Veronica Arreola, Educator and Policy Activist: Working to diversify the STEM field and help Latinx students thrive Artwork

Companies That Care

The Companies That Care podcast highlights business leaders who are making a difference in the world. Hosted by Marie Gettel-Gilmartin, founder of Fertile Ground Communications and host of the Finding Fertile Ground podcast. I have a passion for companies that care and give back to their communities. The first three episodes of Companies That Care, launched on Earth Day 2021, focus on sustainable fashion, food, and corporate philanthropy.

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Companies That Care

Veronica Arreola, Educator and Policy Activist: Working to diversify the STEM field and help Latinx students thrive

November 30, 2021 • Marie Gettel-Gilmartin • Season 1 • Episode 20

The Companies that Care podcast highlights companies and business leaders who are making a difference in the world, like Veronica Arreola, a professional feminist, mom, and writer who has been working to diversify the science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) field for over 20 years. She has a particular passion for working with Latinx/Latina youth.

Veronica is director of Hispanic Serving Institution Initiatives for the University of Illinois-Chicago and most recently was program director for their Hispanic Serving Institution STEM grant, Latin@s Gaining Access to Networks for Advancement in Science. She ensures a supportive campus environment for Latinx students studying science. She also writes and speaks regularly about empowering women, including women of color.

We talked about how to encourage young women and girls to pursue STEM fields, especially Latinx/Latina/Hispanic students. She shared her thoughts on how companies can do a better job with diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how to create companies that care, especially for people of color.

And we also talked about music and entertainment…namely Dar Williams and other folk music and TV shows that have positive representation of Latinas.

Next week on the Finding Fertile Ground podcast, I interview Mike Ganino, a highly acclaimed public speaker and coach. Mike and his husband had a baby through a surrogate, and their baby Viviana was born prematurely in Mexico, during the pandemic. What a ride!

The Companies That Care podcast is brought to you by Fertile Ground Communications. I alternate the Companies That Care podcast with my original podcast, Finding Fertile Ground, which shares personal stories of grit and resilience. On both my podcasts I strive to highlight voices from historically excluded populations, people who don't always get a platform.

Marie Gettel-Gilmartin, founder and principal of Fertile Ground Communications LLC, is a writer and marketing communications consultant who loves to take the pain and stress out of writing for her clients. She specializes in making the complex clear, using dynamic, accessible language to explain and communicate important issues. She positions her clients as experts in their fields and helps them communicate about pressing issues. Writing communications that boost employee engagement and thought leadership, she also coaches leaders and executives on how to strengthen communications and leadership. She loves to connect people and resources or solve seemingly impossible problems.

As a podcaster for justice, I stand with my sisters from the Women of Color Podcasters Community. We are podcasters united to condemn the tragic murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and many others at the hands of police.

Fertile Ground Communications LLC is a certified women-owned business enterprise, disadvantaged business enterprise, and emerging small business.

Welcome to Companies That Care. I'm your host, Marie Gettel-Gilmartin, and this podcast is brought to you by Fertile Ground Communications.

Do you struggle to put words to the screen? Is writing the very last thing you want to do in your day? My mission is to make communications painless for my clients. I can turn a piece of lackluster, jargon-filled or technical prose into clear dynamic narrative. I help my clients discover how to tell their stories or solve their communications challenges. Look us up on fertilegroundcommunications.com. I’d love to give you a free 30-minute consult.

I alternate this Companies that Care podcast with my other podcast, Finding Fertile Ground, which is about personal stories of grit and resilience. On both of my podcasts, I strive to highlight voices from historically excluded populations…people who don’t always get a platform. You can find information about both podcasts on my website and social media.

This week I have something a little different. I’ve worked with engineers and scientists most of my career, and I’m aware of the need to diversify these fields. Today I’m interviewing Veronica Arreola, a professional feminist, mom, and writer who has been working to diversify the science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) field for over 20 years. She has a particular passion for working with Latinx/Latina youth.

We talked about how to encourage young women and girls to pursue STEM fields, especially Latina/Latinx students. She shared her thoughts on how companies can do a better job with diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how to create companies that care, especially for people of color.

Let’s meet Veronica and hear her thoughts about diversifying the STEM field.

Marie

Hello Veronica, thank you so much for joining Companies That Care today.

Veronica

Hello, thank you for having me.

Marie

Yeah, it's great to meet you after we've been connected on social media for a while, so it's great to have a conversation with you.

Marie

Let's start at the very beginning.

Marie

Can you tell our listeners how you got here in your life?

Marie

What led you down this career path?

Veronica

Oh well, I've been thinking about that a Lot lately because I'm in the process of changing jobs. I work in higher education at the University of Illinois at Chicago and have been here for many years.

Veronica

How I got here?

Veronica

I don't know how to explain.

Veronica

How I got here.

Veronica

I think I just the universe pulled me in this direction.

