Episode 79. Check your Ego (ft. Ben Lacy)

The pod gets electric when Ben Lacy shares perspective on respecting the 24-inch gauge, creating a bespoke Masonic experience, and the action necessary for authentic brotherhood. 

“Support the people that are working for the betterment of the Craft. Figure out a way that you can ask someone how you can help them. And then go follow up on that and do the thing. Figure out a way that you can make a difference.”

A felony prosecutor/nonprofit attorney, busy dad/husband, and one-time collaborator with the Duke of Edinburgh ( ! ), Ben is a plural member of Golden Sheaf Lodge No. 133 (Morris, MN) and St. John’s Lodge No. 1 (Stillwater, MN). 

“Muh-sonic” or “May-sonic?” Call your next witness, it’s an all new episode of Minnesota Masonic Histories & Mysteries. 

Transcript

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what is brotherhood? Brotherhood is everything that you want to make it. Brotherhood requires commitment. It requires buy-in. It requires trust, faith, temperance, all the things that we talk about in Masonry and, uh. It's what I wanna be a part of. Is there a difference between brotherhood, the noun and brotherhood? The verb? A hundred percent. How so? Brotherhood the noun makes it so that you can say, I'm part of a brotherhood, and you can say that without any action. As a verb, of course, we're top verbs or action words. You gotta have action to be a part of a brotherhood. You gotta, if you want the brotherhood to survive, if you want the brotherhood to be vibrant, you have to buy in. You have to act in a way that is participating in the brotherhood, not just existing in the brotherhood. the words that come to mind as you say that are things like meaningful and authentic. A hundred percent. It's meaningful, authentic participation, bringing your whole self to the table. Uh, that little voice that makes you want to question something, It's about engaging with that voice and then understanding that that voice is healthy, but still trusting your brothers brotherhood could be also known as. Knowing what's going on in each other's lives outside of the lodge in life. Absolutely. It, St. John's Lodge where I'm a part of, uh, we regularly are harping on making sure that we're following up with each other. And it's not just a, Hey, how are you? It's a how are you doing? How can I help you? Tell me more. Get past that initial answer. Get past the, I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Moving on to the next person. Hi, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's, it's What do you need from me? How can I help you feel better about life in the moment? Life with the lodge and life outside of the lodge and bringing all that together is brotherhood. Don't you love the, I'm good. We all defer to that. That's the canned answer. But when we peel that back a couple of layers and really know what's going, and it could be good things, difficult things across the board, but knowing what each of us are experiencing in this rollercoaster of life. Our guest today is Ben Lacey. He was raised in Stillwater, Minnesota as an only child by his mother, who was a homemaker and father who was a patent attorney. Ben graduated from Stillwater High School in 2006, went to the University of Minnesota Morris, graduated in 2009 with a bachelor's degree in political science and comparative politics. From there, he accepted an internship in Washington DC where he worked for a lobbying firm that lobbied for nonpartisan issues pertaining to Minnesota cities, counties, and municipalities. Ben quickly realized that he did not want to be a lobbyist, So he took a job working for the Boy Scouts of America and worked there for about five years, helping pilot the Duke of Edinburgh's Young Americans Challenge, among other things. I can't wait to hear more about that. Ultimately, Ben wound up going to law school at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law and has now been practicing law as a felony prosecutor. And as a nonprofit attorney working at Tubman, representing victim survivors of domestic violence, Ben joined Free Masonry in college at Golden Chief Lodge, number 1 33 in Morris, Minnesota, and is a plural member at St. John's Lodge, number one in Stillwater. Welcome, Ben. Thank you. I have to ask right away, tell us about piloting this Young Americans challenge with. Wow. well, the Duke of Edinburgh's program worldwide is sort of like Eagle Scout. there are three levels, bronze, silver, and gold. And that gold award is, is very similar to what we would consider to be an Eagle Scout Award in the us. Well, his Royal Highness wanted to expand that and so he issued this challenge to young Americans and he thought, why not partner with the scouts? We took that and tried the program on a very micro level in a couple of places, and then started to expand it out It's been really amazing to see it grow over the years, and it continues to be a world class and world recognized award, and I was lucky to be a part of that experience. Seeing a photo of you with the man himself, what, what was that like? I'm a pretty big guy, but I felt pretty small in that moment, really. Uh, yeah. It was very humbling to be given the award at the United States Capitol. Um, it was, it was very surreal to have everything from paparazzi there and all that following his Royal Highness and, uh. Just meeting some meeting royalty and saying hi. You know, I, I'm, I'm Ben, I'm actually a dual citizen of the United States and Bermuda. Uh, oh, by the way, Bermuda's that one country that's, you know, a sovereign part of Britain as well. Don't forget