Episode 55. Prince Hall Freemasonry (ft. Kymphus Muhammad & Tibyus Hill)

No strangers to authentic brotherhood: Kymphus Muhammad and Tibyus Hill from Anchor Hilyard Lodge No. 2 join us for a discussion of history, social capital, and collaboration in both lodge & community. 

 “As people’s appetite for goodness grows, then they will begin to see and notice what we do as Freemasons.” 

Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to another episode of Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries. My name is Reid Endersby, and I am the Regional Director for the Grand Lodge of Minnesota and Minnesota Masonic Charities. Excited to be joined today by two guests, Kimfis Muhammad and also Tobias Hill. Kempfis is a proud native of Minnesota, born and raised in the Summit University neighborhood in St. Paul. With over 30 years of experience as a skilled private investigator, he specializes in criminal defense and currently holds a position with the Hennepin County Public Defender's Office. In addition to his investigative work, Kimfa serves as the director of the Sahaba mentor program. This initiative is dedicated to nurturing the academic, social. And spiritual growth of youth and young adults through personal relationships and personalized mentorship. Campus is also a distinguished combat veteran. Having retired in 2014 as a commissioned officer in the United States army. Thank you for your service. as a proud member of the Prince Hall Freemasons. Kim has served two years as Worshipful Master of Anchor Hilliard Lodge number two in 2004 and 2005, he went on to become the 50th most worshipful Grand Master of Minnesota's Prince Hall Grand Lodge from 2014 to 2016 in recognition of his exceptional service, he was honored with the 33rd degree in Scottish right masonry in May, 2021. For his commitment to honor virtue and humanitarian service. Kim Fitz dedicates countless hours to mentoring juveniles within the criminal justice system. And he also travels nationwide to lecture and conduct workshops on leadership, brotherhood, and the fundamental principles and values of Freemasonry. Also joining us is Tobias Hill. He was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, the age of 14, moved to Minnesota and attended Washburn high school in South Minneapolis. After high school studied criminal justice at Minnesota state Mankato, later completing his bachelor of arts in criminal justice at Metro state university in St. Paul. During college, he joined Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, which introduced him to a network of lifelong friends and valuable life lessons. His introduction to Freemasonry came through a close friend who was his first mentor. Additionally, one of his professors, Mark Robbins, we know Mark, past master of Mankato Lodge No. 12, Professionally, he has worked as a pretrial probation officer for Hennepin County, a corrections officer, and a coordinator for re entry housing for newly released offenders. In 2021, he transitioned into entrepreneurship by founding his own trucking company outside of work. Tobias is a proud family man, believes in maintaining a balance between work, family, and community. Always looking for ways to continue growing and giving back to the greater good today. He's an active member of anchor Hilliard number two, where you have served as junior warden and Tobias and campus, you both, the two of you met through the Masonic family while campus was serving as grandmaster. Correct? Correct. I met Kempis through, actually, my cousin. when my interest came up to learn more about Freemasonry. My cousin, who was a member of the Order of Eaton Star, she got me in contact with Kempis, who was then, at that time, the Grand Master in Minnesota. and I reached out, um, to get more information. And when we talked, um, on a weekly basis and, uh, went over the, the, the process of becoming a Mason here in Minnesota, got, got me a petition. And, uh, I guess the rest was history and started degrees from there. And you've just transitioned into entrepreneurship. How is running your own company, logistics and trucking? It's a task, um, but I love it. I wouldn't change it for the world. It's, uh, it's given me more balance, um, in being able to be with my family more. Um, not having to, you know, go inside of a, uh, an office and, uh, be committed to that job specifically and, you know, help someone else build their empire. And I'm helping to do that. I'm my own empire for my family. Um, I mean, I'm my own boss. I can leave when I want to leave and work when I want to work. So that's been great. And you can leave work and be on a podcast recording in the middle of a workday, which I appreciate. And I thought of something also that a couple years ago, I worked for Robert Half International. I was a recruiter. I had messaged you on LinkedIn. I didn't know you at the time, but your background was something for which my team was trying to find the best candidates out there. And you and I exchanged a few messages. I think you had taken an opportunity elsewhere and then fast forward a couple of years, you and I crossed paths at a Masonic event. that was fun to, to relive that in that random interaction of. Uh, we've we've we've we've linked in in professional circles and then the greater Brotherhood of Freemasonry. We cross paths again, Kempis, where do we start? You have quite the schedule, both Masonically, professionally, tell