Episode 106. The Details (ft. Bill Schoonover and Ben Lacy)

The Masonic Lodge is a sacred space where you can feel at home: safe, accepted, and able to talk about anything. Confronting “real life” topics in a Lodge setting requires us to be students of brotherhood.  

Are you feeding your strengths while supporting your brother’s weaknesses?

“Brotherhood is not just an action; it’s a togetherness that is elevated.” 

Bill Schoonover and Ben Lacy are members of St. John’s Lodge No. 1 in Stillwater, MN. 

Transcript

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The foundation of Blue Lodge is built on authentic brotherhood. Everything else sits on top. It was in November of 1849, Harley Curtis, a lawyer in a mason living in Stillwater, wrote to a brother in St. Paul expressing that the Stillwater Masons wished to form a lodge and intended to affiliate with their nearest grand lodge, which at the time was in Wisconsin. However, none of them were known to the Grand Master of that jurisdiction. They were relying upon the master of St. Paul Lodge to vouch for them Grand Master William Smith in Wisconsin. In granting dispensation October 12th, 1850 stated that he was doing so upon the recommendation of the Master and Wardens of St. Paul Lodge and authorized the opening of St. John's Lodge. There is a clear record of the meeting held October 9th, 1852 for the purpose of electing officers under the charter, which in the meantime had been issued by the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin. The first officers elected were FK Bartlett, worshipful Master, a lawyer from St. John's Lodge of Boston, Massachusetts, Henry n Setzer, senior Warden, a Lumberman, born in Missouri, raised in St. Paul Lodge in 1849. William Holcomb, junior Warden of Utica Lodge, New York, a Lumberman and receiver of the US Land Office, who in 1858 became the first lieutenant governor of the state of Minnesota. It's unknown by many of our members that this lodge was named after the lodge in which its first master was raised, namely St. John's of Boston, which by the way, is the oldest regularly constituted lodge in North America. Founded in 1733, by authority of the Grand Lodge of England. These brothers mentioned were probably the first masons who came to the territory and remain to become permanent residents of it. How does it feel to be part of the lodge? That was the first on the seed. It's, uh, amazing. it carries a lot of weight. It's invigorating, it's historical. It provides a unique perspective to the history, not only of St. John's but of Masonry in general. It, um, encourages us to remember the legacy that has been handed us and. What it takes to contribute to the, how this legacy will be perceived in the future. And that's, that's a, that's a heavy weight, but at the same time, it's inspiring and at the same time, it's exciting and invigorating. coming to that realization and having known the history really provides that push, that, that incentive that doesn't need to be. Ingrained, it doesn't need to be a part of, um, lore. It's, it's something that you can live. It's heavy. The people who came before us in St. John's Lodge, number one, clearly had a vision and. They communicated that vision, not necessarily in writing, but in actions, the standard to which they held themselves. As you look back in our lodge records, as you look back in our, uh, lodge building, those are breadcrumbs that they left for the future that we as 20 25, 20 26 masons. Have to figure out how to lift up and build off of, again, the caliber of men that you just read about is incredible. Free masonry is built into Minnesota, not just through oral tradition or through lodges. It's in our statutes. It's in our actual law. There's a ton of jurisprudence that is left by these lodges and these men that we need to live up to. That's heavy, but it's exciting too. It's really exciting to be able to be a part of that, and it brings a great sense of pride to be able to be a part of something greater than yourself. Joined today by Bill Schoonover and Ben Lacey. Maybe this is a good place for my disclaimer. I get a lot of emails and texts after these episodes. Air. So you featured a b, C lodge, so they like a perfect lodge or something? No. but we do like to feature on this podcast lodges that are dialing into the details. There's no lodge out there that's perfect. Every lodge has some area of opportunity, a challenge, but lodges that have dialed into the commitment to quality, to the detail. How do we deliver the Masonic experience to be the best one it possibly can be? And having visited you guys a couple times this year as we're recording in late December, it's like a snow globe out here today. Beautiful day. Well, sort of if you like snow. Exactly. It's beautiful. a recurring theme that's come up time and again is what does brotherhood look like? Is that a word we say? Is that in the blue book that we memorize, recite, and repeat, or are we living it? Are we on this journey together outside of the lodge? Outside of the lectures, because like we opened with today, the foundation of Blue Lodge is built on authentic brotherhood. Everything