about US police. that was really an unbelievable experience and it really brought full circle a lot of. My family and a lot of my experiences up to that point in my life. And you worked for the Scouts for five years and then also pivoting into a legal career. Yeah. Tell us more about what you're doing today in terms of courtroom. Yeah, so today I am a trial attorney. I'm managing attorney at Tubman, so I teach a lot of. trial skills to volunteer attorneys who are part of our, what we call safety project and, uh, family law project. And, uh, I also teach new staff attorneys, uh, similar skills. Before that, I was a felony prosecutor in Washington County and that's where I really was lucky enough to hone my trial skills with some really incredible mentors. Most of whom are either retired or no longer with us. But, uh, gosh, it was a privilege to work with the team that was there. And then everybody else, for the most part, I think there are two people left in that group at, at Washington County and everyone else is a judge now. So you joined a lodge while in college at Morris Golden Chief. What was the catalyst to say I wanna be a Freemason, even while I'm in college with a lot of other obligations at the time? So shout out to Golden Chief Lodge. I, John Amon. was absolutely influential in bringing me in. I, he was my boss at the time. I told him about how I have a long family history of masonry that skipped my father. So it's grandfather's back. and John said, well, hey, come to a meeting. And uh, I did. And they had spaghetti dinners and other dinners. And as a college student, gosh, that was pretty nice. It's a good start. It was a great start. And then after that, we. We went through the whole process of becoming a mason. You know, I'll, I'll never forget, Yeah. Started more as a social interaction. A hundred percent. It was, it was a slow process and I think it was really good that it was a slow process. It. Made me feel like masonry, uh, forgive the, the, the parallel here, but is a rock and it's not going anywhere. So wherever I went, I could always return to my rock. And I got initiated on my 21st birthday. So I went from that, you know, out to the Legion and we had a good time. Little, little double celebration. Little double celebration. Okay. It was great. And uh, and then I came back after the lobbying stint, one summer just to be raised. And I haven't been back to Morris much since, but Masonry has always been that rock and I was. I knew, I knew I was a mason. I know I am a mason all the way through that time, but I was, for all intents and purposes, inactive for a while. You know, I had to figure stuff out and I knew how important it was to me to pay my dues and do that. That was, that was kind of the extent of my participation for a bit. And finally, I got where I wanted to be situated in Stillwater and joined St. John's, but. I bet we have a lot of brothers like that, that are waiting for that moment, that are waiting for the ask, that are waiting for the thing that are waiting to come participate again or to participate for the first time. But they know full well their masons. They're just trying to figure that out, figure out their timing. We often underestimate the awkwardness of someone that needed a little time to go take care of things in their lives, their family, their job, their career development, and they often feel a little sheepish coming back and ask themselves, I've had these conversations with many brothers, does my lodge even want me? Is it cool if I come back? And obviously the answer is resoundingly yes. but somehow in the process, that assumption is made. We don't see him. Maybe we haven't kept in contact with him. We talked about what, knowing what's going on in each other's lives, and then as that time increases, there's a bit of a complex that someone may have and instead of taking the first step to reach out, they might just disappear. I'm, I'm nodding along as you're saying all this, Reid. It's, uh, it's so true and it's so in your head. I regularly tell my brothers, please show up late, please. If you can't wear a suit today, that's fine. I still want to see you. The lodge still wants to see you show up, be a part of this. You know, if you got a, you know, if stated it's at seven 30 and you can't show up till eight 30, well guess what? You know something's probably happening after lodge. And on top of that, show up and be a part of what is left of Lodge. the other piece is I try to tell people who are taking that break when I know that they're taking it. Don't feel bad about it. Please don't. Let that guilt get in the way of coming back. cause it is guilt, right? It is awkward or it's, you know, oh, we haven't seen this guy. Hey, if someone is paying their dues and someone is trying to just stay engaged, they're getting your emails. Are they reading every one of them? Who knows if you're active, who knows if everyone's reading the emails? Okay. Yes. But I, at the end of the day, the. The invite, the openness that rock being able to return to the rock is so important. And if you think about it that way, the rock hasn't worn that much, you know, in, in a lifetime. So it's there. Where are you? If only we took the proactive approach. When we don't see someone in lodge, haven't heard from them in a little while, maybe their social media presence has been quiet, if they were otherwise on there frequently, and ask the question, how are you? What's new in life? Instead of just assuming, well, he doesn't come around much, he must not care anymore, that that's usually the flashpoint for the alienation. That begins that quiet, awkward standoff of. Do they even want me and the brother's saying, where is he? Who wants to make the first step proactively to simply say, how are you brother? We've been thinking about you. We miss seeing you. But first, tell us about life as a mason. One of the thing, first things that we have to do in every setting is check our ego. That goes both ways in that setting, right? Active brotherhood, you're reaching out. You are, not adding some villainous intent to someone not showing up. You're checking your ego and then when you receive that call,'cause you haven't been around in a while or what have you, check your ego. Don't worry about what's on your mind or what's, you know, what, whatever is there. You know, even that sheepish embarrassed feeling. No, we're just happy to see you. Everyone is happy to be together. Isn't it nice to dwell together as brothers? I saw another great quote from Ernest Hemingway. I'm gonna read it. It's not short. In our darkest moments. We don't need solutions or advice. What we yearn for is simply human connection, a quiet presence, a gentle touch. These small gestures are the anchors that hold us steady when life feels like too much. Please don't try to fix me. Don't take on my pain or push away My shadows just sit beside me as I work through my own inner storms. Be the steady hand I can reach for as I find my way. My pain is mine to carry my battles mine to face. But your presence, your presence reminds me. I'm not alone in this vast, sometimes frightening world. It's a quiet reminder that I am worthy of love even when I feel broken. So in those dark hours, when I lose my way, will you just be here? Not as a rescuer, but as a companion. Hold my hand until the dawn arrives. Helping me remember my strength. Your silent support is the most precious gift you can give. It's a love that helps me remember who I am, even when I forget. That to me captures the core essence of what brotherhood is. I agree that the words are incredibly powerful, and you add in the context of Hemingway himself and the imperfections of the man who wrote those words, add another layer. The, those are admirable words. I don't know that if you asked Hemingway, if he were sitting here today, he would say, oh yeah, I ascribed all of that. Right? He would say, probably say a few four letter words, but at the end of the day, he would, uh, he was quick, I think in his, in his ways to check that ego and admit to his shortcomings. And because of that, we can hear better his intention in those words. And I love that. so as we talk about brotherhood, the human to human connection, how vital that is to have a successful lodge, to have a successful anything, a place of work where we are usual advocation of house of worship, any of those places where the connection is hollow, the relationships are. Fake or transparent. Let's go with, let's go with just generic. That's not a recipe for success unless there's that authenticity baked into that. As we talk about the Masonic experience again and again, the battle cry is, well, we just need more members. And ironically, while lodges are initiating a new class of members. They're usually asking or seeking more members and not giving the proper attention or the mentoring to the members who were just initiated. We become really good at putting members through the paces. Feels like we're going on autopilot in that scenario. Where do we find that balance between new members, but looking at it as an infinite perspective and ensuring that the experience is a quality one, not just for the new guys, but for the existing members. At the same time, the Masonic experience is bespoke. It is something that needs to be narrowly tailored. To every individual that comes through our Westgate. The process of tailoring that experience is how you engage the old with the new. It's how you shape the future. And if you're doing it right, it's individualized. It's not autopilot. It's individualized to the guys that come in and say, I'm here because I want to help the community. Okay. Great. That's a, that's a very admirable thing, and we want to nurture that. Or the guy that says, I'm here because I want to be a better person. I want to improve myself as a man. Personal growth. Personal growth. That's different than the, the charitable a aspirations of another brother. Uh, and so that means that their intake, that their, their involvement into the brotherhood. Looks different. You're pairing those people with different mentors. You're presenting them with different people that will provide them different perspectives so that they have a bespoke experience that speaks to their needs and their desires and masonry. At some point, the rest will come along. The person that wants to do charity, charity is gonna become a better man. The person that says I can never do ritual, eventually can probably do ritual. All of those things will come with time and getting that transit transitory period of new member to the long game. That's where we, in my opinion, are having issues in masonry right now. That's where we've been spending a ton of time at St. John's trying to figure out how to individually work with each new member and to provide them the things that they want to be a part of. Even if that just means I joined, I realized this is a lot, I've made it through the second degree. Now I'm gonna have a kid, or now I'm gonna go out in my world and, and I have to travel a lot for a new job. Okay, we're right back to the conversation that says, don't feel bad about that. You're not abandoning us, we're the rock that you can come back to. And so that means we're tailoring