us a bit more about work for you. Well, I'm a four time investigator with the Hennepin County Public Defender's office. I also do private work in the investigative field. I am the director of a mentor program. So working with young men and women, or young boys and girls, is pretty much the most important thing I believe I can do at this period. Growing up, my life was almost, uh, destroyed and it was mentors who kept me and my family together. So, having the opportunity to work with young people and keep them together. on the right path offering guidance and support is like paying it forward for me. Um, masonry, I DJ, I have a number of other endeavors that keeps me focused, excited every day that I wake up. It's, uh, something, uh, fulfilling and purpose filled. Um, I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm not bored. I haven't had a bored day in the past 2025 years. Tell us a bit more about a mentor in your life that you look back on and maybe didn't realize the impact that person was having on your life at the time. And now in hindsight, you realize, wow, that was powerful. And maybe it was even an unintentional type of mentor. I've had in my entire life. I'm dyslexic. I have another disability that I don't talk about much, but I performed very poorly in high school. There was a woman by the name of Miss Jacobson who encouraged me in spite of my poor behavior, who encouraged me in spite of my reading and learning disabilities. I didn't realize the impact she had on my life until I made it to college. And I made it to college through a general college program where I had to repeat college level coursework while, excuse me, high school level coursework while in college. And there was an individual by the name of Leroy Gardner who assumed a father figure for me. And then Lutalo Torre, who is still a mentor of mine to this day, who controlled and helped me understand my, my energy, my fervor. I will go overboard I would be impulsive. I was angry. Coming into an understanding of who I was as a black man in America, I, through accusations and unfair criticism on others, whites, um, other people of color even, um, immigrants to this country, and that whole process of helping me understand through challenging my thoughts, who Making me prove why I hold the beliefs that I hold. And then I ran into entrepreneurial, uh, mentors. And my imam today, Imam Akram El Amin, out of Masjid An Nur in north side of Minneapolis, is a, is a figure in my life that holds me accountable for who I am, what I say I'm about. another, uh, person who served as a father figure for me, um, while my father was in and out of prison, uh, these individuals pretty much helped me become who I am. And I should not forget my drill sergeant. Um, I, I had three drill sergeants, but one drill sergeant, drill sergeant Diggs had a very, very personal impact on me. And although I've been out of the military since 2014, I still will recognize all three of my drill sergeants on site. I recognize their voice if I heard it and the lessons they taught me, um, still resonate and I still practice them daily. Those are three names that any veteran will never forget of the drill sergeant persuasion of, uh, full contact counseling and motivating beyond what anyone believes they're. Current capability of completing a task might be on that mentoring front sometimes we associate that term with someone fixing someone's problems or being in a capacity of Manipulating the circumstances for someone but at its core podcast that mentoring is relationship building It's not necessarily We can't fix each other's issues, but at the very least we can sit down with one another and empathize give support and help one another through the roller coaster of our daily lives. I was in my 20s and 30s still being mentored, still being taught like a father would teach a son. still being challenged, still being held accountable, having the mirror placed in my face, challenging why I do what I do, why I believe what I believe. Where does it come from? How authentic and correct is it? Uh, and that still goes on the day, uh, with my ma'am. I love it. It's, I would not be the person that I am today. Uh, and I'm proud of who I am today. I'm proud of what I've come through and how I've grown. I'm Uh, wasn't always this way, and if it were not for those, uh, men and, uh, two women in my life, I wouldn't be who I am today. There's also something to be said about mentoring that could be learning from someone younger than us. It doesn't always have to be a case of this venerable older person. That has some of that influence or effect that it goes both ways of there could be someone significantly younger than us that could provide that perspective of life. Of learning of not being stuck in our ways as we get older that really does have a multidimensional aspect to that. Tobias, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I agree in terms of mentorship, at least for me personally. early on, uh, like we spoke about, um, I went to Washburn High School, my first mentor who actually I accredit, um, to giving me, uh, my voice, uh, as a gentleman by the name of James Smith. he came to me one day, like, Tomas, you have a very profound voice in, in, in your writing. He was an English, uh, teacher at the time, and I believe he still is. Um, and he signed me up for actually, uh, um, a poetry contest, um, uh, for Washburn. And