else, everything else we do sits on top. If I may read, uh, hold my coffee here, because to borrow an Enders, bism Brotherhood is a constant act. It's a verb. It is not something that we just achieve and then set aside. It is something that we have to constantly work at and build on, and it's something that at its core might start with the simple. Becoming a mason, but then at some point, if you're really doing it, it gets hard. It gets hard to figure out how to take things to the next level. And it, it's particularly hard because in order to do that, you need to figure out and identify what your brother's weaknesses and strengths are. And, and then know your own. And as you learn to engage with weaknesses and strengths, that brings up the idea of pride and brotherhood is this idea that we can, we can whisper good counsel and address the weaknesses, to build the strengths, and together we can form a brotherhood. That is not any one of us. That's not just an action, but it's a togetherness that is elevated. So how does one go about achieving that? Where do you start? Where did St. John start? This is an active pursuit for you guys. 100%. Let me just acknowledge the fact that, uh, St. John's Lodge, number one, almost died. Almost died in the eighties when membership was struggling and masonry in Minnesota was dwindling. St. John's was not without struggle and because of the dedication of about five or six guys that kept it going and kept meeting the grand lad standard. They carried the torch long enough for things to be revived and for brothers to come back to the fold, and for new membership to, with new energy showed up to carry that mantle. So yes, masonry has it struggles, and St. John's is not a, uh, immune to it. Where we started was with intimate conversation and. The discussion about what is masonry and can we be better? And if you, when you look at the history that we are acknowledging and you think about what that means and what's expected of us, I keep referring to the fact that in the 175 year tradition at at St. John's, there's only been 120 worshipful masters. So the privilege of sitting in that role. Is a great one. It's a very few men in Masonry get the opportunity to be a worshipful master of their lodge, especially of one that care that with the history and the, and the, the history of St. John's. So when you, when you approach that chair and you think about what it means to sit there and what you're asked to do in leading the lo lodge and setting the craft to work. It's a lot to process. It's a lot to try to think about, and the paths that were laid down before us sometimes need to be modernized, not improving Masonry. It's not an innovation, not innovation, it's about adapting to the needs of the men in our current community, in our current lodge. That's not. Innovation that's addressing and having introspection and having the compassion to look around the lodge, see what your strengths and weaknesses are, and start feeding your strengths and supporting your brother's weaknesses. Spend more time focusing on finding places for your brother's strengths to be engaged and support or provide for their weaknesses. So where do we start? We started with the hard conversations. Like Ben's saying, we've talked about harmony being the focus for a little while, and it's really, really hard to have harmony be your priority when you're dealing with problems and you're dealing with difference of opinion. Because at the end of the day, that's the strength and support of all societies, especially of ours. Mm-hmm. And so getting to that was one of the many conversations that led to some change in our lodge and some. Some active participation. It goes without saying that we learned the hard way as an organization that it's impossible to build a healthy lodge culture. solely on opening reading the minutes and closing. We say more members, but we lose sight of ensuring that we're providing an ongoing, meaningful and quality experience for decades. We fixated on efficient performance of what we are already doing, and we're somewhat uninterested in what we're missing out on, as we look forward to the future and ensuring that we have a healthy future. The renewed focus has been on basically getting our house in order before we invite people over. The young men of today, the, the, the new generation discovering Freemasonry. The men I talk to are fatigued by the digital isolation, the friendship recession. You hear about that in the media constantly. And between social media, the AI companion apps, I'm not demonizing ai. It's. It's never going away, but we are in the relationship business and we have thousands of men that are subscribing to an AI companion app that are looking for, well, it's an illusion of contact or friendship of meaningful contact. It feels like there's fertile ground in the world right now for what is missing in the lives of. Upstanding men that want to be, they want personal growth. They wanna be that better version of themself. I agree. Reid, the men of Masonry are deeply hungry for content and program. whether it's a podcast, whether it's a table lodge ritual, a committee, it