each experience how it needs to go. And it's so important that we do that because then we create lasting members in a, in a, a basis of members that are, are, are gonna come back, that are going to build as they have the time and opportunity to do it. And yes, we need new members. Reid, I totally agree. But we also need the old members that we have to participate in a new way in that those, those brothers, the older brothers that figure out and are, are figuring out just how to not get in the way, but instead nurture the new, even if that might be uncomfortable for them. That's a beautiful thing. That's checking your ego. That's brotherhood. The more I think about that 24 inch gauge, if we really respect that notion of dividing our time, it will really, not just for ourselves, but how we can apply that in our understanding of our brothers and their challenges with time and commitments in life. yes, you have to go tend to whatever it is in your life and we support you in that. that's, that's powerful stuff. I know you're having a lot of proactive conversations at your lodge at St. John's, number one. Have you delved into what the future of Freemasonry looks like? Is that something you guys talk about when you plan this, when you try to unpack all of these layers of the Masonic experience? Yes. tell us more. Uh, at St. John's, it's probably our number one focus is the future, and that is divided up into, the financial future, the membership future, the ritual future, the program future. Those are probably the, the four categories that we're focused on. Everyone's got a different part of it that they're, they're kind of drawn to or feel good about. And so tapping into the right people is helpful. It's created a situation where we have more active committees than we've ever had in recent memory, and we are constantly focused on what we frankly don't have. We don't have the breadcrumbs. Beyond the ritual. And don't get me wrong, the ritual's got a lot of breadcrumbs in there, but we don't have the the breadcrumbs of why did this money exist in this pot, in this way, from Worshipful master to Worshipful master. You know, why? Why is it that, that our bespoke membership experience isn't written down? Why don't we have a process so that we have at least an ideal that we can strive for? There's, and there are a lot of resources out there that are dated, But how to bring in a mason has changed. How to provide a bespoke experience in 2025 has changed from 1990. You know, it, it's just, it's not the same and adjusting and figuring that out, but having to invent the wheel again is, is something we're constantly thinking about. And then writing it down so that the next group of guys at least understands. Why we made a decision the way we made it. You know, if the, you know, if this issue or that issue is controversial, rather than burying it, embrace the emulation, embrace the fact that that happened, write it down and then put a warning sign on it so the next guy doesn't fall in that pothole. It's so true. We could see that going back in minutes from years gone by. you look back in the minutes a hundred years ago, and some of the quote unquote escalated situations were very similar, very parallel to today, However, when that institutional knowledge gets lost or when we get lazy in sharing the institutional knowledge with the next generation, it's easy to start going through the motions. Uh, we open, we read the minutes. Nobody has any education ready for tonight. We'll just call it a night. And there that bespoke experience takes a hit and some of that quality of experience, while it may have been a gradual erosion, what goes from gradual to being sudden. And I commend you guys for addressing that head on in seeking ways to problem solve. To really look at from a higher level of how we can ensure we're providing a quality experience to all of our members.'cause like you said, everyone's coming with a little different source of passion, whether it's community engagement, personal growth, seeking that mentor mentee, authentic friendship and brotherhood. Everyone's wired a little differently, but we all come together under the same set of embracing our core values. You're totally right. And preparing for our future requires accepting our impermanence on this planet in lodge. Our relevance in lodge on this planet there, there's an arc of time that, that we're traveling upon that, uh. Both relevance and existence, uh, decrease potentially over time, and there's an ego component to that, checking that ego, figuring out how to embrace and plan for the future. You know, someday I'll be in lodge and I'll be the old guy in the corner. All I can hope and pray for is that I don't get in the way. Because I, of course, have an ego. I of course want to think that my idea is the right one, but the mere fact that somebody else is coming up with my same idea doesn't mean that I need to tell them that, oh, yeah, that's my idea. That was mine. Yeah. Right. No, it's, it's that, that's a great idea. How can I help you with that? You've probably got some ideas since it was your idea too, but you, you, you don't. Stifle that new idea. You take the guys that have the imperfect ideas and you try to grow them, you try to figure out how to embrace them, and that is a level of masonry that I think we as a, as a trending younger lodge right now are trying to wrap our, our heads around trending younger across the state in many instances. And as you're talking. It occurred to me We pride ourselves on being non-sectarian, apolitical. These are things that have likely kept us in business for all of these years. But what does that actually equate? Check your ego. Sure. I have an opinion. You have an opinion. The person next to us, we all have different backgrounds, different convictions. However, to walk into the threshold of a lodge and leave our personal passions, strong opinions at the door, and getting to know one another as humans, as friends and as brothers. And there's space for that. Everywhere we look. Everywhere you go is a mason. There is space to connect in ways that are not partisan, in ways that are not vitriolic, in ways that are absolutely supportive. If everything we do supports each other, we will survive for the next millennia, and it's gonna be a beautiful, beautiful thing as we set up for the next thousand years of masonry. That's the, the, we've shown that we can survive and stand the test of time. Now that we have that foresight, we can plan for a thousand years, we can talk about, alright, this year we have the University of Minnesota in a thousand years. Why isn't it the University of Minnesota Masonic educational institution? I'm not, let me be clear. I'm not saying we take over the University of Minnesota, but you're thinking big. That's right. Think big. Yeah. Dream. Dream as a lodge. Dream as a mason, we got there as masons before we dreamed a country and we built the backbone of this nation. Let's make masons that again. Let's figure out a way that we can better support every single person that comes our way On the topic of support, you're a busy dad, busy husband. Your wife recently had successful surgery at the Masonic Cancer Center at the university. She did. She, uh, fe at the end of February this past year. Um, my wife had some medical complications, which turned out to, at least in part, caused by. A very large brain tumor in the frontal part of her brain, and it took up more than half of her brain. The care we were getting wasn't meeting the standards that we expected of modern medicine, so, uh, not because the. Not because of of the wrong scalpel or the wrong scientific thing. It was because there was a communication issue in the day-to-day stuff. So we started looking around and we found, uh, the Minnesota Masonic Institutes at, at the U of M and we found Dr. Van Dyker, Dr. Van Tyer. Um, well, I have a wife because of Dr. Van Tyer. Who is alive. My children have a mother who is alive, and he took out the entirety of that tumor down as low as he could without taking away the function of her legs, uh, to the point where you can't even see it on an MRI. He knows there's a little bit left and that, that, to me, it was, it was funny to listen to him talk about it because in his mind. He was almost talking about that as, as in his mind is like, I couldn't do more. Wow. You know, and, and it was, that was frustrating to him. But gosh, what he did for us, what he's done for us, what the Masons have done to get him there is pretty incredible.'cause I was talking to him and I, I said, you know, do you know about the Masons? All that stuff? He goes, I wouldn't be here. In this place at this hospital, if it were not for the Minnesota Masonic charities. When I was looking to find a place to build my career home, there was a$25 million gift given to the University of Minnesota by the Minnesota Masonic Charities. If that didn't happen, I wouldn't be here today and I wouldn't be able to be operating on your wife. Oh, the full circle experience there. That full moment of we went out in the world, I tried to help save my wife's life as best we could. Right? She tried to save hers too, and we didn't find what we were looking for. So we asked and we saw it, and we knocked and we found, and what we found was right back to the masons in your backyard, even right in our backyard. This is, this is no pun intended to no brainer here. Uh, you know, the, the Minnesota Masonic charities, the planning ahead that our brothers have done in that I only wish they'd done it for their lodges to, because if our lodges were in the same shape the charities is right now, we'd be having a lot of different conversations around masonry. But we have time still. We can get this right. We have a map. Yeah. You know, and, and let's follow that map and set ourselves up and set up our communities for the next thousand years of masonry. We have that opportunity indeed. And for whatever reason, whether it's because. We're human, or because we're masons, we love to talk about things ad nauseum. However, now we can actually make some decisions and make progress. Why is it we won't execute on something? If there's no guarantee of that massive overnight success, Progress does not always have to be loud or fast, just make progress. But we have to get out of the the rumination trap to do that. Yes. And that means if we try an idea once. We need to, if five guys show up, if five guys in your community show up to this idea, that's not a failure. That's a data point. It's not a trend.'cause you don't have enough data points. Go figure out, you know, the first time you throw an event, the first time you do something new, make a data point. Understand that it might not be perfect the first time, but don't give up on it. You just put a bunch of time into something you just put, you just put your, your blood, sweat, and tears into. Whatever program it is, whatever thing you want to do. And if it doesn't get through or if it doesn't, if you don't have, uh, an amazing success the first time, that doesn't mean that you just stop building the building. It means you go buy more materials, go go get more stones, and go get more brothers involved and build that building until the point that everybody wants