them. The other one, KG, what's the one in uh God, it's Westford? They play the Metallica song. Oh, Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech. I was there a couple years ago. That was incredible.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Crazy incredible. Having that moment, whether it's jump around or enter Sandman, that's a way to unite a crowd. Oh, yeah. That's that's a it might not be a heartwarming wave to a child, but that is a way to get people all excited and revved up. And that's that's a power of music.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Total oxytocin, the power of music. And what's super cool is I love how they they always videotape, you know, because they're running commercials in between the quarters, but they'll come back from commercial and they'll play, and they always love to show the team that's the visiting team for the jump around thing. Yeah, because they're looking forward to that probably as much as being a part of the game. Yeah, yeah. Because most of them will probably only get the opportunity to do it maybe once or twice during their college career. Oh my god. But you know, it really does bring everybody together. It's super cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

The dream to be the band that does that.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

I know, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:36

It'd be so cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Anyway. The Virginia Tech thing. Yeah. A couple of years ago, Metallica played at Virginia Tech Stadium, and they went through and they did their whole set, and at the end of the at the end of the the the show, they're like, Thanks for coming. And they hadn't played Enter Sandman, and they walk off the stage, and James Hetfield comes back and he's like, Thank you. This has been great. You got good night, thanks for being a great crowd. Walks off the stage again, he comes back up there and he's like, What are you guys looking for? And then all of a sudden, uh the the guitar player starts playing that little riff at the beginning, and Lars starts banging the drum. I mean, it's so freaking and they went wild.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

The tension up for the tension. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Enough about music, enough about your music.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

But um, I want to hear more from Jeff about because it's a kindness chronicles, we're kind of curious to know about some cool, kind moments, but but barring that when did you when you took this on and started doing this seriously? You know, college, you started to put all your time in. You had to there had to be some moments where you're like, wow, this is this is really serious. Like you have some power here and you have a you have a serious responsibility. Did it kind of weigh heavily on you at at a point uh after you kind of got over the the craziness that you're doing it? Did did it start to sink into did you have any moments like that?

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Yeah, for sure, Steve. Um so my first year in the Big Ten, um my gosh, I think yeah, we opened up at Oregon that year, which was a they weren't in the conference yet. We had an art conference game. And I think just walking out there and looking around and going, holy smokes, like this is this is this is something different than I've experienced before to see a crowd like that, uh a noise factor like that, the intensity of the moment like that. Um it's interesting though, because once once the game started, it could feel like I was working at Mind Meter High School. No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Once it gets clear, you just get focused on the game.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

You get focused so much on the game in your training.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

What specifically do you do as a referee?

SPEAKER_04 26:48

So I'm the line judge. So what's it what does I am so where I stand is on the line of scrimmage, all the coaches behind me, you know. Yelling in your life. So that's a big part of my job is the effectiveness of my communication is important.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

You gotta be so wow.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Uh so the first thing I'll do is make sure that we get a snap off legally to make sure the formation is correct offensively, make sure we don't have a false start, defense isn't in the line in the neutral zone. The play starts legally, is my number one responsibility. And then after that, I usually am responsible for marking where the ball carrier gets down. Yep. Quite often I'm ruling on the goal line if he's in or not. Um, plays on the edge, if there's a hold. Um every formation actually, before the ball is snapped, depending on how the offense lines up, every official then keys off that who they watch on the play. Okay. So you'd have to read the play, know who you're gonna watch, react to the play, get in your rhythm, and then do it again.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

So you're watching for so do you are you uh do you call like holding penalties? Okay.

SPEAKER_08 27:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Um the line judge. There's another line judge on the other side. There is, and one of the things that I've always been curious of is are you guys kind of looking at each other going, okay, he's and sort of adjusting to a spot because their angle, I mean, especially when the play is is downfield, I mean, you're getting some steps in.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Right totally, and that's a great observation because we do help each other out quite a bit and we get a feel for each other. The guy I've been with, uh BJ Henry, for the last few years, we have such a good rhythm in sync where we we can key off each other. We know when somebody is a little off on his spot and we'll come in. We actually wear headsets now that communicate to each other on the field.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

So he can be like Mez, you're off a couple yards, you've got to slide up a little bit. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05 28:38

Okay, how many uh members on an officiating team is there per game? Is it seven?

SPEAKER_04 28:44

In college, there's eight. Okay. The NFL is seven, which is interesting. High school is five.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

And then do you is it the same group of people every game that you and so you get to know each other and mostly it is, um, unless there's conflicts like I talked about with Wisconsin that I've had the last couple years with John.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

You know, if there's a potential conflict of interest, they're very sensitive about that, which they should be. So that'll make some changes in an assignment, but typically it's the same.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

And um, this is just one observation. So the guy that wears the white hat, is that the referee?