I ended up going so far as region, uh, winning the regional contest. Um, and I actually just wrote him, um, back in when I graduated college back in 2015 to, to accredit him that and giving me a voice and giving me that confidence to, uh, speak on different platforms and, um, be able to mentor other, other individuals. Uh, and move forward in life as a, a, a speaker or a mentor in terms of whether that be youth or, uh, my fellow brothers. Isn't that amazing how some of the most subtle influences have resulted in something so powerful for seemingly everyone that someone didn't necessarily set out to say, Hey, I'm going to be your mentor and I'm going to guide you through X, Y, and Z. portion of school or of life or whatever that looks like, yet it was just that consistent, slow, sustainable, It's important. Um, very important. I I've said this on this podcast like three times now, but holding me accountable, challenging Why I do what I do, why I believe what I believe are the type of mentoring techniques and tactics that my mentors use for me. Just being present and they kind of watch from a distance and they keep their distance until they need to be present and then they withdraw again and watch and they come back in when they need to and they withdraw and watch and it's gotten to a point where they no longer need to come in in that capacity and we're like peers now. But at that point, a new mentor, uh, appears and brings me to the next level. So yeah, just being present, being available, and they don't, you don't say, well, I'm gonna be your mentor. No, it's just the relationships that's developed, the, the, the care, um, and the focus and the attention that they give. And that plays such a huge role in our Masonic journey that we talk about things like brotherhood, connection, and mentoring, and sometimes In a digital world, those concepts seem almost abstract, that we've now equated an online virtual experience is somehow equating to connection, but it's not, it's hollow, and it's so important, and that's something we talk about on a regular basis on these podcast episodes, The human connection. We are in the relationship business, and especially as Freemasons, that Lodge experience, I like to say, is an analog experience inside or away from the digital world. It doesn't mean we don't use technology. Of course we do. But, the more we can connect as friends, as brothers, and as humans, even outside of the Lodge in our communities, is so crucial right now. And, What can we do to encourage that ongoing mentoring friendship that we are in the relationship business as humans and more, especially as Freemasons and within the Masonic family. I'd like to get your perspectives a bit more on the history of Prince Hall. Prince Hall was an American abolitionist and leader in the free black community in Boston. He founded Prince Hall Freemasonry and lobbied for education rights for African American children. Prince Hall Masons continually seek racial and social justice for their members and for the wider community. Seeking dignified, just, and fair treatment as equal citizens. What else would you tell someone, Mason or non Mason, as far as more perspective on Prince Hall, who he was, and the organization through the years? Prince Hall had a good friend named Crispus Attucks. And if you know the history of our founding, Uh, Crispus Attucks was, uh, killed during a conflict while the, the, the, what the English government occupied, the, uh, states. Prince Hall recognized that the Freemasons had an audience. They had a voice. They had prominence. There was a desire to become a Freemason so that he can begin to talk and preach about the needs of blacks in the colonies. But at that time, in the 1700s, um, blacks and whites would not, uh, be allowed to be in the same Masonic Hall together and they would not allow him to become a Mason. And it was a, uh, military regiment, an Irish military regiment who, uh, gave, um, Prince Hall the, the initiation and he became a Mason and when the war for independence was over and that regiment left, there was no opportunity for, uh, Prince Hall to expand and grow and pursue his, uh, endeavors. He had to petition the Grand Lodge of England to have the rights to, to move and, uh, function as a Masonic body. Once the Grand Lodge of Prince Hall was founded, Prince Hall did more than just advocate for education for young people. He petitioned George Washington to admit men of color in the Continental Army. George Washington did oblige that request, by the way. Um, he distinguished himself at Bunker Hill, where he led the entire Lodge membership in support of Governor Brown during the rebellion of Daniel Shea and his crew. You can, um, look at the history about that. Uh, Prince Hall petitioned, uh, Boston City Council to fund education for black children, and when they denied it, he opened up his home. And he talked out of his home. He also petitioned the Massachusetts state legislature to free all slaves in Massachusetts and to grant them citizenship rights. he also served as the special deputy to the Grand Lodge of England and was armed with the charge of traveling throughout the colonies to determine the number of subordinate Caucasian lodges. So the lodge and body of masons who would not allow him to become a brother, the Grand Lodge of England. deputized, uh, the Prince Hall to go around and actually, uh, calculate the numbers. Uh, he