Episode 103. Mixed Feelings Season (ft. Peter Hubbard)

This is a challenging time of year: family drama, loneliness/grief, financial strain, increased anxiety/depression, and overwhelming schedules. 

It’s okay to have others help you along the way. This week we sit down with our pal Peter Hubbard and talk about the power of peer support and finding our way together. 

“I have yet to meet somebody that has stretched out their hand, came from a place of vulnerability and asked for help, and then started down that path and regretted it.”

Peter serves as Director of Development for Neurosciences and Aging at the University of Minnesota Foundation, with a focus on advancing discoveries in healthy aging and mental health.

Transcript

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let's be honest, this is a tough time of the year. Holidays, family drama. What is it about this time of year? I don't even know how to articulate that. Yeah, I think for many it's the weather. For many it's the, the holidays, exactly what you said. It's, it's being with loved ones or mourning the loss of loved ones. Um, a sense of loneliness, a sense of being overwhelmed by, by so much, uh, so much going on. It's, it's a lot. It's, it's a lot all at once, and then sometimes it's also. We develop an expectation that this is what the holidays have become, is a, is a tough time. And I don't know if, uh, if everyone is always well prepared to cope with all of those things. Does it ever feel like we're putting an undue amount of pressure on ourselves to do more, to make this year's holidays more than last year? Or am I living up to. Friends on social media that are posting all of these exotic trips or gifts for the kids? Is it just, it's so pressure packed? Yeah. I mean, we, we, we do that with, with everything, right? Our, our lives are, are under a microscope. We're constantly comparing ourselves to others, to, to friends that live. Hundreds of miles away. I always try to remind myself we know 20% of what somebody is, is dealing with. Um, so always be kind, uh, lean into that humanity because everybody is fighting that battle that we know nothing about, uh, especially during these times. So as much as, uh, we all want to put on that. mask, if you will. that that makes us feel comfortable and, and secure and that everything is okay. It, there's a, there's a struggle that everybody's dealing with. You and I talked off air before we started recording that. We're certainly not experts on this, but we've, we've seen a few things. We have, we have resources to recommend to find some comfort and peace. Solutions in this mm-hmm. Battle that we call life. You were born in Seattle. You grew up in Mountain View, California before finding your way to Minnesota, which has truly become your home. You currently serve as Director of Development for Neurosciences and Aging at the University of Minnesota Foundation, where you help advance discoveries in brain health, healthy aging, and mental health. Welcome Peter Hubbard. Thanks for having me. So you work alongside some extraordinary colleagues. You're with faculty, donors, family, sharing a commitment to making life better for others. Your wife is Annie. You have a daughter, Zoe, who's six. In your words, your greatest blessings. Mm-hmm. wife's experience as a breast cancer survivor profoundly shaped your family's perspective and deepened your belief in the power of hope. Resilience and community. Annie and your daughter Zoe, are the heart behind everything you do. What a blessing or, or privilege it is to be exhausted or overwhelmed from a, a, a job that you dreamed of once having. But also at the same time, and maybe more personal to me, what a, what a blessing it is, uh, to roll your eyes at a 6-year-old child and, uh, be exhausted from chasing her around the playground. cause you once thought you might not be able to ever have that child. Tell us more about Zoe coming into this world. Yeah, so oftentimes with. Things that we, we care so much about. Uh, there's a, there's a story behind each piece, right? There's a personal connection. And, with Zoe in particular, it's, it's deeply tied to Annie's breast cancer journey. And, um, you know, Annie being diagnosed at 26 years old, and if we would've waited till she was 30, she most likely would not be here. We had to make very quick decisions and grow up quite fast. I was only 23 at the time and we had to think about family planning and uh. My dear wife Annie, has been a mom since the day she was born. I always joke with her that she was probably mothering her own mom, telling her to eat vegetables and uh, she was always the one that was taking care of little kids. And I mean, if she can sniff out a baby from a mile away and she will gravitate towards that child, and, uh, so when Annie was struggling with her, her breast cancer. We, we had to do, uh, full bilateral mastectomy, chemo, radiation, and quickly had to decide what do we want to do about family planning? And so we were fortunate enough to freeze embryos, and we froze 10 of those, three of which, uh, made it to the next phase. Unfortunately, um, one of them resulted in a, in a miscarriage, which was incredibly difficult. And, um, you know, Annie and I often talk that we thought cancer was a, a really tough journey. The, the fertility process, IVFI mean, that is a roller coaster really, of emotions. It, it's, and so we thought that maybe this was not possible for us and then. The, the next try, Zoe was our, our