SPEAKER_04 29:16

That's the referee, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And why is it that the referees always look like they spend a lot of time working on their arms?

SPEAKER_04 29:22

They're on they're on camera.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I mean, seriously, every referee and they have their shirts, they look like they've been taken in the city. I know totally jacked changed. Yeah, it didn't are. Yeah, there's a couple of those guys that are just totally jacked, and they're old guys.

SPEAKER_04 29:37

Yeah, I know. I think they compete with each other.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

So um, who's the one guy? And this is this is an NFL question. Uh-huh. Um, there's one guy, his son is now super jacked. What Ed Hockley. Ed Hockley. His son, Sean. And I heard that Ed Hockley was like the CEO of some big company. Like he was cashing big checks Monday through Friday, and then on Sundays he's doing okay as well.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Yeah, I think I think if I'm I could be wrong, I think he was a real successful attorney. Oh, that could be what it is, too.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

You know, you gotta be uh that that fits in with the judiciously.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Okay, back to the Big Ten. Yeah. Um, you've been with the Big Ten for 10 years now. This will be my tenth, yep. Um the Big Ten has expanded. And uh do you is there a a stadium that is this is one of those areas you've got to be careful. No, I was just gonna ask like uh you know, is there a stadium that like you get an you you feel an extra level of in uh excitement about uh doing your work at?

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Yeah. I'm gonna kind of give you a vanilla response here, John. This is one of the no, it's and it's a fair question, and it's a great one. There are 18 incredible environments in the Big Ten. They all vary a little bit um in size, in history. But man, one of the things that I try to do is is every time you know there is a you know, you talked about jump around at Wisconsin or whatever it is, everyone's got their thing. Is I always take the headset off and I just listen and joke and look around and appreciate where I am because it is a pretty incredible opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

If I were a ref, like Michigan is so huge and just absolutely incredible. Yep. Um, how about weather-wise? Can you talk about weather? When it gets cold out, yeah, that looks just like a miserable beast. Honest to God. It is so tell us, is there a game looking back on your career that you thought I might not make it through this because my face is ready to break?

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Yeah. Well, the most recent one, I've had quite a few of them. You're gonna run into them. I had one at Michigan State three years ago. It was the last game of the year there, and it was brutal, absolutely brutal. And actually, the I would say the probably the worst one I had before that is actually involved um Coach Fleck. It was his last year at Western Michigan. Oh, um, was also my last year in the Mac. So I worked in the Mac the same amount of years that his first year was my first year, and then he joined the Big Ten the same year as I did, so we've had a lot of games together over the years. But um Does he know your name? Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

So like you communicate with each other, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

All the coaches do. Um, but we had uh we had Western Michigan at um northern Illinois, and it was a Wednesday night before Thanksgiving, and it was horrible. Horrible. And I remember PJ started out like you know, he's a sharp dresser, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:38

He was you know gutting it out, and by the fourth quarter, he put his coat on and was like, Coach Right, like he, you know, it's like remember when Bud Graham uh the game against the Seahawks at the at the the Huntington banks. He's wearing a polo shirt, right? He's wearing a polo shirt and it's like 30 below wind chill. Yeah, what a badass.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

It's hard to focus on the game when you're that cold, but you really have to find a way to well, and plus you're moving around, so at least you're at least you're moving around.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Let me touch on that. So this is this is kind of a nitty-gritty of what you're doing. But first of all, it's so interesting to to hear your perspective going into a game because we're all watching the game and we're thinking about our nerves for the players. Nobody's thinking about this is a nervous thing for you guys because you have to be responsible for what's gonna happen. That kind of blows my mind. That would freak me out. And also, from what you're saying, you have to be focused. You have to you that's gotta be exhausting as you go because you have to focus on before the game, before the ball you know gets set and then figure out where it lands. You have to seriously focus. It's that's that freaks me out too. I can't imagine how that would be exhausting and uh and frightening or or you know, it's exciting, but like you said, long question. That's I guess I'm just making a comment about those two things.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

That's true. Totally. And I think it's almost at the end of the game, you're more emotionally exhausted than physically exhausted. So I think that's fair. And and a lot of what helps us is we'll arrive at a stadium three hours before, and it's almost like you're putting on a clueless show. It's a performance in a lot of ways where we'll get there, we'll meet with the TV production crew, we'll meet with the instant replay crew, we'll meet with the ball boys, we'll meet with the clock operator, we'll meet with the play clock operator, we'll meet with the chain gang. All these people that we will we have a guy that tells us when commercials are about to end. So it's to to pull off the most flawless game management production that we can for the fans and for TV. So when it comes out of TV, it's pretty much momentarily that the next snap is gonna happen. There's a lot of things that really go into it to try to provide the best experience for the kids, number one, and then the fans.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