Veronica

I work in student affairs, academic affairs.

Veronica

I work mostly with science and engineering students, and right now the last five years I've worked with.

Veronica

Latin X identified students in science.

Veronica

I say the universe.

Veronica

Pulled me in this direction because.

Veronica

When I was a kid in elementary school, I remember around 4th grade.

Veronica

My teacher said something about the preschools looking for students who want to help out in their extra time.

Veronica

Basically skip lunch once a week or skip recess once a week and coming down.

Veronica

And helped the preschoolers learn some basic words and I vividly remember skipping.

Veronica

Recessed once a week to go and help, and asking preschoolers to you know put the dinosaur on top of the bowl.

Veronica

Under the bowl on the right, those like really simple things that just helped the teacher, I think, be able to manage the classroom and give some kids a little extra time.

Veronica

A little extra attention on mastering these concepts and since then I have been a tutor.

Veronica

In high school I volunteered and helped organize our math Tutor Center and then when I got to college I also volunteered as a math tutor and just kind of fell into what was drawn into the space.

Veronica

No, my career.

Veronica

Has been.

Veronica

Here for a couple of.

Veronica

Decades in terms of working with students closely to help them stay on track.

Marie

I love those origin stories, like asking people like what I do website copy for them like what was it that made you become an engineer?

Marie

I mean the engineer stories.

Marie

Especially really interesting, like I crossed a bridge and I decided I wanted to build a bridge.

Marie

Or whatever you know.

Marie

So yeah, that's really interesting, and I think that I share some of that in common with you because I was drawn to helping younger children when I was young as well and thought I wanted to be a teacher.

Marie

I ended up taking a different path.

Veronica

Yeah, absolutely.

Veronica

I thought I might want to be a teacher as well.

Veronica

My high school algebra teacher still wishes I had become a teacher, but.

Marie

I bet yes.

Veronica

My bad.

Marie

The other thing that I relate to is that throughout my career I have not necessarily set goals.

Marie

I've just the way I describe it is that I have seen.

Marie

The brass ring ahead of me and I've taken it.

Veronica

I like that I like that.

Marie

Yeah, because like throughout my time in corporate America, I had some really great opportunities and positions, but I didn't necessarily set my goals that way.

Marie

It was more like something appeared before me and that I was encouraged by others to advance and take the opportunities.

Marie

And I think that's just fine.

Marie

You don't necessarily have to know what you want to do with your life.

Veronica

I I think I just kind of built my future.

Veronica

Yes, along I.

Veronica

Didn't I just knew this is the last couple of decades?

Veronica

Just knew this is where the space I wanted to be in working at a university working with students.

Veronica

I was a first generation college student.

Veronica

Most of the students I work with are also first generation college students in helping guide them helping them.

Veronica

Figure out how to grab their brass.

Marie

Great, I love it.

Marie

That's such a gift that you're giving to them.

Marie

The other thing is I I'm guessing that you're in your 40s.

Marie

Is that correct, OK?

Veronica

I am.

Marie

OK, yeah, so I'm in my 50s and I was just curious when you were the first member of your family to earn a college degree.

Marie

It seems like now colleges do a really good job of helping first generation students.

Marie

Did you have that support at the college when you went off to college?

Veronica

There was a support program.

Veronica

There was some support at the university and I did my undergraduate where I asked also work.

Veronica

I've been here a very long time, but there's definitely more and the work I'm doing now is more specialized, something that I really would have been drawn to as undergraduate as opposed to a more general support when I was an undergraduate was buried focus.

Veronica

I was definitely that student who would like blinders on like this is where I'm going.

Veronica

Align with that, I'm ignoring it at my peril, and there were definitely points where I know I ignored things at my peril.

Veronica

But yeah, I.

Veronica

Think that today the last decade or so they we've definitely been at the higher education level, recognizing the additional supports that the first generation college students need to have.

Veronica

In order to close the representation achievement gap.

Marie

What a great opportunity to be able to design a program that you would have loved to.

Veronica

Have had Oh my gosh, yes, I really do feel like my whole career is just built on like what would I have wanted as a college.

Veronica

Student design that.

Marie

I love that idea that's so cool.

Marie

And so how did that feel like during college without any close role models?

Marie

Did you have adult role models in your life that you could follow if they weren't in your family?

Veronica

I know I had a few cousins who had gone to college and become lawyers and other professionals.

Veronica

My mom went back to college when I was in middle school.

Veronica

And earned her nursing degree.

Veronica

So I saw her go through the whole Community College route, so I had this general sense of what lay ahead of me, but I didn't have.

Veronica

The whole concept of four year university experience.

Marie

Yeah, yeah.

Veronica

When I was an undergraduate, my school was very much a commuter campus, so I didn't live in the dorms, had a very untraditional college experience while I did get in and out in four years.

Veronica

So no, I didn't have.