miracle child. And so we just, as much as we celebrate Annie being healthy and all the struggle that we went through, the blessing that came out of that was Zoe. And we do not take a single day for granted that we have with her or that I have with Annie. So I, um, I treasure each and every one of those moments. Who would you say is your best friend? Hmm. I I'm asking this because I heard this asked by Chris Williamson and he said it's a little bit of a strange question to ask somebody after the age of 13. So he reframed it for his guest. Who is the person you can sit in silence with, with the most comfort? And who is the person you can speak to with the least filter? He thought that was just the greatest way to remind what home base feels like. home base feels like sitting in silence and not needing to fill it or speaking without a filter. That's a great question. Uh, without a doubt. My wife, Annie. Yeah. each piece that you described there, she's the first person that pops into my mind without a doubt. I know that when the chips are down, she is the person that I'm gonna talk to. She is the person that's gonna be there no matter what. unconditionally we have been through hell and back. But, um, I know that when we're 85 years old, we will still be joking with each other, pulling pranks on each other. I mean, that is my ride or die, um, best friend. And, I couldn't have asked for, for a better person on this journey. Is it a cliche to say that we are forged in that fire of life, that it's all this, the challenges and the struggles, the hard stuff. It sucks when you're going through it and yet time and again, you look back on that and some of the maybe lowest points one has ever been, and somehow as you come out of that and look back, obviously it makes one appreciate more about where you may be now. What's your take on that? Yeah, it's a great que I, I think everybody asks that question every single day, right? You know, why, why me? Why am I, why am I going through this struggle? Why? Why am I the one that has to deal with, with this, this battle? And, um, it could be anything big or small. Yeah, it can be anything. It can be, um, struggling to try and get your kids to school in the morning or, um, you know, when, where somebody's next meal is gonna come from or you know, you name it. Uh, it can be any sort of thing. And I. I look back on the 37 years that I've been on this Earth and I've, I've been through some pretty horrific things. Uh, again, all relative, all in comparison. There are people in other countries, other parts of the world that are, have it far worse than any of us. that being said, I don't know if I would change any of those things that I've experienced, because it all led me to this moment right here, having this conversation with you. And each time that something difficult has happened, it's uh, it's never felt good, but you're always building that resilience. You're always building that strength even when you don't think that you are. And anything, anything tough, anything good that has come as a result. Did not feel good in the moment. Right? And so, um, being able to persevere and push through that, I've always found that there's something really positive on the other side. It didn't always seem clear at that moment. And you want to. You know, bang your head against a wall because there's no way this could ever be a positive. No. I mean, having a wife with breast cancer at 26, why would that ever result in anything positive? Yeah. Why me? Yeah, why me? But why, why her? Exactly. She didn't do anything to anybody. Right. But it is, it is through that, that experience that, um, on the other side comes sunshine and positivity. Are you able to see that in the moment now when, when something happens that's across the spectrum of either inconvenient or really serious stuff. I know you're dealing with some challenges with your dad right now, and he's a multiple myeloma cancer warrior. How hard is it in the moment of dealing with life's crucible to say, this sucks, but I know that. On the other side of this will come joy or peace or, or something or, yeah, it's um, it's a change in perspective, right? So when I was younger, I would try and solve for, okay, what could be the positive outcome that would come as a result of this. Now it's different. It's more of a, a trust where I have to trust that. There is something positive on the other side of this, because if I don't, I'm just gonna, I know myself, I'm gonna end up spiraling and, and going into a, a, a depth or a darkness that I do not want to be in, and certainly not alone. Uh, and that's where the mental health struggles come in. That's where, you know, everything that I've built over these years, um, is at risk. And so I have to, based on that lived experience, trust. That I don't know what's gonna be on the other side of this, but it, there's gotta be something, uh, positive, even if it's little that will come out of this moment of, of, you know, despair or, or struggle that I'm dealing with. And I don't have to know what that is. But in order for me to keep going, that has to provide me a little bit of comfort in being able to push through, if that makes sense. Tell us about your journey of how you ended up in Minnesota. You grew up in Seattle and California. Why Minnesota? Yeah, so Minnesota, um, is a, not a typical stop on, you know, going from Seattle to California to to Minnesota, but, uh, it, it, it started when I was 17. Uh, and really if you look