Episode 76. Progress must "pro-gress"(ft. Sujit Varma)

”Does Masonry complement you, or does it define you?”

This week we sit down with Dr. Sujit Varma and cover a wide variety of topics: the psychology of complaining, AI’s influences in our lives, and how to bridge the gap between embracing technology and retaining authentic human connection. 

”Imagine like 500 years ago when Gutenberg invented the printing press, I'm sure there was some parent then who said, ‘…oh my God, books are gonna rot your mind because you spend too much time reading!’”

Sujit owns a psychiatry practice and is a Past Master of Lake Harriet Lodge No. 277 in Minneapolis. 

Transcript

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Why do we love to complain? Okay, that's a really loaded question. It can go several ways. So now I wanna say that I'm probably not, uh, high on the complaining side and I'm probably, you know, putting myself in a pedestal. But yeah, I think we like to complain because. You know, we can never be satisfied. I think human beings are always, there's this desire to be creative and innovative. So that's a good thing. So no matter how successful the government is or society is, we always want something more. And how do you get that? You always complain. So, you know, like say, let's use example of the internet, you know, now we have 5G or six GI, I still hear, I have my kids complain and say, how come you're so slow? I mean, come on. I mean, 10 years ago I had to do the a OL dial up and they don't remember all that stuff. They don't even know the sound effect, do they? Oh yeah. They don't remember that. And I can imagine, like my parents, uh, you know, they did a lot of stuff that I probably never did. Like, you know, they knew how to do woodworking or fix a car. Now we are complaining when we go to the car dealership and say, oh, this guy's taking so much time. Why is he charging so much money? So I think it's just a. It's just part of our thing. No matter how much we achieve, the target keeps moving and I think that's a positive thing. It's a sign of evolution. We want to progress. And you know that saying no progress must progress. So I guess complaining could be a good thing too. I was recently in a coffee shop waiting for a friend and brother to arrive. I. Everywhere around me, every conversation was so negative, it was just loud and not a single person in that moment seemed to be sharing something they were happy about, that something good had happened. We'll get to that in greater detail in a little bit. Our guest today was born in India. Grew up in Kuwait where he lived until having finished high school. He then returned to India for higher education and went to medical school there after medical school relocated to Vancouver where he did a fellowship in psychiatry at the University of British Columbia, which was followed up with a psychiatry residency at the University of Texas in Houston. After Texas. It was a relocation from the Lone Star state to the North Star State. He lived in Hibbing for three years and then moved south to the Twin Cities where he has lived for 16 years. He is also a pass master of Lake Harriet Lodge, number 2, 7 7 in Minneapolis. Welcome, Sujit Varma. Welcome, Reid. Thanks for having me. You own a private practice clinic called Sci-fi TMS in Edina, and you practice as a psychiatrist? Yeah. Tell us more. Yeah, and I'm glad you pronounce it right. So it's spelled P-S-Y-F-I. And it sounds like sci-fi, almost like science fiction, but we are trying to not make a pun on that. It's psych psychiatric fidelity. Acronym, but we do do science fiction, uh, fact not fiction. So, uh, if you wanna know what the practice, yes, it's like a regular clinic. Um, we see people with, uh, behavior problems, mental health issues. We prescribe, we prescribe medications, we offer therapy. We also offer something called TMS. It's in the title Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, not the Metal Society or Toyota Motor Services. Uh, it's a newer technique to treat, uh, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, smoking cessation, anxiety, migraines among other things. And we also offer other treatments like ketamine for, again, treatment resistant depression among other options. What are some of the best or worst areas that you focus on that you, that you have to by virtue of someone's condition or when they come in for treatment and for help? Well, the best would be what I would let, definitely wanna see all the time, but they're so healthy, I can only see them once year. So that would be somebody with a mild case of anxiety. And anxiety is the commonest, uh, medical condition after I think. Osis, which is bad breath or gingivitis. Uh, so those patients probably just need to have seen once year they do some kind of therapy. Yoga, tai Chi, they're on a low dose of medication. Those are the best cases. Worst cases, we talk about the classic psychiatric diagnosis like schizophrenia, which is a chronic, debilitating mental illness or bipolar, can also be pretty crippling. Some of them are on social security disability, but the worst kind of patient, and I'm not trying to judge anybody, is somebody with some kinds of disorder because. Remember your question about complaining. I mean, these are patients that no matter what I might try to do for them, they're always complaining about my service or the cost of the medications, or why are they doing the therapy? Sometimes the complaining, the procrastinating or reveling in maybe making a competition out of that perceived Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm always up for a challenge. I never. Try to get rid of a patient just because they are, pardon my use of this