also was the, uh, first black leader in New England to set the stage for, uh, generations to come. He did a lot more than just educate and exercise the voice. He was truly a brother to many of the, uh, Blacks in that area who needed the mentorship, who needed the guidance, uh, who needed the assistance, who, uh, needed the, um, the relationships and the networking. he set that up and it was a very, very key and very instrumental to unifying Blacks in the entire, eastern part of the United States. I think it's important to add, um, about our brother, uh, Prince Hall is, uh, his earlier work, um, to help build his social, capital was actually, he was a skilled leather worker. he, as we spoke about, he was a former slave, um, I believe it's, um, his owner at the time was named William Hall. Um, who taught him the skill of leatherworking and he taught many of his, uh, followers and people within that community, especially the African American community, that skill of leatherworking. he actually owned his own store. So he was an entrepreneur at that time. So he was very, um, prominent within the African American community, in bridging relationships. Uh, uh, yes, he was an educator, but he's also a skilled laborer as well. It was the networking, his voice, his ability to form thought, his logic, his reasoning. He earned a reputation and then there were many prominent men within the black community at that time who sought him out, uh, ministers, other tradesmen, as well as white leaders in the community. Um, reaching out to him and asking favors and, uh, introducing individuals to each other. And that natural, uh, because there was limited opp opportunities for blacks at that time, just the, the, the, the natural tendency to, to network and to build and to grow and develop a system to be able to address the needs of the people at that time. So it was the, it was the needs, it was the time, it was the networking and his ability to articulate the thoughts and the needs of the people that earned him the prominence and the notoriety. how did things then advance to get to that more of an organized level of Prince Hall Freemasonry in the United States? was, it was organic. understanding, because remember he was commissioned by the United Grand Lodge of England to count the subordinate lodges throughout the colonies. So he understood the structure and the, the jurisdictional formation. So when individuals from Pennsylvania came, when individuals from, uh, Vermont and the other colonies came, he understood the importance of sending leadership back to different parts and then those leaders, uh, uniting under one Grand Lodge and then expanding and growing out. Because the needs that the people of the black community needed at that time was, it was vast. So to have different people in different areas being able to address those needs, becoming a mutual aid society, becoming an advocacy society, it was just a natural tendency to grow to meet the needs of the people. during that time, I think it's also important to note, um, Uh, as Brother Kempis said, the need of our people at that time, because, um, when the, the regiment, the Irish regiment left, they were granted a permit, but that permit was only valid to bury its members. It was not a, uh, permit to make new masons. So at that time, they say, hey, How are we going to make more masons in this area if we don't have a charter? So that brought about the need. Okay. Let's petition the Grand Lodge of England to see if we can make more members. And under that, um, I believe, um, correct me if I'm wrong, African Lodge 459 was formed. Um, and at that time it was three lodges that. Rants from that. It was a lodging in Providence, Rhode Island, I believe Philadelphia and as well as I'm in Boston, Massachusetts, and it was kind of a wildfire. And as you said, it was natural was organic and everything just kind of blossomed from there. It was, it was, it was beautiful. And now it's over maybe 5000 grand lodges and just within the United States or the world. Excuse me. What is the number of Prince Hallmasons either in the U. S. or worldwide? 2014, it says there are over 1. 7 million Prince Hall Freemasons and Eastern Stars, approximately 96, 000 lodges and chapters in 44 jurisdictions throughout the United States. Not to mention the two United Supreme Councils, Golden Circles, Shriners, and Brothers and Sisters of the United States in the West Indies, Canada, Liberia, and West Africa are all doing great work, bread and masonry. And ironically, um, given the, the earlier history of Prince Hall was formed out of, I mean, the, the military, the Irish regiment, there are also Prince Hall military lodges. Really? Yes, yes. I actually, um, the gentleman who actually, you know, I spoke about earlier, who was my first introduction, he's a member of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated and a Freemason in Prince Hall. And he's actually stationed right now. His name is Eric Clark, um, in South Korea. I believe that lodge's name is Claiborne Lodge number 61. It's, which is a military based lodge, um, which is quite ironic. Wow, And in thinking about the legacy of Prince Hall and The impact, the hard work, the dedication. I'm sure it many times would have been so easy to just say these obstacles are just too much. Fast forwarding to today, we ask all the time, how are we going to come together as humans, as citizens, as brothers