So when the fans rush the field at the end of the big game, what what where do you guys go? Because I, you know, I would imagine that that must feel like chaos.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

It does. Yeah, I've had it a few times. It's kind of cool. I'd be like, wow, this is awesome. But the first thing I do is take my whistle off. Okay. Because if someone's mad, I don't want them to be able to pull my whistle off. That's the first thing that's kind of a rough trick. Wow. And then you put your head down and you know the eggs that you need to get to and just try to go.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

No kidding. Yeah. Um, have there been any games in your Big Ten career that you would consider like the biggest game that you've refed? Is that a question that's in the Yeah? No, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

I mean, I've I've had the opportunity to the do the Big Ten championship.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Oh, really? Yep. Okay. I did that. Um And that's kind of an honor, isn't it? Isn't it like a recognition of the work that you've done throughout the year?

SPEAKER_04 35:45

It's awesome. It's it's um it's really competitive, you know, throughout the year. Uh, you know, as much as we're all friends on the staff, you we get graded intensely every week. I'll get a grade every Thursday after my game on the previous Saturday. Sumakum laude, I'm assuming. Every snow high honors. I try, John, but not um so then we get rewarded with postseason, whether it be at the Big Ten Championship or a bowl game or whatever that might look like. So, but yeah, I've had some opportunities that have been um I'm really grateful for to be able to work that. You know, I've had a lot of the rivalry games that you maybe think of as storied rivalries. I have had Ohio State, Michigan, I've had Minnesota, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Purdue, Indiana, um, a lot of those storied rivalry games that are pretty cool to be a part of.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So you're a big guy. I mean, how tall are you, bud? Six four. Six four. When you're out there and you see some of those offensive linemen, those defensive linemen, not only how huge they are, but just how fast they are. Can you just describe the difference between a high school game and a big 10 football game?

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Yeah, they are fast, John. I don't know if I could put it into words, but it pure it really is the speed. You can see some big kids at every level, but man, I actually see it most probably in like the linebackers and the defensive backs. Oh, those guys I mean it's it's being a personal.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

You're so much closer to the case. That's what I feel. Yeah, yeah. So it's you get a really sense of how fast they're going. We were up in the stadium, you know, it's kind of harder to tell, it's just a cool show going on. But yeah, when you're that close, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And standing by some of them, you look up and you're like, wow, you're a big dude. I've had the the good fortune of being like in the tunnel at the University of Minnesota before a big check presentation or something. And those guys come marching out, and it's like they're like a different species of human being, how huge they are. But what I love is, and I'm sure you see this all the time, is you know, when they're when when they're coming out and they're they're high five and the little kids that are I mean, that to me just warms my heart because you can tell which guys just love that part of the of their I guess it's almost like a a you know, it's an opportunity, but it's also a responsibility. And I know that PJ Fleck, and I can speak about PJ Fleck. PJ Fleck does such a lovely job of making sure that his players are engaged in the community. They spend a lot of time at the Masonic Children's Hospital and the number of photographs and the time that's spent. Um I have a Masonic Children's Hospital story, I gotta tell you before we uh before we put it on the book. Part of the bingo. Oh Jesus. We're talking about sick kids, Steve. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Um, actually Masonic, that's all.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

If you wouldn't mind, I actually have a good story story to share. Please, why you're here. Um so probably one of the most heartwarming experiences, in fact, it is that I've had in my career in the Big Ten. Um does the name Casey O'Brien ring a bell too? He's been on our show. Has he?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Okay, we had Casey on.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah, so Casey, young man, um, diagnosed with osteosarcoma, which is a brutal bone cancer. And I I know it so well because my nephew had the same thing. He was diagnosed, um, my oldest brother Doug's son, when he was 17. Oh my god. Um, and we lost him two years later at the age of 19. Uh back in the city. Same ailment that took Zach Sobia. Same as yep, the clo Clouds uh song that made it. Yeah, and um it's a brutal. So uh I knew Casey was going through this, so I'd be go over the practices or see him at games, and I didn't really want to say much because um I didn't want to scare him because I had lost my nephew to the to the cancer. But I always you know, I'd pat him on the back or say hi to him, and just an amazing kid, as I'm sure you saw when he was in here. And it got um when he was a senior, you may have talked about his opportunity when he played at Rutgers.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

I want to hear from your perspective.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