doesn't matter. Guys want to get involved in that, and guys want to be a part of that. And then they want to take that and they want to bring in their families and have their families not go, oh, this is a weird thing that you're a part of that's totally exclusive to men, but rather, oh, you're a part of a group of friends and brothers that are truly trying to create an experience that transcends. The our, our Lives at St. John's One, we just put on a winter ball. Tell us about that. The Winter Ball was a very scripted and particular program that we wanted to put on to bring in our partners and our friends, and what we did was we took. Tickets and you could purchase a ticket as a mason. And with that ticket, you got two more tickets to bring in a friend or another couple or someone who's not a Mason. And we had great attendance, a great opportunity, and when I say it was incredibly scripted, what I mean is when chose not to have a microphone, Hmm. There was no conversation about masonry. We had. A sleigh. We had a dance instructor. We did ballroom dancing. We did no talking. Were you dressed up? We were black tie. Full black tie. Okay. Tuxes the whole nine yards. So no speeches, no lectern, no. Uh, now I'd like to give you the presentation on, so this was not a come join us, but is it more, is it safe to say this was a displaying what? The vibe of Freemasonry is to our members and could be to Absolutely. And it, as a result of that, we transcended that quote unquote weird feeling that our partners regularly communicate to us after coming to a table lodge or a thing that is like, all right, we're gonna talk about Masons, but that's for the Masons. Instead, we had. Partners of ours getting together and, let's say they all collectively had a drink together and had a good time and engaged with each other, engaged with us. And yes, it was a Masonic organized event, but it was not, it was Masonry was the background rather than the foreground. And that changed the content. It's, it's, I've heard nothing but from every attendant attendee that every partner wants to come back. Everybody wants to do it again, and they know who they're bringing next year. What'd you charge for it?$250 a ticket, which admitted four people. Well, I have to ask, how did that go over? Was that a, was there pushback on that? Certainly not a cheap ticket in today's world. But you wanted to do something of an elevated standard or caliber, correct? Correct. Was there pushback? Not loud. we were also very sensitive to the fact that, um, some of our brothers that might not be in their means at the moment. So we made it very much aware that if that was an issue and you would desire to attend, all you had to do was reach out to a certain person and say, this is something that I'd really like to be a part of, but it's outta my means, and we would make that happen for you. At St. John's one, we have something called the lodge Such fund, not a slush fund, a such fund, S-U-C-H-S-U-C-H, where you can apply as such to to get some, uh, help with something like that if you need it. And if we can, the lodge meets it. We regularly receive donations to that. To make sure that people can be a part of it, because yeah,$250 is a lot of money. Mm-hmm. Especially if you're on a fixed income. Um, if you're just going through hard times, you know, you have a kid in sports. Yeah. All of the above. Right. So, we really want to make sure that guys can engage at every level and their families and their friends, and we get there. I get emotional thinking about the event and as Ben was describing it, um. I got teary-eyed again because it was an absolutely beautiful event because of the people who were in attendance and how comfortable everyone felt together, how every single person that came there got on the dance floor and danced with their partner Even if they didn't know how, or maybe weren't the most correct adept dancer to left feet. Yeah. A hundred percent. Beautiful. I even, uh, had to help David Ez, uh, with his dance steps. And so there's a number of pictures of me and him dancing together. Oh. Which, uh, again, that speaks to the community of brothers there, that everyone felt comfortable. Yeah. And felt, warm and welcomed in their own skin. So this was the first of its kind event for St. John's, obviously was very well received and, and members and guests are looking forward to next year. The first thing that comes to my mind is that there are other ways to showcase freemasonry beyond pancakes, and I love pancake breakfast and I go to way too many of them, but if we're going to successfully showcase. Who we are, what our organization stands for. There are other creative ways of doing so, and in a memorable way with elevated standards, an ability to include someone that this may have been a little out of their, maybe not on their line items for the month. And the momentum of that one event is already taken shape for 2026. Even some of the most newly raised brothers-in-law have already come with ideas and suggestions and volunteering to be on whatever committee this needs to be in to make this event. They want to contribute to it, and they wanna