in a meaningful way? And I keep going back to September of 2022, when Jim Cole, Walt Wheeler, Corey Hawkins, and Melvin Bazemore signed that statement of unity between the Supreme Councils of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry. A true commitment to come together. Uh, and collaborate in a very powerful, meaningful way that was on display that day. And I, I'm motivated by that, even two years later, that that wasn't just saying all the right things or a photo op, but there's a really meaningful progress strides happening out there. When I received my 33rd, there were sovereign grand inspector generals from all four jurisdictions, the Northern and Southern jurisdiction of Prince Hall, the Northern jurisdiction of mainstream, uh, Scottish Rite Freemasonry, who did work, gave lectures. The ritual was presented by representatives from all four of those, um, orients. The work that we do here in Minnesota and the work that I've witnessed, uh, throughout the states that I've traveled to doing work for this order. the unity, the brotherhood, the interest, the desire, and the work ethic is actually taking place. It's not talked about as much, um, I don't know why. Uh, it's not caught on camera as often, again, I don't know why, but those who are doing the work and those who are interacting, they see it, we feel it, we know it. Uh, we're here today, Tobias and I are here today, this Grand Lodge, Minnesota's Grand Lodge, has been great for me. We've done work together, your, your current Grand Master has actually delivered, uh, lectures as well as degree work in Anchor Hilliard Lodge and other Prince Hall Lodges here in Minnesota. Thank you. So the brotherhood, the, the working together, the unity is, is, is well here in Minnesota and throughout the, um, Midwest region and many of the states that I've gone to. We talked to Tony Kral on this podcast a few weeks ago and briefly discussed Grand Lodge of Minnesota and Prince Hall Grand Lodge, and we work together. We do a lot of things together. We'd like to see us do more together in terms of lodge visits, There exists out there. I think some misunderstandings from masons in general that don't know where they can visit a Prince Hall Lodge or are they able to do so or how we can continue to work together and collaborate in a meaningful way out in the community at the lodge level. Can any mason visit a Prince Hall Lodge that's in good standing? Yes, any Mason within good standing with their Grand Lodge can visit any Prince Hall Lodge. Um, so there's a, I mean, like we spoke about, there is a disconnect and a lot of people don't know that. Um, so I'm, I'm happy that we're here to discuss such a matter. We're from two separate jurisdictions, but we are exactly the same. One may say sneakers, the other say tennis shoes, one say tomato, the other says tomato. There may be some slight, um, differences in the words that we use, but we are exactly the same. The, the rituals are the same, the meanings are the same, the lectures are the same, and as long as you are a member and good standing of your lodge here in Minnesota, you can visit a Prince Art Lodge. And I wanted to make a point in terms of our relationship from the Prince Hall as well as the Minnesota Engine Free and Accepted. Actually, your current Grand Master, um, conducted my second degree inside of our lodge. Really? So he'll forever have a special place in my heart for sure. Yeah, he did a wonderful job. So, um, that just goes to say our connections and our relationships that we have. He is quite the ritualist, Oh my goodness. I was just like, there's no book. I'm like, what is going on here? This guy is just, it was just clicking. Like, man. You'll never forget that. No, never it's the hugs Yeah, he's a hugger. It is the hug. Sure. I love it. I love it Well, I look forward to working with both of you and our brothers at large to continue doing activities together. We've had some of the new member prospect events out here that Tobias, you and I have overseen some of those and really just spreading the cement of brotherly love and friendship to on a greater scale or new potential members for our existing members that in a way that is inspiring, hopefully, as we're in this world now that there's so much seeking and discussion about unity and working together. And we're, as we all try to battle those, I call them conflict entrepreneurs on social media that would rather see people stay divided and just keep the volume up. I think there's so much opportunity for us to put our core values as masons into action. Stop talking about it. Let's, let's do some things together on all fronts with community engagement, with our ritual, with social events. We had the join or die events here in November, which was, was a tremendous evening of talking about the need for all of us to encourage anyone who's either not a mason or just not involved in something. So, a volunteer capacity to get put the phone down, get out of the house, go out and do something that you're passionate about that is helping the world become a more positive and harmonious place. We need to capture the unity and allow it to go viral. So we're doing a lot of work, but we're keeping it private amongst ourselves. We need to make it public, make it visible. And allow it to go viral. Utilize the social media platforms and show what we do as a body of Freemasons. White, black, or whatever. And allow the