word, but a pain in the neck. I mean, they are seeing me because they have challenging problems and I'm probably the last person who can help them. I, in fact, I'm probably the best friend. Most of these people are divorced or have very low social support. They're lonely. They're in a group home. So, uh, they can complain to me, but I don't take it personal. And I try my best to. Offer them something that, uh, you know, is suitable to the condition with my means. Of course. How much have you seen anxiety increase as something you're addressing in the last few years? Is it really, is that on the rise? Is that the top? Yeah, like I said, anxiety is probably the commonest psychological condition. It's not necessarily that they would come to somebody like me, a professional. Most people will treat anxiety with their own versions like. You can go to a bar, have a few drinks. You can, in Minnesota, it's legal to smoke cannabis and you know, go to a gummy store. So there's a lot of non-healthy ways to deal with anxiety, and only even it starts getting worse and worse. Do they come to me? But what I've seen, if you want to. Have an academic answer. Since COVID, there's been an increase in two conditions. One is attention disorder or what we call A DHD. There's been an increased awareness of that, and I have a whole theory about that. And even an increased awareness of autism is that again, because of we are just being more sensitive to it and we are better ways of diagnosing it, or is it false representation through things like social media? Which can be informative, but also can give you false information. What do you attribute the attention deficit to? Is it one thing? Is it several factors playing into that? Yeah. Good question. So there's a whole, uh. You know, multiple factors that can affect that. Now, if you are working on a farm or you live in a rural place where there's less stimulation from social media, wifi, stuff like that, listening to a podcast like this, you probably, I. May not have a DHD if you have it, because you are just busy milking a cow and doing physical stuff. Nothing wrong with that. But now the pressure of high school in urban areas, getting to college, getting low, I mean, it's just the pressure is so high on young people these days that A DHD will start becoming more and noticeable and you are pressured to perform. At a higher level than what you need to. It's just times they are changing, as Bob Dylan would've said. The other thing also is, again, there's so many distractions out there. Like now we have Netflix and YouTube and Hulu. Even. I have difficulty keep you up with all that. I got so many shows I gotta watch. The other thing also is post COVID, we became a little bit more sedentary, so guess what we did? We did a lot of Zoom meetings. Now that also could increase A DHD. You're just sitting in front of a camera. You know, eight hours a day versus, you know, you're, you're driving to work, you are going out. So there is that thing where you are more sedentary. You could become more A DHD just by virtue of your lifestyle choices. Also, awareness of A DHD, again, through social media. Uh, but there is also a false thing, like TikTok sometimes just promotes a DHD, like, it's like having anxiety, but it's not, oh, so. Oh, they, they do. They, uh, I haven't watched some of these videos, but I've been told through some of my colleagues that they are promoting things like, just take a pill for A DHD. And the problem with it is those pills are highly regulated. They're called stimulants. Examples include Adderall or Ritalin, and some of them are converted into drugs like meth or ice. So there is a correlation between a controlled substance that is meant for A DHD and a drug that can be abused. Just to get euphoric or high. How often do you encounter a client? A patient who makes the realization that I have a cocktail or two, this is basically like ingesting a carcinogen. Well, it is a carcinogen. It's going to have the opposite effect initially. It feels good. Yeah. Feels maybe even out a little bit. Sure. But, but long that, that's not a great avenue. Oh yeah. And I get many, use the word carcinogen. You probably meant something that causes cancer. Uh, maybe you meant more like narcotic or something like that, that has an abuse potential. So yeah, I have patients that, um, I. I would say maybe once or twice a month at least. I have some random patient who says, oh, I'm here to see you for anxiety. And I said, okay, sure. Let's talk about that and I'm gonna give you this medication for anxiety. He said, oh, by the other, by the way, my, I spoke to my neighbor the other day and he gave me this drug called, and I knew what he is gonna say called Adderall, and it just took care of anxiety. And I thought, okay, you know what? That doesn't help anxiety. That just made you feel a little euphoric. And maybe you have a DHD, but now we talk about a different thing. So I do have people like that. They just do their own thing. They go on Doc to Google, uh, TikTok, Reddit. And so that's a problem. I am competing with all those other, uh, false prophets, if you wanna call it on social media. And it's very hard because people sometimes believe them rather than somebody with a degree. So that is there. The self-diagnosis on WebMD and otherwise is a real thing, but an obvious challenge. Reddit and Dr. Google. Yeah. Yeah. Those things that, uh, you mentioned COVID briefly, and it's come up frequently about our society's battle with loneliness. I think it was in 2023, the US Department of Health and Human Services put out a statement. About society's current condition. That said, we're in a public health crisis of loneliness, of lack of connection and