be a part of the planning and they wanna be a part of, um, the whole setup and the windup for it, and they wanna help grow it. And this goes back to the idea that our members are, and our brothers are hungry for content, but it's not just the end product of content, it is the process of creating it. There is a closeness that is formed when you plan an event. Or you make a meal for your lodge, rather than assigning one guy, make sure you're assigning a lot of guys to a job. It's not just outsourcing an easy job. Sometimes the easy jobs that can be outsourced are the most easy to engage with a brother and let someone take those easy jobs so that they can build on it and feel successful. the idea for Winter Ball started over a year ago. Um, Ben brought it up to the, the group and we tried to do it as a group, but because it was new and no one really took the ball and ran with it, it didn't happen last year. Ben and I decided we were just gonna do it. We're just gonna do it and we're gonna on a wing and a prayer, make this thing, we're gonna will it into existence, and we just decided to, Hey, let's just hit the ground and let's just get going. Let's plan it. Let's not ask permission. so the point is what we're trying to do here is create something that guys can feel a part of that then feeds everybody's unique need for content. Some people aren't a winner ball person, so what are they? Are they awards banquet? Are they. Do they just want to come to lodge and sit on the sidelines? But what does that look like when they come to lodge? Are they getting the opportunity not to be called out, but to be invited in? And that is what we're trying to build again at St. John's One. It's this idea that guys can be a part of something greater than themselves and engage it in a way that works for them. That requires an immense amount of planning. Structure and intentionality from the leadership of the lodge in communication. Absolutely. I had a brother approach me at our last stated communication and say these words, you know, I don't have the time and space to be in the line but I don't really know how else to engage. And be and contribute. And so what can I do? What can I be a part of? How can I help? What can I, how can I get my, you know, how can I be a part of the lodge? Still wants to serve. Still wants to serve. But the obvious pathways, um, are sometimes the hardest for folks. Yeah, the line is a place to go if you have the dedication, time and energy to commit every Monday of your life, and then two nights a week and everything else that comes with it. All the rehearsals and all the rehearsals and planning ritual and everything else. But it hadn't been made clear to him what other opportunities there were, which was a glaring beacon for me to say, we need to address this and lodge more often. We need to talk about the opportunities and talk about what's available. Yeah, sure. Come to a committee meeting. Well, we're still getting those off the ground and we're still trying to get some energy behind those so it's not always obvious and they are. Relatively infrequent at the moment. So how can people contribute? How can they be a part of the brotherhood? How can they join and find that connection? How transformative would you say that it's been to be focusing on how can we enhance the current system within the lodge versus let's just sit around and complain about the things that aren't going well? Is that, was that a thing? Did you say enough of that? Let's focus on the old corporate cliche of control. The controllables. I love that one. A lot of what we do in lodge, guys don't want to know how the product came to exist. Really? Yes, they want the product, but they don't necessarily want to be a part of it. And if you tell them in advance or give them warning that something is going to. Be different or change that is a clarion cry for, uh, concern. And it's, and, and that concern comes from a place that is love for something that is not where we are anymore. The. Result of that is a lot of the work that we're doing happens in a way that here's a finished product. Well, how did that come to be? Well, we need to write it down and then we can show you, because here's the finished product that you enjoy that had we started. With telling you that, that this thing was gonna change or that thing was gonna change, the level of resistance met, tried and true has been a lot, and I, I want to be clear, that's not disharmony. Like I said, it comes from a place of love and I'm not calling anyone individual out or anything else. In fact, I'm quite hesitant to say all of these things because of obvious reasons. However, it's fun to have fun, and if you can get guys there, then they go, wait, how did this happen? And then you can say, well, we had to change a few things, but look, it's fun. And then guys engage. People are developing themselves, they're developing programs, they're developing content to build off of and realize that this is what they want. But it's hard to communicate that. It's so hard to talk about that, and it requires you to, to plant a seed and then protect that seedling until it can withstand the weather. your most recent master, Lonnie Wrangle really had a focus on the connection piece between friend to friend and brother to brother. How transformative was that? Can you feel it? Is that something that, and that that doesn't just stop because his year is coming to an end. How transformative is that? I think it's representative of the culture shift that St. John's is experiencing in the sense that Lonnie entered that year, feeling empowered and comfortable to talk about brotherhoodhood feelings, emotions, mental health, and open the door to do that in open lodge, real life, real life. And he started with himself and he tried to set the example by speaking about, um, his lived experiences. Yeah. And his, the state of his family and the things that he was struggling with. And he talked about'em openly and he gave opportunity and lodge for other brothers to stand up and share and silently gave space. And people felt comfortable. And not everybody spoke or contributed, but I think the room felt the difference. I think the room felt that. Hey, this is, this is okay in here. Like, all right, even though I wanna talk today, it feels different. And someone may not talk today in real time, but they may reach out via text. It may be offline, it may take some time to process that. The recurring theme of the potential for the Masonic Lodge experience to be a place where that's your life group. That seems so transformative and all the things we've talked about with what the young, young people of today especially are seeking. But that, that's older guys too. Hell, I'm an older guy and I don't want to own that that yet, We're doing this pilot program with Face It Foundation in 2026, part of that was predicated upon several brothers across our state that have had some understandable struggles in life and they did not feel comfortable going to somebody in lodge with that. That breaks my heart because are we not the purveyors of brotherhood that's supposed to be our, our area of specialty? And maybe I've just reached an age now where saying the word versus feeling it in my heart are two very, very different things. And going through the motions, saying the words, I may, I may memorize that ritual word perfect and deliver it as such. And that's a big, we, we wanna do the work. Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that that doesn't matter. That matters hugely. But that equal focus needs to be on is that brother. Are we feeling that in our hearts? Are we, are we on this journey together in an authentic way that I'm not gonna miss Lodge because that's a place where I can go. Share whatever it is on my radar today. Good news, bad news, something in between, a milestone, a struggle, a death in the family, and not be judged and not worry about thinking. My brothers think I'm just some sort of lightweight and can't hold his own. That is a large culture and it's happening and you guys are doing it at St. John's and it's happening elsewhere and it's really becoming. A real and authentic feeling. A few years ago, can't remember if it was Grand Lodge, uh, annual communication or a leadership conference or junior steward or junior warden conference, but I attended a presentation that spoke about the need for Masons to be students of leadership. And during that presentation, the thought occurred to me that while that is intensely true, masons also need to be students of brotherhood. So many of us at different points in our life have come to masonry in search of friendship and brotherhood. A lot of us never had it and don't know how to be good brothers and good friends. We don't have, some of us don't have great experiences in those areas, and so to expect a brother to walk in and know how to be a brother and be a friend. Is an unfair and unrealistic expectation what brotherhood means to us in our heart. It's okay. let it go, man. It needs to be demonstrated. It needs to be lived. We need to set the example for what that brotherhood looks like. We need to create the space in our conversations to get beyond the, Hey, it's snowing outside. You know? Right. So we need to teach brothers how to ask different questions that they're not accustomed or know how to ask. Need to teach brothers. It's okay to be vulnerable because you're gonna get a hug at the end of this, or you're gonna get loved either in words or just deepening your friendship. And that's something we all need to be students of, and we need to be open to that. Going to lodge should feel like you're coming home every single time you have a stated communication. That doesn't mean that everything's always perfect at home. That doesn't mean that you are gonna have your favorite meal every time or what have you, but you're still going home. You know Ozzy Osborne. He wrote a song about that. Yeah, he did. And, and sib to your point, siblings argue. We, we fight a little bit. We do. I've been reading, uh, Robert McCoy's, the Worshipful Master's assistant, and pretty early on in the book, he asserts that. The Worshipful Master's job to keep harmony in the lodge requires the ejection of any brothers that have any known bad blood with each other to go without the lodge, work it out, and then they can come back in until that time occurs, don't come back into the lodge. Well, that is something that. Obviously is from 1918 when that that was written, you know, so it's a hundred year old idea and, and that carries different things. But it highlights this idea that the lodge is a sacred space where you can feel home, you can feel safe, accepted, and able to talk about the hard things that we're talking about, This is a tough one, Reed. Uh, thanks for opening up this thing. The, uh, three years ago about, I went down and by that I mean I went down to the floor. I couldn't get up. my, my wife had to call an ambulance. I was taken to the emergency room. Two calls happened. 9 1 1. Darrel Hick, Darrel's, my neighbor. He's also my brother. Darrell was there in about 30 seconds. From what I'm told, I don't have much recollection of the situation. That's brotherhood. That's this idea of how close we can be and how much trust we can have. You know, it, it's, it could have been any brother to some extent. Uh, Darrell was the closest and Clancy knew it. Geographically, he lived next door and that's her first call. Ben's on the ground. We need help. That's what we're going for here, and that is what we can do. We can support each other, not just at the highs, not just at the winter balls, but at the lowest of lows. It requires a profound amount of trust in your brothers. And it's so beautiful. That's the magic. Amen. Listening to your story made me think of the line of contributing to the relief of distressed master masons. That doesn't have to be just a platitude or a line that we say be your authentic self. As humans, we don't admire people who appear perfect. We admire the people who are imperfect and are comfortable with it. God, the thought of going to lodge is the equivalent of of coming home. Yes, and take off the mask. Be yourself. Share it all when it's appropriate. Let's take that a step further. We talk about time and the limited time that we have. If Lodge is coming home and we go to that spiritual building, that house not made with hands eternal in the heavens when our time passes. When our time is done on this earth, if we did it right, we're just going home. I'll tell you another story. It's about, uh, a dear brother of mine and a phobia. Uh, I am deeply scared of funerals. Really? Yeah. And why? Uh, when I was a kid, my, uh, grandfather, well, my grandmother passed, and my grandfather was very insistent. We have an open casket. I was in about fourth grade and that weirded me out in a way that I couldn't really overcome or haven't hadn't, I should say, until about a week ago where I called up my brother Bill and I said, uh, we need to support our brother. Bill said, no problem. I'll be with you. And we went to a funeral and we supported our brother. In that moment, we, uh, we got to do the verb of brotherhood and we got to support, and, you know, it, it was, it was moving and it was an opportunity to not just, uh, provide brotherhood to the, the brother that that lost somebody, but it was an opportunity for. Someone else to help me. O another brother helped me overcome a fear and in turn I could engage in an act of, of brotherhood myself. It's, uh, it's about those opportunities. That's the point. You know, it took me a minute to connect the dots on that because my father-in-law who. The past, rather suddenly in early December, and I'm gonna be honest, when you two showed up, that was more moving to me than everything else happening. I mean, the, the beauty of you didn't know my father-in-law, but that wasn't the point. You were there to support. Andrea and me and and family. And I gotta tell you, that was still something the family's talking about. Who is this group of Mason? Who are these guys? They do they know Paul? No. And we talked about, we talked this through that, that that's, that's what free masonry is or can be. And it was such a beautiful thing. Yep. And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's not easy. Sometimes we have to overcome fears. Sometimes we have to be vulnerable. Sometimes we have to ask for help in order to provide help and all that is okay, and we will grow as a part of that. I heard back from a brother who listened to a prior episode and we talked to Mark and Bill from the Faceit Foundation, and he liked the idea of going in that direction, going in this direction of being able to freely talk about anything going on in life across the spectrum, good, bad, and otherwise. The concept of that beehive we share as needed. The thing that he was hung up on maybe was a little reluctant himself to be the one to lead the conversation, but was apprehensive about hearing someone else be vulnerable or to maybe someone's timing wouldn't be perfect as they, It takes a little self-awareness perhaps to not just walk into the room and lead off with, hi, bill. Hi Ben. I'm going to dump everything on you right now, right here. Sure. And point taken, but instead of getting into the weeds on that, the, the, I shared with him, the bigger focus is on we, we have friends, brothers, family in need. They need to know that they're