back several years before that, um, I had quite a, um, significant struggle with, with substance use, um, mental health. And, uh, it, it got really, really bad. Um, as a teenager. As a teenager. And, and, uh, and again, I'm the typical, um, kid from the suburbs. You know, my parents are the most incredible people. And so. There was no, um, indication that I was gonna go down this path. I was just, that, that's how the cards were dealt. And, um, that is, that is how I am. I am wired and, uh, so I. Probably about age 14 to 17 was a pretty significant time of, really bad substance abuse. Substance abuse and um, and mental health issues. And finally, at age 17, my parents caught on to what was going on. And are we talking alcohol, drugs, all the above. Um, probably the best way I can characterize it is, um, all of the above. Um, I, I became. Addicted to the state of intoxication. So anything that I could get my hands on, um, I would, I would try. Wow. Addicted to the state of intoxication. Mm-hmm. I've never heard that before. So addicted to more. Right. Wow. Um, and so there's no off switch. There's no off switch. And I see that show up in other aspects of my life, even still. I know many folks that are on that same or similar journey. That, um, see it as well in their lives. But yeah, it was, um, anything and everything, so you name it, um, I, I probably was, um, was experiencing it. So your parents recognized this, obviously, and, and then, okay, it's time to address this. Yeah. So they, they knew something was going on. My behaviors were changing. Um, but they, they had no idea what the extent was. And, um, so finally, uh, they, they caught on. And they said, okay, there's a, a, a specialist we can take you to in Redwood City, California. And, um, I was typical teenager. Oh, it's not that serious, you know, it's not a problem. You know, I'm, I'm taking this because of a sports injury, you know, all the, all the different things that you can think of. And so we went and saw this specialist and he sat me and my mom down. He basically just told my mom, if your son keeps doing what he's doing, he is gonna die. He, he's 17, he will not live to see 18. And my mom is just a puddle of tears. And, um, I was so numb at that moment from, from everything that's, just couldn't really feel anything. I, I tried to, um, be empathetic and, it just wasn't coming out and, and. So he went on to tell us that there's this place in Minnesota that you can go to. And I didn't know anything about Minnesota. I knew it was somewhere in the middle of the United States. The Mighty Ducks were from there. It was cold, cold, you know, all the things. And um, so we get done meeting with him and, uh, we're walking to the car and my mom just said, what do you think? And at 17, you know, um. All of the near death experiences, all of the, you know, threats on, on your life or your family's life, you know, all these different ugly situations. I paused and I just said, let's do it. And, um, that was not a typical case for a 17-year-old to be ready. Um, most of the kids that I, I was in treatment with, um, were court ordered or their parents were forcing them to go. I was at a point where it had gotten so bad that I was ready, um, and I'm glad that I was. And so went to Minnesota, January to February of oh six and, um, was excited to see snow for about five minutes and then realized how cold it was, uh, and um, the rest is, is kind of history from there. And so, if all goes according to plan, uh, January of this coming year, I will celebrate 20 years. And so, um, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. And there's. That's been its own, you know, journey as well. But, um, yeah. So I assume you went to Hazelden. Were you in Center City? I was not. So, uh, the facility that I went to was in Plymouth. Oh. Uh, it was then referred to as Hazelden Center for Youth and Families or HCYF.'cause we love our acronyms. Yes. Uh, but now it is, I believe Hazelden Betty Ford, uh, Plymouth. Okay. And, um, so that is, uh, for adolescents. So I think earliest was age 14, and then it can go as high as 25. But that was, that was where I went. And then while I was there, one of my best friends to this day who, came and spoke because it's kind of a, a service commitment where can volunteer and speak to folks that are currently in treatment, came and spoke about a program at Augsburg University called the Step-Up Program. Which is a collegiate recovery program for students in recovery that want to get a college education but not have to worry about the environment and oh, it's on a small campus setting. Um, and so I immediately called my parents and I just said, you gotta. Do a Google search on this, this program, we gotta check it out. And so they did. And um, that fall I ended up going to Augsburg and was there for all four years in that program. And it was one of the best decisions I ever made. So, void of alcohol, void of the usual. Yes. It's, it's more than just a sober dormitory. Um, Augsburg has created an environment with this program where, um, the step up students are kind of the cool kids, because they are, oh, those are the, you know, the drug addicts and alcoholics. Yeah. But they still know how to have a really good time and have fun, and they're, they have this new lease on life. professors love'em because they are more dedicated to their studies than ever showing up at 8:00 AM right? They're actually showing up to classes. Um, you know, other students appreciate'em because they're not the annoying drunk. You know, sports guys that are, you know, just being a nuisance. Um, they're respectful. They're, you know, they're, they know how to have a, a, a fun time, but a clean, fun time. and then there's a, a program office where there's counselors and, and all sorts of, um, pieces that, that you can be a part of. And so that was a, a really good, um, experience that I wish every school had something like that. Never heard of that before. But also glad to hear that there was not that. Othering of this group of students, right? Because that could've easily happened. I'm sure that Oh, it could careful. Here comes, here comes those. But that's what's so great about the state of Minnesota in general. Um, but also what, what that campus, um, had done in particular is they really removed the stigma. I remember going to parties as a freshman and somebody would offer me a drink. And how was that? It was. It was fine because I, I had the support. Um, I knew that getting sober at 17, I was gonna have to deal with life. I mean, you cannot escape the environment that we live in, right. With substances with, but college, especially college, yeah, college especially is, is a challenge. That's a whole nother breed. But I would go to these parties and they would offer me a drink and all I would have to say to them is, oh, no thanks, I'm in Step Up. And they knew immediately, oh my gosh, can I get you like a Diet Coke or something? They knew by just saying, oh, I'm in Step up. That that was, that was not, you know, what I was gonna be doing. and required little explanation. They just knew. Yeah. I mean, that was the tagline that everybody understood. Oh, okay. I get it. Enough said Obviously that was a young age to go through treatment. You're coming up on 20 years now. What's that like for you in a world that is just, we're surrounded by alcohol everywhere we go, no matter what the social event, concert, sporting, whatever, it's, where's the bar? It's a tough. How do you, how do you keep distant from that in a world that is so fixated on where's the alcohol at all times? Yeah, and, and it's a great question. It's, for me, it's become so much of my identity that I don't know anything else really. I mean, I've, I've never had a, a legal drink. Right. You know, I mean, you, you think about that. I've been sober longer than I, than I was alive. Yeah. When I got clean, So, you know, you think about those things and you learn to, um, life does not, um, come to a standstill when you get, when you get sober, you can still do all the things that you want to do. Um, somebody once described that, you know, addiction is, um, giving up everything for one thing, and recovery is giving up one thing so that you can have everything Everything that I have in my life has come as a result of me getting clean and, and getting into a life of recovery. And, everything that I can point to even sitting here with you right now is because of that. And I actually think it's more difficult to find a life of recovery at 55 when your kids want nothing to do with you. Yeah. You've destroyed so much. You've had so much wreckage. For so many years, I mean, I had so many folks ask me, Peter, how could it have gotten so bad that at 17 you had to get sober? And I said, it just did. I could tell you stories, but that's not the important piece. What the important piece is that it was, that it got really, really bad. I had the support system to make this life possible, and now I'm here. I get to then carry that message to others and through my lived experience, then share that and just hope that somebody else finds that life as well. you and I have talked about the sobriety journey quite a bit. Actually, I'm gonna have a five-year milestone on January 1st. That's incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. It it, it feels so, so good and it's a very different, it's been a very different approach to life for me. I used to be the first guy to the bar. let's go. One wasn't, one wasn't enough and suddenly, well, yeah, the stories aren't necessary, and COVID didn't help working from home at the time, a different, different job I had a happy hour, got a little earlier and I had a colleague who. Was also sobriety was forced on him. He was having a, a little different dynamic in his life. We agreed as a team, I was working at Robert Half at the time. We're gonna do dry January. Okay. And I, we didn't do anything on New Year's Eve by the way. We stayed home and I drank a lot and felt like such garbage on New Year's Day. And I, I remembered. We're gonna do this, this little project, uh, okay. Sign me up for a month. And I felt so good during that month. I was immediately sleeping better by day three or four. I barely worked out more than I would have normally and lost 10 or 11 pounds with basically not even trying. Yeah. And I just ended up, I wasn't even a deliberate focus on. How I felt, I couldn't deny it. The, the clarity was, was coming back. The, the things about my temperament were so much improved that I didn't realize that how I was wired before. Little more temperamental, a little more easily agitated. I'm still type A, I still have OCD, but this five years has allowed me a little journey of self discovery, for lack of a better term. Uh, people ask me frequently, a lot of Masonic Brothers, how'd you do it? Yeah. How can I do it? And it's different for everyone. I wish there was a, we could say, as you and I, these two non-professionals, non-certified, but sharing a little bit of our life story, it's so different for everyone. Some guys, some people use aa, which is a great resource. Mm-hmm. but the one thing in having conversations with friends and brothers is that you have to choose. If you want to make a change in your life, you have to be the one that does the work. Yes, I, I can't do it for you, friend. I can't just sub, suggest something that will just magically make this challenge immediately disappear. yes. I mean, there, there are so many different paths to, to recovery, to, um, a life of, of managing, um, whether it's mental health or substance use, and oftentimes it's a combination of both, right? It's you're, you're treating your mental health with substances. And, um, if you can deal with your mental health, um, you know, then you have an opportunity to address your, your substance use. I have always referred to it as there are many tools in the toolbox, and we need all of those tools. Mm-hmm. what may work for Peter does not work for somebody else. I, uh, I've been in this world. Of recovery and, and mental health for so long now that I've seen people go through 25 treatment centers and still not get it, and then we find out that they, that we lost them. And so if we can have all of the tools in the toolbox, who are we to say which tool is the one that's gonna work? Mm-hmm. I just hope that somebody holds on to one of those and makes that decision to, to pursue it. And the beauty that comes with that is once they do, they realize that there's a whole community of people like us that will rally behind them and that will support them and answer that call. Two in the morning, just because you want to talk about something. I mean the, the outpour of, of, you know, um, fellowship or brotherhood or, you know, whatever you want to call it, comradery that comes with, um, a shared vulnerability or a shared struggle is beautiful. And it's, it's endless. I mean, this is exactly the conversation that we're having right now. Is we're, we're all going through something. Yeah. But the power of just sitting down and having a conversation can change anything. It's not simply about just alcohol abuse. It could be depression. Mm-hmm. It could be relationship struggles. These are things we've been talking about a lot in our Masonic circles. With the concept of brotherhood. Mm-hmm. And friendship, authentic friendship. Is that just a word we say when we get together or are we leaning on one another through the tough stuff in life? And I feel like as men, we, I dunno if we're just not wired to reach out or it, it's awkward to say's a lot of toxic masculinity. Right? Well, right. Well, or it's at least the, it is a pride factor that I, gosh, I, someone's struggling with their marriage. Addiction. Could be alcohol, could be pornography, could be anything. Men's mental health is really, really important right now, and that's part of why we're having this conversation today at the end of the year. This is a tough time of the year. Yeah. Brings out the worst in people in terms of self-sabotage. Yeah. I mean it's um. Men are gonna be different than women, right? Women are gonna, um, you know, deal with, I, I've just learned over time that, alcoholism for, for women looks differently. Mental health struggles look, look differently. we, we just need to be able to wrap our arms around everybody. And, uh, you're absolutely right. I have yet to meet somebody that says. You know, I, everything else in my life is perfect. I just, I just can't deal with the alcoholism. Yeah. Oftentimes there's, there's other stuff going on I, I have also yet to meet somebody that, um, has, has stretched out their hand, um, and come from a place of vulnerability and asked for help and, um, started down that path and then regretted it. So if you're listening and you can just talk to whomever, reach out, you know, extend your hand, and just grab a hold of whatever tool that is that's gonna help you get through today, tomorrow, the next day. And just take it from there. I promise you there is gonna be a community that will just surround you and lift you up. And it's not always gonna be easy. A lot of what I talk about when sharing my story is not the ugliness of what I experienced during those teenage years, but what life has looked like afterwards.'cause it's not always gonna be sunshine and rainbows, but it's how you show up and how you respond, and how you navigate all those things. The Grand Lodge of Minnesota and Masonic Charities are gonna be partnering with the Face It Foundation in 2026. I love that. We're going to do a pilot program with a handful of lodges throughout the state There's a real cause and effect that as we've talked about some of these things and tried to take the stigma away from mental health. I grew up with parents that grew up in that. We don't talk about our feelings. Rub some dirt on it. Yep. Play through the pain, man up. We, we just don't go there. some of the generational things that the world, fortunately is breaking or in the process of, of turning that into a healthier direction. As we've had these conversations, there have been several brothers and friends outside of the Masonic family that have said, can we talk about that? I was a bit shocked at how. Just having a conversation to address that and, and knowing there's support there. To your point, there's a whole community, a whole world of people that will support you, not ridicule you, not think you're a weakling, not say, oh, you're depressed. That, that just pisses me off. When we can't treat a fellow man, friend, or brother with the respect he's due, that life is kicking his butt He needs some help. He needs, he just, even if it's just someone to vent to even, maybe that's all that that guy needs, but maybe he needs more. It was a real light bulb for us when several Masons didn't feel comfortable having that conversation with a lodge brother, and they went to the face at foundation, or they went to a therapist, and when the question was asked, well, just outta curiosity, why didn't you, well. I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't think I could go there and not be, or at least not let myself feel inferior or feel like a weakling or be worried about being judged. If there's one thing I would love to see in 2026 is for men to be able to our lodge, our the Masons of Minnesota and beyond, whoever's listening to this. To know that you're not alone and there's no baggage you have to carry with whatever it is you're struggling in life. How are we there for one another in that time of need? Because we're all there when it's fun and we're joking around and, and that's great, but when life happens, do you have my six? Do I have yours? Absolutely. Yeah. When the chips are down, who's gonna be there? Right? And you quickly find out who, who shows up and who and, and who doesn't. And, you know, we, Annie and I have talked about this, you know, just even the mental health struggles that come with a cancer diagnosis or any kind of disease. Would you, would you approach that individual and say, oh, I'm sorry, I, I I can't talk to you about that.'cause I, I, I, I don't feel comfortable. No, you would, you would, um, you would wanna do anything and everything that you could to, to help that individual. I know you and I have both read at least half of Mel Robbins book. Let Them, there's something about her advice that I think the, the part of it I find challenging is that it's not complicated. It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. It's not, it, it, it's so weird. And I deal with rocket science, so I know. Yeah, yeah, that's true. it, it's simple, but it's not easy. I, I heard a quote of her recently. when you reach a point in your life where you have that reckoning that if you want your life to turn around, it is your job to do it. If you want to pay off your bills, it's your job to do it. If you want to change where you're at in life, it's your job to change it. She went on to say she'd wasted so much time blaming her spouse thinking life was unfair, and it was unfair in her words or beating herself up about the stupid decisions that they had made. Feeling down about not getting outta bed. She knew she was isolating. She let her health go, drinking too much. She stayed in that self sabotaging loop for years. Then finally realized, you know what? You can either continue to lie in bed and rot away, continue to tell yourself, well, it's too late. You screwed up. You're never gonna get outta debt. You're never gonna figure this out. You can do all of that, or you can change if you want things in your life to get better, prove it. And the person you're proving it to is yourself. Yes, I, I absolutely agree that, uh, it is, it is upon us to, you know, take responsibility and to be the ones to, initiate and, and grab it and, and move forward. That being said, it's also okay to have others help you along the way. Right. It's okay to let others, um, wrap their arms around you and, um. Provide a, a bit of guidance along that journey. I mean, if I didn't have that, um, I would, I would be absolutely lost. I have to credit you for sharing the book. No Mud, no Lotus. Mm-hmm. You and I have had some great conversations offline in the past few months of, uh. Cancer and Loss There's a passage from the book that stands out to me that ties into what we talked about earlier in this recording. the balance of the tough stuff turning into good, or how do we, how do we navigate that? Some people think that in order to be happy. They must avoid all grief and suffering, so they're constantly vigilant, constantly worrying. They end up sacrificing all their spontaneity, freedom and joy. It is possible to get stuck in the mud of life. The hardest thing to practice is not allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by despair. We must remember that suffering is a kind of mud that we need in order to generate joy and happiness. We have to learn how to embrace and cradle our own suffering with a lot of tenderness. We can't know happy without the hurt. Like you said earlier, what a blessing to be exhausted from a job you once dreamed of. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No matter what stressor I'm, I'm dealing with, uh, whether it's professional, personal, family life, I have to, I have to reframe constantly and remember that it's a blessing. I, I shouldn't be here. I should not be here right now. That is an absolute certainty that I, I was not supposed to live this long. Um, but I am, Annie should not be here, therefore, Zoe should not be here. But we still would not trade a single tragedy that we've experienced because it's brought us to where we are today. I am. I often think back to when I was 17. My very first sponsor, Henry, um, he was best man of my wedding. he was, uh, a counselor that I met during an outpatient program and he's this really stocky Hispanic guy, just a teddy bear, but also you do not want to mess with him. Um, he spent 17 years of his life in prison. All drug related charges. Um, just kind of a, a, a circle of, of destruction. And, um, he's now been sober for decades, but when I was 17, I, um, I asked him if he would be my sponsor and he kindly agreed, even though he probably shouldn't have,'cause he was, uh, acting as, as my outpatient counselor. There was a, a weekend where my parents were supposed to be traveling. They were going on a trip, which was well deserved after what I had put them through. and they had asked Henry if he would look out, you know, for me and stay with me for the, the weekend. Well, about a day before my parents were supposed to leave, Henry called and he said, um, I'm so sorry I, I can't stay with, with Peter this weekend. My, my son has died. His son, who was in his early twenties, had died of an overdose. And, um, Henry of course, you know, first thing he said was, well, you know, I can, I can figure out a way to have my, my mom watch him, you know? And, and, and, and, um, then he said, wait, you know, you know what? Nevermind. No, I'm gonna watch Peter. I need him as much as he needs me right now. And I was 17, you know, a couple months sober. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know anything. But in that moment, Henry and I, we took care of each other. You know, I was able to be there for him in that moment because I had found recovery just a couple months earlier, and he had just dealt with the biggest tragedy you can even imagine of losing a child. And that's something he and I will never forget. And that's a bond that we created that ever since that day, our relationship has evolved and never looked the same. Because when you share an experience like that, uh, there's, there's nothing else in this world like it. And you talk about the loss that we experience. And as much as that was the most horrific thing that he as a father would have to experience, I think he would also say that there was a blessing that came out of it. And that's what I mean is you may not know what that blessing is gonna be, and it may not be what you want, but there is a ripple effect and there is positivity that will come out of, of this loss. That's an incredible story The fact that he could, in that moment of loss, still say, no, I'm, I'm still going to figure this out. Mm-hmm.'cause Peter means that much to me. Yeah. And he knew, he knew in that moment that it was okay. He didn't have to be the strong one. He knew he needed me too just as much as I needed him. I was lost in a very different way than he was lost, but we were both lost. You know, it's kind of the, um, the parable of, um, you know, a guy in the woods who falls into a hole. Have you heard this one? It's, um, man's walking through the woods and he falls in a hole and he quickly panics because he, he clearly sees there's, there's no way out, no way that he can get out of this hole. And a man comes along and he, he says, oh, hey, what, what, what happened? You fall in the hole. Yeah. You know, I, I've been looking around and I, I, I just can't get out. So he gives him, you know, a sandwich. Well, once, don't you have this? It'll, it'll tide you over and, um, maybe you can figure out a way to get outta the hole. Well, next guy comes along. And, um, he says, well, let me, let me sit down. I'll, I'll say a prayer with you and, and maybe that'll help give you some comfort and, and, um, you can find your way outta this hole. So that man takes off and the third man comes by and he jumps into the hole and the guy goes, what the, what the hell are you doing? You just jump. Now we both can't get outta this hole. He goes, no, I've, I've been in this hole before and I know the way out. there's just power in that because. When you connect over a loss or a tragedy like that and that kind of lived shared experience, um, somebody who, who maybe thought the world was over and I just lost my son. And, um, there's no way that, that this can get any worse. Um, then you have people that come into your life and they show you that it's gonna be okay and we can, we can find a way outta this together. We've talked a lot about therapy today. what feels like therapy to you, but isn't therapy? This feels like therapy to me. What does this conversation right here. it is a tough time for everybody this time of year. Any, any time, you know, depending on what you're going through is a tough time for me too. You know, even being in recovery for 20 years next month, it is still hard. And being able to sit down and have a conversation with you about all of this and hope that it reaches somebody and that they can find a life of. Joyful, um, recovery from whatever they're struggling with, that is the highest reward that I can ever ask for. What skill have you spent 10,000 hours on to master? Oh, I don't know if I've mastered anything. Honestly. I, I, I think. If we feel like we've truly mastered something, we stop growing. I always want to remain teachable. I always want to continue to grow and learn. Um, I've spent 10,000 hours on a lot of things, uh, but I never want to feel like I've truly mastered something because then I feel like I'm closing the door to what could come next. Peter Hubbard, this has been a powerful conversation and I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your story with us. Well, thank you for having me. I am grateful for the opportunity. I'm grateful for your friendship and the conversation, and I, I hope it's the first of many. I.