Veronica

A lot of role models I just tried to like pick things from different stories, which is why the work I do now.

Veronica

Is just so.

Veronica

Valuable to me personally is particularly helping incoming new students mind peers on campus.

Veronica

Who they can?

Veronica

And role model and ask.

Marie

Questions, so for our listeners who do not read the show notes, can you just explain what your current role is?

Veronica

Sure, my current role is a program director of Latinos and Science Office.

Veronica

We call it less Ghana, and we have different services, including professional coaches transition.

Veronica

Coaches who work with students during their first year on campus, and we research fellowship or advanced students but.

Veronica

The one piece that's really near and dear to my heart is our mentoring Kangana program, which is our peer mentor program where again we match up new students with.

Veronica

Students who've been.

Veronica

On campus for a couple of years and are successful and can answer those questions that only students can answer it for each other.

Marie

Wonderful, so I'm guessing also when you were in college, were there many programs serving Latinas?

Veronica

No, not that I was aware of.

Veronica

There's one legacy office on campus.

Veronica

Who has done an amazing job at recruiting at retaining our Latin X students for decades now?

Veronica

But there were student organizations but nothing is at last count is asthmatic students were interested in science who are majoring in science.

Veronica

It's a very focused program.

Marie

Think that now there's more attention.

Marie

Focused on particular cultural groups too, and more understanding that they need to be around other people like them and they they do.

Marie

That way you're younger than me.

Marie

I'm guessing that back then they didn't really recognize that as much.

Veronica

It's a shifting in a frame, a shifting of how you view things. Though 20-30 years ago we thought if we could just get enough people of whatever profile more women, instead more Latinos, instant or black.

Veronica

Students and stem.

Veronica

If we just got enough in the beginning stages, we would be OK.

Veronica

And then we've just come to realize that there are just systemic.

Veronica

Within academia, that is why certain people don't succeed.

Veronica

While we don't get the outputs that we would expect because it's not about intellect a lot about its preparation and preparation comes down to like how good your high school was, not how good of a student you are.

Veronica

You are, yeah, those are big differences to have to disentangle.

Veronica

Once you get to the university level, so being able to address these things in different places is really what we have made strides in.

Veronica

So I used to also direct our women in science and engineering.

Veronica

Program, though taking traditional viewpoints of science and engineering, and addressing it from a perspective of women or Latinas, those are two things making it real and concrete really helps.

Veronica

We try to talk about science.

Veronica

We complicate science.

Veronica

By talking about how much we need science for the Latino community in terms of healthcare.

Veronica

But we also talk about how we have environmental racism in this country.

Veronica

Why are so many factories located in Latino communities?

Veronica

There's a high rate of asthma in Latino.

Veronica

Communities is that because we're prone to it or because we live near power plants?

Veronica

Are we have industrial trucks run into our neighborhoods?

Veronica

All day long.

Veronica

That's where we come in and try to have those conversations.

Veronica

Make it real.

Marie

Yeah, it's so important to have that representation of the STEM community. Definitely the other thing I think about also is the way that DI has evolved in the business world.

Marie

That 20 or 30 years ago again, people thought we just need to hire more people of color, for example, but not recognizing that you can't just hire them.

Marie

You have to create a climate of support.

You know?

Veronica

Absolutely not.

Marie

Where they can thrive, and I imagine it's the same thing at the university level that you can't just bring people in.

Marie

I, I think back to when I was in college and I had a few black friends.

Marie

And they often would not stick out through all four years out of like three of the blackbirds I had.

Marie

I think two of them dropped out.

Marie

It was a predominantly white campus, so that's probably had something to do with it.

Veronica

Yeah, yeah.

Veronica

I, I think that you know 20.

Veronica

30 years ago we thought that.

Veronica

You got to campus and you could put your identity aside and just focus on your subject subjects right?

Veronica

And your major and what we do?

Veronica

At least gonna.

Veronica

Say you know you're bringing all our identities to the lab table.

Veronica

Does this make our science stronger better?

Marie

So I have a quick question about the term Latin X, because I've heard that a lot of Latin X people don't like that term I just I'm curious about what your thoughts are about that.

Veronica

Yeah, so I learned that.

Veronica

My next from queer people.

Marie

Huh, yeah, they don't have a with the articles, right?

Veronica

Exactly, yes, so it was proposed as an inclusive way of talking about the community or population or group of people.

Veronica

That is why I use and that's why we use it in our work.

Veronica

That's an on campus.

Veronica

We a.

Veronica

Lot of us use.

Veronica

Latin X and we use Hispanic and Latino interchangeably depending on the situation, really, because that's how government forms are right aware.

Marie

Exactly, I've just been aware that a lot of Hispanic folks are not crazy about it.

Veronica

It's a new term.

Veronica

Yeah, it's still a new term.

Veronica

I think with language changes it takes a while for some people to get on board.

Veronica

There's still lots of conversation.

Veronica

And debate over they them.

Marie

As pronoun, right yeah?

Veronica

You know that's here to stay.

Veronica

And that's what I love about language.

Veronica

Also is that this ID if you can grasp the idea that language evolves, that's a beautiful thing.

Marie

Well, I think that with transgender and non binary folks for me, I feel like it's waiting to see what terms they use and adopting those or asking them what what their pronouns are or whatever.

Marie

It's funny though, because my husband I've been doing Duolingo and at one point I studied German so I've been relearning my German and my Japanese.

Marie

And then I've also been trying to learn Spanish because I feel like of all the languages that would be the most useful that I can learn.

Marie

And it's so interesting because Spanish and both Spanish and German have these.

Marie

You know, masculine feminine articles for nails, and it's like, why does this particular noun have a feminine?

Marie

You know what I mean?

Marie

Start, you start asking these questions.

Marie

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Veronica

I know there are linguists out there who probably like it it.

Veronica

Makes it perfect.

Veronica

Yes blah blah blah.

Marie

Right, right, right.

Veronica

And for me, as a feminist and as an intersectional feminist, I am taking my cues from the population that is.

Marie

Right, right?

Veronica

Asking for things.

Veronica

Right exactly yeah, someone wants me to use they them pronouns.

Veronica

I'm all in and do it.

Marie

OK.

Veronica

I think if the queer Latino community says you know what, we don't feel included and we want to use Latin X got it.

Veronica

Check do it.

Marie

Yeah, I'm all for that.

Marie

So what kind of messages did you receive as a young girl and woman growing up?

Marie

Especially about studying science?

Veronica

I was I was completely supported.

Marie

So that's that's lucky, isn't it?

Veronica

Absolutely yes. I definitely.

So that I.

Veronica

Had a different upbringing than I think.

Veronica

A lot of girls in general and probably Latina girls.

Veronica

I'm the oldest of three girls and I was just very early on my teachers and my parents were pushing me to study math, go into science and it just study hard and at home.

Veronica

And in school the language was like when you go to college, not if you go to college.

Veronica

So the adults in my life created a road map for me and.

Veronica

As an oldest kid, I just follow that map and science was just naturally one of those things I really loved.

Veronica

But I also loved reading and writing.

Veronica

I just kind of took that path.

Veronica

And figured out.

Marie

Where I was going out as a powerhouse combination?

Marie

You know 'cause I worked in environmental consulting for 30 years with engineers and scientists who often did not love writing.

Marie

That's why I was valuable.

Marie

Right I would.

Marie

I would be translating writing, so yeah, but it's it's great to have that kind of background as site.

Marie

A scientist and a writer.

Marie

So you're lucky, that's great.

Marie

And same with teachers.

Marie

Your teachers were supportive and everything to.

Veronica

Absolutely they pushed.

Marie

Well, that's great.

Veronica

They pushed me really hard.

Marie

It shows what a difference that can make, doesn't it?

Veronica

Does it really does?

Veronica

When I talk to friends were like, oh, I'm not.

Veronica

Very good at math and I.

Veronica

Asked him about that.

Veronica

There's usually a teacher that told them they weren't good at math.

Veronica

Early on, two doubt the teachers didn't teach that they were just like oh don't worry about, you know you're.

Veronica

A good writer.

Marie

You're good reader.

Marie

Yeah, I interviewed this other woman and Namah who created an app called Girl Telligence for young girls and women and she was at brain researcher at Stanford before she left her career to create this app and she told me that she had a teacher.

Marie

Tell her when she was in a math class that she could take him much easier math class so she wouldn't have.

Marie

To work so.

Marie

Hard that's stuck with her, yes?

Marie

Yeah, unfortunately she didn't pay attention to the teacher and she went ahead with her classes.

Marie

Yeah, you never forget that kind of message you receive.

Veronica

Oh absolutely, teachers are are important.

Veronica

Teachers are influential.

Veronica

Yeah, it really, just it shows in.

Marie

Yeah, so let's talk about DI and stem and stab for listeners. If you're not aware stands for science, technology, engineering, and math, and you've been working on diversifying the STEM field for over 20 years.

Veronica

All the different ways.

Marie

What kind of challenges have you had in doing that?

Marie

What kind of changes have you seen?

Marie

We talked a little bit about that about the changes.

Marie

It's already, but what kind of challenges have you?

Veronica

Seen some of the challenges we have seen.

Veronica

There's a lot of backlash now with each step gained.

Veronica

Then there's somebody who's usually saying OK?

Veronica

Well, then you've made this progress.

Veronica

That means we're done.

Veronica

Yeah, like no doesn't mean we've gotten to the goal.

Veronica

We've just gotten closer to the goal.

Veronica

That doesn't mean.

Veronica

We let up on what we're doing. Women have been the majority of college going students since the 1980s. It doesn't mean.

Veronica

That we have achieved.

Veronica

Gender equity at any level of faculty in the Academy, even in female dominated spaces, doesn't mean that we don't need to keep track of salaries of who's being hired, why they're being hired in with positions, and the same for all their identities in that space.

Marie

Right?

Marie

So you also write extensively as a feminist and are involved in major feminist organizations.

Marie

I know you're on the board of Biche Media, great organization.

Marie

Do you have early memories of sexism and do you remember when you first kind of realize you're a feminist?

Veronica

I don't think I grasped the idea of being.

Veronica

A feminist until like high school.

Veronica

And but really, in college is when it really settled into me as like this is who I am.

This is.

Veronica

My identity and this is part of who I am and how I go about the world I.

Veronica

Again, I'm the oldest.

Veronica

Of three girls my.

Veronica

That is a huge sports.

Veronica

Person so.

Veronica

So I grew up playing ball and so.

Veronica

When you grow up.

Veronica

In the 80s playing ball you'll learn about.

Veronica

Sexism very very.

Veronica

Huh, you'll learn that the boys think you're not as strong and so you have to prove that you're just as strong that you could hit the ball just as well.

Veronica

You can catch the ball all.

Veronica

Those sorts of things, and so, yeah, my earliest memories of sexism and fighting back against fighting against the patriarchy is like playing football playing baseball.

Veronica

Playing soccer, the first protest I ever organized was second or third grade.

Veronica

When the boys were like no, only boys get to play soccer and I was like Nope.

Marie

Oh my gosh, I love it.

Veronica

I don't think so, and I didn't even like soccer.

Veronica

I was just wait and you cannot do that.

Marie

I love it.

Marie

My first protest.

Marie

I remember it was really that it was much more low.

Marie

Key was in fifth grade because I'm older than you.

Marie

I don't know if you did this but we used.

Marie

To have to do handwriting.

Marie

Oh yeah, yeah, right.

Marie

So it was a handwriting exercise and the sentence that we had to write about said something like it was some historical thing.

Marie

It's just something like many great man made this country.

Marie

You know what it is or something like that.

Marie

And so I again I'm you know now as a trade.

Marie

I'm a writer and edit.

Marie

So I started editing at age 10.

Marie

And so I.

Marie

Wrote like in the margins and women and my teacher who was my favorite teacher through my schooling was very supportive and she said you're so right about that Marie.

Marie

I got positive feedback for my little protest, so yeah.

Marie

And then when I was in college.

Marie

Same with you.

Marie

I took feminist theology and it kind of blew my world open.

Marie

I wouldn't have called myself a feminist before then, probably.

Marie

So, stem, like academia tends to be heavily male dominated.

Marie

As you know.

Marie

What can companies do to encourage women, especially women of color, to pursue STEM education and careers?

Veronica

Oh wow, I think with any field that particularly stem and companies and research the number of hours that goes into the STEM workplace necessitate the need for good support for families in general, being able to learn something from the last two years of this pandemic.

Veronica

That people want flex time if people need to work from home, if that work.

Veronica

Can be done remote.

Veronica

We let them stay home.

Veronica

Sometimes it's just.

Veronica

You're gonna get better work.

Veronica

If something could just roll out.

Veronica

Of bed, open their laptop and work for that day.

Veronica

Maybe every Monday they do that.

Veronica

Being able to have accessible child care, good health care.

Veronica

We are just predominantly still the caretakers in this country and until we address that, we.

Veronica

Aren't going to be able to make the strides we wanna make, or we say we want to make in different spaces.

Veronica

And that includes increasing number of women instead.

Marie

Yeah, I totally.

Marie

What about beyond benefits?

Marie

What other things can companies do beyond?

Marie

And healthcare flexibility.

Marie

Things like that.

Veronica

It's really about the climate, so the benefits are a big thing.

Veronica

Pay equity.

Veronica

Creating an atmosphere where harassment is not tolerated.

Veronica

Making sure that your HR department is not just protecting the company but protecting employees.

Veronica

There's a lot that's been written.

Veronica

Over the last couple of decades, about especially millennials not being loyal to companies, why should they be loyal to companies?

Veronica

And these aren't loyal to them, so if you're not going to pay people and protect them, make sure they have a good, supportive, safe space to work.

Veronica

You're not going to get the most.

Veronica

Out of those.

Veronica

Workers are not going to bring their best self to your office.

Marie

Yeah, so I think that what I've seen is a lot of companies tend to promote people who look like them and act like them, so you get this homogeneous management team.

Marie

That was the last company that I worked at, like there was one Japanese American man on the management team.

Marie

The executive.

Marie

And all the rest of them were white men, and they refused to shift.

Marie

So as they were talking about the I.

Marie

So I feel like white men kind of have to step aside.

Veronica

They need to.

Veronica

I don't like to say they.

Veronica

Need to step aside as.

Veronica

Much as they need to open.

Veronica

Their eyes, yeah, well, maybe both.

You know?

Marie

I, I think when I think back to this particular company though, they need to step aside because they need to create opportunities for for women and people of color.

Marie

And you know, and they would say they would say one thing, but then they would do the other.

Marie

That's kind.

Marie

Of what I'm saying that you know absolutely.

Marie

Always like to tell people.

Marie

Well, like white men are some of my best friends.

Marie

Like because I have three sons and three sons and husband, and they're all white men, right?

Marie

But I really do feel like they it's time for for white men to step aside.

Marie

That's my my opinion and open their eyes at same time, hopefully.

Veronica

Really, we're just a couple of days from the last Emmy.

Marie

Awards Oh my God I know.

Veronica

I'm I'm an award show junkie and so I love the drama and the fashion.

Veronica

The head of the Emmys went on and talked about diversity.

Veronica

And how did you know like how diverse the nominations were?

Marie

And they were yes, great.

Veronica

I was really.

Veronica

Excited, but I.

Veronica

Think almost no one of color, one right, a couple of great awards over one.

Veronica

But really, it was quite disappointing.

Marie

Oh so disappointing.

Veronica

It's very but.

Veronica

Very much like.

Marie

You say that's a great analogy for it, for diversity diversity.

Veronica

What leaders are liked?

Veronica

But it comes down.

Veronica

To pick winners or hire people they.

Marie

Don't yeah, that's a great analogy for the corporate world because you've got people of color.

Marie

In some companies they have people of color that they hire, but then they if you don't promote them, it sort of defeats the purpose really, it just makes everybody feel resentful.

Marie

So yeah, that was very disappointing.

Marie

I mean, I love Ted Lasso as a as a show.

Marie

It's a great show, but they swept everything and left a lot of people of color on the.

Marie

Cold so yeah.

Veronica

That in the crown.

Marie

And the crown. And then the Queen's gambit you know. And you know, did you read recently about the Queen's gambit that they're facing a lawsuit?

Marie

Yeah, I know, very interesting and and so depressing to hear this woman accomplished all these amazing things.

Marie

And then this show that was all about elevating women and chess.

Marie

Basically completely dissed her.

Veronica

Yes, they completely trashed her legacy.

Veronica

No, for a plot point.

Marie

That yeah, exactly so ridiculous.

Marie

So, so moving back to my questions.

Marie

So let's talk about what it's like to be a Latina in the corporate world.

Marie

I've interviewed on my on my other podcast, finding fertile ground.

Marie

I've interviewed a lot of black women who have dealt with a lot of challenges in the corporate world.

Marie

I haven't interviewed as many Latinas.

Marie

Which I need to fix.

Marie

What are specific challenges that you hear from your graduates about what they're facing in the corporate world?

Veronica

The challenge is that Latina phase in the workplace in the corporate world, they're very stereotypical, so our bodies get tagged and labeled as sexual things very early on.

Veronica

Probably hear similar things.

Veronica

From black women we are described in.

Veronica

How many times have you ever heard spicy Latina and description for somebody?

Veronica

We are labeled as loud, boisterous and maybe fun loud as opposed to like an angry black woman stereotype.

Veronica

So stereotypes are or typing is very similar, but I think that.

Veronica

One thing that Latina need to keep in mind is that our proximity to whiteness sometimes allows that boisterous to be that loudness to be more acceptable than from black woman.

Veronica

We occupy this base muddy.

Veronica

We know that there's this racist.

Veronica

That's sexist.

Veronica

Typing on it, but it's also 'cause it said we have this proximity to whiteness.

Veronica

A lot of us do I.

Veronica

I'm more of an olive colored media so I can present as Latina.

Veronica

I can present as Italian.

Veronica

I can just present as kind of ambiguous, sometimes depending on the situation and dependent.

Veronica

We're looking at and, so I think that the the challenges that Latina space are very complex, but also very expected in the way that we are seen as sexual beings.

Veronica

First, then, as human beings, some really cool beans, as in terms of stereotyping and all the negative stuff.

Veronica

All humans are sexual beings and we should all be very.

Marie

Positive 6 right, right, right, right, right.

Marie

I agree since we were talking about the Emmys.

Marie

What are your favorite positive cultural representations of Latinas in?

Marie

Movies or shows or books?

Veronica

Well, I think that almost anything that America fur does is really amazing.

Veronica

And my 10 year plan is to become her.

Veronica

Best friend but.

Marie

Oh she's awesome, yes.

Veronica

I think any representation of Latina that is complex.

Veronica

And wrestled with the world and what it means to be Latina.

Veronica

Even a lot of Jane the Virgin.

Oh yeah.

Veronica

James Path was very complex and multi layered and not stereotypical so I ask you and I try to stay away from characters that are more caricature and that doesn't need to be propped up by stereotypes in order.

Marie

Sorry yeah, well I think about take.

Marie

Orange is the new black for example there were some Latinas that were kind of that stereotype, but then there were others that were really richly complex.

It did.

Veronica

Didn't watch the show so.

Marie

She can't talk about it.

Veronica

Yeah, yeah, I can't talk about it and that's.

Veronica

One of the great things about I think the last few years is there has been.

Veronica

An increase of Latinos on TV or shows that include Tina.

Veronica

The characters.

Veronica

There was a short lived series Vida on one of the apps on Stars, which was super complex.

Veronica

And amazing, and it broke my heart when stars ended it.

Veronica

Netflix is a couple of great shows on my block is coming back and there's another one that I can't remember off the top of my head right now that centers on the Latino community and characters.

Veronica

The complexity of our lives that doesn't require stereotypes to.

Veronica

With the narrative board.

Marie

Yeah, have you seen the reboot of one data time?

Veronica

Oh my God, yes.

Marie

Yes, I love that I grew up watching one day at a time, but I love the reboot even better.

Veronica

Umm, that was one of my favorite shows.

Well, I know.

Marie

You two are young feminists.

Veronica

The kid.

Marie

Elves watching that show right?

Marie

I thought that they brought it back on another channel at one point.

Veronica

But yes, yes Netflix had cancelled it and then they brought it back on pop, which would then network that brought us Shitz Creek.

Marie

Oh, OK.

Veronica

Ah, CBS tried to move it.

Veronica

CBS probably owns pop and so they try to move it to CBS.

Veronica

And it didn't.

Veronica

Catch on it was also during the pandemic.

Veronica

They probably just and invest in it well enough, Joe.

Veronica

I want to see where Penelope goes.

Marie

Yes, I know.

Marie

I hope that they don't give up on it entirely, but the other thing is, I'm curious about whether you're excited about the reboot of West Side Story.

Veronica

I'm curious about.

Marie

It me too.

Veronica

It's one of those stories it's problematic.

Marie

Uh-huh yeah.

Veronica

Setting level from its origin story, but I love.

Marie

Music yeah, and then the idea that that Rita Moreno is in it too.

Marie

I saw in the trailer that's a classic example of Natalie Wood playing Maria, you know, so hopefully it'll be better represented.

Right?

Marie

But then I know that there were some challenges with the in the heights musical as well.

Marie

So yeah, exactly.

Marie

I mean, Hollywood doesn't know.

Veronica

I think it's perfect you.

Veronica

Can't enjoy what you enjoy.

Marie

Exactly exactly, yeah?

Veronica

Quickly with a critical lab.

Marie

Exactly, we're always learning.

Marie

I mean, I, I think that Lin-manuel Miranda had a really great response to that.

Marie

You know, it's like, yeah, we, we didn't do this entirely, right?

Marie

I mean he owned it, so that's good, but we have to improve wherever we can.

Marie

So do you have any specific anecdotes that you'd like to share about the way you've helped young women break into stem?

Veronica

Fields I try to go at it by.

Veronica

Starting where they are so I don't come in and say you need to be a scientist because XY and Z, as in what their interests are, where that might lie.

Veronica

One of my classic stories I like to say is I just talking to a high school girl a few years ago and she was like I don't need science 'cause I'm gonna design my own makeup line.

Veronica

I was like.

Veronica

That is also.

It's all science.

Veronica

Yeah, or I don't need science 'cause I'm going to be a model.

Veronica

I was like.

Veronica

Well, that's probably not going to last very long.

Veronica

Or if you look at every successful model they're leveraging that platform to do something else, which is usually ends up in perfumer makeups, and so you know having a good science background.

Veronica

Gives you something.

Veronica

If you fall.

Veronica

Back into science you're sad.

Marie

Yeah, that's a great example.

Marie

From what you've seen in your research and the relationships that you developed, can you describe the ideal company for us?

Marie

Just dream it up.

Marie

What would it look?

Veronica

Like Oh my goodness, ideal company.

Veronica

I think every morning you come in and there's some fresh croissants waiting for you and wonderful coffee.

Veronica

You have great benefits.

Veronica

Everyone knows what everyone else is making, so there's great pay equity there.

Veronica

It's collaborative.

Veronica

I don't want to think that companies are families.

Veronica

That's not what I.

Marie

Yeah, no, I don't like that either.

Veronica

I want people to.

Veronica

Have voice and how work is done even if you have to maintain some sort of hierarchy so decisions are made.

Veronica

If everything consensus, nothing after should happen.

Veronica

Respect all around for everyone humanity in life.

Marie

And maybe a leadership that represents the population or something you know.

Marie

Percentage wise.

Marie

Yeah, great.

Marie

I see you're at Dar Williams.

Veronica

I am.

Marie

Which is she's kind.

Marie

Of a little obscure.

Marie

So how did you discover that about me that I liked are Williams?

Veronica

So my Dar Williams origin story is that I went to the feminist Expo in 2000, so the feminist majority held a conference in 2000 and she was playing and that is actually a conference.

Veronica

That was where I first met my best friend with Jennifer Pozner.

Veronica

We knew each other online for a couple of years and we first met in person there.

Veronica

Dar was playing and I had never heard of her, and Jenn was like you need to listen to this woman.

Veronica

I've heard her you're gonna love her and I have been in love with Dar Williamson.

Marie

Yeah, I've seen her in concert so many times.

Veronica

I tried to see her every time she rolls.

Veronica

Into Chicago.

Marie

Yes, me too.

Marie

In fact, she's coming to Portland in November.

Marie

I think Portland, as a city is very science positive so.

Marie

So we have masks required in all indoor spaces, so hopefully that'll fill go ahead.

Veronica

I've seen her many times I've met her.

Marie

I've done the yeah.

Veronica

Me too many times.

Veronica

And she's just always so sweet.

Me too.

Marie

I know she's amazing and well, I was so delighted about my middle son went off to college this fall and he's at Wesleyan, which then I discovered.

Marie

That's where Darwin.

Veronica

No such great stories about Wesley ended.

Marie

Because, and I think I didn't really.

Marie

I mean, I think I'd heard of Wesleyan, but I you know, it's on we're out of the West Coast and it's on the east.

Marie

Princeton, but yeah, I was so excited to discover that.

Marie

So I played my son that song.

Marie

You know the song she sings about her boyfriend being in the hemp liberation leaf.

Marie

Like like this must be about Wesleyan.

So funny.

Veronica

Very much. She's just lovely.

Marie

Cool and do you have any Latina music recommendations that you want to share with?

Whoa, off the top of.

Veronica

My head, I don't it's.

Veronica

Like now, I'm just like all in.

Veronica

My head that was our millions you do.

Marie

And put you on the spot.

Marie

I know one that I can think of that I really like is Tish Hinojos a?

Marie

Yes, she's really good, but she's not very well known, really, right?

Marie

So well that I can think of off.

Marie

The top of my head, I think that.

Veronica

One of the.

Veronica

Things that is talking about like hidden gem.

Veronica

It's more of like a secret is that Linda?

Veronica

Onset is Latina.

Marie

Oh, really.

Veronica

Ah, and so people talk to think about her.

Veronica

When you think about goes Latina music, so she's the queen of that.

Marie

She is and she is Latina.

Marie

Have you heard Joan Baez is Spanish album?

Marie

Not it's very obscure, hard to get a hold up, but you.

Marie

I'm sure you can find it on Spotify now, but it's called gracias La Vida so really get out on my recommended.

Marie

If you like folk.

Marie

Music as I assume.

Veronica

OK I love.

Marie

You do yes yes yes yes yes.

Well so.

Marie

So my final question, Veronica, is what advice do you have for people who want to create?

Marie

Companies that care.

Veronica

Put your people first as opposed to profits.

Veronica

People on planet first.

Veronica

If you manage and direct and craft from that space, I think that you're gonna have great success and we don't need companies that look like Amazon that just dominate successes and have to be domination.

Marie

Is there anything else you'd like to say to our listeners?

Veronica

So I also have a podcast called the Feminist Agenda.

Veronica

Oh, you can find that on anchor or find me on Twitter and Instagram.

Veronica

At Feministing cats, I took a little break over the summer, but hopefully by the time this who runs, there'll be plenty of new episodes or winter look.

Marie

I'll check that out.

Marie

Have you ever listened to the podcast?

Marie

The guilty feminist that is out of the UK and I recommend it started out as a show, but I think that in the pandemic I don't know that I don't think they're still doing the show and they start out each episode by saying.

Veronica

No I have.

Marie

I'm a feminist, but and then having a confession, the host is her name is Deborah Frances White.

Marie

She loves Jon Hamm, so often has to do something with Jon Hamm.

Marie

Like I'm a feminist, but if Jon Hamm told me to do such and such, I do it a second or whatever.

Marie

So it's very fun, so I haven't listened to it recently, but I recommend it and I'm going to check yours out too.

OK.

Marie

Well, this has just been a pleasure to get to know you, Veronica, I hope we get to talk again in the future.

Veronica

Definitely, let's do this again.

Marie

Thanks so much.

Marie

Have a great day.

Veronica

You too.

Veronica is doing such outstanding work in helping young people jump on the STEM train, especially students of color. I enjoyed our discussion about music and entertainment…it’s not often I find another person who is obsessed with Dar Williams!

Thanks for listening to Companies That Care. If you like today's episode, check out our other episodes and subscribe. And don’t forget to contact me if you’d like a 30-minute communications consultation. Our music is by jazz pianist Jonathan Swanson. This podcast is brought to you by Fertile Ground Communications.