Welcome to Companies That Care. I'm your host, Marie Gettel-Gilmartin, and this podcast is brought to you by Fertile Ground Communications.
Do you struggle to put words to the screen? Is writing the very last thing you want to do in your day? My mission is to make communications painless for my clients. I can turn a piece of lackluster, jargon-filled or technical prose into clear dynamic narrative. I help my clients discover how to tell their stories or solve their communications challenges. Look us up on fertilegroundcommunications.com. I’d love to give you a free 30-minute consult.
I alternate this Companies that Care podcast with my other podcast, Finding Fertile Ground, which is about personal stories of grit and resilience. On both of my podcasts, I strive to highlight voices from historically excluded populations…people who don’t always get a platform. You can find information about both podcasts on my website and social media.
This week I have something a little different. I’ve worked with engineers and scientists most of my career, and I’m aware of the need to diversify these fields. Today I’m interviewing Veronica Arreola, a professional feminist, mom, and writer who has been working to diversify the science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) field for over 20 years. She has a particular passion for working with Latinx/Latina youth.
Veronica is director of Hispanic Serving Institution Initiatives for the University of Illinois-Chicago and most recently was program director for their Hispanic Serving Institution STEM grant, Latin@s Gaining Access to Networks for Advancement in Science. She ensures a supportive campus environment for Latinx students studying science. She also writes and speaks regularly about empowering women, including women of color.
We talked about how to encourage young women and girls to pursue STEM fields, especially Latina/Latinx students. She shared her thoughts on how companies can do a better job with diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how to create companies that care, especially for people of color.
Let’s meet Veronica and hear her thoughts about diversifying the STEM field.
Marie
Hello Veronica, thank you so much for joining Companies That Care today.
Veronica
Hello, thank you for having me.
Marie
Yeah, it's great to meet you after we've been connected on social media for a while, so it's great to have a conversation with you.
Marie
Let's start at the very beginning.
Marie
Can you tell our listeners how you got here in your life?
Marie
What led you down this career path?
Veronica
Oh well, I've been thinking about that a Lot lately because I'm in the process of changing jobs. I work in higher education at the University of Illinois at Chicago and have been here for many years.
Veronica
How I got here?
Veronica
I don't know how to explain.
Veronica
How I got here.
Veronica
I think I just the universe pulled me in this direction.
Veronica
I work in student affairs, academic affairs.
Veronica
I work mostly with science and engineering students, and right now the last five years I've worked with.
Veronica
Latin X identified students in science.
Veronica
I say the universe.
Veronica
Pulled me in this direction because.
Veronica
When I was a kid in elementary school, I remember around 4th grade.
Veronica
My teacher said something about the preschools looking for students who want to help out in their extra time.
Veronica
Basically skip lunch once a week or skip recess once a week and coming down.
Veronica
And helped the preschoolers learn some basic words and I vividly remember skipping.
Veronica
Recessed once a week to go and help, and asking preschoolers to you know put the dinosaur on top of the bowl.
Veronica
Under the bowl on the right, those like really simple things that just helped the teacher, I think, be able to manage the classroom and give some kids a little extra time.
Veronica
A little extra attention on mastering these concepts and since then I have been a tutor.
Veronica
In high school I volunteered and helped organize our math Tutor Center and then when I got to college I also volunteered as a math tutor and just kind of fell into what was drawn into the space.
Veronica
No, my career.
Veronica
Has been.
Veronica
Here for a couple of.
Veronica
Decades in terms of working with students closely to help them stay on track.
Marie
I love those origin stories, like asking people like what I do website copy for them like what was it that made you become an engineer?
Marie
I mean the engineer stories.
Marie
Especially really interesting, like I crossed a bridge and I decided I wanted to build a bridge.
Marie
Or whatever you know.
Marie
So yeah, that's really interesting, and I think that I share some of that in common with you because I was drawn to helping younger children when I was young as well and thought I wanted to be a teacher.
Marie
I ended up taking a different path.
Veronica
Yeah, absolutely.
Veronica
I thought I might want to be a teacher as well.
Veronica
My high school algebra teacher still wishes I had become a teacher, but.
Marie
I bet yes.
Veronica
My bad.
Marie
The other thing that I relate to is that throughout my career I have not necessarily set goals.
Marie
I've just the way I describe it is that I have seen.
Marie
The brass ring ahead of me and I've taken it.
Veronica
I like that I like that.
Marie
Yeah, because like throughout my time in corporate America, I had some really great opportunities and positions, but I didn't necessarily set my goals that way.
Marie
It was more like something appeared before me and that I was encouraged by others to advance and take the opportunities.
Marie
And I think that's just fine.
Marie
You don't necessarily have to know what you want to do with your life.
Veronica
I I think I just kind of built my future.
Veronica
Yes, along I.
Veronica
Didn't I just knew this is the last couple of decades?
Veronica
Just knew this is where the space I wanted to be in working at a university working with students.
Veronica
I was a first generation college student.
Veronica
Most of the students I work with are also first generation college students in helping guide them helping them.
Veronica
Figure out how to grab their brass.
Marie
Great, I love it.
Marie
That's such a gift that you're giving to them.
Marie
The other thing is I I'm guessing that you're in your 40s.
Marie
Is that correct, OK?
Veronica
I am.
Marie
OK, yeah, so I'm in my 50s and I was just curious when you were the first member of your family to earn a college degree.
Marie
It seems like now colleges do a really good job of helping first generation students.
Marie
Did you have that support at the college when you went off to college?
Veronica
There was a support program.
Veronica
There was some support at the university and I did my undergraduate where I asked also work.
Veronica
I've been here a very long time, but there's definitely more and the work I'm doing now is more specialized, something that I really would have been drawn to as undergraduate as opposed to a more general support when I was an undergraduate was buried focus.
Veronica
I was definitely that student who would like blinders on like this is where I'm going.
Veronica
Align with that, I'm ignoring it at my peril, and there were definitely points where I know I ignored things at my peril.
Veronica
But yeah, I.
Veronica
Think that today the last decade or so they we've definitely been at the higher education level, recognizing the additional supports that the first generation college students need to have.
Veronica
In order to close the representation achievement gap.
Marie
What a great opportunity to be able to design a program that you would have loved to.
Veronica
Have had Oh my gosh, yes, I really do feel like my whole career is just built on like what would I have wanted as a college.
Veronica
Student design that.
Marie
I love that idea that's so cool.
Marie
And so how did that feel like during college without any close role models?
Marie
Did you have adult role models in your life that you could follow if they weren't in your family?
Veronica
I know I had a few cousins who had gone to college and become lawyers and other professionals.
Veronica
My mom went back to college when I was in middle school.
Veronica
And earned her nursing degree.
Veronica
So I saw her go through the whole Community College route, so I had this general sense of what lay ahead of me, but I didn't have.
Veronica
The whole concept of four year university experience.
Marie
Yeah, yeah.
Veronica
When I was an undergraduate, my school was very much a commuter campus, so I didn't live in the dorms, had a very untraditional college experience while I did get in and out in four years.
Veronica
So no, I didn't have.
Veronica
A lot of role models I just tried to like pick things from different stories, which is why the work I do now.
Veronica
Is just so.
Veronica
Valuable to me personally is particularly helping incoming new students mind peers on campus.
Veronica
Who they can?
Veronica
And role model and ask.
Marie
Questions, so for our listeners who do not read the show notes, can you just explain what your current role is?
Veronica
Sure, my current role is a program director of Latinos and Science Office.
Veronica
We call it less Ghana, and we have different services, including professional coaches transition.
Veronica
Coaches who work with students during their first year on campus, and we research fellowship or advanced students but.
Veronica
The one piece that's really near and dear to my heart is our mentoring Kangana program, which is our peer mentor program where again we match up new students with.
Veronica
Students who've been.
Veronica
On campus for a couple of years and are successful and can answer those questions that only students can answer it for each other.
Marie
Wonderful, so I'm guessing also when you were in college, were there many programs serving Latinas?
Veronica
No, not that I was aware of.
Veronica
There's one legacy office on campus.
Veronica
Who has done an amazing job at recruiting at retaining our Latin X students for decades now?
Veronica
But there were student organizations but nothing is at last count is asthmatic students were interested in science who are majoring in science.
Veronica
It's a very focused program.
Marie
Think that now there's more attention.
Marie
Focused on particular cultural groups too, and more understanding that they need to be around other people like them and they they do.
Marie
That way you're younger than me.
Marie
I'm guessing that back then they didn't really recognize that as much.
Veronica
It's a shifting in a frame, a shifting of how you view things. Though 20-30 years ago we thought if we could just get enough people of whatever profile more women, instead more Latinos, instant or black.
Veronica
Students and stem.
Veronica
If we just got enough in the beginning stages, we would be OK.
Veronica
And then we've just come to realize that there are just systemic.
Veronica
Within academia, that is why certain people don't succeed.
Veronica
While we don't get the outputs that we would expect because it's not about intellect a lot about its preparation and preparation comes down to like how good your high school was, not how good of a student you are.
Veronica
You are, yeah, those are big differences to have to disentangle.
Veronica
Once you get to the university level, so being able to address these things in different places is really what we have made strides in.
Veronica
So I used to also direct our women in science and engineering.
Veronica
Program, though taking traditional viewpoints of science and engineering, and addressing it from a perspective of women or Latinas, those are two things making it real and concrete really helps.
Veronica
We try to talk about science.
Veronica
We complicate science.
Veronica
By talking about how much we need science for the Latino community in terms of healthcare.
Veronica
But we also talk about how we have environmental racism in this country.
Veronica
Why are so many factories located in Latino communities?
Veronica
There's a high rate of asthma in Latino.
Veronica
Communities is that because we're prone to it or because we live near power plants?
Veronica
Are we have industrial trucks run into our neighborhoods?
Veronica
All day long.
Veronica
That's where we come in and try to have those conversations.
Veronica
Make it real.
Marie
Yeah, it's so important to have that representation of the STEM community. Definitely the other thing I think about also is the way that DI has evolved in the business world.
Marie
That 20 or 30 years ago again, people thought we just need to hire more people of color, for example, but not recognizing that you can't just hire them.
Marie
You have to create a climate of support.
You know?
Veronica
Absolutely not.
Marie
Where they can thrive, and I imagine it's the same thing at the university level that you can't just bring people in.
Marie
I, I think back to when I was in college and I had a few black friends.
Marie
And they often would not stick out through all four years out of like three of the blackbirds I had.
Marie
I think two of them dropped out.
Marie
It was a predominantly white campus, so that's probably had something to do with it.
Veronica
Yeah, yeah.
Veronica
I, I think that you know 20.
Veronica
30 years ago we thought that.
Veronica
You got to campus and you could put your identity aside and just focus on your subject subjects right?
Veronica
And your major and what we do?
Veronica
At least gonna.
Veronica
Say you know you're bringing all our identities to the lab table.
Veronica
Does this make our science stronger better?
Marie
So I have a quick question about the term Latin X, because I've heard that a lot of Latin X people don't like that term I just I'm curious about what your thoughts are about that.
Veronica
Yeah, so I learned that.
Veronica
My next from queer people.
Marie
Huh, yeah, they don't have a with the articles, right?
Veronica
Exactly, yes, so it was proposed as an inclusive way of talking about the community or population or group of people.
Veronica
That is why I use and that's why we use it in our work.
Veronica
That's an on campus.
Veronica
We a.
Veronica
Lot of us use.
Veronica
Latin X and we use Hispanic and Latino interchangeably depending on the situation, really, because that's how government forms are right aware.
Marie
Exactly, I've just been aware that a lot of Hispanic folks are not crazy about it.
Veronica
It's a new term.
Veronica
Yeah, it's still a new term.
Veronica
I think with language changes it takes a while for some people to get on board.
Veronica
There's still lots of conversation.
Veronica
And debate over they them.
Marie
As pronoun, right yeah?
Veronica
You know that's here to stay.
Veronica
And that's what I love about language.
Veronica
Also is that this ID if you can grasp the idea that language evolves, that's a beautiful thing.
Marie
Well, I think that with transgender and non binary folks for me, I feel like it's waiting to see what terms they use and adopting those or asking them what what their pronouns are or whatever.
Marie
It's funny though, because my husband I've been doing Duolingo and at one point I studied German so I've been relearning my German and my Japanese.
Marie
And then I've also been trying to learn Spanish because I feel like of all the languages that would be the most useful that I can learn.
Marie
And it's so interesting because Spanish and both Spanish and German have these.
Marie
You know, masculine feminine articles for nails, and it's like, why does this particular noun have a feminine?
Marie
You know what I mean?
Marie
Start, you start asking these questions.
Marie
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Veronica
I know there are linguists out there who probably like it it.
Veronica
Makes it perfect.
Veronica
Yes blah blah blah.
Marie
Right, right, right.
Veronica
And for me, as a feminist and as an intersectional feminist, I am taking my cues from the population that is.
Marie
Right, right?
Veronica
Asking for things.
Veronica
Right exactly yeah, someone wants me to use they them pronouns.
Veronica
I'm all in and do it.
Marie
OK.
Veronica
I think if the queer Latino community says you know what, we don't feel included and we want to use Latin X got it.
Veronica
Check do it.
Marie
Yeah, I'm all for that.
Marie
So what kind of messages did you receive as a young girl and woman growing up?
Marie
Especially about studying science?
Veronica
I was I was completely supported.
Marie
So that's that's lucky, isn't it?
Veronica
Absolutely yes. I definitely.
So that I.
Veronica
Had a different upbringing than I think.
Veronica
A lot of girls in general and probably Latina girls.
Veronica
I'm the oldest of three girls and I was just very early on my teachers and my parents were pushing me to study math, go into science and it just study hard and at home.
Veronica
And in school the language was like when you go to college, not if you go to college.
Veronica
So the adults in my life created a road map for me and.
Veronica
As an oldest kid, I just follow that map and science was just naturally one of those things I really loved.
Veronica
But I also loved reading and writing.
Veronica
I just kind of took that path.
Veronica
And figured out.
Marie
Where I was going out as a powerhouse combination?
Marie
You know 'cause I worked in environmental consulting for 30 years with engineers and scientists who often did not love writing.
Marie
That's why I was valuable.
Marie
Right I would.
Marie
I would be translating writing, so yeah, but it's it's great to have that kind of background as site.
Marie
A scientist and a writer.
Marie
So you're lucky, that's great.
Marie
And same with teachers.
Marie
Your teachers were supportive and everything to.
Veronica
Absolutely they pushed.
Marie
Well, that's great.
Veronica
They pushed me really hard.
Marie
It shows what a difference that can make, doesn't it?
Veronica
Does it really does?
Veronica
When I talk to friends were like, oh, I'm not.
Veronica
Very good at math and I.
Veronica
Asked him about that.
Veronica
There's usually a teacher that told them they weren't good at math.
Veronica
Early on, two doubt the teachers didn't teach that they were just like oh don't worry about, you know you're.
Veronica
A good writer.
Marie
You're good reader.
Marie
Yeah, I interviewed this other woman and Namah who created an app called Girl Telligence for young girls and women and she was at brain researcher at Stanford before she left her career to create this app and she told me that she had a teacher.
Marie
Tell her when she was in a math class that she could take him much easier math class so she wouldn't have.
Marie
To work so.
Marie
Hard that's stuck with her, yes?
Marie
Yeah, unfortunately she didn't pay attention to the teacher and she went ahead with her classes.
Marie
Yeah, you never forget that kind of message you receive.
Veronica
Oh absolutely, teachers are are important.
Veronica
Teachers are influential.
Veronica
Yeah, it really, just it shows in.
Marie
Yeah, so let's talk about DI and stem and stab for listeners. If you're not aware stands for science, technology, engineering, and math, and you've been working on diversifying the STEM field for over 20 years.
Veronica
All the different ways.
Marie
What kind of challenges have you had in doing that?
Marie
What kind of changes have you seen?
Marie
We talked a little bit about that about the changes.
Marie
It's already, but what kind of challenges have you?
Veronica
Seen some of the challenges we have seen.
Veronica
There's a lot of backlash now with each step gained.
Veronica
Then there's somebody who's usually saying OK?
Veronica
Well, then you've made this progress.
Veronica
That means we're done.
Veronica
Yeah, like no doesn't mean we've gotten to the goal.
Veronica
We've just gotten closer to the goal.
Veronica
That doesn't mean.
Veronica
We let up on what we're doing. Women have been the majority of college going students since the 1980s. It doesn't mean.
Veronica
That we have achieved.
Veronica
Gender equity at any level of faculty in the Academy, even in female dominated spaces, doesn't mean that we don't need to keep track of salaries of who's being hired, why they're being hired in with positions, and the same for all their identities in that space.
Marie
Right?
Marie
So you also write extensively as a feminist and are involved in major feminist organizations.
Marie
I know you're on the board of Biche Media, great organization.
Marie
Do you have early memories of sexism and do you remember when you first kind of realize you're a feminist?
Veronica
I don't think I grasped the idea of being.
Veronica
A feminist until like high school.
Veronica
And but really, in college is when it really settled into me as like this is who I am.
This is.
Veronica
My identity and this is part of who I am and how I go about the world I.
Veronica
Again, I'm the oldest.
Veronica
Of three girls my.
Veronica
That is a huge sports.
Veronica
Person so.
Veronica
So I grew up playing ball and so.
Veronica
When you grow up.
Veronica
In the 80s playing ball you'll learn about.
Veronica
Sexism very very.
Veronica
Huh, you'll learn that the boys think you're not as strong and so you have to prove that you're just as strong that you could hit the ball just as well.
Veronica
You can catch the ball all.
Veronica
Those sorts of things, and so, yeah, my earliest memories of sexism and fighting back against fighting against the patriarchy is like playing football playing baseball.
Veronica
Playing soccer, the first protest I ever organized was second or third grade.
Veronica
When the boys were like no, only boys get to play soccer and I was like Nope.
Marie
Oh my gosh, I love it.
Veronica
I don't think so, and I didn't even like soccer.
Veronica
I was just wait and you cannot do that.
Marie
I love it.
Marie
My first protest.
Marie
I remember it was really that it was much more low.
Marie
Key was in fifth grade because I'm older than you.
Marie
I don't know if you did this but we used.
Marie
To have to do handwriting.
Marie
Oh yeah, yeah, right.
Marie
So it was a handwriting exercise and the sentence that we had to write about said something like it was some historical thing.
Marie
It's just something like many great man made this country.
Marie
You know what it is or something like that.
Marie
And so I again I'm you know now as a trade.
Marie
I'm a writer and edit.
Marie
So I started editing at age 10.
Marie
And so I.
Marie
Wrote like in the margins and women and my teacher who was my favorite teacher through my schooling was very supportive and she said you're so right about that Marie.
Marie
I got positive feedback for my little protest, so yeah.
Marie
And then when I was in college.
Marie
Same with you.
Marie
I took feminist theology and it kind of blew my world open.
Marie
I wouldn't have called myself a feminist before then, probably.
Marie
So, stem, like academia tends to be heavily male dominated.
Marie
As you know.
Marie
What can companies do to encourage women, especially women of color, to pursue STEM education and careers?
Veronica
Oh wow, I think with any field that particularly stem and companies and research the number of hours that goes into the STEM workplace necessitate the need for good support for families in general, being able to learn something from the last two years of this pandemic.
Veronica
That people want flex time if people need to work from home, if that work.
Veronica
Can be done remote.
Veronica
We let them stay home.
Veronica
Sometimes it's just.
Veronica
You're gonna get better work.
Veronica
If something could just roll out.
Veronica
Of bed, open their laptop and work for that day.
Veronica
Maybe every Monday they do that.
Veronica
Being able to have accessible child care, good health care.
Veronica
We are just predominantly still the caretakers in this country and until we address that, we.
Veronica
Aren't going to be able to make the strides we wanna make, or we say we want to make in different spaces.
Veronica
And that includes increasing number of women instead.
Marie
Yeah, I totally.
Marie
What about beyond benefits?
Marie
What other things can companies do beyond?
Marie
And healthcare flexibility.
Marie
Things like that.
Veronica
It's really about the climate, so the benefits are a big thing.
Veronica
Pay equity.
Veronica
Creating an atmosphere where harassment is not tolerated.
Veronica
Making sure that your HR department is not just protecting the company but protecting employees.
Veronica
There's a lot that's been written.
Veronica
Over the last couple of decades, about especially millennials not being loyal to companies, why should they be loyal to companies?
Veronica
And these aren't loyal to them, so if you're not going to pay people and protect them, make sure they have a good, supportive, safe space to work.
Veronica
You're not going to get the most.
Veronica
Out of those.
Veronica
Workers are not going to bring their best self to your office.
Marie
Yeah, so I think that what I've seen is a lot of companies tend to promote people who look like them and act like them, so you get this homogeneous management team.
Marie
That was the last company that I worked at, like there was one Japanese American man on the management team.
Marie
The executive.
Marie
And all the rest of them were white men, and they refused to shift.
Marie
So as they were talking about the I.
Marie
So I feel like white men kind of have to step aside.
Veronica
They need to.
Veronica
I don't like to say they.
Veronica
Need to step aside as.
Veronica
Much as they need to open.
Veronica
Their eyes, yeah, well, maybe both.
You know?
Marie
I, I think when I think back to this particular company though, they need to step aside because they need to create opportunities for for women and people of color.
Marie
And you know, and they would say they would say one thing, but then they would do the other.
Marie
That's kind.
Marie
Of what I'm saying that you know absolutely.
Marie
Always like to tell people.
Marie
Well, like white men are some of my best friends.
Marie
Like because I have three sons and three sons and husband, and they're all white men, right?
Marie
But I really do feel like they it's time for for white men to step aside.
Marie
That's my my opinion and open their eyes at same time, hopefully.
Veronica
Really, we're just a couple of days from the last Emmy.
Marie
Awards Oh my God I know.
Veronica
I'm I'm an award show junkie and so I love the drama and the fashion.
Veronica
The head of the Emmys went on and talked about diversity.
Veronica
And how did you know like how diverse the nominations were?
Marie
And they were yes, great.
Veronica
I was really.
Veronica
Excited, but I.
Veronica
Think almost no one of color, one right, a couple of great awards over one.
Veronica
But really, it was quite disappointing.
Marie
Oh so disappointing.
Veronica
It's very but.
Veronica
Very much like.
Marie
You say that's a great analogy for it, for diversity diversity.
Veronica
What leaders are liked?
Veronica
But it comes down.
Veronica
To pick winners or hire people they.
Marie
Don't yeah, that's a great analogy for the corporate world because you've got people of color.
Marie
In some companies they have people of color that they hire, but then they if you don't promote them, it sort of defeats the purpose really, it just makes everybody feel resentful.
Marie
So yeah, that was very disappointing.
Marie
I mean, I love Ted Lasso as a as a show.
Marie
It's a great show, but they swept everything and left a lot of people of color on the.
Marie
Cold so yeah.
Veronica
That in the crown.
Marie
And the crown. And then the Queen's gambit you know. And you know, did you read recently about the Queen's gambit that they're facing a lawsuit?
Marie
Yeah, I know, very interesting and and so depressing to hear this woman accomplished all these amazing things.
Marie
And then this show that was all about elevating women and chess.
Marie
Basically completely dissed her.
Veronica
Yes, they completely trashed her legacy.
Veronica
No, for a plot point.
Marie
That yeah, exactly so ridiculous.
Marie
So, so moving back to my questions.
Marie
So let's talk about what it's like to be a Latina in the corporate world.
Marie
I've interviewed on my on my other podcast, finding fertile ground.
Marie
I've interviewed a lot of black women who have dealt with a lot of challenges in the corporate world.
Marie
I haven't interviewed as many Latinas.
Marie
Which I need to fix.
Marie
What are specific challenges that you hear from your graduates about what they're facing in the corporate world?
Veronica
The challenge is that Latina phase in the workplace in the corporate world, they're very stereotypical, so our bodies get tagged and labeled as sexual things very early on.
Veronica
Probably hear similar things.
Veronica
From black women we are described in.
Veronica
How many times have you ever heard spicy Latina and description for somebody?
Veronica
We are labeled as loud, boisterous and maybe fun loud as opposed to like an angry black woman stereotype.
Veronica
So stereotypes are or typing is very similar, but I think that.
Veronica
One thing that Latina need to keep in mind is that our proximity to whiteness sometimes allows that boisterous to be that loudness to be more acceptable than from black woman.
Veronica
We occupy this base muddy.
Veronica
We know that there's this racist.
Veronica
That's sexist.
Veronica
Typing on it, but it's also 'cause it said we have this proximity to whiteness.
Veronica
A lot of us do I.
Veronica
I'm more of an olive colored media so I can present as Latina.
Veronica
I can present as Italian.
Veronica
I can just present as kind of ambiguous, sometimes depending on the situation and dependent.
Veronica
We're looking at and, so I think that the the challenges that Latina space are very complex, but also very expected in the way that we are seen as sexual beings.
Veronica
First, then, as human beings, some really cool beans, as in terms of stereotyping and all the negative stuff.
Veronica
All humans are sexual beings and we should all be very.
Marie
Positive 6 right, right, right, right, right.
Marie
I agree since we were talking about the Emmys.
Marie
What are your favorite positive cultural representations of Latinas in?
Marie
Movies or shows or books?
Veronica
Well, I think that almost anything that America fur does is really amazing.
Veronica
And my 10 year plan is to become her.
Veronica
Best friend but.
Marie
Oh she's awesome, yes.
Veronica
I think any representation of Latina that is complex.
Veronica
And wrestled with the world and what it means to be Latina.
Veronica
Even a lot of Jane the Virgin.
Oh yeah.
Veronica
James Path was very complex and multi layered and not stereotypical so I ask you and I try to stay away from characters that are more caricature and that doesn't need to be propped up by stereotypes in order.
Marie
Sorry yeah, well I think about take.
Marie
Orange is the new black for example there were some Latinas that were kind of that stereotype, but then there were others that were really richly complex.
It did.
Veronica
Didn't watch the show so.
Marie
She can't talk about it.
Veronica
Yeah, yeah, I can't talk about it and that's.
Veronica
One of the great things about I think the last few years is there has been.
Veronica
An increase of Latinos on TV or shows that include Tina.
Veronica
The characters.
Veronica
There was a short lived series Vida on one of the apps on Stars, which was super complex.
Veronica
And amazing, and it broke my heart when stars ended it.
Veronica
Netflix is a couple of great shows on my block is coming back and there's another one that I can't remember off the top of my head right now that centers on the Latino community and characters.
Veronica
The complexity of our lives that doesn't require stereotypes to.
Veronica
With the narrative board.
Marie
Yeah, have you seen the reboot of one data time?
Veronica
Oh my God, yes.
Marie
Yes, I love that I grew up watching one day at a time, but I love the reboot even better.
Veronica
Umm, that was one of my favorite shows.
Well, I know.
Marie
You two are young feminists.
Veronica
The kid.
Marie
Elves watching that show right?
Marie
I thought that they brought it back on another channel at one point.
Veronica
But yes, yes Netflix had cancelled it and then they brought it back on pop, which would then network that brought us Shitz Creek.
Marie
Oh, OK.
Veronica
Ah, CBS tried to move it.
Veronica
CBS probably owns pop and so they try to move it to CBS.
Veronica
And it didn't.
Veronica
Catch on it was also during the pandemic.
Veronica
They probably just and invest in it well enough, Joe.
Veronica
I want to see where Penelope goes.
Marie
Yes, I know.
Marie
I hope that they don't give up on it entirely, but the other thing is, I'm curious about whether you're excited about the reboot of West Side Story.
Veronica
I'm curious about.
Marie
It me too.
Veronica
It's one of those stories it's problematic.
Marie
Uh-huh yeah.
Veronica
Setting level from its origin story, but I love.
Marie
Music yeah, and then the idea that that Rita Moreno is in it too.
Marie
I saw in the trailer that's a classic example of Natalie Wood playing Maria, you know, so hopefully it'll be better represented.
Right?
Marie
But then I know that there were some challenges with the in the heights musical as well.
Marie
So yeah, exactly.
Marie
I mean, Hollywood doesn't know.
Veronica
I think it's perfect you.
Veronica
Can't enjoy what you enjoy.
Marie
Exactly exactly, yeah?
Veronica
Quickly with a critical lab.
Marie
Exactly, we're always learning.
Marie
I mean, I, I think that Lin-manuel Miranda had a really great response to that.
Marie
You know, it's like, yeah, we, we didn't do this entirely, right?
Marie
I mean he owned it, so that's good, but we have to improve wherever we can.
Marie
So do you have any specific anecdotes that you'd like to share about the way you've helped young women break into stem?
Veronica
Fields I try to go at it by.
Veronica
Starting where they are so I don't come in and say you need to be a scientist because XY and Z, as in what their interests are, where that might lie.
Veronica
One of my classic stories I like to say is I just talking to a high school girl a few years ago and she was like I don't need science 'cause I'm gonna design my own makeup line.
Veronica
I was like.
Veronica
That is also.
It's all science.
Veronica
Yeah, or I don't need science 'cause I'm going to be a model.
Veronica
I was like.
Veronica
Well, that's probably not going to last very long.
Veronica
Or if you look at every successful model they're leveraging that platform to do something else, which is usually ends up in perfumer makeups, and so you know having a good science background.
Veronica
Gives you something.
Veronica
If you fall.
Veronica
Back into science you're sad.
Marie
Yeah, that's a great example.
Marie
From what you've seen in your research and the relationships that you developed, can you describe the ideal company for us?
Marie
Just dream it up.
Marie
What would it look?
Veronica
Like Oh my goodness, ideal company.
Veronica
I think every morning you come in and there's some fresh croissants waiting for you and wonderful coffee.
Veronica
You have great benefits.
Veronica
Everyone knows what everyone else is making, so there's great pay equity there.
Veronica
It's collaborative.
Veronica
I don't want to think that companies are families.
Veronica
That's not what I.
Marie
Yeah, no, I don't like that either.
Veronica
I want people to.
Veronica
Have voice and how work is done even if you have to maintain some sort of hierarchy so decisions are made.
Veronica
If everything consensus, nothing after should happen.
Veronica
Respect all around for everyone humanity in life.
Marie
And maybe a leadership that represents the population or something you know.
Marie
Percentage wise.
Marie
Yeah, great.
Marie
I see you're at Dar Williams.
Veronica
I am.
Marie
Which is she's kind.
Marie
Of a little obscure.
Marie
So how did you discover that about me that I liked are Williams?
Veronica
So my Dar Williams origin story is that I went to the feminist Expo in 2000, so the feminist majority held a conference in 2000 and she was playing and that is actually a conference.
Veronica
That was where I first met my best friend with Jennifer Pozner.
Veronica
We knew each other online for a couple of years and we first met in person there.
Veronica
Dar was playing and I had never heard of her, and Jenn was like you need to listen to this woman.
Veronica
I've heard her you're gonna love her and I have been in love with Dar Williamson.
Marie
Yeah, I've seen her in concert so many times.
Veronica
I tried to see her every time she rolls.
Veronica
Into Chicago.
Marie
Yes, me too.
Marie
In fact, she's coming to Portland in November.
Marie
I think Portland, as a city is very science positive so.
Marie
So we have masks required in all indoor spaces, so hopefully that'll fill go ahead.
Veronica
I've seen her many times I've met her.
Marie
I've done the yeah.
Veronica
Me too many times.
Veronica
And she's just always so sweet.
Me too.
Marie
I know she's amazing and well, I was so delighted about my middle son went off to college this fall and he's at Wesleyan, which then I discovered.
Marie
That's where Darwin.
Veronica
No such great stories about Wesley ended.
Marie
Because, and I think I didn't really.
Marie
I mean, I think I'd heard of Wesleyan, but I you know, it's on we're out of the West Coast and it's on the east.
Marie
Princeton, but yeah, I was so excited to discover that.
Marie
So I played my son that song.
Marie
You know the song she sings about her boyfriend being in the hemp liberation leaf.
Marie
Like like this must be about Wesleyan.
So funny.
Veronica
Very much. She's just lovely.
Marie
Cool and do you have any Latina music recommendations that you want to share with?
Whoa, off the top of.
Veronica
My head, I don't it's.
Veronica
Like now, I'm just like all in.
Veronica
My head that was our millions you do.
Marie
And put you on the spot.
Marie
I know one that I can think of that I really like is Tish Hinojos a?
Marie
Yes, she's really good, but she's not very well known, really, right?
Marie
So well that I can think of off.
Marie
The top of my head, I think that.
Veronica
One of the.
Veronica
Things that is talking about like hidden gem.
Veronica
It's more of like a secret is that Linda?
Veronica
Onset is Latina.
Marie
Oh, really.
Veronica
Ah, and so people talk to think about her.
Veronica
When you think about goes Latina music, so she's the queen of that.
Marie
She is and she is Latina.
Marie
Have you heard Joan Baez is Spanish album?
Marie
Not it's very obscure, hard to get a hold up, but you.
Marie
I'm sure you can find it on Spotify now, but it's called gracias La Vida so really get out on my recommended.
Marie
If you like folk.
Marie
Music as I assume.
Veronica
OK I love.
Marie
You do yes yes yes yes yes.
Well so.
Marie
So my final question, Veronica, is what advice do you have for people who want to create?
Marie
Companies that care.
Veronica
Put your people first as opposed to profits.
Veronica
People on planet first.
Veronica
If you manage and direct and craft from that space, I think that you're gonna have great success and we don't need companies that look like Amazon that just dominate successes and have to be domination.
Marie
Is there anything else you'd like to say to our listeners?
Veronica
So I also have a podcast called the Feminist Agenda.
Veronica
Oh, you can find that on anchor or find me on Twitter and Instagram.
Veronica
At Feministing cats, I took a little break over the summer, but hopefully by the time this who runs, there'll be plenty of new episodes or winter look.
Marie
I'll check that out.
Marie
Have you ever listened to the podcast?
Marie
The guilty feminist that is out of the UK and I recommend it started out as a show, but I think that in the pandemic I don't know that I don't think they're still doing the show and they start out each episode by saying.
Veronica
No I have.
Marie
I'm a feminist, but and then having a confession, the host is her name is Deborah Frances White.
Marie
She loves Jon Hamm, so often has to do something with Jon Hamm.
Marie
Like I'm a feminist, but if Jon Hamm told me to do such and such, I do it a second or whatever.
Marie
So it's very fun, so I haven't listened to it recently, but I recommend it and I'm going to check yours out too.
OK.
Marie
Well, this has just been a pleasure to get to know you, Veronica, I hope we get to talk again in the future.
Veronica
Definitely, let's do this again.
Marie
Thanks so much.
Marie
Have a great day.
Veronica
You too.
Veronica is doing such outstanding work in helping young people jump on the STEM train, especially students of color. I enjoyed our discussion about music and entertainment…it’s not often I find another person who is obsessed with Dar Williams!
Next week on the Finding Fertile Ground podcast, I interview Mike Ganino, a highly acclaimed public speaker and coach. Mike and his husband had a baby through a surrogate, and their baby Viviana was born prematurely in Mexico, during the pandemic. What a ride!
Thanks for listening to Companies That Care. If you like today's episode, check out our other episodes and subscribe. And don’t forget to contact me if you’d like a 30-minute communications consultation. Our music is by jazz pianist Jonathan Swanson. This podcast is brought to you by Fertile Ground Communications.