isolation. There's a friendship recession these days. Mm-hmm. Wall Street Journal put out last year. A report and a statement. One in five men in the US who are not married or in a relationship said they did not have any close friends at all. None. That's sad. Yeah. Did you, did you join a fraternity like ours in, That is actually something on my list of for us to talk about today is I've, in my travels, have shared. Replica. It's an app. It's spelled R-E-P-L-I-K-A. Okay. It's labeled as the AI Companion. The AI Companion. Who cares? Always here to listen and talk, always on your side. Now, this app known as Replica, it's used basically as a virtual friend or a sibling, and in my travels, when I ask, guess how many users are on Replica it, it's something like 25 million. Oh. People wanting to be heard. Basically just wanting someone to talk to. And when we, and when we think about that, the takeaway, countless men, people in the world recognize what we do as Freemasons they are approaching lodges with interest in possibly learning. They want to be around others of integrity. Values. True. A commitment to community engagement. The tenets of our profession, as we say in Freemasonry or the, the foundation of our values, our core values are being sought out now more than ever in this isolated world. Yeah, I think this is a great time to be a Freemason. In fact, uh, I think that, uh, it wasn't for Freemasonry when I would be like that. Looking for replica ai or does that surprise you? 25 million people that use this virtual. Friends. Yeah. And I mean, I'm surprised, but I'm also not surprised. I just think that's the way society's going. I mean, we are reaching this phase where even me, what I do, I, I've heard of AI therapy, so I'm not a therapist, I'm a prescriber, I'm a md, but I have colleagues that do just talk therapy and there is a possibility that in the future their job would be obsolete. You could have an, you know, like a. Like an AI generated image that looks like a real person doing therapy and being so, you know, it's, you could have somebody trained. I know they say that, but you need a human being for the real empathy and the warmth. But oh my gosh. I mean, the way technology's going, there's a lot of things that, uh, it's kinda like, uh, you remember, I mean, I'm dating myself. There was a time when there were three people in the cockpit. Off the plane, there was the pilot, the copilot, and the flight engineer. And now we don't have the flight engineer. I mean, is anybody complaining about it? It's like that. I mean, does anybody even notice? Yeah. Didn't even notice. Yeah. Yeah. And even in medicine, there's a lot of things that, uh, have gone away. A lot of people don't know is that, and I know they see, oh, I, I would like to see somebody of flesh in blood, but guess what's happening now? My patients are not always seeing me in person. They're seeing me through telehealth. It could be all the way in International Falls, three and a half hours away from Edina, but they're seeing me now. There is an advantage to that They are getting, if you want to call a high quality care from the Twin Cities in the in International Falls, I could even send them a prescription to a local Walgreens Inn. They're not, they're not wasting any time driving down, coming back. There's no anxiety there. They can get good quality care where they are. And gone are the days where the doctor got on his horse or buggy and drove to somebody's house, did something, and then the, the lady at the house would make a pie and say, here's your copay. You know? Right. No interest is back. So, uh, that is, you know, it was so nice back then, like Little House on the Prairie or whatever. But now we are reaching this phase where we are slowly isolating. We are in these jobs where, uh, you know, we can just sit in our, the basement of a house and I. Even be the CEO of a company for all I know. And, that's where Masonry would be a great thing. I, I, I think apart from my marriage and my kids, masonry is the best thing that I've ever done in my life. And every time I walk into lodge, even I haven't seen a brother for several years, he come and say, Hey, Suge, how is it? And I feel so, and when I come back home, nobody wants to gimme a hug and, you know, embrace me as much at these brothers. So it's very exciting. And in lodge also people. Stretch the head. So maybe masonry is the solution, at least for the brothers who are listening to this. When we are in the relationship business, we are a face-to-face organization. If, if technology takes over completely in the fraternal setting, that will not be good. Yeah. I know there's a fine line between amassing. Books and information through AI to leverage that technology for medical treatment or psychological treatment for a number of different things. Yeah, but that must be a fine line between technology versus speaking to the machine when you, when you're doing a telehealth. Appointment with someone in International Falls, it's still you, it's still Dr. Jit. It's not just speaking to an algorithm that's Oh yeah, de definitely like a bot. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, is that where this might be going someday? Yeah. So it's kinda like, uh, a game of chess. Now I heard there's something called Deep thought or something, or, uh. Watson, there was a thing where, you know, in jeopardy he could answer every single question, and then there was a thing that, so now what if you have all the medical algorithms inputted into this AI and somebody says, Hey, doctor ai, I have this headache and I got this. And then the algorithm just runs through, oh, you've got this kind of migraine just based on your symptoms. I'm not saying that I'm, uh, I'm for it or against it, but it is coming in the next five, 10 years, it'll be more common. In fact, even in my profession now, there is an AI where you just look at the screen and the AI will tell you, tell the, so the AI can be used to help the physician. It'll tell you what kind of neurological prompt that is just by looking at the patient's face. For example, there's a condition in psychiatry called TD Tardive Dyskinesia, which is a abnormal movement of the lips and the eyes, and usually we as human beings, we might overlook it while we are doing the interview, but an a computer or an AI would look at that person's face while you're doing the interview and say, Hey, he blinked only 12 times a minute, and that. Means that you might want to look at whether he has that condition. Tardive dyskinesia. So it's, uh, so AI can assist us just like how we have x-rays and MRIs to help the physician or, so I don't wanna say that AI should be, you know, banned or something. I think it'll, it'll help, but unfortunately we don't keep up with it. It is something that's very hard to, you know, to overcome. Kind of like. There are certain jobs that are not there around anymore, like a hood. There are no meter MAs. Have you heard that term? I, I can date myself. Yeah. Okay, I remember that. Yes. Yeah, because it's all, you just go there, you pay your credit card, stuff like that. There are a few jobs. You don't see the milkman coming to your house and delivering milk. I mean, do people miss that guy? I mean, unless you live in a rural place. So it is something that we have to live with. Uh, but then they's still masonry 300 years plus. recently, a friend of ours picked up their daughter at college. The year ended, and our friends shared that they were in the dorm and they couldn't believe how quiet all the doors were closed every room, each resident in this dorm? Mm-hmm. Or. Very different than when you and I were in college in that common area. Outside of the dorm rooms is where everyone congregated and talked. Probably wasted a lot of time. Should have been studying, doing, yeah, more productive and constructive things. But even in the college experience, our friends were just. Shocked at how they assumed that the whole floor had vacated. Yeah. And everyone was still there. Yeah. But nobody was out socializing. Mm-hmm. We're so even in that, I don't know if that's post COVID, if that's just the way of the world. Now we are on our device all the time. When you, when I, we were watching the NBA playoffs and they go to commercial. Everyone is on their phone. Like, why are you even at a game? It's true spending an exorbitant amount of money to be there when everyone's staring at their phone. Yeah, no, that's a good observation. I remember like 10, 15 years ago, I, uh, I actually once caught a Greyhound bus seven in Texas and it was like for four hours. And I remember talking to the guy who was with me, he was like a veteran. He was, uh. I think he was in the Gulf War and I, I, I remember that conversation so well. But nowadays, like when you're in a plane, do you talk to the guy next to you? You're probably watching, uh, you know, something on the back of the chair in front of you. You got your wifi again. Uh, I think we just have a shorter attention span. Again, that's about a DHD. We are, uh, human beings are just changing the way we are, you know, push button, get what I want. Yeah. And we want quick immediate gratification now. I recently heard an influencer author type talk about impatience, speaking of, and he shared that yes, a lot of people these days are really, really impatient, and he himself admitted, he's impatient. He doesn't want to preach about it, but it's, it's become worse. Because we're so used to the power of our phones, our computers, we think everything, we're expecting everything to happen quickly and instantly. You mentioned this earlier, if we have to wait five seconds to get a piece of information on the internet, oh my god, it's taking so long. Yeah. But he made the point 20, 30 years ago you would've had to go to the library. Mm-hmm. Would've taken an hour to do something like that. So you, you learned how to develop patients to find things. People are so impatient because it's all so quick and easy and powerful. Now he made the point. You want to be able to slow things down though. You want to have the ability to say, if this is gonna take me an hour to learn, if I have to spend time practicing studying, if it's tedious that I'm okay with that. He talked about embracing that pain that's involved. It's funny that delaying his pain, but learning anything, developing any type of skill involves the pain, I suppose, of patients. You have kids in school? Yeah. How do they, is it, how do you manage that with, with that instance? I don't wanna wait for this. I want it now. Oh. And I can just again, look back up on your own childhood. I'm sure my parents, at that time, television was just becoming a big thing and they would say, oh. I think television is gonna rot his mind. And then now we have, YouTube is gonna rot your mind. Or TikTok, and I'm just making a joke here, but imagine like 500 years ago when Gutenberg invented the book or printing press, I'm sure there was some parent then who told, he said, oh my God, books are gonna rot your mind because you spent too much time. Yeah. Spending time reading. So it depends on what you mean. Now again, I'm not against technology. There is good and bad. We are becoming more efficient, like you said about the library incident. Like I remember you'd have to go to, I remember once looking up, I was trying to research, for some reason I was interested in John f Kennedy's assassination, and this is like 15 years ago when I was in Vancouver. I went to the library and I looked up something that we don't even see these days. It was like a newspaper archive that was on like a microfiche. Microfiche, yeah. Yeah. And I had to see them. I saw them, I thought, wow. I think it was a Dallas Tribune or something, and he said, November 23rd and all, and I thought, boy, if I had the original copy of this newspaper, that would be a great thing to have. But now guess what? You just go on Google, go to Wikipedia. You can see a picture, you can read about it. It's like at your fingertips and you don't, I don't know, I don't get the satisfaction that I got by me going to the library and doing it, but that's me. Now, my kids probably won't know that because they were not raised that way. They're just raised in the. Internet generation, and they just think like, even if I ask my son something, Hey, what do you think about this? He's always fact checking me. Like he say, Hey, no kidding. That's not what you said, dad. It's according to this. I thought, oh, great. I would not fact check my own parents, but he's fact checking me, so he's putting me on a spot. So, and again, you, you can't believe what's in the internet, but people are fact checking and is it a good thing where there is that efficiency level? Uh. But again, it, you are losing some social skills. Like I said, back in the day, the doctor, his bedside manner would've been impeccable. I mean, he's going in his buggy horse cartt to the la to the house of the patient, well dressed, you know, he's spending time with the patient. Uh, and now we just do it through telehealth where I could be wearing shorts underneath, uh, my right. But the only thing, the top half of my body, and, you know. Uh, so anyway, I'm just saying I don't think it's something that's going to, we can do anything about it. We can really do something about ourselves, be the change that you can be. If I feel there's a lack of social interaction in my life, uh, through work, I go to the lodge and I get all that back. You know? I mean, it's all about balance though. Yeah. We often talk about the Masonic experience as being a uniquely analog experience, and yes, we use technology. Websites, socials, we're using all of the, leveraging that to the best of our ability, but there really is remains to be something to be said about putting our devices away. Sure. And reconnecting as friends and as brothers, and it really is being sought out by a younger generation. I continually have conversations with young men that are interested in finding a strong bond of authentic friendship. They want community engagement. They want to grow and evolve, become a better version of themselves, and as much as they spend time in front of Netflix using the, using AI chat, GPT. Mm-hmm. None of that is replacing that authenticity Oh sure. Of the human to human connection. How big of a challenge in your line of work is procrastination? You see that a lot? Yeah, like, uh, procrastination is, uh, a big deal. Uh, you tell somebody to do something that's for their own health, like something simple like go to the gym, eat right. Uh, and there are a lot of theories, like the mind gut theory, stuff like that. That's all positive. I. And, uh, drink less coffee or something for less. And you can tell them that only so many times. And then you talk to them again after a month and they say, oh, I'm here for my meds. And they say, oh, did you do so and so? Oh yeah, it's on my list. And it's like, I just think, you know, I'm telling this guy how to, uh, or this lady, a person, how to improve their life. But they're getting good advice, in my opinion, from me. But they're not really listening to me. They just want that pharmaceutical thing, which again, is that immediate gratification. So it's almost like even though I'm giving them advice, I'm having job security because these people could be easily cured of their condition if they followed me. Advice, just like the dentist telling you to brush your teeth and floss to avoid cavities, and you kind of do it half far, half-heartedly, and then. He's got a job there because you know, you didn't floss that well, you didn't brush your teeth. So procrastination again, uh, is it because there's too much going on, like the, you don't have enough hours in the day? There's just so much stuff. Even I personally, I like to spend some time in the gym, but then when I come back I gotta catch up on, I. Last of us on max or something. I got this list of things that I, long list. Yeah, long list. And I gotta spend some time with my family. I mean, I make sure that I don't miss that out. And then there's the Masonic thing. Suddenly somebody will say, Hey, do you wanna do the third chamber lecture at an just something? Uh oh. Where do you do them? There's a practice on a weekend or something. You have to balance all that. And I try my best to put masonry there somewhere. But remember there's the cable toe. And it's all there. It's just that, uh, how would you define a cable toe for a listener who is a non mason? Okay, so the cable toe, again, in my opinion, it's, it's a very philosophical term. It's basically this thing that's wound around you when you go through your degrees and it says that it, there's a pull from it. The pool indicates the, your responsibilities and I'm, you can correct me if wrong, like to your family, to your country, to your job, stuff like that. So they say that Masonry should not ever replace that. Now seeing that the minute you become a Mason, the next thing you know, hey, do you want to join the shrine? Do you wanna join the York Rite Scottish Rite? You are inundated with so many things, and if you don't say that secret word no, then you just, the thing is, once you start doing it and you start, you show that you're really good at the de the floor work, and you'll be called more often and you keep seeing this usual suspect. The same guy is always doing this. Uh, so there is a cable toe, but again, I. Are we really respecting the cable toe? Because I feel sometimes that, boy, I mean, people are like pulling me in this way and that way and, uh, I'm still married and all that, but, you know, I wouldn't sacrifice my social life for the sake of masonry. But I feel there are some Bren who might have overstepped their thing and not, uh, well, they're out of, out of balance, out of the Yeah. It's a, and it's a fine line. You don't wanna say no all of the time, but how to achieve that balance between priorities of family. Career for other hobbies. Yeah, yeah. And still staying active within the Masonic experience. So what you said is also interesting. So there is a term that one of my associates, his name is Mike Miller from Lake Heritage Lodge. He told me that, does Masonry compliment you or does it define you? so you could look at it like, is masonry just something you also do or is it a lot of what you do and. I see some brothers who are like super involved. Maybe they just have more time or they're retired. But, uh, I mean, I think it to, to each zone, I just feel that masonry should be there. But it shouldn't be like an obsession or something if, you know, I don't want you people to lose. They are focused on what they're here for. You know, you're here if you have a family and a job and all that, you know, still focus on that. That's an interesting take. We often talk about other topics within the lodge setting that would be meaningful and impactful to our members. I alluded to this earlier, that prospects that come to us seeking more information really want to find a level of authentic friendship mentoring, whether they're the mentor or the mentee, I. The community engagement front of how do I, we get asked this all the time. How can I give back to the greater good? As a result of that, the conversations continue to happen across the state with lodges. What else are we offering as far as Masonic education, and sometimes I've called it non-MS education, which some brothers have corrected me in saying, well, it's all, it's all Masonic education. When we look at things though that are off topic a bit. Financial planning, leadership skills, mental health, talking about addiction, PTSD, effective communication. There's a big difference between saying the words, saying the word brotherhood and have it be an abstract concept versus a. Brotherhood of knowing what's going on in each other's lives. When it's time to celebrate. Yes, we celebrate good things, graduations, kids born, grandkids born. But on the other side of that, when life happens, people are struggling having mental health crisis or addiction loss, and I'm, I'm reaching an age where I recently at the store, I bought the six pack of sympathy cards. Man, it, it's just. No one prepares us for that. No. There's a big difference in the lodge between saying all of the words, or living them. Mm-hmm. In a very meaningful friend to friend and brother to brother context. And that's something that Ai. Or sitting in front of a screen or sitting isolated in one's home or apartment, just there's no comparison. Oh yeah, you're right. And, uh, what you said is very enlightening. So when I joined Masonry about 12 years ago, I would hear about somebody mentioning that Mr. So and So Brother So-and-So passed to the Celestial Lodge about, and we all stood up and had a moment of silence. And I didn't know who that person was because I was new to Masonry. But now, for the last few years. I've known those people. Like I was with a brother who, you know, he was in his late eighties or early nineties and they passed away. And now I'm sensing that sense of mortality that I've known these people, they've passed away and they're almost like a family. So when you say about those six pack sympathy cards, uh, I'm also of that age where I know these people and I'm just thinking. Boy, I miss that brother. And when you say ai, yeah, I mean there are some things that AI can never, like the, the handshake, the pat on the back, you know, just that feeling of comradery. You can't just get that through ai. AI is currently doing a lot for us in our daily lives. It will continue to do that, but the one thing that AI will never do is replace the human to human connection. Definitely. I. Anyone who listens to our podcast knows that we like to pose a couple random questions in an effort to get to know you better. You're laughing already, Sujit. What is the dumbest feature of the human body? I. I think it's the nose because me personally, I would, I told my wife that, um, I don't think I can smell that well. She would say, oh, what do you think of that? And there's some perfumers. And I said, no, I think I've got a, I don't think I can smell it. So I told her, should I apply for one of those handicap uh, stickers? And she said, what do you mean no? I said, I can't smell, so I have a handicap. Right. I mean, why is it only blind people and deaf people that get that thing? I should get that. So I don't know if I'm. Olfactory challenged something, but I'm not a very thing. So I don't know. I think the nose is good for breathing, but I meant besides that, you know, people spend a lot of money trying to get a rhinoplasty, trying to, trying to modify it. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe the grand architect, the universe should have come up with some other way to breathe through the skin or something. What do you think could actually unite most people? Good question. So I was gonna go down the route, uh, route of saying a belief in a higher power. But if you know anything from the 10th degree, usually it's belief in higher power that sometimes is the cause of most of the wars in society. But there is always a, a common thread among all these great religions. And I'm not saying I'm a philosopher who can unite all of'em, but. I think the only way to unite people is to just be more secular and open and not, uh, you know, be culturally sensitive because everyone, like even, you know, I'm from a different part of the world. Originally when I came here, the Masons, the brothers, they were the most. Inviting people I've met, I, I, I tried to join the jcs, the Road Track Club, the LEO Club, and I thought they were all friendly, but, uh, none. I mean, I even joined Mensa. It sound like I'm trying to push, I. Put myself on a pedestal. Again, it's the Higher IQ Society. I went to a MENSA meeting and I saw a bunch of guides and I saw this guy, and I'm not making fun of them. He had very strong body odor, so that's where finally Oh, I see. Well, your nose. Yeah, my nose was working and I just casually looked at him and said, Hey, I. What do you do for a living? Just, you know, to break the ice. And he looked at me and he had a smile and he says, oh, just because I have a high IQ doesn't mean I'm employable. And he started laughing and I thought, oh, so that's actually a negative, a deterrent. The higher your iq, the more you're gonna complain to your boss and you'd probably lose the job. I thought, this is not helping. So, but when I joined Masonry, I met guys from all walks of life from, you know, uh, you know, like a construction guy all the way to a lawyer. And they're all, they're all on the level. So I'm kind of blanket on your question. Oh, how do we unite people? Masonry would be a great one to unite people because we are all on the level, but beyond that, I mean we just have to break down the walls and be culturally sensitive. Again, I don't know how that's gonna happen if we keep isolating and using, again, AI to, we need to probably get together. But again, when you have people talking to each other. There could be again, uh, frustration and people want their own agenda, but the reason is when you mention the word complaint, why somebody complaining, there's probably a reason why he's complaining. If you can understand the reason why he's complaining, then you will also be em empathetic or sensitive to that issue. Usually they have something happened earlier in the day that probably ticked off that person, not he's honestly angry at you, so. But beyond that, no. I'm, I'm not a philosopher or a politician. I have no power. I just wish that people would be more open-minded. That's your your opinion though. Yeah. More open-minded. Learn from each other. Yeah. Yeah. Learn. Don't be so, you know, quick to judge. Like try to figure out like, why did he say that? Why is he thinking that way? Try to understand one another. It's something we don't do very well in our isolated world. Yeah. And on behind the screen, on social media and lash out. You don't agree with me? And I don't agree with you. So we, yeah. Yeah. We just can't be friends. Yeah. Uh, I don't, I don't, then I don't just hit a like or a dislike on social media. Now, here's this thing that I was told by somebody, is that most people, most people in the world are good people. So we don't wanna say that every person we meet is, you know, you gotta be kind of suspicious. People are good. I mean. Just, you know, the cup is always half empty in my opinion. Or maybe three fourth. I mean, I said it the other way around, is three fourth full and one fourth empty. You and I are old enough to remember meeting people that perhaps we knew right away that we're probably not gonna be the best of friends. Yeah. We didn't agree on certain things, but that doesn't mean that we. Shut them out or isolate or just completely avoid that person. But that feels like the vibe of today, that behind that screen, social media, if you and I aren't for and against all the same things, then mm-hmm. No way we're, we're done. Yeah. And I think social media gives you that, uh, you know, it's made, made like a cowardly way of, because you're not telling it to their face. You're just posting it out there. And you know, it's kinda like, maybe it could be somebody who's thousands of miles away, but you're putting like, oh, screw you, or put a thumbs down. And maybe you had some other agenda before it, that's what ticked you off there. But, uh, I, yeah, I, I, I see that all the time. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram once in a while. I'm not addicted to it, but I see somebody make a comment and sometimes they kind of like hijack my own comment and make it look like I'm saying something stupid and just like a neutral, sarcastic comment that gets misunderstood. And, but that's the way the world is. And I find that difficult because people constantly. Use social media to affirm their beliefs. Yeah. I'm for this, I'm against that. It's platitudes. It's just talking. Yeah. There's a big difference between saying, oh, I align myself with this. Or actually going out and doing constructive, productive work on behalf of someone or someone. Someone in need. Mm-hmm. Anyone can say the words, but who's out and, and I don't, I don't mean for that to sound like to do something radical or disruptive. Mm-hmm. But just seeing an opportunity, seizing an opportunity, and that's what I love about the craft. Okay. Where do we see those opportunities to give back to someone in need? And it doesn't have to be grandiose. Small things are impactful too. Yeah. Coming back to what you just said. You know, some people just have strong opinions and that's the, probably the sa, the easiest way to put it out there because if you go and tell that to somebody in the face, it could end up in a debate, an argument. Maybe even a slugging a fist or they won't want to talk at all. Yeah. Face to face. Face to face. But then you do it over there. You can just block somebody, you can write back and you know, and again, it depends on how much stamina you have. I've had somebody, people, you know, cyber bullying somebody and you just ignore it. Uh, but beyond that, yes, I think Masonry teaches us, uh, to be civil, I would think. And I think that's what's kept us in business all of these years that we are apolitical. Non-sectarian for those who listen to our podcast that are not masons have to have a belief in God and a higher power. He can't be an atheist, but our members are Christians, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu. I always use Benjamin Franklin as an example, was more of a deist. Oh yeah. But we do not argue religion. Mm-hmm. Or politics when we are together. Now, if we could only encourage our members who have a proclivity to do that on social media to stop doing that, that would be very helpful. Yeah. isn't it a great place to go to get to know friends and brothers? Definitely. Yeah. Void of those two divisive topics. Yeah. And coming back to the thing about our brothers, now, of course I believe in freedom of expression as long as it's, uh, not. Detrimental. You're not trying to totally, you know, insult somebody. So I know that sometimes they say, well, when you do that in the social, in cyberspace can say you are also representing masonry, or whatever it is. Uh, we can only tell them so many times, but it is freedom of, you know, it is. Yeah. And people are free to. Say or share whatever they want to. The question comes up though, why would you want to, why would you want to alienate 50% or more of your friends, your family, your colleagues on social media and for what? So you can have that moment of feeling self-righteous. You can get on that hill at that proverbial hill and. Bask in your glory. No, so that's a good question. It's almost rhetorical Now, the reason you and I are asking the question is because we don't think like that, those people, so we don't get our juices, you know, or our adrenaline rush out of that. There are some people who get that, they just are that type of people. No, maybe there's a personality variable and all that it, you know, is it because we're getting older and we're not old, but we're not 30. So somebody said that if you're not controversial, you are. you are irrelevant. So it's kinda like some people take that literally, like if I don't create, if I don't stir the pot, nobody knows who I am. I'm getting this. It's easy to get notoriety than to do something positive and get. You know, an ap, uh, an, you know, applauded or an applause for that. It's easier to be, you know, to be like, I'm not saying I'm not justifying this, but it's easy to be a criminal and get fame, infa be infamous than to be famous and do something good. Mm-hmm. I mean, you can do 10 good things and just do one really bad thing, and it's the bad thing that people remember before and they forget all the. So again, I don't know if some people just like that weird attention thing. Is it a personality thing? Very ego driven. Yeah. Yeah. So many influencers that are 20 million followers that are just keeping up though this aura, they're keeping up. There's, it's all an act. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until the reality will finally come along and Yeah. Like when you hear about those viral videos, usually what are they, something that's beyond human experience or some, it's not something nice. It's not like. You know, something that we, oh, there was a beautiful sunrise. Why would we wanna watch a viral video of the sunrise? Yeah. You know, I'll date myself with a song lyric. A mentor reminded me, I can't remember who it was. This was it, Billy Joel. I had my pointless point of view, Uhhuh. But life went on no matter who was wrong or who was right. Oh, And he didn't stop the fire. You remember that one? That was a couple years after that one. Yeah. Yes. I heard he can't sing anymore, right? He, uh, yes, I saw a headline about him. Yeah. He is in poor health. I was shocked to see he's, is he like 76 now? Yeah. I didn't know. He was only that old. I thought he was much older. Did you Oh, classic. Yeah. So what's next for you on the work front? Family front? Do you have big plans, big projects in your near future? Yeah. I'm trying to be humble. My son is graduating high school any minute now. This is the grad season. I think it's tomorrow actually. Yeah. And then he's going to the UMD, university of Minnesota Duluth for engineering. So he's kind of following in my, in my father's footsteps, his grandfather. Uh, and me personally, no. I mean, I'll continue doing what I have to do, trying to, uh, you know, help people with mental health issues in the area. Um, continue my masonic, uh, pathway and do good deeds to others so that, you know, hopefully the world is in a better place when I leave. You have a very unique. Opportunity to be truly giving back to those in need, the people that you care for and provide that guidance is, I'm sure frustrating as it can be time and again, you shared some of their procrastination or some of their delayed, Hey, just, just fix it for me now. But, but big picture, you're doing great work. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Sji. Varma, thank you for being with us in studio today. Great pleasure, Reed. Call me again if you need me. I will do that. I appreciate you and until next time I.