to go sit in the shade of your building Get together or whatever, you know, do something fun and oh by the way, figure out a way to include your family because Masonry also needs families to support it. Sure. We're men doing work of men, but we have a lot of other institutions that are great and that are really involved, but sometimes. Our families don't necessarily want to get involved in those, but they do wanna support us as men in what we're doing. And the way that we can make that more palatable is by having more programs that are inclusive of everybody who supports us in our Masonic experiences. You are obviously someone stretched for time, a career, a wife and kids. You know your wife is recovering successfully from her procedure. Please give her our best and our love. I would imagine you think about, or you've had hobbies and certain things that you've been able to do before you had such a a time crunch. What lapsed hobby would you like to return to Broomball? I played broomball, uh, for a long time, which is kinda like hockey, but with shoes. And, uh, I played it at a pretty high level, um, which was fun. You know, I, I was a part of a traveling team in DC we'd actually wind up traveling to Minnesota a lot. So really that was nice. I'd, you know, travel home, because there's a lot of brim ball here. But we'd traveled to Syracuse, New York, and Ohio and, Nebraska and all around the country, um, playing. I. That was, that was a, it's, it's a tough sport. I mean, h you know, hockey is, is hard on your joints, hard on your person. Uh, I'm, I'm a goalie by both build and mentality. Um, I'd love to go back to that. You know, joints, joints, permitting. I'm glad you mentioned that because I had the thought I was queuing up to say, to ask, I've known many friends, I haven't played broom ball since college in the nineties, but people I know still playing injuries all the time. Why? You're not on skates. Why is that? You're still on ice. Yeah. You know, gravity plus ice equals broken. Okay. And, uh, you know, you're still running after balls. You're still running into each other. You're still doing all those things. And you, if you're playing at really high levels, uh. It's almost safer than playing at the rec league levels because those guys that are playing at the really high levels can control themselves on the ice. Those people that are figuring out how to control themselves on the ice are human wrecking balls that are keeping orthopedic surgeons in business. What was the first major historical event you remember witnessing? Two pop into my head. One was Ventura got elected. Uh, that was pretty interesting. Uh, that threw my parents for a loop. What was a surprise to most? Yeah, it was a surprise to most. Um, I remember being at a friend's house and having no idea what I was watching. And, uh, you know, now in hindsight. Going, whoa. That, that was a big deal. Mm-hmm. The other one is nine 11. Um, I was in, I was in, uh, eighth grade. I got pulled outta school because my dad worked at the Wells Fargo building in Minneapolis, and that was one of the potential threats, um, one of the, one of the potential threat buildings. And so, you know, it was a whole, um. You know, I got pulled outta school, my dad got pulled outta work and it was a whole thing. And I remember what, I remember playing with Legos in my room, watching a television and watching these buildings fall over into, over and over again. And that shaped my generation in many ways. that shaped. I think a lot of where we are today, um, you know, there are two types of people. Those people who remember when you could just walk up to the gate to fly and those people that will never know that and, uh, that that changed the world. I. What argument are you tired of having? You know, Reid, it's pretty funny. Uh, off the record, a moment ago, I said I wanted to. Talk about something that, uh, uh, would not be Masonic. You pointed out to me this idea that there's a difference between Masonic and Masonic and that we have members that might, uh, feel one way or another about this. Goodness gracious. Am I sick and tired of people being, having, having arguments about that. Figure out a way to fund your scholarships, figure out a way to support your members, figure out a way to do things and support your people that aren't fighting about the difference between Masonic and Mason. I mean, I, what the heck are the doodles? As my kids would say, that's a bluey quote for all the parents out there. And you know what? Like, let's stop having these arguments that mean nothing. Figure out a way. Masonry is where we can figure out a way to be. Men, do do things that are greater than us. Figure out a way that you can do something greater than yourself because you can hear and it matters. Thank you for having me on the podcast, Reid. I mean, I, I really appreciate everything that you're doing. I appreciate everything that Grand Lodge is doing. Um, I will, I, I wanna say this because I don't know the next time I'm gonna get a platform like this, so I'm gonna say it loud and proud. Support, support, people, support Grand Lodge, support the people that show up to work here every day. That are working for the betterment of the craft. Figure out a way that you can ask someone how you can help them. And then go follow up on that and do the thing. Figure out a way that you can make a difference. And then follow up on the hard things. Easy things are fun. Figure out a way to do the hard stuff, and we're gonna all support each other into the next millennia of the craft. Ben Lacey, I appreciate you being in studio today. Until next time.