Episode 128: “Because of the Masons” (ft. Dr. Zohar Sachs)

“I feel I owe it all to the Masons, and I'm not overstating it. If I didn't have the startup or pilot funds, I wouldn't have been able to do anything.”

Our Masonic Cancer Center’s very own, Dr. Zohar Sachs, joins us this week to discuss how she and her team are using science to make people's lives palpably better.

“What a precious gift science has given this person…when you support cancer research, that's what you're doing.”

Hear about exciting, powerful research projects that are funded by pilot grants from the Minnesota Freemasons and the positive impact being felt by those receiving exceptional care. 

Dr. Zohar Sachs is a faculty member at the University of Minnesota’s Department of Medicine and leading researcher at the Masonic Cancer Center. 

Transcript

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You received your undergraduate degree, a BS in chemical engineering from MIT. Followed that up by attending Tufts Medical School Medical Scientist Training Program in Boston, receiving an MD PhD. Conducted your fellowship in hematology, oncology, and transplantation at the University of Minnesota. In 2012, you joined the faculty as a physician scientist, member of the Masonic Cancer Center Genetic Mechanisms of Cancer program Welcome, Dr. Zohar Sachs. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. You lead a research lab focused on identifying the molecular mechanisms of self-renewal in acute leukemia, it's just, it's blood cancers. I take care of patients with blood cancers, and I specialize in a disease that we can just call AML or acute leukemia. That's another easy way to refer to those same words. a, it's kind of a complex set of, uh, interests that I have that all led me here. I was always very interested in science. I, I think in high school, I really thought of myself as, like, what I call the hard science, you know, person, like physics, math. I was really interested in that, and then as I progressed through, um, high school, I sort of you know, sort of thought, "Oh, I-- but I like, I like something that's more meaningful," more maybe like-- I shouldn't say more meaningful. More immediately relevant to people, let's put it that way, like biology. But I, I still went on, and I ma- majored in chemical engineering, uh, and, and that's when it became really very clear to me that I wanna do something that feels more immediately relevant to people. So I ended up going to medical school, but I, I still, I just really enjoyed science in a way that... You know, I don't know that I could've, like, defined it at that point, but I, I wanted to figure stuff out, and medicine is very, very much about learning how to do things and doing them. It's very much a trade, and I, I wanted to figure things out, and that's what science is. I wanted a specialty-- I wanted a couple of things in my specialty. I wanted to do something that was in- very complex. Like, I loved complex medicine. I don't like, I don't like practicing simple medicine. I like it when something is very, very difficult and complex and, frankly, I don't think anything is more com- complex than the care of an acute leukemia patient. So, so that- You, you picked the right area. Yeah. So the-- It spoke to me on that level, but I think on a, on an even deeper level than that, there is no field of s- of medicine that is more closely related to science than leukemia. I mean, when I was getting my PhD, the first targeted therapy in cancer became FDA-approved. This is Gleevec. This is the first time that scientists who studied molecules in a lab figured out a molecule that was broken, figured out a drug that would interact with that molecule, and then that drug took CML, which was a, a fatal illness at the time, and made it a chronic illness. People who were on that clinical trial in the '90s are still alive and still in remission. That's, that's what a massive breakthrough that was, and so I, I wanted to specialize in a field that, that's using science to make people's lives palpably better. A- and the third thing that I think it took me a while before I even recognized it, but wh- when you take care of cancer patients, you, you become really involved with them in, in a way you, you make personal and human connections in a way that I don't think you do in any other field of medicine. I mean, you are there for someone and their entire family for literally the worst thing that's ever happened to them in their life, and you help them through that, and that kind of connection is something you just, you just don't get in any other field of medicine. And, uh, and that's something that is very-- You know, I hate to say I enjoy it, but I-- it's very meaningful for me to be a part of that, to help people navigate that. Um, so those three things I think is what really sort of brought me to this field. I've heard such a recurring theme from so many people who have been treated at the Masonic Cancer Center that lead off by saying it's the relationship they had with the care team, and that leads the conversation ahead of all of the other technical things. There's that personal touch to it that maybe we take that for granted, but that's really become part of the, the culture at Masonic Cancer Center. Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I've nev- I've not practiced oncology anywhere else. You know, I've not had any other job as an oncologist. But I, I did, as a fellow, travel to other sites, and also as a resident I worked, you know, in oncology. Um, I do think there is something special about the culture at the Masonic Cancer Center that really allows us and fosters that. It gives us this sort of freedom and opportunities to, to interact with our patients in that way, uh, and that, that means the world to me. Um, that's, you know, the best part of my job. How do you stay current with the latest developments in cancer research? I would imagine that's a, a hot topic at the office at all times. Yeah, I mean, staying current is, is, uh, you know, just, uh, critical for my job, both as a researcher and as an oncologist. But, um, I have the luxury of specializing in a very, very small and narrow field, right? Um, blood cancers is a small field, and I specialize specifically within that in a certain subtype of leukemia. So that, that's sort of what I really, really focus on. Um, and that's the other thing I really love about working at the Masonic Cancer Center is that we have the myeloid leukemia specialists, the lymphoid leukemia specialists, and all these other specialists. And so if I ever need a little bit of help, you know-- And in fact, that's the, also the culture. If you have a patient that's complicated, you, y- you ask your colleagues. Even if you know exactly what you wanna do, you say, "This is what I'm, you know, facing. This is what I'm thinking. Does anybody else have any other thoughts or ideas?" And so each patient becomes a conversation. Um, and so e- sometimes people have ideas, "Oh, why don't you check this or maybe try that?" And, um, we, we see ourselves as taking care of patients communally. I mean, my patients are my patients, but all my colleagues help me take care of my patients, and I help my colleagues take care of those. And so that there's a sort of collective brain, um, that, that we share. How much is AI or other technology being integrated into research? Yeah, AI is, uh, it's, you know, both scary and incredibly exciting. Um, I would say, you know, I am very much aware of all the, uh, caveats with AI. Uh, but it is always helpful to sort of ask, "What-- Well, what do you think?" And then, you know, look at the references and see how good those references are. Um, it can be a starting point for something if I really don't know anything about. In fact, I can tell that it's not appropriate for me to-- or not helpful for me to use AI when, um, all the stuff it brings back is stuff I already know. You know, like, I already know the references. I've read those papers, and I'm like, "Okay, it can't help me." But sometimes it's, like, a good starting point. I would also say that AI is an incredibly powerful tool to help our research and, you know, we just published a paper, I think it was last year, maybe two. I forgot. Recently. It was fast. Yeah. Uh, yeah, recently where we used, uh, AI to discover something completely new from, you know, these large public data sets. Um, and so what we discovered was really exciting, I think, and important. We discovered a new subset of leukemia that needs extra attention. We-- All we did was look at published, published data sets, but we, we built a, um, an, an artificial intelligence approach to ask some very specific questions and, uh, that was incredibly powerful and exciting, and I thought, "Wow, this, this is, this is the wave of the future," is to, uh, understand our data in a much deeper way, the data that already exists. Can you tell us about a groundbreaking project that you led and perhaps the impact it's had on treatment? we just opened a clinical trial, um, in July, uh, that is based on research from my lab, and I would add that this is research that was very heavily supported by the Masons, um, in addition to, uh, the Shaver Foundation. They were-- They have helped a lot too, but the, the Masons really helped, um, with this project. So we had this idea. So there's a, a certain, you know-- We're, we're not gonna get away from this topic. There is a certain kind of acute leukemia that I specialize in, and it is, it is a h- it's like the worst of the worst. It is a disease that has no effective treatments, and the survival, you go from being a healthy, comfortable person to being diagnosed with this disease to-- and the survival from that diagnosis, from the time of that diagnosis, is less than a year. So it's, it's just-- it's the most devastating thing there is. And when I meet someone, I start their therapy, it, it usually takes a few days or a few weeks until I get that subtype, because the, the subtype requires some molecular tests. So you meet a person, you start them on treatment, you tell them acute leukemia is a curable illness. We could cure quite a lot of people with this disease, and we bring them into the hospital. They have to be in the hospital for a, a month to get their treatment. It's really hard, but, you know, they think they could be cured. And then a few days in or a couple weeks in, I get this molecular test, and I know that nothing's gonna work for this patient. And maybe it'll work for a little bit, but, but I know that within a few months, if the disease responded initially, it's gonna, it's gonna progress, and we're gonna try something else, and that's gonna be awful and miserable, and maybe it'll work a little bit, and it'll progress. And I s- I know that this is this person's destiny, that, you know, a month would be-- not a month, sorry, a year, a year would be optimistic. It's, it's just the most horrible thing there is. So a few years ago, I decided this, this is the disease we should tackle in my lab. And so we did a whole bunch of, um, you know, different kinds of analyses of these patient samples, and basically, we found something that we thought could work, we tested it in, in the lab, and we, we got a lot of really exciting results. And so, um, forgive me, but we, we took this to the-- all the f- you know, national funders, and we said, "Could you give us some money to test this more? This is really promising. This is really exciting." And, and, like, no one was interested in funding this project, uh, the treatment that we wanted to use is fully FDA-approved, and in fact, it's been tested in leukemia before, um, and it didn't show-- it, it didn't improve outcomes in acute leukemia. And so they're like, "We've already tried this. It, it doesn't work." And I said, "Well, we've not tried it in this very specific type of leukemia, which is the one where nothing works, you know? So the prior trials don't really relate to this. There are a lot of reasons why it was very clear that the prior trials had no relevance in this setting. Uh, and our data looks so good, but people are just like, "This is old. This is old." And, and the-- because the drug is FDA approved, it actually-- it's fairly old. The drug we wanted to add, um, it's, it's not a commercially viable option. So we went to the company, and the company said, "Well, try our newer drug." And I said, "Well, I can't use the newer drug on the leukemia backbone. It's too toxic. The older drug is what I need." And they were like, "Well, we're not investing in that obviously." Anyway, so with the help we had from the Masons and the help that we got from the Shaver Foundation, we opened a clinical trial entirely funded in this way. Zero government dollars, zero, um, dollars from industry. So, um, that's probably the one thing I am most excited about and most proud of in my career. Um, this trial is, as I said, for this very nasty kind of leukemia. This very specific kind of leukemia, a few years ago, a bunch of trials opened up to try to treat this, um, cancer, this subtype, and they all closed early because they were futile. None of them worked. Hmm. And so right now, this is one of the only trials enrolling for these types of patients. It's, it's definitely the only one in the upper Midwest. I think it might be one of the few in the country. And now the Mayo Clinic, um, Oregon, um, Oregon has a big cancer center, have contacted us and asked us if they can open our trial at their center, which is just amazingly gratifying and very exciting, just to have something to offer these patients- Yes you know? You started this, you said July of last year? Yeah, that's when we first opened the trial. Okay. Yeah. So you're closing in on a year. What, what do you anticipate, or what are you seeing so far? Can I ask that? Oh, you can ask that. It's just, it's way too early to tell. Okay. It's, you know, because when you start these trials, you start at kind of a low dose, and so you just have to kinda get through. Um, and we-- You know, in the beginning also, we had a little bit of trouble enrolling just because of the, We had all these restrictions on who could enter the trial because that's just a part of the way it is. So a lot of patients that we, um, screened for the trial didn't qualify for a variety of reasons that were, I think, not relevant to disease treatment, but that's just how these trials go. So it's, it's slow going. We've enrolled our first two patients, but it's too early to say. Uh, and that's also part of why I'm so excited that the Mayo is interested in opening it and some other sites are now interested in opening it, uh, so we can see. And you know- I'm kind of very optimistic, but I'm also-- I'm not naive enough to think that we're gonna, like, figure this out in the first try. Uh, so the other thing that's really exciting is that we're gonna collect patient samples and analyze them and be able to refine our approach. that's the thing that's, I think, the most exciting and impactful that I can come up with. It's really cool to hear Oregon and Mayo are on board with this. W- how else do you collaborate? I've always wondered how a breakthrough or something like this with another institution, how does that information sharing look? Yeah, it's-- I mean, it looks in all kinds of different ways, basically. Um, oftentimes you have people who are interested in similar things, but not exactly the same thing. Um, you know, we recently, you know, part-- helped or participated in a paper with, um, with Sloan Kettering where, they were interested in some, uh, res-resources that we generated. We generated a certain kind of leukemia, and they wanted to study it, so we shared that with them. But then they took our leukemia, and they did some, like, very advanced analyses on them, and then they gave us the data, and then we analyzed the data to ask the questions that we wanna ask. So that's, that's been a really great relationship. I'm, like, excited for that. there was a-- You know, just yesterday I read a paper out of Japan where-- Uh, let me just preface that. That's a-another, like, very important interest of mine is how to prevent this kind of leukemia from happening. So the P53 mutant AML, that's the, like, the technical term for it, this is a disease that is, um- Much more common in survivors of cancer. Oh. So a patient who's had chemotherapy or radiation is much more likely to get this kind of disease. and what we're learning now is that there's a precursor condition that we can frequently detect in the blood of these individuals years before they develop that kind of leukemia. Okay? That precur-cur- precursor condition isn't an illness. They're not sick. Everything looks good, but if you do some special tests, you can detect it. All right, so- You find that in l- just regular labs? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We can test for it clinically, but, you know, it's expensive. Insurance may not cover it. There's a whole other- Sure. But we are starting to recognize these patients. We're starting to detect them, and we know if you have this precursor condition, the likelihood of developing this basically invariable leuk- uh, invariably fatal leukemia subtype is pretty high, right? So half my lab, I would say, is devoted to that question. How do we prevent that from happening? Uh, anyway, so I was reading a paper about that precursor condition and I recognize that they, they have the data to answer a question I'm very interested in, but they didn't analyze it quite in that way. Uh, and so I emailed them yesterday and I said, you know, "What-- Can we, could we do something together? 'Cause this is a really-- I think this is a really important question. No one's answered it. We need to know the answer. You have the data. You just, you know, I just need, you know, these. You just didn't put them together in that way." Uh, so that's another great way that, you know, collaborations start off, um, as an example. Have you heard back? Not yet. Okay. I'm hoping. But I just sent it. You know, I think, I'm like, how many hours away is Japan? Yeah. And I sent it, like, last night, so I'm hoping. They'll be getting to it about- Yeah now maybe. But when you get that momentum going, or making progress on something, how hard is it to unplug for the day? Do you ever find yourself still in the lab and ignoring the clock and realizing, "Oh my God, what time is it?" Well, those are- "We're still here." Yeah, that's a very different question. Yes, many, many, many times I lose track of time 'cause I've, I, I'm locked in. But, I very commonly switch tasks, right? Uh, just as a physician and a scientist. I mean, it seems like those jobs are related to each other, but they're two, completely different jobs. They-- It just, it's like it happens in a different part of my brain and different part of the... You know, everything is different about it. Um, and so I'm very used to sort of switching here, here, here, here, here. so yeah, I go home and I'm-- When I'm home, I'm home. Yeah. Like, I'm not somebody who works from home. I love working in my office, but I only almost exclusively work in my office. So when I'm home, I, I don't, I don't usually work. You know, I- Not too preoccupied, Not usually. I'm-- I, I think I, that's something that I've been very, like, uh, deliberate about, is that, my research is so important to me and so exciting, and then my, my clinical work is so engaging. I mean, I see such intense drama all the time that I realized I, I had to, like, not bring it home, both for my family and for me. Mm-hmm. You know, I have... When I'm home, I have to be home because, um, it's really hard for your child to be upset about some stupid thing your kids, the, another kid said to them- where I'm like, "I just took care of somebody, you know, somebody's mom who's got luk-" You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's, it's not fair to anyone if I'm preoccupied with these, like, big and horrible things. Mm-hmm. Um, and my kids, you know, my kids deserve to be able to complain about stupid little things that happened- Sure at school, and so- 'Cause that's a big thing to the kids, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a big thing, and it is a, it is a very big thing to be taken seriously for- Yes whatever's on your mind, so. Mm-hmm. how would you describe the impact of the partnership that we have with you, as far as the Minnesota Freemasons and Minnesota Masonic Charities? Yeah. So, I can't really overstate it enough, but the, as a, you know, I'm still, you know, even though I'm old, I'm pretty junior as a, as a researcher. You are not old. As a researcher, I'm, I'm quite junior. So you, just start doing any project at all, you need some money. You need money to hire people, to buy reagents, to do anything, and that money isn't gonna come from anywhere else. So the, the startup funds that I got to just establish my lab came from the Masons, repeatedly I've gotten f- um, pilot funds to, to s- do new projects, like the project I just described to you, where we're, um, trying to understand how to prevent the progression of these precursor conditions. The, the way to study that is with a genetically engineered mouse, we had a collaboration with David Largaespada and- He, he did mention- Yeah. Yeah by the way, quick interruption- Yeah the ability to reproduce mice on a massive scale Oh my God. Yeah. It's- Like- That, yeah, it's a little- Wow. I know. I try not... That, that creeps me out a little bit. But anyway, um, that project is- A super exciting project, incredibly powerful, but it was, it was funded by a pilot grant from the Masons, right? This is, this is the kind of work that it just wouldn't happen. And if I don't have these pilot projects and pilot data to just to show that my idea is good, to show that I can produce something, nobody else would give me any money. You know? So the, you know, I've since then gotten some grants from the American Cancer Society, American Society for Hematology, and I wouldn't have gotten any of that if it weren't for the support from the Masons. So I, I actually feel I, I owe it all. I really do, and I'm not overstating it. Like, if I didn't have the startup funds, if I didn't have the pilot funds, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. I just would be a person with some ideas and frustration, you know? that question gets asked frequently, "What do you guys do as Masons?" And any typical Masonic lodge wants to give back to the greater good, but we really have our 70-plus year history of the support with the Masonic Cancer Center opening in 1955, and then the Masonic Children's Hospital, and the Institute for Developing Brain. We're working on a healthy aging institute. It's so special to hear directly from you and the experts the impact that giving and support, that those l- decades and generations are having on literally impacting the world. Yeah, it, it is mind-boggling, and it is, it is such a, um, like, I would say central part of my daily life, and I'm very much aware of it, that it is individuals who, who want the world to be a better place, who care about us producing good treatments for people, good and effective treatments for people that, that don't have any other options. Uh, and so that, to me, that's incredibly powerful. I think the other part that maybe gets lost is that all, all of this is happening in an academic center. And so, you know, I take a dollar, and I use that dollar to hire a graduate student to do my projects. The graduate student graduates from my lab, gets a PhD, and then now moves somewhere else and takes that training and, and becomes a cancer researcher somewhere else. So the impact is actually so much bigger than just what I'm a- able to accomplish, right? Never mind these, like, collaborations, right? If, like, the Mayo and Oregon and all these other places open our trial, that would be fantastic. But there are all these people, these, these talented people whose, whose ability to do science is actually central, is, is developed by this, um, these gifts. We likely take for granted that mentor-mentee relationship, that you have a grad student that becomes a PhD, either stays around or goes someplace else. All of that institutional knowledge being imparted to the next gen, how, how gratifying is that? Oh, that's terrific. It is-- It's very... You know, that part is very exciting, but the-- I would say the, the, the part that's even maybe more meaningful and exciting to me is, is the part-- is how much they give me, how much... You know, it's like a whole other wonderful brain that's completely open to helping me serve what I think we should be doing, right? To think about P53 mutant AML and what the methods are, what are ways to do it. And, and that part, the-- when they come to me and they say, "Well, you know, why don't we try this?" Or I th- or, or they'll just ask me a naive question, and I'll be like, "Oh, well," and then I realize, oh, I, I actually, not only do I not know the answer to that, that's, like, a really important question that we should... And I, I think even more than the pride I feel for them for what they've, you know, what they've done, it's, it's like a, a joy to have that added on. Like, I'm not, I'm not functionally-- functioning solo. I have these wonderful brains, like, contributing. And even for the new grad student can make a suggestion. Is, is it a place where no idea is a bad one? You consider things from every angle, even if it seems obvious? yeah. I mean, it's-- Because if a question is super easy for me to answer, if I already-- you know, if it's, like, a trivial question, then, then fine. That's a point of learning. But a, a lot of times, you know, the things that you take for granted, that you assume, you, you forget how much of it isn't, um, isn't well-established. You know, I, I read recently this thing that said the most-- the bigger-- the biggest barrier to learning isn't ignorance, it's knowledge. And the example was, you know, back when people thought the Earth was flat, it was hard for them to believe that it was round. If you know that the Earth is flat, you know that it's flat. And I, and I think about that a lot 'cause I-- And I don't know who gave-- who said that quote. I apologize. I think that we all think the world is flat in some ways. I mean, there are some things that we assume that we know when we don't actually know them. Uh, and so yeah, the, the more inexperienced a, a trainee is, the better they can ask these questions. You know, why, why do you see the horizon curve like that, you know? Can you tell us about a challenging research project that you faced recently and how you overcame it? that is... I mean, there are so many, it's hard to focus. I mean, I think right now the biggest challenge that we're having is, is, you know, allocating our resources. the situation in science right now is real, that we just, we cannot do the things that we feel we need to do. and so the question of how, how do we best move forward? What's the most important question that I can answer? What is, what is the biggest bank for, you know, like if, if I could do big things, I would do these big things, but I c- I just can't. I cannot do the big things, so what's a, what's a way to, um, overcome that? and I guess that's not very s- a very specific way to- Is, is that based on fu- on funds, on money? Yes. Okay. I mean, funding. You know, we, we sort of... Everything we do is in the, in the service of trying to get fu- you know, government money because that's, that's what really allow... You know, you can't hire a person if you don't know what your, what your budget is for next year. Like, you can't hire- I suppose a person with a we- right? I can't- Yeah. You know, right, right now this is something I'm facing. It's something I face all the time, but how can I hire someone if I can't commit to them, like at least two years? And for a graduate student, it should be like four years, and so it's, it's really the government funds these like large grants that are usually five years long, and so I, you know, you can make plans, but right now I can't make plans, right? thinking about short-term projects or projects for, trainees that are not graduate students, like, um, residents or master's students. So these are smaller, shorter projects, and how can we make the most of those, um, kinda smaller projects? and that affirms the importance of our relationship- Absolutely with Masonic Charities. And we have, yes, a long timeline, a great history, but it's not, it doesn't stop there. I spoke to a Mason recently who said, "That's a really amazing timeline. We've given this much money cancer research never stops until we get there, and this has really motivated so many of our members to become, and even non-members, to become part of our Pillar Society, to give what you can. Uh, Dr. Douglas Yee was in here a couple years ago, and I, I say this line all the time 'cause it's stuck in my head, "We don't know whose $5, whose t- $100 is going to be the amount that pushes things into the next realm of research breakthroughs and ideally a cure." Absolutely. I mean, I think that just engagement at any level is incredibly helpful and incredibly useful, and who knows which experiment's gonna allow what, you know? I will tell you, I have people who-- patients in my clinic who, who wouldn't be alive today if they were diagnosed just five years earlier. Really? I have-- I cannot tell you, it happens over and over again. I j- it just happened. A, a woman comes to me. She's sh- her treatment stopped working. We are out of options, and then a paper comes out and I say, "13, 13 patients were treated in this way on this new drug. I don't think it's gonna work, but why not try? We're out of options. Do you wanna try it?" "Yes, I'll try it." You know, two years later, she's still in remission, and she says to me, You told me, you told me two and a half years ago I had six months, you know- Yeah and now, and now how much do I have?" And I said, "I don't know how long you have because you're in remission." You know? This is, this is what science gives us, one patient at a time, and I have a lot of these patients who, to me, you know, I try not to-- I feel like it's a scary thing to say to a patient, like, "I'm excited that you're alive," so I don't Sure. But there are many patients who I f- I realize that. What a precious gift science has given this person, when you support cancer research, that's what you're doing. You're giving these individuals these precious, precious gifts. They go-- They see a grandchild being born. They see a grandchild getting married. Like, this is what it, what it takes are these, you know, individuals supporting science and, and right now that's all we have essentially, And on the other end of the demographic, we have our friend Emma Demery, who's in her 30s, who has her whole life ahead of her after a quite the arduous decade or more. And I s- I see patients like that too who just, I tell them, "We're done. You're in remission. Go and enjoy your life. This isn't, this isn't gonna come back to you." Yeah. I have patients like that where, I remember when their treatment plan was presented at our research conference. You know? I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking, "Oh my God, that's gonna work?" And then these They're just, like, out, and they Out in the community, living their lives, and they send me pictures when they have kids and stuff, you know? It's just- Hmm. Your work is giving the gift of life, literally. Yeah. And anyone, anyone who supports this work, that's what they're doing. So outside of your profession, what are your interests? What are you passionate about in life? Well, um, I have two, two important interests that are maybe in conflict with each other. I, I love to eat food. Eat and cook food are my, like, my favorite, most, um, most important thing in my mind, um, in my head. And, and I love to dance. That's my other- Oh very strong passion. I say they're in conflict 'cause if I'm gonna go dancing, I c- you know, it doesn't really work if I've eaten a lot beforehand 'cause I d- you know, you get sick. But- But the more you dance, the more you can eat, right? Yeah, I have to eat after dancing. Sure, yes. What type of dance? Um, I, I like many kinds of dance, like freestyle, hip hop, '90s, but I, I love Latin dancing, like salsa dancing, bachata. I just That speaks to me on some deep level. Does your husband dance with you? My husband will do freestyle dancing. Yeah. He's, he's a great dancer. He's a really, really good dancer, but he doesn't do, like, um, like Latin dance- Okay like l- you know, uh, partner dancing. Any specific dish you cook the most? I Dish-wise, I, I just love different e- like, I like different things. So I like exploring new dishes, and so I'll come up with something that's perfection and beautiful and just so exciting, and then I, I, like, don't wanna make it anymore 'cause I've already made it. So people will say, like, "Oh yeah, I came over and you made this thing," and I'll be like, "What? I forgot that I ever made that." And then I- Didn't write it down. Yeah. Well, or I might have written it down, but, like, I forgot it in my repertoire. Okay. Um, I like, I o- I like cooking a lot. Like, I love cooking, but I love baking. Like, cakes, making cakes, cookies, as, as you know. You're a, you're an Aren't you an award-winning cookie- Yes. The I take cookies very seriously. I take- Tell us more yeah. So I, I, um You know what? I have to say it. It starts with me growing up Jewish in a household where nobody could cook. Nobody, nobody in my household could cook. My mother didn't cook. She hated- No? No. Not even on Shabbat? No, no. Really? My parents were not religious, you know? So we were, like, religious enough to, like, not, not, you know, um, celebrate Christmas, and certainly not have Christmas cookies. But we my parents were not, they, they, they were not religious, so we didn't have... We had some cultural experiences, like they would buy donuts for Hanukkah and that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But... And my mom loved to eat, too, so we would just go out to eat- Okay a lot. Um, and if you wanted to eat inside the house, and my mother worked a lot, so she wasn't home, my dad wasn't home, we kind of were, you know, watching TV most- most of the summer, that kind of thing. And I would be home, and I would wanna eat something, and I'd get an idea, and I'd cook it, even as a little kid. You know, like as, in third grade I would, like, figure out how to make stuff. So that's where it started, and there was something about the Christmas cookie tray that just got me very excited. And so that was something that I, like, worked on my whole... Even as, in high school, I was very excited about making all these different cookies. That was... And so that's, that's where that started, and it's become, uh, like a very serious enterprise for me. And so I'll make like eight or 10 different kinds of cookies and, you know, and then I moved here, and my friends here said, "You should enter this Star Tribune cookie competition." And I wanted to. It sounded exciting, but I was like, "Oh, I don't have anything. I don't have anything. I don't have anything exciting enough." Um, anyway, and then, uh, I guess it was two years ago now, two years ago I had an idea for a cookie. And it was really two years ago because I spent, like, the subsequent, you know, four or five months really tinkering with that recipe, until I got it perfect, and I thought, "This is, this is a special cookie. I love this cookie." And so I, I entered that into the Star Tribune competition, and it was one of the finalists- Wow that year. I think that was 2024, and that was very exciting 'cause I've developed cookies over the years, and I love all of them. What do you mean you... Okay. So you've... Now, you coming from, from Israel, correct? Yeah. And then Boston, and then, so you're in the land of white food and where salt, pepper, and ketchup- was the spice rack in my home in North Dakota growing up. what does inventing a cookie entail? Is there complex ingredients? Is the appearance something? Is this something that should be on the Food Network? Well, I, so I think for me, it was, um, the process of thinking, like, "These flavors would go well in a cookie, but I don't know of any cookie that puts them together." And it, it, actually, the cookie was born from a pie. I saw- Oh a tart recipe, I think it was on The New York Times, where they called it a, um, a s'mores pie. So they had like a- Oh graham cracker crust, a chocolate ganache filling, and a marshmallow topping. Yes. And I ate this pie, and I'm like, "This is delicious in some way, but completely wrong." Like, I don't wanna- bite into, like, four, you know, like an inch of ganache. You know what I mean? Like, the chocolate should be different. The ratio should be different. The crust was- The, the tremendously wonderful part of that pie, c- the graham cracker, 'cause they had you make your own graham cracker crust. It wasn't, like, ground... Anyway, so that, that's what kinda got me thinking. So then I'm like, "Okay, we'll keep this crust, but we want... We'll make it in a cookie," and I thought a cookie would be, like, the right, you know- The consistency? uh, ratio. Yes. Consistency, ratio, and then this, this is the kind of chocolate we need. I think we needed a co- a chocolate cookie that was a certain, you know, like, density, and, and then you needed, like, the homemade marshmallow part, and then you toast it. And anyway, so it was really just thinking about, like, textures and flavors and, and component, you know, 'cause that's where it comes... Like, to me, a lot of times I have an idea for a flavor combination, and I think, "Is this better as a cookie or a cake or a small cake?" I do. I think these things. The conclusion is that we need more scientific minds- like yours in the kitchen. Can you, can you get a subset of mentors and mentees that are thinking like this for the benefit of all of our eating habits? Yeah. I do. I mean, I do think people, um, uh, people like... I mean, I think people like to eat what I cook, but they also, you know, maybe complain that I'm a little bit too, uh, particular. Maybe. Do you bring cookie, do you bring things to the, to the office? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have they become... Are they just taken for granted now? It sounds amazing. I don't think they're taken for granted. No, I guess not. I bring, you know, I bring things into the nurses, and they're all like... They, yeah, they treat me like some, you know, movie star- Oh, yeah showing up with these cookies- Yes or whatever, and like, "Oh, you made stuff." And I'm like, "It's, like, not that big of a d- you know? But then- My mother's a retired nurse and still talks about when the detail man would come to the, the clinic with treats. Oh, really? And that was the highlight of the nurses' station. It is, it is super fun. It is... I, I mean, I have to say on this topic, I mean, we have the best nurses in the world here. I mean, they're just... We're, we're just... It's a wonderful working relationship. I love our nurses, and so the fact that they appreciate me bringing them stuff is a particularly... It, it makes me happy. It makes me happy to... And it also, when you bake stu- You know, baking is really, for me, it's to provi- I, I would never bake for myself. I only wanna provide it to other people, so it's, like, an important part of it is that somebody's excited to eat it, so. Yeah. What's the best part of your morning routine? If I answer that honestly, I think it'll be very embarrassing for me, but I, I love to choose my clothes. I love putting together an outfit. That's that's... I, I enjoy that. On the same card, it asks what's the worst part of your morning routine. This is also equally embarrassing, but, like, I just h- I hate showering. I find it so boring. It's... I find myself sometimes thinking, like, you know- procrastinating so I don't have to get in the shower. I just, it's boring in there. Why am I here? Yeah. It's just so tedious. I- But it's a place to think, though. You can... It's a s- it's a cliché, but for some, that's... a lot of good things come out of the- Yeah, I s- No? For me, it's not, it's not a pla- I know, like s- but for me, it's not a place of, like, zoning out and enjoying it. It's just like, "Let's get through this." Gotcha. Just move on to the next thing. What do you hope your kids do not inherit from you? um, I hope... You know, like I said, I'm very neurotic or, like, um, particular about food, and I don't think that that's a good way to be. So they're certainly not particular about food, I would say. But that, like, tendency to be kind of... I think I'm a very flexible person in general. You know, like- Mm-hmm I, I can go with the flow, and, uh, I'm not uptight. But when it comes to cooking and eating, I'm very uptight, and I think being uptight in that way- Mm-hmm or at, at all is not, it's not good. Coincidentally, in the stack of cards- Yeah what ingredients always ruin a dish? Oh. Okay, this is also maybe not popular, and I don't wanna make anyone angry. But I, I, as much as I love sweets, I hate sweet things in my savory food. Oh. Like, if they put honey on, honey on anything that's not s- that's not like a dessert, like, ruins it for me. So, like, honey on a pizza, honey on chicken wings. Oh, yeah. it's just a f- I don't, it dr- See, this is... I, like, I'm getting angry just thinking about it. What's a life lesson you learned the hard way? oh, there's so many. So many. What's a cautionary tale you would tell the- A cautionary tale the young grad stud- or it doesn't have to be work-related, but I think one of the biggest things I still struggle with and, and reinvent in my head or rediscover in my head all the time is that perfectionism is actually the opposite of good. It's the opposite of good, and that's-- that is a mistake I keep making, and you, you have to understand the difference. It's not like h- how, you know... What's the word? Um, you know, it's not like being complete-- It's not-- Not being a perfectionist is not the same as not having any standards, you know? Yeah. But recognizing what's good and recognizing what's really, really good enough is very, very different than being a perfectionist, and being a perfectionist can ruin your ability to do anything good. that's been a hard lesson to learn, and it's a, it's a really hard barometer of, like, where is good, where less than perfect is good, because perfect is, is unattainable. Dr. Zohar Sachs, I can't imagine what it feels like to be in a career where you are impacting the lives of people across the world. you know, it feels incredibly lucky. It just feels like I can't, I can't believe that I've managed to put myself, to position myself here, because this is where I really always wanted to be. And so it feels incredibly privileged. It is, it is incredibly privileged, right? it really, really is privilege that I was able to, like, get this education, to choose what I study based on what I love to do, what I love to, you know, think about, the way I wanna do it. Uh, so it, it just feels like an in-incredible privilege that I get to do this job. Well, it's a privilege to have you on the team at our Masonic Cancer Center. Well, that is an incredible, like, that is an obviously an incredible privilege to be on this particular team. It's a collaborative, top-rate research institution where you can do really, really, really good work, and you can't do such good work if you are competing with your colleagues. It only works if you can collaborate with them. and so that's one of the things that I, realize I'm actually a better scientist here than I ever could have been in Boston because of that, because of my terrific colleagues here, because of the terrific resources. And, and I have to say, everyone else, like I already mentioned, the nurses are so terrific here. The staff is so terrific, and the patients, the patients are-- The culture is different, and taking care of patients here in Minnesota is so mu- It's just a, such a much better pleasure. And so it taught me that, you know, you think you're in this one position where it's perfect and that's where you belong, right? And I was, like, plunked here into the middle of, like, a completely, a culturally very different place. The land of hotdish and casserole. Yes. And yet I learned how wonderful-- Like, this is a good place for me to be a scientist, a researcher, that was-- that really changed how I think about things, I would say. That was a really... You know, from someone who-- Like, I lived in, in St. Louis. I-- and I lived in Israel, right? I grew up in Israel. I s- Then St. Louis, then Boston, then here. to have that lesson be learned in my 30s, that was pretty surprising. As we wrap up, what else exciting news on the horizon at the Masonic Cancer Center? I think the Masonic Cancer Center now, is poised to use, like you said, you were talking about AI and you were talking about-- We didn't quite m- get into the whole big data, but we're getting really, really good at generating and interpreting and using big data. We have some amazing resources and amazing, um, like banks of tissue. and also we have this amazing genomic center that has leading the world-class of, of capabilities. And so we're generating these just, uh, amazing, um, databases of information on our patient samples that I think are going to allow us to, kind of accelerate the rate at which we're making discoveries, the way we're making observations, um, and learning about what, what's, what-- how, how do we target cancer better. So I think we have that coming.