And I I was I had that game. Oh, wow. And um and I and I had read in the paper that Casey was gonna probably get in, and I saw him on the sidelines before the game, and I went up to him and I was like, I'm pulling for you, man. I hope you get in. And he looked at me like I was like, I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna and the game went along, and it got to be in the fourth quarter, I believe, when he got in as the holder. That's because he couldn't risk it hit, and he got in there. Um it was a bad snap that he got, and he did a great job. He got the he got it down, and they made the kick, and he went off that sideline, and I was on the same sideline, probably 15-20 yards away, and he he hugged PJ and the kids, and man, that's that that was a moment. I think I was thinking about my nephew. I know what he had been through. Um, that was an amazing thing. What a celebration, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

And I know Casey is continuing to battle. Um but that's uh that is a very tough cancer to uh to to battle.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

Amazing kid. His dad's up at St. John's now. I saw him. Isn't he the athletic director or something up there? Yeah. Yep. But pulling a pulling out for him.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

And yeah, like the PJ Fleck hugging Casey, just thinking about it, gets me kind of choked up because you can see that PJ Fleck sincerely loves these young men that he's that he's working with. You know, I'm not sure about the diving on him after the game, after a win against the game. He's kind of a showman, too. That's what I appreciate that about him. Oh god, he's he is not going to talk about PJ Fleck anymore. So um players that you've witnessed um, you know, uh you don't even need to use names, but have there been uh sportsmanship moments that really caught your attention and made you feel like, okay, this is a guy who gets it.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

You know what, John? One of the things that is um surprising to me or has been over the years in the Big Ten is there's not a lot of trash talk between the players.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Really?

SPEAKER_04 41:50

There is not very little. There's probably a lot more trash talk between players if you were to go to a seventh grade basketball game than you would. Well, exactly. Totally, Steve. Um but the kid the players I don't I don't get a lot of that. They're good. There's they help each other up. I think there's safety rules in the game now with targeting the things that have been enforced have been really good for the game, well challenging for fans, I think, to adjust to. Um, I don't think that there's necessarily as many cheap shots and dirty hits as there used to be in the game, for sure. Um but yeah, you know, for the most part, these guys will help each other up. They'll they'll shake hands after the game, they'll shake hands before the game. They're they're the sportsmanship is very good.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Do the coaches um do the coaches, the the head coaches, are they the ones that are most responsible for communicating with you? Are are there assistants? Is there like a rule that they can't chirp or can they all chirp? I've got my rule. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

So uh uh best answer. The head coaches the head coaches right there in our league are are excellent. You know, they all have their different personalities, certainly. Um, I have to adjust my communication um approach for each one of them.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Kind of like the sales rolling a little bit, they're all gonna be a little bit different. Some of them are gonna want more communication than others, some of them are gonna want to hear from you all day long, some of them will stay a ways away. Um for me, I will talk to the head coach all day long. It's the assistant coaches, the leash is gonna be a little shorter because I can't as as big as these staffs are, I can't answer to 25 coaches. It's really but I will answer to one. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Every time coaches are now on a on a team like there's the assistant tight end coach now. I mean, it's like come on, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:55

And they're all chirping at you. Oh, no, it depends on the school, not for the most.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

I have a question. So I I've known you for a long time. I know your demeanor since you were a young guy and all through high school. You're a very calm, very laid-back guy. You have a lot of responsibility. How do you handle keeping cool? And have you lost your cool? Do you have a story you can tell us a general, like generally, how that works?

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Yeah, for sure. I think part of keeping your cool is over time you gain confidence and you gain your composure and you're used to the situations. And um training for that? Do you get training? No, I think it's just experience. Experience. Yeah. Okay. And um knowing the personality of the coaches really helps a lot too, and the trust that they have in me and that I, you know, respect their opinion, I think helps a lot. But yeah, there's definitely been times, you know, I I've um I've had in the 10 years I threw one unsportsman like condoc flag on a head coach and it was earned. And what's gonna get a coach in trouble is typically is if they come out on the field. If they stay behind me, pretty much say what's on the field. Say what you want, say what's on the field. But if it's if it's on the field, that's more scared. That's coming to catch it. Yeah, that's disappointing. And it's just a bigger display for TV, then it's gonna be time where I'm gonna have to deal with it. But I saw that coach um a month later. He came up and he said, Jeff, we didn't have a real good week together four weeks ago, did we? I was like, No. I said, But you know what, I take a lot of ownership in that too. And he said, as do I. I said, and it was near Thanksgiving. He said, I wish you and your family a great Thanksgiving. So that's great. Things really do. The power of an apology right there. Yeah, there's a lot of professionalism. And like I said before, I'm telling you what, you go to a sixth grade AAU basketball game in the Twin Cities, you're gonna see a lot worse behavior than you're gonna have at a Big Ten football game.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

I gotta tell you a great story. Let's hear it. So I'm coaching football, and I'm coaching with this is a Matamida, and the kids were probably fifth graders, and I was uh made the head coach of this team because Neil Fox, whose son Parker, um, Neil wasn't allowed to be a head coach because Neil was a little too enthusiastic. Let's just put it that way. We're playing in this game, and we're playing against forgive me, North St. Paul. And there's a coach uh on the other side that is just losing his mind. And one of the things that I always did as a coach is I always kind of tried to butter up the the refs, you know, just you know, chat with them and stuff. And this one particular ref who I really like, and he's actually become a personal friend of mine. I'm just gonna say uh Mark Dornfeld. Yeah, Dorney Mark, yeah. So Dorney, this guy is chirping like crazy, and I'll never ever forget it. Dorney looks over at me and he gives me a wink and he goes, watch this. And he throws a flag, calls a holding penalty just because he knew that it was gonna call you know, he only did it the one time, but I'll never forget it. The like, and I mean it's a fifth grade game, so there's really no, there's no so after the game, this guy is going nuts. So I turn my stuff. I believe it. So I turn my stuff over uh and I walk across the field to the guy that is the uh the the the crazy coach, and I said, Coach, you might want to consider trying decaffeinated coffee before one of these games. And he it made him even more. You lit the fuse. I lit the fuse right now and then I give it a lot of the is the greatest. So back to your career as a ref. Yeah. So you're a line judge. Do people aspire to be like the referee? Is that sort of like the the the the hierarchy? So you're like a colonel and you want to be the general. How does that work? Some do. So where do you where do you start on a crew?

SPEAKER_04 47:59

It just depends. There really isn't you don't start in the referee position. That is usually something you work your way up to. I haven't had a desire to do that.

SPEAKER_05 48:07

Um, based on some of the research I did, I mean, those had refs, they're working 25, 30 hours a week prepping, watching video. If I heard the right um podcasts and stuff that I was kind of and I was trying to figure out how do you do your full-time job, but it sounds like maybe the eight people, the seven or eight um shift responsibilities have different hours.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

Yeah, we all I mean the referee does do a lot, but we all do. I mean, every week um I have to take a rules test every week. Um we review film from the previous week, we prepare and watch film for the game teams that we're gonna have in the upcoming week. Um, so there is actually a fair a good amount of work to do during the week, during the season. But yeah, the referee had has to take probably the brunt of mo of more of that than the rest of us.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

But do you get a week off during the season? Usually a couple. Okay, so you get to enjoy football as a spectator from time to time. Is that possible? Or I'll get away. Oh, you just completely get away from the game. Well, you know, not the little try not to get hit by a ball by a ball by uh by young bucks that can really get after it.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

I want to talk about the fans for a second. Yeah. College fans, as we already kind of talked about with the the songs and stuff, get crazy. What's one of the do you have any moment you can talk about that uh you've seen crazy behavior or or maybe something that's disrupted or or or something really cool you've seen somebody, some fans do, something that would be uh considered kind or very sportsmanship?

SPEAKER_04 49:38

Well, probably more on the opposite side of sportsmanship. Uh-huh. They're the ones that are probably a little bit more memorable to be memorable to me. Face painted. Yeah. I mean, they're the college football fans are awesome. That's why I think personally that a college football game is more fun to go to than an NFL game. It's a different energy, yeah. The fan base is so rabbit and intense, and they've been tailgating, and they're they're incredible. Um, I have had a couple experiences where we've had to get, you know, police escorts out. Oh no. Or to the hotel for sure. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

You've had fans that have followed you like out of games chirping at you.

SPEAKER_08 50:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:19

Oh no. Yeah. Or going in. So we usually get it, we always get a police escort in a couple times we've needed it to get out of there.

SPEAKER_08 50:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

But uh it uh but again, that's what makes it awesome. I actually love it.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

You know, there's been talk in the NFL about full-time reps, like that being your full-time job. I always assumed it was the case. That's what I did too. I think most of us do.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

We think, well, that's that's what they do.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

That's not the case, right? I mean, those guys all have other gigs, right?

SPEAKER_04 50:50

A lot of them do, they could make it their full-time job. They actually just signed a new contract, which was pretty lucrative. Um, so they could make it a full-time job, but most of them do choose to have another job as well. What do you do when you're not refing? So I work for Tar Cut Sports, so I sell um artificial turf football fields, tennis courts, pickleball courts. Nick Flood does this as well. Do you know Nick? Nick Flood?

SPEAKER_03 51:15

I know he knew that he knew of his company. I talked to Nick about that. Oh they are in the same world, he does the same kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

This guy uh Nick sells uh basketball courts, yeah, okay, sport courts and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

He was upset that I don't think St. Thomas went with him, but we won't talk about that. And his dad was the legendary coach, Coach Flood at St. Thomas. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely no coach Flood. So because you went to Augsburg because your parents didn't love you enough to send you to St. Thomas? There it is. It had to be St. My parents were Olies, actually. They wanted me to go to St.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

Oliph. So yeah. Oh yeah. Brother Older brother Doug, oldest brother Doug went there, but Dave and I broke the mold and saw the light and went to Auggies. He went to Auggy too.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah. So Gary Tangwall. Yeah. Yeah. Tangwall was a guy that we used to coach against, and he had another this Brendan Meyer was his uh co-coach, and I was referred to them as Tango and Cash because I remember that show. It's a movie.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

Yeah, these these two guys were uh wasn't Sylvester Stallone in that correct, it was a Sylvester Stallone.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Enough about Tango and Cash, but they were good guys, still are good guys.

SPEAKER_05 52:23

But you know, back to the fan thing, I mean, just there's social media channels dedicated to like ripping on refs and like the worst calls ever. And yeah, you know, what's the biggest misconception that fans have about refs, would you say?

SPEAKER_04 52:39

Yeah, you know, I think historically, um the refs have kind of been the bad guys, kind of the adversaries. Yeah, you know. And I still think to in some degree to that case, but uh yeah, we're gonna do things that the fans aren't gonna agree with for sure. And instant replay in the TV right now, the care, the angles that you get, and the way they can slow it down. Man, it's incredible experience to watch on uh at home or at Buffalo Wild.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

They'll think they know before you know. They'll they'll the crowd will think they know the answer before you can tell us.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

Yeah, definitely. So um they have a great lens into it, and now they've got kind of access to us and our social media accounts pretty pretty easily. So be very careful with that. You know, I'll never post anything. I have you know, I've heard a couple things over the years. Um nothing that I felt was a security issue, but you know, it's something that we need to be aware of for sure at all times.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Big, big business money, especially with the betting.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Yeah, I mean, all that's and that's where the risks are for him. He's got to be careful because anyone can look up things and like maybe get ideas on where he's going with something, and that's that's there a particular penalty that you would call that is the most um uh controversial controversial.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

I would say holding. Okay, because there's holding on damn near every play. There is. I was an offensive lineman and I held on every single I had to because it sucked. Um, but you know, they they kind of coach, you know, where to get your hands so they don't see it.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

Yeah, it's holding. I would agree with that for sure, you know, and and we have a philosophy on what we're gonna call and when we're gonna call holding, and we'll hope try to be as consistent as possible with that. You know, we want the do we want the the hold we're gonna call to be at the point of the attack of the play. We want a clear advantage. Like if you and I are head up and our feet are engaged and we're straight up, but I've got to hold your jersey. That's probably gonna be a legal block. It's when you get away and you and you're right, and all of a sudden that jersey is gonna get in the radars up.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Jeff, I saw there there's like this network center or some kind of a media center where there are multiple cameras and and it's been a big change in your world of roughing. Is that right? Do you could you talk a little about that?

SPEAKER_04 54:55

Yeah, it's an amazing facility in Chicago, the the command center they call it for the Big Ten. An incredible facility with huge TVs all over, and that's actually now where our replay reversals or confirmations are determined. So we have somebody on site uh up in the booth that will communicate with us, we'll communicate with them if there's gonna be a play shut down and looked at again, and then it gets shot to the Big Ten office in Chicago where wow, powers are be are are put it up on their main screen, that play, and they watch it, and then they'll communicate back with us what to do with it.

SPEAKER_05 55:30

Wow. That's how they score you each week, probably, because they've got literally footage of you every week, and it probably is a lot allows you to study the game.

SPEAKER_04 55:38

Yeah, it's great technology though, it's pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_05 55:41

It's cool.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Uh my boys both were umpires as you know, umpiring like second and third grade baseball. And I'm wondering before uh instant replay, did you ever change your mind on a call? Oh gosh, John. I mean, I was kind of raised-that wasn't holding. How often have you said, no what you're right?

SPEAKER_04 56:05

That wasn't holding. And then pick it up and change it. It doesn't happen, does it? Usually not. I've had plenty of calls though, where I've, you know, in my younger years especially, throw it.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

The flags out there, you're like, oh, can I get that back? Put a string on it, pull it back, Spider-Man style. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Hey, that's an itch. That's a million dollar idea.

SPEAKER_04 56:25

No, I don't know. But that was kind of back in the day where you threw a flag, you stood by it, but now you'll see it a lot more often where officials will converse at a different angle, pick up a flag, and it's it's actually you know, uh uh a good good officiation. I do think so. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Especially when you're on the good side of that.

SPEAKER_04 56:41

Yeah. Yeah, totally. We'd I'd rather I'd much rather um miss a call versus call something that isn't there.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

You know, I'd rather I'd rather my favorite is is when you see the guy reach for the flag and kind of start snugging it out. Yeah. Throw the flag, throw the flag. We could sit here and talk all day.

SPEAKER_03 57:08

No, no, no. I got another question. It's not referring so much, but um, it's about your kids. Okay. Great. Girls, you say? Three girls. Three girls. What do they think about you doing this? And and have they been watching do this forever? Um, do they come to the games? Your wife and kids, you know, what's the what's their reaction? What's your family's reaction to what you do?

SPEAKER_04 57:28

It's been it's been the reason why I'm still doing it. You know, my wife Megan's an incredible supporter. She loves to go to the games, and then Ally, Kayla, and Hannah, you know, I was gone a lot on weekends in the fall growing up. And um I remember uh a fellow official of mine telling me, and I was, you know, I was gonna miss a basketball game or something of one of the girls and feeling guilty about it. And and I coached those girls. I did everything I could when I was around for sure. But he was like, you know, he was like, Mez, you know, it's good for them to see you doing this. Like they are getting something out of this by being able to watch you pursue something that you love, um, go to a game with all these people or see it on TV. Um, so I think that they've really enjoyed it. You know, I love having them come. The more I can include my family uh along the way here, the better.

SPEAKER_03 58:22

I can I can relate in the way that my kids are 20s, 20-year-olds, and you know, 223 and 21, and they can now finally see my band. Oh, having my kids there, yeah, so cool. It's not about me impressing them, it's just me sharing this part of my life with them. And this is a part of your life, so much of what you do every you know, weekend for 10 years or 25 years, obviously. No doubt that it feels good, right? And that I that's what I was hoping that would be the case. They gotta be like, wow, look at that's my dad.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

Yeah, it rings true, Steve. For sure it does. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Um, your dad, uh again, Matamidai legend, you know, in the Matamidai Hall of Fame, he's gotta be just incredibly proud of you boys.

SPEAKER_04 59:03

You know what, John? Yeah. So, like I mentioned, he turns 91 in a couple weeks, and he's not moving very well physically like he used to anymore, but his mind is great. And um inevitably, after my game or after my brother's game on a Sunday, um, our first phone call needs to be to dad, and he'll answer, and he'll either say, Jeff, God, you had a great game. Or he'll say, So, Jeff, uh, how do you think it went? And then I'll call my brother Dave, and I'll be like, I got the how do you think it went? Or he'll call me, he's like, I got this. Believe in how do you think it went?

SPEAKER_01 59:49

I also I uh want to mention your mom.

SPEAKER_05 59:51

It's actually a really nice question instead of keep it open.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

You know what? That's uh that's a very smart guy. Yeah, your mom, yes, a big time Mata Midai fan. I remember the first time I met your mom, she would come up and watch our boys playing baseball, and somebody's like, Well, that's Mrs. Meslow. And there's no grandkids, but she's just a super fan.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

She is, she loves it, and she is so she loves to be active. Uh she is just turned 88. My dad got her an Alan Page 88 jersey for her birthday tour, so she's wearing that around proudly. She's fabulous. She's amazing. She actually uh used to officiate high school volleyball, so um did her own and then was the cheerleader, yeah. Uh head of cheerleaders at Miami Day for years. She's an amazing, amazing person. She's um a cancer survivor, an MS survivor.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

Both in the same year when she's in her 40s. And tell you what, she's tougher than any of the Meslo boys. It's not even close. Just the three boys. There are no daughters in the uh so you got all the girls. Brother Dave, two girls, um, as well. Uh, and then my oldest brother Doug, two boys.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Um so uh did Doug raise his kids in Matami Dae?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

White Bear Lake.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

White Bear Lake. What happened there? Hey, no, I take offense at all. That's why I said it. Anyway, any final questions?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Okay, my my little final thought was about about football. So what would you say football? This is some just philos philosophical kind of thought. Uh-oh. What do you think football teaches us about life? What what parallels would you say football, life? I mean, this sport you live in every year for a long, long time. Is there any kind of philosophical thought that rings true that connects with football?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:48

Yeah, I mean, I think you could say this about most sports, but certainly I think in football there is a high degree of um toughness, resilience, both physically and mentally. Uh response, you're gonna make these kids are gonna make mistakes. Uh they've got some intense coaches that push them hard. I've seen in practices, and how they respond to that kind of coaching and pushing. Teamwork, for sure. It's a great, great team sport, for sure. Um, I I think it's kind of the same with football officiating in a lot of ways. A lot of those things is how you respond to you know, making a mistake. How do you bounce back when you make a mistake in front of a hundred thousand people on in the stadium and eight million people watching on TV? How do you not let it affect the next place so you screw up again? You know, I think that there's a ton of lessons in there, and and that's you know, something that I've taken in my life, you know, disappointments, how do you respond to it? I've always stressed that with my daughters. Um, so I I I really think that the sport teaches that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

And I love it that you uh you still you still love the game because you said earlier, at one moment you just take off your hat and just take just take off your headphones and just listen and just enjoy take it all in. That's oh for sure. That's so cool that you still get to do that, you still have that appreciation you're not a old, bitter old, retired uh referee guy who's just cranky at everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah, and there's not a lot of people that do what you do. I mean, to make it to that level, that is rare air. You know, when you think about how many professional football players there are, how many uh Division I uh football players there are year after year, you know, the the number of people that achieve the level of success that you have as a referee, as an official, I mean, that's something to be really proud of. Thanks, John.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

Yeah. It is. It's it's uh I've had a lot of people help me along the way. You know, that's a big part of it. It's very competitive to move up, incredibly competitive to move up. Um, but I do soak it up and I'm grateful, you know, whether it be standing out in front of the national anthem, you know, and looking around and being like, wow, this is cool. Yeah, you know, and you know, I'll at that moment I'll think about the people that got me there, um, my family. Um the ones we lost along the along the way. Yeah. You know, I've lost uh a nephew and Peter, and those last six months I lost my niece, Cara. I saw that I'm Dave's daughter. Um so I'll be thinking about, you know, in those moments, I think those big moments I reflect on.

unknown 1:04:38

You know.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:39

I have um I have you ever heard of Jordan Peterson? I haven't okay. He's on he's all over the internet, but he's a psychologist and uh he'll talk about sports and uh gives uh kind of an intellectual perspective. And I've often wondered why is sport such a big deal for our society. And and he made an analogy that you're seeing a drama play out in real life in a two-hour, three-hour period. And I thought that's a really cool thing. You're you know, life can take a hundred years, and that there's a lot of boring parts in between, but you've compressed a drama in a in a short amount of time. And I, as I was reflecting on that statement, I was thinking how important your job is because you're the governance of that to make sure the play is fair. So I don't know if you have I know that's like a heady mentalist comment that John will probably go ahead and comment.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

It's true though, I agree with you, you know, and that's why for me before the game, um reflecting on the people that got me there and I love, and then the game starts, and you're kind of in that mindset where you are comfortable and you are ready to deal with whatever comes your way, where you're training and you know you're there for the right reason, and then those moments, you know, where they might be doing a song that everyone loves or whatever in between plays, you gotta just soak it up and be like, gosh, I'm lucky to be here. So and then go back and get back after it and hope to get the next play right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Well, before you go, if you want, or even after we were finished here, we could go over to the weight room there and we can work on your biceps, you know. Well, they need a lot of help to check that ties in.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:18

So you mentioned it earlier, John, like you gotta be in shape too. You obviously look like you're still in good shape, but you gotta you gotta run a lot, you gotta be on your feet, yeah, you gotta be working on that harder as you get older, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

Right, it does get tough. And you know, they actually um so I'll have a clinic July in the middle of July that I go out to and I have to step in and scale in front of my boss. And then how many jobs do you have to do that? So they track that, they track um how we do on our test scores, they they they watch all of those things very closely. If you don't keep up, you could lose some games or signal.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:50

So you're jogging and stuff, or are you doing right now?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:52

Right now, guys, it's a lot of vegetables and chicken and fish here for the next six weeks to make sure I'm where I need to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Golf doesn't hurt, right? A little golf, yeah, yeah walking.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

What John? If we were to offer you a hundred grand, um just so you know, this came on our story uh MCAA. No, I'm teasing, but you should sneak one of those later in the day. You know, and I'll do that. Anything else?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

I think it's so great that we got a chance to do this, Jeff. I I really appreciate you uh back and forth for so long to make it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

For your energy and effort getting Jeff on. We've been talking about you on for ages. Uh Yomi Bear's granddaughter to be able to check all those boxes. Some great guests coming up in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, so really good cool guests.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

We've had a lot of great ones, but I've had a really good run. We're so excited you're subscribing to our uh YouTube channel. Keep checking it out, spread the word, and uh we really appreciate you listening to it. We appreciate the checking.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:51

Nice to meet you and great job representing Modamita.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Let's go to some hammer curls for your weekly dose of positive propaganda. Subscribe on YouTube and wherever to find podcasts are fine.