loved, wanted and needed within our ranks. And if we start with that, it's not complicated, it's not hard. That is changing the lodge culture to be a place I'm not gonna miss coming home. Sorry for crying all the time. No, I've I dude, I love it. I can't help it. That's uh, it's just beautiful stuff. No, it's beautiful stuff. Bill, if all jobs had the same pay and hours, which job would you like to have? the best job I ever had, the favorite job I ever had was I was an outdoor bartender@the.cafe at Stillwater, and the bar was so situated that you were outside. Sunken so that a person who was standing up you, your head was about waist high. But what that provided was an absolutely gorgeous view of the river. And I could play any music I wanted, I could play as long as it was appropriate, of course. Sure. And everybody who came on a summer's day in Stillwater was happy. They were happy to be there. If the bar, if the outside bar was open, that meant that it was sunny and the sun was shining. Very few people were upset. People didn't mind waiting. It was just a really cool, calm, easy environment. Ben, what about you? Sounds made up, but it's true. I'm a dual citizen of the United States in Bermuda, and I worked on a fishing boat in high school one summer. I struggled with waking up at four o'clock in the morning riding my moped to, uh, the Fisherman's house. And, uh, he's a pretty, pretty big fisherman. He's, he, one of his claims to fame was he'd taken out like the last six presidents of the United States or something like that on the boat. And, uh, you know, secret Service went on and all those things and it was cool. And he's a pretty famous guy in Bermuda. He, um. He had one job for me and it was pretty plain and simple. I carried the dead fish and I brought the sharks onto the boat. Uh, we would fish for shark by, uh, way of freezing five gallon buckets of chum onto Imagine like a little try hook. Like on a rapa, but we're talking about, it looks like a grappling hook and a shark hits on the chum and bam, we would get two or three sharks on a line. We'd put a buoy in the water in the morning. The chum would melt throughout the day. The sharks would frenzy, they'd hit on it and we'd pull 200 feet of rope up and there'd be a shark every 50 feet or so. And I was the idiot that tried to get him in the boat. And uh, you know, I was also the guy. I was in pretty good shape at that point. Did this pay well? Uh, no. Terribly it paid in experiences though. Uh, and, uh, I was the guy that was able to. Lift a shark into a boat, you know, because they're like 300 pounds and you could pay for your entire day's fuel with one shark, which is pretty cool. that's, that's, uh, something that someone wouldn't necessarily think is true about me. So there you go. What's the hardest decision you've ever made? What you think? I have a, I have a backup. What do you hope your obituary will say? Oh, The two down. No, no, no. Not at all. Um, because the reason I find this question fascinating, Brad Phelps was on, He said, I am so tired of learning all these fascinating things about my brothers and friends at their funeral. Yeah. Rather than the obituary, because I've delivered a few, I hope the eulogy is the details. I hope the eulogy is where, um, let's go with that. What do you, what do you hope? Hmm. Short order? What do you. loving husband, dedicated father committed to the craft of masonry. You can outline some of my highlights, like Ben shared about life experiences, but the impact I hope I have and can continue to have on the people that I love. What dessert will you always order if it's on the menu? Chocolate mousse. Uh, and it can't have, uh, any kind of chunks in it. I do not like chunky chocolate mousse. It is by its nature, supposed to have just the smoothest creamiest delicious flavor, and that's exactly like chili can have beans in it. Don't even get me started. On what he's gaslighting me with chili, with beans. We have an ongoing conversation and story. Uh, it is, it is my, um, personal opinion and the opinion of the, international Chili Society. That chili does not have beans in it. Can it not? Chili without beans is soup, isn't it? That absolutely not What? Nope. Chili. Is meat and peppers that are stewed to the point of extracting the flavors of those Texas chilies and it is meat. beans are a filler that Midwesterners put in chili to stretch it out. Have we been doing it wrong the whole time up here? Midwesterners have been doing chili wrong the whole time. Wow. Now I will say that I enjoy chili with beans in it when so declared. I thought we only had the tater tot hot dish wrong, or the bean casserole. But now we've been doing chili like, oh, you, if you go to a chili fest, uh, in the Midwest, you're gonna see chili with corn in it, chili with noodles in it, chili with beans in it, and that that's not, you're getting into casserole and hot dish territory there. Mm-hmm. That's not chilly anymore. I've learned so much today. Bill Schoonover. Ben Lacey. We need to meet for dinner and dessert sooner than later. Thank you for being guests today. Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you, Reid.