narrative to be changed. How do we do that? Again, taking advantage of it whenever we do things jointly. Uh, capture it. Throw it on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, podcasts, books, uh, uh, print journalism. Talk about it more as we're bringing in new members, uh, allow it to be a part of the orientation process, uh, make it a part of the trust boards that the Worshipful Masters put together, encourage our grandmasters to make it a part of their agenda, there's jurisdictional agenda to do things together and do it publicly. Um, there's a lot of great work we do, and again, it's not about us, it's about the people we serve. Now, the brotherhood that we do behind closed doors is about us, but our community work, our community involvement is about the people we serve. So make it less about us, more about the people, allow it to go out and allow them to see. They shouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's a great point and it's very motivating because the coalescing around that within our organization and the greater Masonic family is authentic. We're doing the work, we are coming together, and we are gathered around things like meaningful friendship, community engagement, giving back to the greater good, and doing so in a harmonious way of, I like to say that we have as Masons the playbook for a happier and healthier and more fulfilled life and world out there. And then sometimes I wonder that's the hamster wheel. It keeps me awake at three in the morning. Am I naive to think that? No. One thing I failed to mention is good things don't sell. Happy things don't sell. Misery, violence, ugliness, division. Those are the things that sell. So, we can do all the good, and we can make it go viral, we can talk about it, it could be present. It's not as memorable as those destructive, vile, violent, divisive things. So, we should just continue to do the work, and as people's appetite for goodness grows, then they will begin to see and notice what we do. I think a lot of organizations, not just in masonry, can learn a lot from what we do here in Minnesota. I think we are, just to big up us, the standard of relationship in terms of Prince Hall as well as the Grand Lodge of Minnesota. We do a lot of great work together and it's a beautiful thing. I think we display it a lot more than what we do in broadcasting on a national stage. I couldn't agree more and I'm really grateful to have you both here today to talk about really the call to action of continuing to do the work, not just proclaiming that we align ourselves with a particular ideology or a way of thinking, but taking that a step further and going out and doing the work together making a positive impact on a world that needs it more than ever. There's something about Anchor Hilliard Lodge that I'm proud of. We came up with a definition of what it means to be an Anchor Hilliard man. It's a, it's something that we constantly have to remind ourselves of. It's work that we constantly have to do. You know, the human emotion and the human endeavor gets involved sometimes and we get distracted from it. But. I want to share what Anchor Hilliard members classify an Anchor Hilliard man as. So an Anchor Hilliard man has an obligation to relieve his brother when they're down. He has an obligation to be an example to the greater community. He has an obligation to seek out and check in on his brother when he's absent. He has an obligation to be forthcoming and honest. He has an obligation to be respectful. He has a obligation to be resourceful to his brother. Resourceful financially, emotionally, and physically. He has the obligation to be vulnerable with his brother. And the obligation to be available for his brother when they reach out and ask for support. These are obligations, these are the things that we do that no one else would know about. It's, it's a one on one, it's a, a group, it's a, a constant reminder that we give each other and those are the things, that's how it grows. It starts with that small nucleus and as the lodge grows and this type of relationship becomes a habit and then it grows and then those individuals begin to do it, not only with their lodge brothers, but with their close family, the nuclear family, then their extended family. Then their coworkers, then their neighbors, then it spreads throughout the community. And now these other individuals are wondering what's so special about you? Why have you changed? What is it? And then they talk about Freemasonry. Now you got people wanting to be Freemasons and they come in and they take on the obligation so it grows and grows and grows. So we talk about how can we make it go viral, how can we make it something substantive. It starts with the small nucleus and as we practice it. And make it a part of our human makeup and our daily actions. It grows because people who know us are affected by us. And that affection grows like a virus. And next thing you know you have a whole society behaving like an angry idiot brother. It's the difference between being a mason in your heart or just being a member of a lodge. Right. Kempis Muhammad, Tobias Hill, thank you so much for being guests today. We look forward to seeing you again soon, somewhere out there in our Masonic family. I hope our paths cross again. Yes, sir. Thank you for having us. This has been another episode of Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries.