Episode 125: The Road Ahead (ft. Shawn Carrick)

This week we’re honored to welcome MWGM Shawn Carrick to the studio for a meaningful conversation on the heart of Masonry. Together, we explore everything from the importance of Masonic travel and the lasting relationships it builds, to strengthening community visibility and embracing our shared sense of purpose.

“We need to get back to the basics of Masonry, and be there for each other, in word and deed.”

Our Grand Master offers inspiring insight into Masonic fundamentals, the obligations we’ve taken to support one another, and the responsibility we carry to lead by example as mentors within our gentle Craft.

“We can all be better, but it requires constant effort to make that rough ashlar more perfect and truly try to be better.”

Join us for an uplifting discussion centered on brotherhood, service, and the timeless values that continue to shape Freemasonry today.

Transcript

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You pursued Freemasonry in 2006, and at the time, the odds were that you might not even join. Can you share what happened to you when you first reached out to a lodge? My job prevented me from really being able to interact with a lot. Everyone would ask what I do, and I would tell them I'm a paper pusher. Uh, at the time, I worked for US Immigration, one of the most hated agencies in the world. and people were either completely for it or completely against it. But no matter what, I really couldn't open up because everyone would judge everything I was saying. And a gentleman that I was working with, Brother, uh, Worshipful Brother Eric Bishop, had just joined the Montgomery Lodge and was going through the degrees, and I thought, "Well, this is an opportunity, I think, that might be good," because Eric would talk about how no one judged him, and no one really cared what he did for work. So I decided I'd go looking for a lodge in the town I lived in, which was Red Wing, and it was during the late spring, early summertime. And I was calling the lodge, no answer. I'd leave messages. 2006 voicemail or, uh, answering machine, right? Uh, yep, that's right. And, uh, tried stopping by, and because the lodge was on the second floor, I'd walk in 'cause the law office, I, I found out later, was the renters. And I'd walk up, and the door was always locked, and I'd walk back down and walk out. And finally, I went to Eric's and said, "Can you give me another number? I'm interested in joining the lodge in Red Wing. What can you do?" So he gave me a couple numbers, and I called those numbers, and no one answered. And finally, I went into work one day and said, "You know, it shouldn't be this hard, Eric. All I wanna do is, is become a Mason." And he's like, "Oh, well, since you've asked me, here, fill this blue form out." And that was the start of a journey that I didn't really realize the impact it would have on my life and where it would take me. I ended up, uh, filling out the petition, turned it in, and again, this was during the summertime No one explained anything to me about, well, we're dark in the summer, and that family is- that's a good time for family. No one told me I'd have to wait until September before I heard- Oh, man anything. And so here I'm thinking, "Okay, I've turned in a petition. No one's called me back." Nothing. Nothing at all. Wow. And I really didn't go back to Eric because I figured he'd done everything he could at that point, and I was about to give up. And at the time, I worked out at the Minneapolis Airport, uh, dealing with passengers coming in internationally. And this older gentleman, came up and looked at me, and I asked, "What, why are you coming here?" He said, "Well, I'm coming for my 31st degree." So this is a passenger who just arrived, and you're meeting him at customs, essentially. Yep. Didn't know him. Never, never met him before in my life. Didn't even- Older gentleman, and he said the 31st. The 31st degree, and I knew that there was 32 degrees within the Masonic fraternity. I really didn't understand what that meant, but I'm like, "Oh, you're amazing." He's like, "Well, yes, I am." And we talked for a little bit, and there was a lot of passengers, so he went on his way. And I thought, "Well, that's kinda neat, meeting an older guy, and he's really proud of it." So I kinda waited, and, um, they asked me to come down to the lodge to meet some of the guys. So I went down there, and I was surprised that they were willing to continue forth with my application because they gave me a tour of the St. Paul Masonic Center, and if you've been there, the back sound room stairwell, they've redone it now, but it was a very steep- Oh stairs. I remember this. And I ended up taking a step from a- about the fifth stair up as I was going down, and I decided, "You know what? What the heck? Let's just skip all the rest of the stairs." Oh, no. I fell down, ended up breaking a coffee pot, glass one, ripped or cut the pants on one of my legs from knee down to the ankle, and sliced my leg where I still have the scar to this date. And I'm thinking, "Oh, great. What an impression I just left on these guys. There's no way this is gonna happen." I went on my way that night. No one told me what was to expect. The next day, I was working that Canadian flight, and in comes that same guy. And this- Same guy same guy, and I asked him, "So what's the purpose for your trip?" And he's like, "I'm here for my 32nd degree." And he was the last passenger, and I didn't have anything for a couple hours. I'm like, "Mind if I escort you to your plane? I'd love to ask you some questions." And we had a wonderful discussion as I walked him through the airport, and I ended it with what I think is probably the most important question that I had back then of, "If you had it to do over again, what would you do differently?" And he looked at me, didn't bat an eye. I would've started much sooner." His Masonic journey Yes. And that really taught me that, okay, maybe I need to be waiting a little bit longer, give it more patience. Um, the next week, I got a phone call, "Congratulations. You've been elected to receive the degrees in Montgomery Lodge," and they gave me some information of where to report, and all I could think of is, is that maybe the Supreme Architect had a hand in this, to run into a guy two times in a row, and then I've never seen him again since then. Never? Never. That's a great story. I had not-- I had no idea. It's a bit of a cautionary tale of what happens when the lodge assumes that someone's checking the voicemail or even the email now, or the Grand View pipeline All these cryptic references of the lodge is dark for the summer and, and that insider terminology, as an outsider, you had no idea, number one, and number two, it's very easy to assume that silence, no response means, "Eh, they must not be interested in me." And that was my biggest worry, 'cause I was trying to find something that I could call mine. I'd put my family first all the time. Work had to come first because that's how I was able to care for my family. But I was looking for something that would be more meaningful, where I could actually have a discussion with someone who wouldn't judge me based on where I worked, and that I could actually have someone that I could confide in. 'Cause at work, it's nice to have coworkers, but that's not the kind of relationship where you wanna be able to confide in someone, in my opinion. Now, looking back, what an amazing start t-to my journey. What personal experience within the lodge has been the most impactful to you at this point? Um, I would have to say probably receiving the degrees was the most impactful. The Entered Apprentice I've always held as this is the most important degree, uh, with, uh, anyone that's starting this journey. and it wasn't until years later where I really realized my initiation was the same going back for centuries now that others have done. But that first degree, listening to the lectures, starting with the senior steward's little lecture- Yeah so p- impactful, so powerful, and every time I get the opportunity to give it or just to listen to it being given, it kinda sends chills up the back of my neck, because I can relive my degree still every time. Never gets old, does it? No, it doesn't. It's, it's something that I keep telling everyone, that it's not going through the degrees that's what's important. They're impactful. But it's coming back and re-witnessing them, because someone may say something just a little differently or something changed in your life that now what they're saying with their lectures or during the degree, suddenly things come together and it makes sense, and it's a very impactful moment years later. Even today, I attend different degrees, and I was talking with my son, who's a Mason in Red Wing, and I'm like, "I never really contemplated this point." And we talked about it on a car ride, and it was one of the most enjoyable car rides, 'cause not only was I having a great conversation with a son, he was my brother also. What's that like? It's, it's something I really enjoy. Both my, both my boys petitioned the lodge when they were of age, and my one son went off to school in Boston. He's continuing his education to earn his PhD, and I'm very proud of him for that. Uh, my younger son, Joseph, is currently the senior warden, and watching him on his own progress forward, it's a sense of pride. We talk about w- what we leave behind, the impact we have, and watching what he has become and how he interacts and takes it so seriously to make himself better, but also to help others within the lodge, it's something that I wasn't sure they would really understand. But they both have blown my mind out, because they're both doing it in different ways. That's something that crosses my mind with some frequency. My grandfather was a Mason, the Greatest Generation, basically passed along to my father, the Silent Generation. My dad never asked, and he never joined, and broke the chain of generations of Masons in the family. And my, my dad's still with us and, and we're close. Everything's cool. But that, that is something that I just so wish we had shared that experience together. He's 85 now, and he, he's not going to join. That, that ship sailed years and years ago. But it- it's really special to see the father to son, even the grandfather to grandson connection, to see a young man... And I, I've watched Joseph grow up over the years, and now seeing him at the annual communication, he's a grown man, and he's a, a, a elected lodge officer. It's, it's so great to see that evolution if we want to admit it or not, we are passing the torch to that next generation. We are, and it's something that I'm so proud of. I'm a first-generation Mason. I've went through the archives, and I don't see anyone else in my family line having been a Mason before. I do have relatives that have been Masons, and I know of some individuals that were close family associates for my grandmother who were Eastern Star members, so that tells me now someone was a Mason in that family. Yeah. But none in my actual ancestry line that I can find. But it's-- I'm very proud to have started that tradition in our family and to watch my boys both each make that decision themselves. It's an honor to have Grand Master of Masons in Minnesota, Sean Carrick, with us today. I really appreciate that you try to talk about the possibilities of the future and not dwell on the failures of the past, for lack of a better way to put it. how do you think Freemasonry stays relevant to that younger demographic now, while still maintaining some of our beloved and ancient traditions? I believe that each generation of Masons has a different thing they're looking at. I've done the research. I've seen what other people have put in about older Masons wanting to do more of the charity work And the younger Masons are all about the esotericness of Masonry. However, I think that nowadays, the younger Masons actually have a combination of both. They're really looking for becoming part of something bigger from a charity standpoint, being active in the community, but they also understand the importance of the lessons of Masonry as they're receiving them, because I see younger guys wanting to become monitors, custodians. They're willing to step up and do the different work for the degrees, or even understudy for them. That tells me right there that they're gonna keep our traditions alive, but we also need to meet them and what their needs are, which is they wanna be active in the community, and they wanna have a, a feeling of purpose, and they're hoping that Masonry can actually provide this. And that's something that comes up quite frequently when talking about the Masonic experience, is they're to provide purpose. And to a younger man today, that is authentic friendship. That's the ability to put the phone down, to log off from the device, and connect face-to-face and human-to-human with another future friend and brother. I can never stress the community engagement part enough, because 85, 90% the new guys we talk to that say, "Hey, I'm interested in learning more about your organization," the number one request Can I give back to the... Will I have the opportunity to give back to the greater good if I become a Mason?" And that's a huge priority in our lodge travels to ensure that we are engaging in the community and have a visibility of doing just that, of providing comfort, relief, giving back to the greater good to those in need. Well, and I have those discussions with those brothers on a regular basis over the last eight, 10 years about the fact that, yes, we do have that part of Masonry that, yes, we're active in the community, we do charitable work, but that is not our purpose. Our purpose, in my opinion, is to give the different men that come forward, knock on our door, and are accepted, the tools for themselves to make a change for the better of themselves. to contemplate life choices or their morals. The side effect of going through the degrees and being active in the lodge is a benefit to society. We talk about the fact we'll be better individuals within our community, but the side effect is, as lodges do different events in the community, the community's gonna be benefiting from this. Red Wing Lodge is a great example, that every year we hold the Salsalicious contest. This last year was our biggest year yet, and with the help of the Masonic Charities on those that were approved, because not everyone gets approved, there are rules to this, we raised over $100,000 in one year alone And yes, the Masons were very active in it, but that's because by putting on this event, the brothers are learning how to organize an event, how to fundraise, how to interact with others and get them to volunteer for the events. This is not something you just walk in and say, "Okay, everyone's gonna show up, and it's just gonna magically happen." Right. It takes a lot of work, and it takes the whole village to put on this event. We have brothers that, because of their work schedules and family life, they c- really can't make it to lodge, but that event, they come out of the woodwork to help make that event a success. Over 25 nonprofits were the beneficiaries of the event just to get it in front of everyone. Over 350 people show up every year. Um, the venue, the St. James Hotel's ballroom upstairs. Doesn't get any better. No. No. You're overlooking the river. Yes. It's a beautiful venue, and watching everyone dress up, make a great booth design, and let's be honest, getting to eat salsa- Oh. It doesn't get better than that. No. For an easy fundraiser that makes such a difference, not in the lives of the Masons, but the community and those that those different organizations also impact. You touched on something important, that it's not just writing a check to an organization in need. Now, that's not a bad thing. I don't wanna diminish the power of, here's some resources to help those in need. But the real power comes from the bonding as a lodge when the brothers and their families get together and, and execute this event together. They, they put all of their time, their talents, their efforts into the many, many layers. This is a complicated event, but with so many hands that come out to help, like you said, the, the members of the lodge and the surrounding lodges even come out to participate in this. it's such a wonderful feeling, and hard to describe we just did something to help our entire community, and, and to get to know our neighbors, too. Well, and I talk about Salsalicious, but across the state, lodges are doing these kind of events, having great success, and becoming active where when you go to those communities and ask them about the event and if they know about it, the different individuals that I've talked to at, in Mankato regarding the Wine Fest, Winona- Which did Salsa Rica. We helped give them all the information, they rebranded it, and they're having success. And people in the community know that those events are Masonic-driven and that the lodge is the one that's really helping push it on. Those are the places where the lodge has taken and moved forward with it and made a difference, not just for the lodge, but the community. And when the community knows about you, that's, that's publications in, in their mind that can't be taken back. For those that have never been to Salsalicious, they definitely need to check that out in April of next year. What other initiatives on the charitable giving back to the greater good front, what would you like to see developed further when we look forward to the future? I really think that lodges, each individually, need to work together. And I say that because not many lodges are doing large events in the community, and they're not sure how to get started. But I've talked with the brothers in Mankato. I've said, "If someone comes to you, are you willing to share the information?" They're absolutely willing to share it and give them all the information they can. They're not gonna do it for them, but they're gonna give them everything so they can be successful. And I would love to see more lodges in their communities try to do something, because you're gonna take the teachings of the Masonic fraternity and turn them into a fundraiser where you're gonna be able to say, "Not only did we raise funds, but I made myself better, and I know I made myself better because this is what we were able to accomplish together." You and I were on the road together a few days ago, and that conversation came up, one lodge asked a brother from a different lodge, "How did you plan and execute this amazing event that you have?" And the way that brother answered it, it wasn't, "Well, let me tell you what we're doing right now." He backed up and said, "Let me give you some perspective on when we were in your position, trying to get this rolled up the hill," basically. Wow, that s- that was so huge for him to hear, Let's back up and talk about what it takes to get all of these layers organized before we push forward," and can take that perspective of knowing we're gonna build on this event for the next several years. And not just give up because the one time we tried it, it wasn't a home run or didn't raise $100,000 on the first time out. Well, and I think that's important to note. We've been doing this event for 16 years, and when I hear brothers talk about the fact that, "Well, we wanna do this," the first year, I think we raised $2,000 only But it was a start At the time, that was big. It, it was. We didn't think... It didn't, we didn't lose money. Yeah. That's kind of an important thing. But when you hear brothers basically step back in the process and say, "Well, this is how it started, and here's w- what we were looking at, and this is how long it took," realistically telling them what they can kind of expect, it's amazing to watch brothers say, "Well, so we're not gonna make $100,000 the first year?" Well, if you do, I'm gonna tip my hat off, because that would be amazing. But most places, you start real small making something and getting people to buy in. And as it grows, and is grown correctly, that's when you're gonna see it pay off in the long run. And ultimately, when you get to be real successful, an individual can walk into the city and basically say, "Do you know about the Masonic lodge?" Oh, yeah, they take care of Salsa Rico," or th- well, "There's a wine fest that's coming up. You probably need to be there for that." And it's really nice when you can go into a really small community. I went down to a lodge I was visiting, and I missed the lodge's entrance. It was just a little sign. So I went to the grocery store, 'cause I figured I'd get something to drink, and the woman that was the cashier, I asked her, "So you wouldn't happen to know where the lodge is?" And as soon as I asked the question, "Oh, you mean those guys? Yeah, they, it's that building down there. They take care of the football game. They do some fundraisers." And for five minutes, she was telling me about a lodge. I, my first thought was, "So your husband's a member?" "Oh, no, we have no Masons, but they're really great guys." When the small-town community has that kind of individual in the grocery store that knows all about it and is so proud about those- Yeah brothers, that really warms my heart, and it says that Masonry isn't dead. It is there, but we have to be able to properly interact with the communities. A simple request for directions that led to a positive editorial about all the amazing things the Masons are doing in the community. That, that is huge. It... And I've done that at different lodges. I went up north, and I saw the lodge, but I needed to get some gas and walked in. I figured I'd just ask the gas attendant, "Do you know where the lodge is?" "Well, yeah, it's that white building on the corner with all the glass windows. The guys are usually having a smoke with some cigars before lodge. However, if you wanna see the lodge, you have to go to the side door, because that goes right up to the lodge." And the person, I, I thought must be a member. Of course. "No, uh, we just know the guys. They're really nice guys, and they come and get gas here, and they're nice to interact with," basically. What is your long-term vision for the Grand Lodge of Minnesota under your leadership? I think that the leadership of the Grand Lodge is to support lodges. I was recently asked during, after the installation, or a statement more of, that I hope you have a good year. And my stance right back was, "The only way I have a good year is if the lodges have a good year." Grand Lodge has been seen as the parent, and yes, Grand Lodge is the parent, but we're supposed to be there to help support and strengthen lodges, the members, and be there for them, giving them guidance. We're not there to, to paint the walls for you, but we'll help you connect resources so that you can be successful. I think that at the Grand Lodge, we have been having lots of discussions. I've been very g- close with the brothers behind me on the corporate board because I don't believe in having a one-and-you're-done type event. I believe that we need to all be on the same road going forward, and every year, of course, there's gonna be a little deviation because every Grand Master wants to have their own impact, and that's great. But over about the last 10 to 12 years, I've seen a change from what I've seen in the past. We have a corporate board that is working together. There is very little disconnect from what I see, and we get the input before we go forward with a lot of decisions because the worst thing I think I can do is just make a decision unilaterally. That's gonna be one and done, and how does anyone really do good at that? How would you describe the difference with the progressive line, the corporate board, now versus the year that you were appointed as the Junior Grand Steward? The year I actually was appointed was one where I made a couple promises to Steve, and when he actually said, "I'd like to appoint you," I-- he started out by saying, "So if I appoint you, you know that normally, uh, as a junior member, the Junior Grand Steward, you're supp- basically supposed to sit there and keep your mouth shut and just observe what's going on." And I- Take it all in, yeah. Take it all in and, and then you can learn. And I looked at him and said, "Well, then that's gonna be a problem I can't accept- because I can't keep my mouth shut. If I feel strongly about something, I'm gonna make my opinion known." I said, "I understand I have no vote for the first two years, but that doesn't mean that I keep quiet because I might have a different perspective." And I know that in times past, talking to past Grand Masters, that used to be the standard. The first two years, you're not supposed to really say anything. You're just there to observe since you're not a voting member. However, I see now that we bring in the Junior Grand Steward every year, we kind of expect that they're gonna let us know what their thoughts are if they feel strongly about something, because everyone doesn't have all the answers. But working together, we're able to come up with better answers, and maybe they'll see something that they hadn't seen. I started the Wayfaring Man program as an example, and when I started it, I had to present to the corporate board, and that was, uh, years before I was a area deputy. I walked in and I presented, and I, I'd been working on this presentation for weeks. I thought, "I've got every point covered." And I stood in front of 10 guys, I gave the presentation, and I walked out of there almost with my tail between my legs because I basically got spanked with 10 other questions- that I never understood or contemplated, and I realized they all had good points, all 10 of them. And that's the strength of the corporate board and Grand Lodge. It's not just one person, but together they're trying to protect the interests of the craft for the long term. We can make decisions that are short-term in, in vision, but when we get together and try to make that vision into the next century, that's when we have success. And you were appointed by Steve Johnson? I was appointed by Steve Johnson. Uh, p- he passed away 10 days into his term, so I lost my Masonic father right away. Uh, I was real fortunate, however. The past Grand Masters all were willing to give guidance, and there's always that thought of, well, you know, they're gonna, you're gonna have the, the viper den of past masters of a lodge. Well- you're gonna have a viper den of past Grand Masters. Yeah, what's that like? Never saw it at all. Brothers, the past Grand Masters would come up, "I'm willing to be there if you have a question," and then they'd walk away. Mm. Just gave me the offer, and when I'd ask for some guidance or some assistance on what they thought, they'd give me the answers that I asked for. No input about, "Well, this is what I think you need to do," which was completely contrary to what everyone else was warning me I was gonna have because- Yeah Steve wasn't around. It was very empowering to know that I had so many guys that were willing to help give me guidance when asked, but not push their influence on me. Do you recall getting that phone call that Steve had passed away suddenly? It still chokes me up to th- today. Uh, he had passed away, and I had seen him just a couple days before at Newport Lodge, and I told him, "You, you don't look real good." And he, "Oh, I'll be fine. I'm, I'm gonna go get checked out in a couple days." Mm. I never would've realized that the couple days he'd be gone. Um, he was very instrumental in a lot of things that I'd had in my Masonic life. When he was just an appointed officer, we were going out with Dayton Burg out to, uh, the southwest corner of the state for an education conference 'cause I was serving, uh, uh, as the education coordinator for the Grand Lodge, and I was gonna give a presentation. On the way back, I'm sitting in the backseat just enjoying the ride, and Steve turns around, looks at me, "So, you wanna be Grand Master?" Which- Uh, excuse me? Yeah. Uh, you're not even on the appointed line. And he wasn't even appointed for a couple more years at- after that, but it caught me off guard. And I've read lots of books about proper Masonic protocols. Well, if the craft finds me worthy, which I believe is, it's not just protocol. The craft needs to find you worthy. Yeah. I'd, I'd be honored to serve if, if- But you said all the things I said all the right things- Right that I saw. And he looked at me, "I, I've asked you a direct question. I'd like a direct answer." And I looked at him. "Yes, I think I could do some good being the Grand Master. I think that there is room for improvement every year, and I think that I could do something for the positive, uh, benefit of the craft if given the opportunity." I never realized that a number of years later I'd be sitting across from him, uh, having lunch, and he would offer me that opportunity that, "I'm gonna let you know, I'm gonna appoint you. However, you can't tell anyone at all." For a long time no less. For a number of years. Yeah. And I'm like, "Well, I have to tell my wife." "Yeah, but none of you can tell anyone." I'm like, "Okay." I found out years later it was the worst-kept secret 'cause Steve kept telling everyone apparently. Of course he did. But the fun thing was Dayton Burg actually asked, uh, Anne, my wife, "So, you kinda proud about what's your, uh, husband's gonna get? Well, what did he sign up for now, Anne?" I, and she went off on him a little bit and, and caught him off guard. On the drive home after that event, she's like, "Yeah, Dayton tried to get me to tell him, but I didn't tell him anything." Good job, Anne. And I think he was shocked. I, oh, yes, great job, Anne. How would you describe your most important primary goal, and what's your most important secondary goal in the year ahead? My most important primary goal is to have Masons, Eastern Star members, and the youth realize we are a, and Shriners, Scottish Rite, York Rite, everyone realize we are a Masonic family. we can either die together or we can grow together. So often we don't go to other events. It's strictly just our own lodge. Even going 15 miles outside of our comfort zone doesn't happen. It's those kind of things that need to change right now because when we support other lodges, even once a year, the difference that can make for those brothers that we go and support is so important. And at the annual communication, I put out the challenge. Over the next year, if you can attend one DeMolay chapter meeting, one Bethel meeting, just two meetings in 12 months, the impact that's gonna have on the youth is gonna be huge. And don't stop there. You have the Shrine events. You have York Rite events, Scottish Rite events. There is so much that we can do to support each other. And it doesn't mean you have to be a member. Eastern Star, I went up for the Grand Eastern Star meeting this year, spent the whole weekend out there-- up there, talked to people outside the door because I'm not a member, I can't sit in on the closed sessions. But I had wonderful discussions about the future of both organizations together, and they seemed a little surprised to see me hanging around as much as I did. But it's important that as the leader, I shouldn't be a hypocrite. I'm challenging everyone to visit the other events. I better lead by example, and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Um, make it to all the different major bodies events that are the major ones because, Blue Lodge needs to be my priority. That's who elected me. But being there for the 32nd Scottish Rite degree up in Duluth was so amazing. Watching the guys when I walked through the door that didn't know I was showing up, they'd come over, "Well, I didn't think you were gonna come up here." I'm trying to lead by example. And furthermore, this is an important night for those individuals going through that degree. I wanna be here to support them. And that's something that I've talked about for years. It's not a new thing for me. I'm trying to live the things that I've been preaching for so long. As for the secondary one, it's really supporting the youth groups. We have a couple brothers, uh, one up in Duluth area, one in St. John's Lodge that's going through the, the two degrees, and he's about to go through his third degree, who came to us from DeMolay. And talking with them, I'm willing to bet that one of the reasons they actually continued their Masonic journey wasn't because, well, it's what I have to do. It's because this is what I wanna do because of the men who made an impact on me. I wanna be a part of that also. We talk about the fact that DeMolay doesn't join that much. The question I would put out there is, if we're not supporting them, how are they supposed to know the brotherhood that they can continue to experience once they've aged out of DeMolay? We need to improve that. Yeah. Sometimes we probably assume that somebody else is being the mentor, somebody else is having that conversation with the younger Mason or with some of our involvement with s- like in DeMolay. I'm thinking about the brothers at St. John's Lodge who have made a commitment to ensure that that mentor-mentee dialogue is actually happening, and not just talk about it and say, "Yeah, we're all for that," and then go on autopilot and think the guy next to me is taking care of that. They're very proactive pursuing that as a, a real initiative for them in their lodge. Well, I saw that at Newport Lodge most recently. Uh, their district deputy, Bill, was there, and he's out of, uh, St. John's Lodge- Yes with Caden, who is one of their candidates going through the f- he's went through the first two and about to go through the third degree, and they were sitting side by side, and they were having some conversations, and I had pointed out the fact that here we have a great mentor-mentee relationship, and of course, one of them says, "Well, we were just saying some jokes back and forth," but think about that. If you weren't a mentor, would have that happened? Right. They were feeling comfortable enough, and I asked the question of everyone in the room, "Who here is a mentor?" Only a few guys raised their hands, and I said, "No, everyone is a mentor. You may not realize it, but you're gonna have an impact on individuals, and it's that impact that makes you a mentor, even if you're not their official mentor." I have a mentee with Red Wing Lodge that I, I truly cherish the relationship I've had with him because out of the blue, we'll text back and forth just to do a check-in. Not just once a month at lodge, and I have come to expect that check-in because it brings a smile to me. Yeah. On, on my worst days, if he all of a sudden sends a little text and tells me about his wine making, I kinda smile because he felt good enough to share it with me, and it just lifted my spirits, and all he did was text. Could you imagine if we have individuals that would reach out to brothers on a consistent basis? We wouldn't have some of the problems we talk about with n- dropping for non-payment of dues or, um, not coming back after the first degree. Yeah, stay- It's building those bridges yeah, stay connected. Everyone has something to teach you, even if neither of you knows it yet. Exactly. Isn't that a beautiful thing that can happen within the lodge setting? I even see that with my son. So I've been watching as he's been progressing up the different chairs. Uh, the last few years, I volunteer to be the Tyler, so I'm not there when they do their annual vote. I remove myself from that- Yeah 'cause I think that's more appropriate than being in the room, and some guys have disagreed with me. But he's taught me about being there for others. Uh, they started a new initiative in Red Wing that was, uh, the last Wednesday of the month to get together, work on ritual, or just talk, and I forgot about it. And I was talking to my son, "Hey, you wanna go out for dinner?" "Well, I'm busy, Dad." Oh, and I had to ask him, "What's going on?" "You forgot, we have that Wednesday, last Wednesday of the month." I'm like, "Oh, I won't be back soon enough." He's like, "Don't worry, I got this." And he was gone, and he came back a couple hours later, and they... He told me about a wonderful time they had, and I kinda felt disappointed I couldn't have been there to support him more. But it reaffirms the fact that different lodges that have these kind of activities going on are there for their brothers, and I'm so proud to see that. Who have some of your mentors been, both in lodge or even in life in general? Um, probably one of the most inf- the two inf- most influential are two brothers from Montgomery Lodge. When I first started, uh, Worshipful Brother Ken White and Worshipful Brother Bob Wickey, who passed away just recently. Uh, th- when I first g- went through my first three degrees, Ken would come up and, "Okay, what are you doing on this night?" I'm like, "Well, I'm free." And he's like, "Great. We're going up to this lodge." And he was an area deputy and we'd go traveling and it was great. He, he taught me about how important it is to travel to other lodges because the relationships you're gonna build, not just with your own lodge, but across the state and how fun it is. Uh, Worshipful Brother Bob, he taught me about the Masonic charities and how important it is to build these relationships. Not so much because, well, because you have a relationship, it's gonna make everything easier. I think that people undervalue that relationship building. Yeah. Um, you're one that you have the perfect phrase, authentic relationships. When you build them, it's not because you're looking for something, it's because you actually care about the people, and when people feel, feel cared for, they're much more willing to go out of their way to help you, to try to resolve issues or to kinda teach you, well, yeah, you submitted for th- this matching funds, but it's not eligible, and they take the time to really explain it rather than just say it's rejected. Talk about learning on the fly and having one mentor teach me something that's been so impactful over the years. It came up in a presentation recently that if you're not good at talking about the little things on a regular basis, it's nearly impossible to talk about the big things. And that really flowed right into the discussion we had about the pilot program we're doing with the FACIT Foundation. We partnered with them for the next five years. We have three lodges chosen as pilot lodges, one in the north, one in the central, one in south. And they're not coming in to change anything per se. They're helping us enhance the foundation of brotherhood that we already have. But all too often, we may be a little preoccupied, opening the lodge, signing paperwork. We, we have all these administrative things we need to do. We don't want brotherhood to feel like a, a, a vague or an abstract concept. I- if we are in the business of brotherhood, we want that felt in the heart and not just a word we say because it's in the book. It's a big ask, especially coming from some of the younger gentlemen expressing interest in Freemasonry. They, they want desperately a mentor, a friend they can count on when life really happens, and then also spend happy time together when things are great. I agree with that because- Partnering with the Face It Foundation was something that became very important to me. We talk about we make obligations to care for our brothers, to be there, to whisper good counsel. But in order to do that, you have to have a relationship with them. And the Face It Foundation had presented to the Masonic Charities for some funding, and they described the process that they were hoping to do. And right after it was over, I actually excused myself from the board meeting to have a little discussion saying, "This is not just something small. This is something huge that Minnesota Masonry needs. Uh, I'd like you to present it coming up to the corporate board for the Grand Lodge of Minnesota, 'cause I think this is something that we need to start supporting, not just because it's a great idea, but it fulfills our promises and vows we made to take care of our brothers and to help them out," something that across the board seems to be missing from all the dialogues I've had with different Masons. And here they are giving us something to help us. This isn't going in and having therapy. No. It's about becoming better Masons and being able to have that authentic relationship on which we can grow. I feel comfortable talking about a number of things with most, but when it comes to the really deep conversations, I still limit it to just a few individuals that I've built that relationship with. Some guys understand that. They're, like, my go-to guy. Others may not realize it yet, but we've had such great discussions, 'cause I know not only are they gonna listen, they're actually gonna be compassionate with some of the advice they give, if they give any advice. 'Cause let's be honest, sometimes you just wanna be able to talk and not have someone fix. And, as my wife would say, um, "You're great at just taking the problem and trying to fix it," and sometimes I don't want that. And I've learned that sometimes that's actually what men don't want, is for them to have their problem fixed, just to vent- Hmm in a safe environment, though. We are fixers, aren't we, as men? I've been in the exact same position before. Sometimes it's just about the presence, just sitting and listening. I'm excited about the potential with the Face It Foundation pilot program, is this will give us an opportunity to get better at what we already do, like you said, it's not therapy. It, it's not fixing one another, but it's making that tiled lodge space- A place where we feel comfortable to talk about life, good, bad, and in between, and get just beyond the ceremonial customs and saying all of the words. Uh, we have members, new members that are waiting for, "Hey, when d- when am I gonna feel it? When is that actual connection, that authentic connection going to spark in my mind and in my heart?" We live in this world of seclusion, digital isolation, the friendship recession. It's in the headlines every other day, if not every day. The Masonic Lodge was meant to be a men's support system, and although vulnerability is hard, and I've heard it from a brother that he's not-- he doesn't have a problem being vulnerable. It's when someone is vulnerable with him, he doesn't know what to do. "I don't know what to say." And to your earlier point, just listen. Just be there. Put a hand on his shoulder. You don't have to fix it, but assure him that he's got support. And this is a pilot program. It's something we wanna see go much further, but a lot of brothers are like, "Well, we w- I want this right now in my lodge." Yeah. And, uh, like I tell them, "Do you want this program done right?" And that's why we're doing the pilot program and working it out to make sure we have all the kinks taken out, to make sure that it's being launched correctly, being supported correctly. This isn't something we can just say, "Okay, every lodge has it in their lodge," and go forth. It takes getting people prepared, properly trained just to run a meeting that's actually gonna be conducive to opening up and having those discussions, and that's not something that's gonna happen in the first one or two- Right meetings at all. Those first couple meetings are just seeing if you feel comfortable with the guys that are showing up. And once we got that worked out, we'll slowly launch it with other lodges. But it's about making sure that the brothers feel safe and comfortable to actually open up. I know that, uh, Bill had talked about with me that they have some Masons in some of their groups, and they've had discussions that they don't feel comfortable having in the lodges because they don't have that kind of a relationship with anyone at this time. Now, that gives us hope that, yes- Yeah we can, we can actually get guys to understand that we need to get back to real basics of Masonry, that we're there for each other, in, in word and deed. That's the most important thing. We can all say we're Masons, but are you acting like it? We are going through a time of conflict, so much so between individuals that ha- are really rooted in their own values and how what I believe is absolutely correct. And it gets back to Jim Tresner's Truth and Fact. It's a presentation I gave down at, uh, the Scottish Rite in Rochester, where we talk about the fact that having beliefs yourself are great, but when you try to put them on others, is it really truth or is it fact? it's one of those presentations I would love to take on the road one day. Fast. Jim Tresner was so great. So the FACET Foundation is one aspect in pursuing and enhancing the quality member experience. What, what else would you like to see near and long-term We've made an additional change coming up this year, and that's with the one day to masonry. Oh, let's talk about the one day. The one day, in my opinion, I've had issues with it because it does serve a purpose. I'll be the first to admit that, and the numbers for retention also indicate it serves a purpose. They're good. It's good. Yes. However- And when I tell people that, they're like, "Really?" I actually pulled the reports and had to go through. It took me about a month to really figure it out, and retention rates are basically just a little bit better on some years than the traditional method. Doesn't mean one's better than the other. They each serve a need. The problem is, in my opinion, and in a couple other individuals, is that we're not really building an authentic bond with these guys. We're bringing them in, putting them through the one day, and right after that Master Mason degree is over, we kick them to the curb to go back to their lodge. And that whole process just doesn't sit right with me. So I have decided that for this coming year, uh, the One Day is being rebranded as the Grand Master Degree Festival and Table Lodge. And we've been putting a lot of advertising forward at different, at the One Day last year, as well as when I'm speaking, is that the first degree, the Entered Apprentice degree, must be done in their lodge, district, or region. Prior to the event. Prior to the event. Okay. And the custodians are all on board, and y- as you'll see, there's a lot of Entered Apprentice schools of instruction, because again, this is the, in my opinion, the most important degree, that you're sending someone off on their Masonic journey, and it starts right with that Senior Steward lecture for the actual degree. Their first impression. The, well, and the first impression goes back further. How are you meeting the person and bringing him into lodge life? W- we've had a number of different ways of t- of talking about the three-step process, the five-step process. But it is not having a guy walk through the door and say, "Here, fill this petition out," and going to another brother saying, "I need you to sign here." It's about actually getting to know the guy, because is what he's looking for something your lodge can actually provide to him? I've had a guy that came into one of the lodges, uh, that I belong to, and what he wanted, that lodge was not the right lodge. And I said, "I want you to meet the guys. I want you to come back a couple times. I want you to go to this lodge also." He went to that lodge, met with those guys, came back, and still petitioned our lodge, and he is the current Master of one of them. That's huge that I've taken the time to actually give him different options- Yes because it's not just about your own lodge at times. It's about is the fit perfect? Turns out, the fit was perfect, and I was wrong in w- my initial beliefs were. But because I gave him that option, he could actually see. It gave him the opportunity to compare one to the other. It happens all the time, where we either get possessive because, hey, we met him first, and he should join our lodge. Every lodge is different, the culture, the vibe, the flavor, and it, it should be, correct me if I'm wrong, Grand Master, it should be about the prospect, the candidate, the gentleman that might fill out a petition. Where will he feel the most at home? And that's exactly what it is. We want the new guys that are joining lodges to actually want to stay. And they're only gonna stay when there's something going on, that there's a value in the lodge. Yeah. Steve Johnson, when he, I was progressing forward, uh, waiting for his time as Grand Master, would always talked about, "Well, we get guys in the front door of the barn, but we forget to close that back door, and they're constantly just walking right out." Right. Which always surprised me, 'cause I never thought of Steve as a farmer. Um, but he was very eclectic, and so I mean, even a race car driver at a time. I didn't even know that about him. He, yeah, he was quite the Renaissance man. He, he was. But the comment he made about closing that back door by making sure you have a value to offer to that brother, or brother-to-be, is so important. If you don't offer something to him, they're gonna find another area to have it, and that might not be within a Masonic lodge. And if we don't make sure we put the candidate first, we will never succeed. It's exciting news about the one day, and the, the rebrand of that, and it's putting a little more of the onus on the lodge to provide a quality Entered Apprentice degree before showing up that day. The Table Lodge is a really fun twist to that. Well, and that's important, because kicking someone out of the building to go back to their lodge without enjoying fellowship of that nature right away, that solidifies the whole experience. And I've had some guys come back and say, "Well, you know, Shriners aren't gonna like that." Problem is, I've talked to the different Shrines, and they understand and they think it's a good idea. So I'm not sure where people think that people aren't gonna be okay with this. We're gonna work with lodges. I've charged the custodians to get out there in our different lodges to make them better, and we're willing to help lodges put degrees on. We've got resources. They just need to ask. Dare I point out that we aren't making Masons so they can go join simply a concordant body. We're, we are initiating a Mason to be an active, vibrant member of his Blue Lodge, and then later encouraging them to join whichever concordant body that they would like. We have so many different opportunities within the Masonic family. We have individuals that say, "Well, it's all about the Blue Lodge," and it's really not. The reason why there's so many different parts of the Masonic family is because there are different things for different individuals. I used to hold Mike Nem up as the perfect example. Past Potentate, Past Master of Montgomery Lodge, and people would say, "Well, you know, I just don't have time, and how can anyone do this?" And I would say, "Well, do you know Mike?" He comes to lodge still. Why don't you?" And they would kinda stutter a little bit, 'cause they weren't prepared for me having perfect examples. Um- Jerry Johnson, another guy, supports so many different groups and is active in his lodge. It's so refreshing to see that where it's not about just one experience. For some individuals, the only experience they want is the Blue Lodge, and that's wonderful. For some, they're joining because they have a bond with a brother who is a Scottish Rite Mason, a York Rite Mason, a Shriner. And that's great because the fact that they have a bond means they're more likely to stick around. They're more likely to come back to lodge because there's a value at the lodge also. You've mentioned some names that are, for lack of a better term, pillars of the Masonic family within Minnesota. Who, who's in your Masonic hall of fame or the, the Mount Rushmore, so to speak? There's so many. It's, it's- It's, it's hard to choose, I know it, it really is because each of them has been a mentor to me. Who came to mind first? Tom McCarthy was the first one. I've had an opportunity on different occasions to talk with him, and he is so soft-spoken. He is not overpowering. And as I was progressing and, and thinking about who should I, I appoint that's gonna be good for the craft, not just who should be appointed, 'cause we have to think bigger than ourselves and bigger than just one person, I asked his advice. And it gets back to the whole people stepping up when I lost my Masonic father. Yeah. His comment was, "I'm not a good person to ask because my decision was made for me based on circumstances, and I don't think I can give you the right answer." How powerful is that? Wow. That someone's willing to say, "I can't give you an answer to your question," and directs me to go talk to some other guys. That's a person that I can really trust their opinion, and if I really need to have a deep question that I need really good guidance on, I know that's a person I can call on. Um, probably the first person that was really extremely instrumental, Bob Wickey. And some will be like, "Well, there, I know Bob. I don't see why." It's, it's because he was kind, he provided instruction for me, and when I asked his opinion, he didn't care what his opinion was, he gave it, versus others that, well, I th- it's almost as if they're giving an opinion that they think this is what I wanna hear. And what I wanna hear is an actual opinion, not just a regurgitation of what they think I, my opinion is. What's your biggest challenge in being a Mason when nobody is looking? I think my pin says it all. In the pin, I have that rough Ashlar with the perfect Ashlar coming outside of it. And the perfect side is very small because we have lots of little imperfections in our lives that we're constantly trying to work on. And I am not a perfect man by any means. I'm not a perfect Mason. I've got problems that require me to constantly evaluate how my actions and behaviors are, um, trying to support as much as I can, but also making sure that what I'm doing is morally correct. I think that the biggest impact for me is when Anne makes the comment, "Since you've joined the fraternity, you've become a better husband." And I never realized that. But when someone else is looking at it that means the absolute world to me, that I hold higher than anyone else, makes that comment, it sticks around knowing that, okay, I can be better. I need to constantly work on it, and trying to make that rough Ashlar more perfect. And some days I'm better than others, as everyone. We're all human. And I just continue to try to be better. What was your first job? Let's go way back for a minute. My first job within the fraternity was the education coordinator, under Grand, uh, Leo Ed Helpas. I-- When I first joined the lodge and went through my Master Mason degree, I started reading everything I could get my hands on, and I found education to be really interesting, uh, his- historical education specifically. I have something like thirty or forty different, uh, online books that I've downloaded. I've gotten through about five of them so far. Um, but that was a lot of fun for me, is traveling out and trying to interact with the different, uh, lodges to inspire them about education, especially doing this under Ed Helpas, who, in my opinion, Masonic educator, he was phenomenal, absolutely wonderful, so knowledgeable, and I felt so small standing next to him from a Masonic education standpoint. Uh, that, that's probably it. What was your first job as a kid? My first job as a kid, um, that's an interesting one 'cause, uh, I'll go way back to, uh, like, uh, under 10. Uh, you'd have l- you know, Kool-Aid stands, and I, I would run Kool-Aid stands, but probably the most impactful was I ended up taking, uh, a white sheets of paper and stapling them together and making little three-by-three inch books. And I went around our neighborhood, and I sold them for 25 cents apiece. And people would ask, "Well, what are we supposed to do with this?" I said, "It's a book for you to write your story." And I sold out. I made about five or six dollars back in the '70s, and that was big money for someone. Yes. 'Cause, you know, candy store, here I come. Mm-hmm. Um, the other kids that w- all of a sudden decided to do it, none of them made anything, and they couldn't figure out why. It's like, well, I s- Yeah, what's... What are you doing over there? Yeah I, I struck while the iron was hot, and then I had to find something else. What do you think that was rooted in as a kid? Here, tell your story with this. That's a pretty young age to be thinking that perspective. It was all about the candy. Is that it? Oh, it, that, that was it. Because, uh, Mom and Dad, yeah, you can do chores around here, and then you can go buy some if you want, but we're just not gonna give you money. Um, they instilled in me the th- the fact of, you know, if you want something, you find a way to try to get it. They would help always. They were very supportive and very caring. But I figured it out, that if I could figure out how to raise money, they really wouldn't say much about what I spent the money on. But when I would get money from them- Yeah then there was the impact of, "Well, I don't want you to spend the money on this." Yeah. And I, I learned at an early age, one was definitely better than the other. Strings attached if it came from Mom and Dad. Yep. Life in the '70s was... It's hard to describe. D- do you remember TV back then and the shows that we watched as being... Comparing that now to Netflix is, is incomparable. It, it, or it's... Inconceivable is the word. I think that's a good word because the shows I would watch, um, back in the '70s because of my age, it meant getting up on Saturday morning- Yes making sure all the chores were done, grabbing a bowl of the sugared cereal- Yes um, and you'd, you'd actually fill it up with lots of milk, and then sitting down and watching cartoons for the first three hours of the day while everyone else was still sleeping 'cause I would wake up about 6:00 in the morning. 'Cause then you could have that second bowl of cereal without Mom knowing, and I couldn't get in trouble then. Speaking of TV, whether it's back then or now, what commercial is so annoying to you that it made you vow to avoid the advertiser? I don't think there's anything that's really made me do that. I'm very brand loyal. When I find something that I enjoy, I stick with it. even though it might be a dollar more, it has to do with... Actually, there's a connection in my mind that I like this brand, that's what I want, and when they don't have it, I will go some distance to get it. Um- But is there a marketing campaign, an, a, a slogan, a jingle that just makes you, ugh? Probably the, uh, jingle from the '70s regarding Idaho potatoes, because one of my best friends would sing that every time he was around. And it was so annoying that I- It's still with you. Oh, it, it is, and I'm not gonna sing that. But- yeah, probably that one, and it had more to do with, uh, my friend singing it, 'cause it knew that it pestered me when he did it. Here's a random one out of the stack of cards. Aliens want you to take them to your leader. Who do you introduce them to? My wife. She leads the way? Uh- Good answer. That's the proper answer for any married man. Um, Anne and I, we've been together for 37 years I've known her, married for way over 30, and she's the most important thing to me. She's my partner, and I'm getting better at making joint decisions. Um, I believe in taking care of Anne as much as I can, to be there for her, to help with whatever she needs, and s- to, to lead the family. Um, now it's we work as partners. Uh, she brings the problems, I try to solve them, even when she just wants me to listen and I forget that. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes you know when not to speak though, right? I, I have learned that- I'm learning, yeah over the, over time. Uh, she, uh... Be nicer to the boys when they were growing up was always the challenge because I was the disciplinarian. Yeah. And so as soon as she brought a problem, I was going to address it immediately 'cause- Right now. that's how I was brought up. Yeah, me too. And so yeah, it's gotten much better. It's one of those things that my rough edge there, actually I polished it up a little bit. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it still gets, uh, a little bit rough from time to time, but I'm getting better. I think we all have a tendency to default back to how it was is when we were kids. The same thing. It was m- my dad was gonna solve it right now. We were not going to have a sit-down so we could share our perspective on the problem at hand. Yeah, I never had to worry about having a problem sitting down because, uh, uh, I was more worried of my mother. My mother, uh, broke a solid wood spoon, one of those old-fashioned ones- Oh, yeah over the kitchen counter and cracked the counter with it 'cause I got her so upset once. And, um, this, this story of, uh, her taking a Minneapolis phone book and ripping it in half, and we're talking the big thick one, not- Yeah, big time. Oh, yeah. She- Not the Red Wing phone book. Not the- The Minneapolis phone book the Minneapolis one. Um, she was a farmer's girl, and she, she had no problem. She scared me more than my father. So when she would say, "I'm telling your father," I actually welcomed that. Thank God. Yeah. What about you makes the least sense? There's so many things I'm thinking now. Um, some of the things over my life where I've, I've been doing stuff a certain way and now all of a sudden they change for no reason, and people will be like, "Well, why do you think this now?" And it's hard to explain to them that I've reevaluate something and trying to explain that process. Plus, when it comes to a lot of my moral judgments that I've changed over the years, it has to do with impacts that unless you were standing right next to me when the impact happened, you can't possibly understand why I've made those decisions and changed. And trying to explain them to individuals, I shouldn't have to explain my decisions like that. That's a personal choice, and it's a growing choice because we've grown as individuals and things can change over time. Speaking of impact, what wisdom or life perspective do you hope to leave to the next generation as far as a legacy? It's about the impact we have on others and how their impact is felt by additional others. It's not just the next step. It's the next two and three steps of how impacts happen. I'm very fortunate. The impact I've had with my boys, I'm hoping overall was positive and that they're gonna basically take virtues and values and pass them on to others. I don't know if I'll be around to see what that impact finally is, but I know that I've done the best I can, and that's the legacy I'm trying to leave behind, is the impact I have on others, but more that the impact they will have on yet other individuals.